I don't think i hate F2P i think i dislike the people playing F2P games for free.
If i play a F2P game for free i am a Leech i can only play because other people are paying my share for me.
I do not like that at all i want to pay for myself and if i could not afford that u should not waste my time gaming anyways.
Sure i can pay in a F2P game but suddenly i am paying for Leeches and if i have to give to charity i can think of hundreds of better causes than to enable a Leech to play a game.
Obviously without those "leeches" the world would be emptier. Every single online game in existence NEEDS a critical mass of users, be it 100 or 1000. You need to get that into your thick skulls. Everybody benefits the game. That leech you speak of is more than likely to pull longer hours than you do, do more group content, clear more tasks and/or bosses. It's so intertwined. I'm sorry you are so shortsighted to see it.
This (the critical mass) is one of the reasons your favorite P2P titles go F2P.
That's conjecture.
Early games had a "critical mass" as you say but that number was much lower than we see now. And there were no issues with finding people to play with or to inhabit the world during the heights of those games.
Whether or not those free players are actually adding value is really conjecture.
How are people even identifying these people as leeches at all. In games like eve that sell plex if these so called leeches weren't there to buy the plex with in game money there would be far fewer players and ccp would make much less money.
It's not as simple as this group pays and this group leeches. there's a whole symbiotic relationship that is far more complex than most people give it credit. Most of the I hate such-in-such comes from people who intentionally simplify it down into something they can easily hate.
I don't think i hate F2P i think i dislike the people playing F2P games for free.
If i play a F2P game for free i am a Leech i can only play because other people are paying my share for me.
I do not like that at all i want to pay for myself and if i could not afford that u should not waste my time gaming anyways.
Sure i can pay in a F2P game but suddenly i am paying for Leeches and if i have to give to charity i can think of hundreds of better causes than to enable a Leech to play a game.
Obviously without those "leeches" the world would be emptier. Every single online game in existence NEEDS a critical mass of users, be it 100 or 1000. You need to get that into your thick skulls. Everybody benefits the game. That leech you speak of is more than likely to pull longer hours than you do, do more group content, clear more tasks and/or bosses. It's so intertwined. I'm sorry you are so shortsighted to see it.
This (the critical mass) is one of the reasons your favorite P2P titles go F2P.
You might be right but that doesn't change the fact that i don't like Leeches and i could not be one myself cause i still have some pride left.
F2P is a bubble it will burst once there are too many leeches and if you see how things changed over the last 20 years it seems to be just a matter of time till Leeches is all that will be left.
It doesn't matter how much you tell yourself that you matter you just don't.
A company cares about money and they rather have 2000 paying customers than 200 million Leeches.
I don't think i hate F2P i think i dislike the people playing F2P games for free.
If i play a F2P game for free i am a Leech i can only play because other people are paying my share for me.
I do not like that at all i want to pay for myself and if i could not afford that u should not waste my time gaming anyways.
Sure i can pay in a F2P game but suddenly i am paying for Leeches and if i have to give to charity i can think of hundreds of better causes than to enable a Leech to play a game.
Obviously without those "leeches" the world would be emptier. Every single online game in existence NEEDS a critical mass of users, be it 100 or 1000. You need to get that into your thick skulls. Everybody benefits the game. That leech you speak of is more than likely to pull longer hours than you do, do more group content, clear more tasks and/or bosses. It's so intertwined. I'm sorry you are so shortsighted to see it.
This (the critical mass) is one of the reasons your favorite P2P titles go F2P.
That's conjecture.
Early games had a "critical mass" as you say but that number was much lower than we see now. And there were no issues with finding people to play with or to inhabit the world during the heights of those games.
Whether or not those free players are actually adding value is really conjecture.
Early games IMO weren't designed to me as massive. Its the norm now for a single server to be able to have few thousand players on. In MU Onlne ppl there couldn't be more than 150 players on a single map if memory serves me right. I can't even imagine Ultima Online displaying 200 players on the same zone, nowadays we have generic massive PvP fights with over 200 players. Progress certainly increased the need for "things to do in-game", group activities, larger worlds that need to be populated!
Well, in lineage 2 you routinely had 200+ people in sieges or in cities and it wasn't really that big a deal. I believe at one point the US servers had 90k people (I remember reading this in some report). Certianly not a huge amount of people.
I wonder if game companies were to design their games around having less people and smaller budgets but people who really want to be a part of the game, if they would be more financially viable.
Goes back to a story from a professor in a University where I used to work.
the professor had a studio of students when he started out but lamented that he had high turnover and that the students were never very good.
Because of this he spent a lot of time getting new students and teaching a lot of students when he wanted/needed more time for his career.
His old teacher told him to raise his rates. The idea being that the serious students would stay and that those who weren't serious wouldn't bother.
and it worked. He had less students but they stayed much longer and he had more time to attend to his career.
I sometimes think that if game companies worked on having a smaller but more engaged player base that they would have a more reliable stream of money coming in and a more stable community.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I don't think i hate F2P i think i dislike the people playing F2P games for free.
If i play a F2P game for free i am a Leech i can only play because other people are paying my share for me.
I do not like that at all i want to pay for myself and if i could not afford that u should not waste my time gaming anyways.
Sure i can pay in a F2P game but suddenly i am paying for Leeches and if i have to give to charity i can think of hundreds of better causes than to enable a Leech to play a game.
Obviously without those "leeches" the world would be emptier. Every single online game in existence NEEDS a critical mass of users, be it 100 or 1000. You need to get that into your thick skulls. Everybody benefits the game. That leech you speak of is more than likely to pull longer hours than you do, do more group content, clear more tasks and/or bosses. It's so intertwined. I'm sorry you are so shortsighted to see it.
This (the critical mass) is one of the reasons your favorite P2P titles go F2P.
That's conjecture.
Early games had a "critical mass" as you say but that number was much lower than we see now. And there were no issues with finding people to play with or to inhabit the world during the heights of those games.
Whether or not those free players are actually adding value is really conjecture.
How are people even identifying these people as leeches at all. In games like eve that sell plex if these so called leeches weren't there to buy the plex with in game money there would be far fewer players and ccp would make much less money.
It's not as simple as this group pays and this group leeches. there's a whole symbiotic relationship that is far more complex than most people give it credit. Most of the I hate such-in-such comes from people who intentionally simplify it down into something they can easily hate.
Just because you are grinding in-game currency to buy a plex doesn't change the fact that someone else is using their money to pay for your game time.
You should just say thank-you to the people willing to support the game so you can enjoy it for free.
I only have a limited budget for games per month. And i want the maximum possible fun out of it. FTP does not offer the same fun for the same money then good PTP games do.
I want to delve into a GAME world and FORGET about my stressfull RL for a while. A shop button hovering over my screen does not help that. Let alone the games like SWtoR that even give you a popup for every damn ingame activity like "you could also just fork over 5 bucks, you know?!".
Also i like to compare my gaming achivements with others. You know, that is something we have been doing for like 30+ years now at least. Knowing you can just buy those just diminishes the fun.
I do like the idea of being able to test a game out without upfront investment. THAT is the only positive point about FTP. Nothing a demo or something like the WoW-System would not solve as well tho.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
I don't think i hate F2P i think i dislike the people playing F2P games for free.
If i play a F2P game for free i am a Leech i can only play because other people are paying my share for me.
I do not like that at all i want to pay for myself and if i could not afford that u should not waste my time gaming anyways.
Sure i can pay in a F2P game but suddenly i am paying for Leeches and if i have to give to charity i can think of hundreds of better causes than to enable a Leech to play a game.
Obviously without those "leeches" the world would be emptier. Every single online game in existence NEEDS a critical mass of users, be it 100 or 1000. You need to get that into your thick skulls. Everybody benefits the game. That leech you speak of is more than likely to pull longer hours than you do, do more group content, clear more tasks and/or bosses. It's so intertwined. I'm sorry you are so shortsighted to see it.
This (the critical mass) is one of the reasons your favorite P2P titles go F2P.
That's conjecture.
Early games had a "critical mass" as you say but that number was much lower than we see now. And there were no issues with finding people to play with or to inhabit the world during the heights of those games.
Whether or not those free players are actually adding value is really conjecture.
How are people even identifying these people as leeches at all. In games like eve that sell plex if these so called leeches weren't there to buy the plex with in game money there would be far fewer players and ccp would make much less money.
It's not as simple as this group pays and this group leeches. there's a whole symbiotic relationship that is far more complex than most people give it credit. Most of the I hate such-in-such comes from people who intentionally simplify it down into something they can easily hate.
Just because you are grinding in-game currency to buy a plex doesn't change the fact that someone else is using their money to pay for your game time.
You should just say thank-you to the people willing to support the game so you can enjoy it for free.
You didn't have to make a post to point out just how far the point when over your head.
I like how at the same time F2P games are too expensive and filled with leeches that don't spend anything.
To be true I have only play MMORPGs with a box price attached and never completely free to play but I have played good games without a box price like DOTA2 and LoL.
On average I spend less per year in a MMORPG without a sub - around half.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I didn't read all the replies to your thread so I don't know If someone has said this or not.
I dont hate f2p games. I don't like the m and choose not to play them. What I hate is all the f2p people clogging up all the forums trying to explain why every game should be free to play.
The reason people dislike them is because some games bascally force you to massivly cash shop if you want to compete or even do pve at a higher level. Wartune for example is a prime target for this, vip, resources, removed cooldown timers and such, mounts with stats the stack and various other things all can put a hardcore cash shopper WAY above others, and there is no way to catch up unless you spend a ton. It uses a battle rating system to generally gauge your power, so its quite easy to tell a casher or someone who spent months at that level farming to get that battle rating. Yes, wartune is just a low budget flash mmorpg, but this type of f2p cash shoppage can be in other higher budget titles as well.
One of the best examples of a good f2p title in recent memory would be Marvel Heros, other than bank space you can pretty much earn most things by just playing the game, with the option to buy it if your impatient. Also cash shoppers have no real advantages over someone who doesn't cash shop, this is the main thing why I consider it a good example. Too many f2p games put things behind a paywall, especally anything to do with upgrading gear and such. Like in Aura Kingdom, good luck getting something to +20 without massive cash shopping, you could do it with gold (the scrolls from cash shop are tradeable) but it can take months or even a year with how many scrolls you need, to upgrade anything past +9 you need scrolls that are rare main story rewards (usually 1-2 per zone), or all cash shop, they do not drop in game.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
I really dont get teh f2p hate either...For some reason, many here feel forced to spend every dime in the cash shop....To be honest, I never even look in the cash shop in a f2p game...I've tried hundreds of f2p games that I never would ahve seen if they were p2p....I dont see how so many here can want every game to be p2p.....Also I dont buy into the myth that p2p=great game and f2p=crap....It just isnt true in most cases.
I see some confusion here on the forums so let me clarify why F2P is the best thing that happened to this genre.
I"ve been part of, experienced and played/enjoyed many MMO's without spending a cent, regardless of what type of cash shop they have. That itself is the greatest reason why I cannot "hate" F2P MMO's, but on the contrary if I see a MMO demanding upfront fee or a monthly fee, expansion fee or all of those thing to be played and on top has some cash shop that a F2P MMO would incorporate (which we've recently start to see more and more) is one of the main reasons I stay away from those MMO's.
So, if there is anyone here who hates F2P (regardless how it's implemented) simply put he/she hates having the choice/opportunity to enjoy many not just MMO's but other types of games out there. I would gladly pay top $ for a quality product, but to see a company damaging it's game for the price of receiving more revenue in the short run from whatever playerbase it has is one of the reasons many games end up badly.
Finally, F2P is one of the best ways to advertise your product/game with a potential to attract a huge audience (if it's a great game). League of Legends is just one example of that and the amount of players enjoy it thanks to being F2P is enormous. I dislike MOBA's and never played it, but I have to aknowledge that reality and overall how beneficial F2P is to us gamers in general.
And how are people suppose to get paid for their work [mod edit]?
I see some confusion here on the forums so let me clarify why F2P is the best thing that happened to this genre.
I"ve been part of, experienced and played/enjoyed many MMO's without spending a cent, regardless of what type of cash shop they have. That itself is the greatest reason why I cannot "hate" F2P MMO's, but on the contrary if I see a MMO demanding upfront fee or a monthly fee, expansion fee or all of those thing to be played and on top has some cash shop that a F2P MMO would incorporate (which we've recently start to see more and more) is one of the main reasons I stay away from those MMO's.
So, if there is anyone here who hates F2P (regardless how it's implemented) simply put he/she hates having the choice/opportunity to enjoy many not just MMO's but other types of games out there. I would gladly pay top $ for a quality product, but to see a company damaging it's game for the price of receiving more revenue in the short run from whatever playerbase it has is one of the reasons many games end up badly.
Finally, F2P is one of the best ways to advertise your product/game with a potential to attract a huge audience (if it's a great game). League of Legends is just one example of that and the amount of players enjoy it thanks to being F2P is enormous. I dislike MOBA's and never played it, but I have to aknowledge that reality and overall how beneficial F2P is to us gamers in general.
And how are people suppose to get paid for their work [mod edit]?
I don't think i hate F2P i think i dislike the people playing F2P games for free.
If i play a F2P game for free i am a Leech i can only play because other people are paying my share for me.
I do not like that at all i want to pay for myself and if i could not afford that u should not waste my time gaming anyways.
Sure i can pay in a F2P game but suddenly i am paying for Leeches and if i have to give to charity i can think of hundreds of better causes than to enable a Leech to play a game.
Obviously without those "leeches" the world would be emptier. Every single online game in existence NEEDS a critical mass of users, be it 100 or 1000. You need to get that into your thick skulls. Everybody benefits the game. That leech you speak of is more than likely to pull longer hours than you do, do more group content, clear more tasks and/or bosses. It's so intertwined. I'm sorry you are so shortsighted to see it.
This (the critical mass) is one of the reasons your favorite P2P titles go F2P.
That's conjecture.
Early games had a "critical mass" as you say but that number was much lower than we see now. And there were no issues with finding people to play with or to inhabit the world during the heights of those games.
Whether or not those free players are actually adding value is really conjecture.
How are people even identifying these people as leeches at all. In games like eve that sell plex if these so called leeches weren't there to buy the plex with in game money there would be far fewer players and ccp would make much less money.
It's not as simple as this group pays and this group leeches. there's a whole symbiotic relationship that is far more complex than most people give it credit. Most of the I hate such-in-such comes from people who intentionally simplify it down into something they can easily hate.
Just because you are grinding in-game currency to buy a plex doesn't change the fact that someone else is using their money to pay for your game time.
You should just say thank-you to the people willing to support the game so you can enjoy it for free.
If we are going to call each other names, I could call you a lazy freaking bum. After all you don't buy the PLEX out of charity. You mostly buy it because you need them moneyz. Stop being so selfish.
I don't think i hate F2P i think i dislike the people playing F2P games for free.
If i play a F2P game for free i am a Leech i can only play because other people are paying my share for me.
I do not like that at all i want to pay for myself and if i could not afford that u should not waste my time gaming anyways.
Sure i can pay in a F2P game but suddenly i am paying for Leeches and if i have to give to charity i can think of hundreds of better causes than to enable a Leech to play a game.
Obviously without those "leeches" the world would be emptier. Every single online game in existence NEEDS a critical mass of users, be it 100 or 1000. You need to get that into your thick skulls. Everybody benefits the game. That leech you speak of is more than likely to pull longer hours than you do, do more group content, clear more tasks and/or bosses. It's so intertwined. I'm sorry you are so shortsighted to see it.
This (the critical mass) is one of the reasons your favorite P2P titles go F2P.
That's conjecture.
Early games had a "critical mass" as you say but that number was much lower than we see now. And there were no issues with finding people to play with or to inhabit the world during the heights of those games.
Whether or not those free players are actually adding value is really conjecture.
Early games IMO weren't designed to me as massive. Its the norm now for a single server to be able to have few thousand players on. In MU Onlne ppl there couldn't be more than 150 players on a single map if memory serves me right. I can't even imagine Ultima Online displaying 200 players on the same zone, nowadays we have generic massive PvP fights with over 200 players. Progress certainly increased the need for "things to do in-game", group activities, larger worlds that need to be populated!
Well, in lineage 2 you routinely had 200+ people in sieges or in cities and it wasn't really that big a deal. I believe at one point the US servers had 90k people (I remember reading this in some report). Certianly not a huge amount of people.
I wonder if game companies were to design their games around having less people and smaller budgets but people who really want to be a part of the game, if they would be more financially viable.
Goes back to a story from a professor in a University where I used to work.
the professor had a studio of students when he started out but lamented that he had high turnover and that the students were never very good.
Because of this he spent a lot of time getting new students and teaching a lot of students when he wanted/needed more time for his career.
His old teacher told him to raise his rates. The idea being that the serious students would stay and that those who weren't serious wouldn't bother.
and it worked. He had less students but they stayed much longer and he had more time to attend to his career.
I sometimes think that if game companies worked on having a smaller but more engaged player base that they would have a more reliable stream of money coming in and a more stable community.
My friend, I spent 8 years of my life in Lineage 2. My childhood gamer had grown up with it. I know what the game is capable of and that was the point I was making. The game needed critical mass and went F2P after the Xth server merger. Yet at some point it rivaled WoW in subs.
And yeah idk, more engaging worlds would benefit everyone I guess, but in the spirit of "you can't please all crowds" I'm 200% certain that there will be crybabies shouting how tiny the world is, forgetting the fact that even in WoW they probably visit less than 10 zones at endgame. Devs are going the all american way - the bigger the better. Which is not bad but at some point its a waste of time.
I see some confusion here on the forums so let me clarify why F2P is the best thing that happened to this genre.
I"ve been part of, experienced and played/enjoyed many MMO's without spending a cent, regardless of what type of cash shop they have. That itself is the greatest reason why I cannot "hate" F2P MMO's, but on the contrary if I see a MMO demanding upfront fee or a monthly fee, expansion fee or all of those thing to be played and on top has some cash shop that a F2P MMO would incorporate (which we've recently start to see more and more) is one of the main reasons I stay away from those MMO's.
So, if there is anyone here who hates F2P (regardless how it's implemented) simply put he/she hates having the choice/opportunity to enjoy many not just MMO's but other types of games out there. I would gladly pay top $ for a quality product, but to see a company damaging it's game for the price of receiving more revenue in the short run from whatever playerbase it has is one of the reasons many games end up badly.
Finally, F2P is one of the best ways to advertise your product/game with a potential to attract a huge audience (if it's a great game). League of Legends is just one example of that and the amount of players enjoy it thanks to being F2P is enormous. I dislike MOBA's and never played it, but I have to aknowledge that reality and overall how beneficial F2P is to us gamers in general.
And how are people suppose to get paid for their work [mod edit]?
You never heard of whales?
I'm not a fish&chipper so don't know what you mean by whales.
I see some confusion here on the forums so let me clarify why F2P is the best thing that happened to this genre.
I"ve been part of, experienced and played/enjoyed many MMO's without spending a cent, regardless of what type of cash shop they have. That itself is the greatest reason why I cannot "hate" F2P MMO's, but on the contrary if I see a MMO demanding upfront fee or a monthly fee, expansion fee or all of those thing to be played and on top has some cash shop that a F2P MMO would incorporate (which we've recently start to see more and more) is one of the main reasons I stay away from those MMO's.
So, if there is anyone here who hates F2P (regardless how it's implemented) simply put he/she hates having the choice/opportunity to enjoy many not just MMO's but other types of games out there. I would gladly pay top $ for a quality product, but to see a company damaging it's game for the price of receiving more revenue in the short run from whatever playerbase it has is one of the reasons many games end up badly.
Finally, F2P is one of the best ways to advertise your product/game with a potential to attract a huge audience (if it's a great game). League of Legends is just one example of that and the amount of players enjoy it thanks to being F2P is enormous. I dislike MOBA's and never played it, but I have to aknowledge that reality and overall how beneficial F2P is to us gamers in general.
And how are people suppose to get paid for their work [mod edit]?
You never heard of whales?
I'm not a fish&chipper so don't know what you mean by whales.
May be you have heard of google? Put in "whales" and "MMO" and see what you get.
I see some confusion here on the forums so let me clarify why F2P is the best thing that happened to this genre.
I"ve been part of, experienced and played/enjoyed many MMO's without spending a cent, regardless of what type of cash shop they have.
And how are people suppose to get paid for their work [mod edit]?
You never heard of whales?
I'm not a fish&chipper so don't know what you mean by whales.
You ask how are people supposed to get paid for their work? Simple, by making a product I see worthy to spend $ on. This is where it pays off to be a veteran in the genre and general in gaming. It's evident that the "PvP" battle lies between gamers and game makers. Gamers want worthy games they would see themself playing, game makers want their $.
On the contrary, voting with my wallet and not spending $ carelessly is one of the key ways I'll eventually get the game I'll see myself playing in the long run and supporting it. Those who've failed to take $ from my wallet should stick on targeting a different audience or leave the market if they fail to attract it.
I still am avid gamer who plays for a significant time through the week. When my choices are between mediocre P2P/B2P and F2P game, I'll always go for the F2P. I'm already aware that all these games are "fillers" until the next X game. Path of Exile was one of those filler games for me last and this year. Now it's another F2P MMO until the new leagues come or might stick to the current one for the remaining of the year.
It works well for me and I've saved tons of $ over the last 3½ years. Gratz to DCUO for being the last new MMO that has took $ from my wallet and if one day a great MMO indeed comes on my doorsteps I would gladly pay top $ to fully enjoy and support it. It's why many times over the last couple years I've choose to spend more $ on World of Wacraft that it was worth it, but I supported that game as much as I could for the things has done. Sadly, times are changing and there is a very good chance WOW: WoD will be the first expansion I won't be buying on launch.
I see some confusion here on the forums so let me clarify why F2P is the best thing that happened to this genre.
I"ve been part of, experienced and played/enjoyed many MMO's without spending a cent, regardless of what type of cash shop they have. That itself is the greatest reason why I cannot "hate" F2P MMO's, but on the contrary if I see a MMO demanding upfront fee or a monthly fee, expansion fee or all of those thing to be played and on top has some cash shop that a F2P MMO would incorporate (which we've recently start to see more and more) is one of the main reasons I stay away from those MMO's.
So, if there is anyone here who hates F2P (regardless how it's implemented) simply put he/she hates having the choice/opportunity to enjoy many not just MMO's but other types of games out there. I would gladly pay top $ for a quality product, but to see a company damaging it's game for the price of receiving more revenue in the short run from whatever playerbase it has is one of the reasons many games end up badly.
Finally, F2P is one of the best ways to advertise your product/game with a potential to attract a huge audience (if it's a great game). League of Legends is just one example of that and the amount of players enjoy it thanks to being F2P is enormous. I dislike MOBA's and never played it, but I have to aknowledge that reality and overall how beneficial F2P is to us gamers in general.
This post is representative of the entire problem with the MMO industry right now. Have you not been around the past 8-10 years? The genre has degenerated into a horrible pile of crap, literally hundreds of F2P mmos that come and go without making even the slightest of waves, alongside a few high budget games which ultimately were mediocre at best. This is all evidenced by the fact that none of these games has managed to retain more than about 15-25% of its initial sales figures as a playerbase, and most the times is worst than that.
Lets not mention there isnt a single example of a (monetarily) succesful F2P mmo that wasnt a subscription game first that later converted to a F2P.
Posting revenue figures as proof of success is also not valid. Just because there are a bunch of people out there who aren't capable of realizing they're being fleeced and continue to let themselves fall into these traps does not mean these games are successful.
This is also an issue with these last couple generation of entitled gamers. They actually believe, like in their hearts, that they DESERVE to be able to play games for free. They really believe this.
I also found your comment about "choice" as being particularly hilarious. Thats like saying i have the choice of getting stabbed with a butte knife, a steak knife, a hunting knife, or an ice pick. Yeah, i've got LOTS of choices there, the problem is, i'm still getting stabbed.
Most of the current crop of MMO gamers *think* these are good games because they havent experienced what a good MMO really is. So all they have to base it on is whats available now. Its like saying that Panda Express is the best chinese food in the world, but you have never been to china or a high quality restaurant making authentic chinese cuisine. You can't make that judgement, you don't have the knowledge or experience to do so.
Like many others, i do think *certain* F2P models have their place, specifically in games like League of Legends, or Dota 2.
I do not however see them as a good thing for MMO's and i think the last 8-10 years is all the evidence i need to support that argument.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Posting revenue figures as proof of success is also not valid. Just because there are a bunch of people out there who aren't capable of realizing they're being fleeced and continue to let themselves fall into these traps does not mean these games are successful.
And this is what's wrong with gamers who live in forum fantasy worlds. Millions of people all too stupid see these games for what they really are....as decided by you of course.....sound legit to me.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Posting revenue figures as proof of success is also not valid. Just because there are a bunch of people out there who aren't capable of realizing they're being fleeced and continue to let themselves fall into these traps does not mean these games are successful.
And this is what's wrong with gamers who live in forum fantasy worlds. Millions of people all too stupid see these games for what they really are....as decided by you of course.....sound legit to me.
How many pet rocks have been sold? Friendship bracelets?
How many times have YOU bought a game and found you didnt enjoy it.
Revenue figures are NOT the sole indicator of a game's success as many people in this forum love to constantly use them as such.
For MMO's its about continued retention. And by the way, about 10% of these "millions" of people are paying for YOU to play the game for free. So you're allowing your actions to be dictated by someone else's wallets.
Whats going to happen when that game you love oh so much gets shut down or never gets updated because the people who were paying for you to play moved on?
Edit: Btw, "live in forum fantasy worlds" ?
I spend maybe 2 hours a week on these forums. I have been here for the better part of 4 years and havent even averaged 1 post a day. I hardly call that living in a forum fantasy world.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Comments
How are people even identifying these people as leeches at all. In games like eve that sell plex if these so called leeches weren't there to buy the plex with in game money there would be far fewer players and ccp would make much less money.
It's not as simple as this group pays and this group leeches. there's a whole symbiotic relationship that is far more complex than most people give it credit. Most of the I hate such-in-such comes from people who intentionally simplify it down into something they can easily hate.
You might be right but that doesn't change the fact that i don't like Leeches and i could not be one myself cause i still have some pride left.
F2P is a bubble it will burst once there are too many leeches and if you see how things changed over the last 20 years it seems to be just a matter of time till Leeches is all that will be left.
It doesn't matter how much you tell yourself that you matter you just don't.
A company cares about money and they rather have 2000 paying customers than 200 million Leeches.Well, in lineage 2 you routinely had 200+ people in sieges or in cities and it wasn't really that big a deal. I believe at one point the US servers had 90k people (I remember reading this in some report). Certianly not a huge amount of people.
I wonder if game companies were to design their games around having less people and smaller budgets but people who really want to be a part of the game, if they would be more financially viable.
Goes back to a story from a professor in a University where I used to work.
the professor had a studio of students when he started out but lamented that he had high turnover and that the students were never very good.
Because of this he spent a lot of time getting new students and teaching a lot of students when he wanted/needed more time for his career.
His old teacher told him to raise his rates. The idea being that the serious students would stay and that those who weren't serious wouldn't bother.
and it worked. He had less students but they stayed much longer and he had more time to attend to his career.
I sometimes think that if game companies worked on having a smaller but more engaged player base that they would have a more reliable stream of money coming in and a more stable community.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Just because you are grinding in-game currency to buy a plex doesn't change the fact that someone else is using their money to pay for your game time.
You should just say thank-you to the people willing to support the game so you can enjoy it for free.
Yes, i thank every whale in my heart. Now free fun .. game on!
Well, i do hate FTP for a number of reasons.
I do like the idea of being able to test a game out without upfront investment. THAT is the only positive point about FTP. Nothing a demo or something like the WoW-System would not solve as well tho.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
You didn't have to make a post to point out just how far the point when over your head.
That's not a leech. That's a fair trade.
I like how at the same time F2P games are too expensive and filled with leeches that don't spend anything.
To be true I have only play MMORPGs with a box price attached and never completely free to play but I have played good games without a box price like DOTA2 and LoL.
On average I spend less per year in a MMORPG without a sub - around half.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I didn't read all the replies to your thread so I don't know If someone has said this or not.
I dont hate f2p games. I don't like the m and choose not to play them. What I hate is all the f2p people clogging up all the forums trying to explain why every game should be free to play.
The reason people dislike them is because some games bascally force you to massivly cash shop if you want to compete or even do pve at a higher level. Wartune for example is a prime target for this, vip, resources, removed cooldown timers and such, mounts with stats the stack and various other things all can put a hardcore cash shopper WAY above others, and there is no way to catch up unless you spend a ton. It uses a battle rating system to generally gauge your power, so its quite easy to tell a casher or someone who spent months at that level farming to get that battle rating. Yes, wartune is just a low budget flash mmorpg, but this type of f2p cash shoppage can be in other higher budget titles as well.
One of the best examples of a good f2p title in recent memory would be Marvel Heros, other than bank space you can pretty much earn most things by just playing the game, with the option to buy it if your impatient. Also cash shoppers have no real advantages over someone who doesn't cash shop, this is the main thing why I consider it a good example. Too many f2p games put things behind a paywall, especally anything to do with upgrading gear and such. Like in Aura Kingdom, good luck getting something to +20 without massive cash shopping, you could do it with gold (the scrolls from cash shop are tradeable) but it can take months or even a year with how many scrolls you need, to upgrade anything past +9 you need scrolls that are rare main story rewards (usually 1-2 per zone), or all cash shop, they do not drop in game.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
And how are people suppose to get paid for their work [mod edit]?
You never heard of whales?
If we are going to call each other names, I could call you a lazy freaking bum. After all you don't buy the PLEX out of charity. You mostly buy it because you need them moneyz. Stop being so selfish.
My friend, I spent 8 years of my life in Lineage 2. My childhood gamer had grown up with it. I know what the game is capable of and that was the point I was making. The game needed critical mass and went F2P after the Xth server merger. Yet at some point it rivaled WoW in subs.
And yeah idk, more engaging worlds would benefit everyone I guess, but in the spirit of "you can't please all crowds" I'm 200% certain that there will be crybabies shouting how tiny the world is, forgetting the fact that even in WoW they probably visit less than 10 zones at endgame. Devs are going the all american way - the bigger the better. Which is not bad but at some point its a waste of time.
I'm not a fish&chipper so don't know what you mean by whales.
May be you have heard of google? Put in "whales" and "MMO" and see what you get.
You ask how are people supposed to get paid for their work? Simple, by making a product I see worthy to spend $ on. This is where it pays off to be a veteran in the genre and general in gaming. It's evident that the "PvP" battle lies between gamers and game makers. Gamers want worthy games they would see themself playing, game makers want their $.
On the contrary, voting with my wallet and not spending $ carelessly is one of the key ways I'll eventually get the game I'll see myself playing in the long run and supporting it. Those who've failed to take $ from my wallet should stick on targeting a different audience or leave the market if they fail to attract it.
I still am avid gamer who plays for a significant time through the week. When my choices are between mediocre P2P/B2P and F2P game, I'll always go for the F2P. I'm already aware that all these games are "fillers" until the next X game. Path of Exile was one of those filler games for me last and this year. Now it's another F2P MMO until the new leagues come or might stick to the current one for the remaining of the year.
It works well for me and I've saved tons of $ over the last 3½ years. Gratz to DCUO for being the last new MMO that has took $ from my wallet and if one day a great MMO indeed comes on my doorsteps I would gladly pay top $ to fully enjoy and support it. It's why many times over the last couple years I've choose to spend more $ on World of Wacraft that it was worth it, but I supported that game as much as I could for the things has done. Sadly, times are changing and there is a very good chance WOW: WoD will be the first expansion I won't be buying on launch.
This post is representative of the entire problem with the MMO industry right now. Have you not been around the past 8-10 years? The genre has degenerated into a horrible pile of crap, literally hundreds of F2P mmos that come and go without making even the slightest of waves, alongside a few high budget games which ultimately were mediocre at best. This is all evidenced by the fact that none of these games has managed to retain more than about 15-25% of its initial sales figures as a playerbase, and most the times is worst than that.
Lets not mention there isnt a single example of a (monetarily) succesful F2P mmo that wasnt a subscription game first that later converted to a F2P.
Posting revenue figures as proof of success is also not valid. Just because there are a bunch of people out there who aren't capable of realizing they're being fleeced and continue to let themselves fall into these traps does not mean these games are successful.
This is also an issue with these last couple generation of entitled gamers. They actually believe, like in their hearts, that they DESERVE to be able to play games for free. They really believe this.
I also found your comment about "choice" as being particularly hilarious. Thats like saying i have the choice of getting stabbed with a butte knife, a steak knife, a hunting knife, or an ice pick. Yeah, i've got LOTS of choices there, the problem is, i'm still getting stabbed.
Most of the current crop of MMO gamers *think* these are good games because they havent experienced what a good MMO really is. So all they have to base it on is whats available now. Its like saying that Panda Express is the best chinese food in the world, but you have never been to china or a high quality restaurant making authentic chinese cuisine. You can't make that judgement, you don't have the knowledge or experience to do so.
Like many others, i do think *certain* F2P models have their place, specifically in games like League of Legends, or Dota 2.
I do not however see them as a good thing for MMO's and i think the last 8-10 years is all the evidence i need to support that argument.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
And this is what's wrong with gamers who live in forum fantasy worlds. Millions of people all too stupid see these games for what they really are....as decided by you of course.....sound legit to me.
Elitism is fun.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How many pet rocks have been sold? Friendship bracelets?
How many times have YOU bought a game and found you didnt enjoy it.
Revenue figures are NOT the sole indicator of a game's success as many people in this forum love to constantly use them as such.
For MMO's its about continued retention. And by the way, about 10% of these "millions" of people are paying for YOU to play the game for free. So you're allowing your actions to be dictated by someone else's wallets.
Whats going to happen when that game you love oh so much gets shut down or never gets updated because the people who were paying for you to play moved on?
Edit: Btw, "live in forum fantasy worlds" ?
I spend maybe 2 hours a week on these forums. I have been here for the better part of 4 years and havent even averaged 1 post a day. I hardly call that living in a forum fantasy world.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche