Back when I first played Asheron's Call, I had a friend who made all of her gold by writing poetry for high level people, talking about how badass they were.
They were totally using their out of game skills to earn in game money. They were buying gold with RL work (Skipping the step where you turn RL work to money and then gold).
I also have a couple people in my current guild who do the same thing with art. They draw pictures for people, in trade for gold. RL work, converted directly to gold (Skipping the intermediary money step).
Are those people bad?
To make the issue even more clouded, how about the people I know who trade erotic roleplay for gold? <.<
Back when I first played Asheron's Call, I had a friend who made all of her gold by writing poetry for high level people, talking about how badass they were.
They were totally using their out of game skills to earn in game money. They were buying gold with RL work (Skipping the step where you turn RL work to money and then gold).
I also have a couple people in my current guild who do the same thing with art. They draw pictures for people, in trade for gold. RL work, converted directly to gold (Skipping the intermediary money step).
Are those people bad?
To make the issue even more clouded, how about the people I know who trade erotic roleplay for gold? <.<
You didn't cloud the issue at all. Your .0000000000000001% of the population issue isn't even a factor when it comes to 3rd party gold selling.
I've been thinking since I met gold sellers for the first time many years ago in mmo, mostly mmorpg. Why would anyone buy gold if they can gather it themselves and actually have fun while doing that?
Are gamers have been downgraded that much that they want everything instantly? Or is it only me being jealous of their wallet?
Moreover, gold buyers are the ones who ruined mmo, as they are the main source of income of gold sellers. No buyer, no gold seller, right?
What do you think?
Goldbuyers are people who enjoy a game and find that their time is more valuable than the cash it costs to buy it.
if gold sellers were legit then lack of time to gather money would be an acceptable reason. Unfortunately for them, it is not legit and they get banned. Unfortunately for us, when they buy, the game gets affected by it and we get screwed with stupid economies, gold spammers, and potential hacked accounts.
@Damonville - it seems to be a legitimate question to me. Why is it acceptable to trade something outside the game world for in game currency, but not trade cash? Is it the gold buying that is the issue or the gold selling?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by lizardbones @Damonville - it seems to be a legitimate question to me. Why is it acceptable to trade something outside the game world for in game currency, but not trade cash? Is it the gold buying that is the issue or the gold selling?
If a cop walks past a guy who throws a cigarette butt on the ground and doesn't write him a ticket doesn't it mean he should walk past a terrorist about to blow up a building too ? They're both rights after all right ?
That's the example they were trying to cloud the issue with. It's a silly forum argument to take something no one woud ever give a second thought to and make it out like if you'r eok with that you must be ok with mass murder too!!!
I guess I will toss my opinion on the heap to be burried.
It depends on the design of the game in my opinion. If the gold is sold through a third party then I would say the game is likely not designed with gold buying in mind. If a player is buying gold through a system designed by the developers then I am fine with it.
There is very little skill involved with most MMOs. They require an investment of time spent in the game, or some means outside of the game mechanics themselves such as buying gold to offset the time investment. Somebody that spends more time in the game is likely a better player, but there comes a point in every game where a player spends enough time to be competent. After that the time is an investment to improve things other than the player. I have never purchased third party gold and do not condone it, but I have absolutely no problem with a person using cash to offset the time investment to improve in game aspects when the developers make the game with such a system in mind.
I don't care what people do with their money, But buying gold for a game is kind of weird imo.
Apparently playing the game and earn the ingame gold as intended is not fun for the gold buyers. Then why play that game at all? Especially if its some themepark MMO where goldsinks are the core of a game. If you start buying gold to avoid those goldsinks, then I guess that game is not your kind of game.
For me it is simple, I just avoid games that are have boring gameplay. I will never pay extra to avoid the boring stuff. Because that is plain stupid.
I don't care what people do with their money, But buying gold for a game is kind of weird imo.
Apparently playing the game and earn the ingame gold as intended is not fun for the gold buyers. Then why play that game at all? Especially if its some themepark MMO where goldsinks are the core of a game. If you start buying gold to avoid those goldsinks, then I guess that game is not your kind of game.
For me it is simple, I just avoid games that are have boring gameplay. I will never pay extra to avoid the boring stuff. Because that is plain stupid.
I knew people who were buying characters back in EQ.
There are people who want to play a game, with their friends, but don't have the spare time. They have lots of money though. That's a persona ldecision whether or not people think they can have fun in a game after spending money to skip some parts of it. MMOs have lots of reasons to play it OTHER than the gold grind. Playing with friends is a HUGE part of it, or being part of the later competitive scene.
Originally posted by lizardbones @Damonville - it seems to be a legitimate question to me. Why is it acceptable to trade something outside the game world for in game currency, but not trade cash? Is it the gold buying that is the issue or the gold selling?
If a cop walks past a guy who throws a cigarette butt on the ground and doesn't write him a ticket doesn't it mean he should walk past a terrorist about to blow up a building too ? They're both rights after all right ?
That's the example they were trying to cloud the issue with. It's a silly forum argument to take something no one woud ever give a second thought to and make it out like if you'r eok with that you must be ok with mass murder too!!!
DemonVile - can you please stop with the (very bad) analogies - while not answering the question?
(*Is it okay for DemonVile to use extreme analogies on the forum when this suggests that if, in real life, someone offended DemonVile he would obviously cut their head off and defile the corpse?... see?*)
The point was a good one. I have 'payed' another player in an MMO with in game gold for some art. It is, if you want to look at it that way, Gold Selling?
Gold Selling is also not "illegal". It may be against the ToS of some games - but even that's a bit dodgy really.
The way I read the original question was is a person paying money to get a 'shortcut' in a game a 'loser'?
Well, as NymiethePooh said "It depends on the design of the game in my opinion."
And it doesn't have to be just 3rd party sellers either - is buying a special character in a game like DDO the same thing?
Well, as many have said, why are you playing the game?
Personally, I never buy gold. I like the games I play... often the leveling up is the best part... if they get boring or grindy I leave. But, I do appreciate that the design of some games require that you 'level up' or have 'Ultra gear' to play certain content. And some people like that - but don't like to level up - so are they 'losers' for buying that up front?
That is the point really, as I read it.
To me, if the game is designed so that players are bored with the leveling up but must do so to get to the 'enjoyable' part then that is a problem with the game - not the players.
So, without the howling about Bots, and hackers, and funding crime and credit card fraud.... can you answer the question?
I don't care what people do with their money, But buying gold for a game is kind of weird imo.
Apparently playing the game and earn the ingame gold as intended is not fun for the gold buyers. Then why play that game at all? Especially if its some themepark MMO where goldsinks are the core of a game. If you start buying gold to avoid those goldsinks, then I guess that game is not your kind of game.
For me it is simple, I just avoid games that are have boring gameplay. I will never pay extra to avoid the boring stuff. Because that is plain stupid.
I knew people who were buying characters back in EQ.
There are people who want to play a game, with their friends, but don't have the spare time. They have lots of money though. That's a persona ldecision whether or not people think they can have fun in a game after spending money to skip some parts of it. MMOs have lots of reasons to play it OTHER than the gold grind. Playing with friends is a HUGE part of it, or being part of the later competitive scene.
You are describing what I call a major flaw in the lvl based games. I usually play with the same friends, but we don't always have the same amount of time. For this reason we avoid any MMO that has no solutions for lvl difference. So it has to have at least mentoring options or other ways to deal with lvl difference.
Buying a max character as your first character is just silly.
Buying a max character as your first character is just silly.
I used to think this too - but I'm not sure it applies any more.
What I mean is that the leveling up process in MMOs was something to teach you about your character and what your character's strength and weaknesses are.
But once you have done that once in some MMOs perhaps the value of leveling decreases? Maybe it's because the classes and skills aren't sufficiently different?
Also, maybe it's just me, but aren't MMOs getting easier now? With no real penalty for death - you can afford to spend a week dying with your level 70 char while you learn how to use it?
Originally posted by lizardbones @Damonville - it seems to be a legitimate question to me. Why is it acceptable to trade something outside the game world for in game currency, but not trade cash? Is it the gold buying that is the issue or the gold selling?
If a cop walks past a guy who throws a cigarette butt on the ground and doesn't write him a ticket doesn't it mean he should walk past a terrorist about to blow up a building too ? They're both rights after all right ?
That's the example they were trying to cloud the issue with. It's a silly forum argument to take something no one woud ever give a second thought to and make it out like if you'r eok with that you must be ok with mass murder too!!!
DemonVile - can you please stop with the (very bad) analogies - while not answering the question?
The point was only a good one because it supports what you've already posted. It's an absurd tactic people use on forums to try and confuse an issue. overlookng little things does not mean big things are ok too.
3rd party gold buying supports the industry of hacking accounts etc. ff you think trading poems also supports it..well.....yeah.
The point was only a good one because it supports what you've already posted. It's an absurd tactic people use on forums to try and confuse an issue. overlookng little things does not mean big things are ok too.
3rd party gold buying supports the industry of hacking accounts etc. ff you think trading poems also supports it..well.....yeah.
So, if buying 3rd party gold supports "the industry of hacking accounts" (something I would like to see you show me BTW) doesn't ALL buying gold do the same?
I mean - if you think overlooking the little things makes the big things okay - then you think CCP selling PLEX (as an example?) supports gold selling and then supports hacking?
So CCP supports hacking? I think that's a long stretch... don't you?
And as i said - while I am sure there are immoral gold sellers who do hack - what about the ones that don't?
There are crooked cops too - are you saying they all are? (see - another bad analogy)
The point was only a good one because it supports what you've already posted. It's an absurd tactic people use on forums to try and confuse an issue. overlookng little things does not mean big things are ok too.
3rd party gold buying supports the industry of hacking accounts etc. ff you think trading poems also supports it..well.....yeah.
So, if buying 3rd party gold supports "the industry of hacking accounts" (something I would like to see you show me BTW) doesn't ALL buying gold do the same?
I mean - if you think overlooking the little things makes the big things okay - then you think CCP selling PLEX (as an example?) supports gold selling and then supports hacking?
So CCP supports hacking? I think that's a long stretch... don't you?
And as i said - while I am sure there are immoral gold sellers who do hack - what about the ones that don't?
There are crooked cops too - are you saying they all are? (see - another bad analogy)
what do you think they hack accounts to get ?
and the part in red...I think is a moronic stretch that makes me regret ever even responding to you.
The point was only a good one because it supports what you've already posted. It's an absurd tactic people use on forums to try and confuse an issue. overlookng little things does not mean big things are ok too.
3rd party gold buying supports the industry of hacking accounts etc. ff you think trading poems also supports it..well.....yeah.
So, if buying 3rd party gold supports "the industry of hacking accounts" (something I would like to see you show me BTW) doesn't ALL buying gold do the same?
I mean - if you think overlooking the little things makes the big things okay - then you think CCP selling PLEX (as an example?) supports gold selling and then supports hacking?
So CCP supports hacking? I think that's a long stretch... don't you?
...
what do you think they hack accounts to get ?
and the part in red...I think is a moronic stretch that makes me regret ever even responding to you.
So, rather than provide a logical / well reasoned answer you will imply I am a Moron and refuse to answer huh?
You compared not writing a ticket for litter-bugging to allowing terrorism... is that really somewhere you want to go?
The point was only a good one because it supports what you've already posted. It's an absurd tactic people use on forums to try and confuse an issue. overlookng little things does not mean big things are ok too.
3rd party gold buying supports the industry of hacking accounts etc. ff you think trading poems also supports it..well.....yeah.
So, if buying 3rd party gold supports "the industry of hacking accounts" (something I would like to see you show me BTW) doesn't ALL buying gold do the same?
I mean - if you think overlooking the little things makes the big things okay - then you think CCP selling PLEX (as an example?) supports gold selling and then supports hacking?
So CCP supports hacking? I think that's a long stretch... don't you?
And as i said - while I am sure there are immoral gold sellers who do hack - what about the ones that don't?
There are crooked cops too - are you saying they all are? (see - another bad analogy)
Why would all gold buying support the industry of hacking accounts?
We know hacking is done for gold selling purposes, that has been well documented and stated by many people in the industry many times. What we don't know is how pervasive it is.
We can reasonably believe it is not the companies themselves that are doing the hacking (blizzard, ccp, soe...). Therefore the hacking would be by 3rd party sellers. If you buy gold from a 3rd party seller you don't know where they got the gold from. If they are one of the groups that is doing the hacking then buying gold from them supports the hacking industry.
Buying gold from a site that does not hack does not support the hacking industry and the only people you can be reasonably sure of that is not hacking is the company themselves or through the company processes. Plex is one of these processes. If the person in Eve is selling the gold for plex, they are not making money in RL, therefore there is no profit to them.
Pretty straightforward actually.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Why would all gold buying support the industry of hacking accounts?
We know hacking is done for gold selling purposes, that has been well documented and stated by many people in the industry many times. What we don't know is how pervasive it is.
We can reasonably believe it is not the companies themselves that are doing the hacking (blizzard, ccp, soe...). Therefore the hacking would be by 3rd party sellers. If you buy gold from a 3rd party seller you don't know where they got the gold from. If they are one of the groups that is doing the hacking then buying gold from them supports the hacking industry.
Buying gold from a site that does not hack does not support the hacking industry and the only people you can be reasonably sure of that is not hacking is the company themselves or through the company processes. Plex is one of these processes. If the person in Eve is selling the gold for plex, they are not making money in RL, therefore there is no profit to them.
Pretty straightforward actually.
Okay, that's a fair answer.
The problem I have is this apparent 'proof' that 3rd party Gold Sellers and 'the hacking industry' are supposedly the same thing?
If you could check that the gold was not obtained via 'hacking' then would that satisfy you?
Why would all gold buying support the industry of hacking accounts?
We know hacking is done for gold selling purposes, that has been well documented and stated by many people in the industry many times. What we don't know is how pervasive it is.
We can reasonably believe it is not the companies themselves that are doing the hacking (blizzard, ccp, soe...). Therefore the hacking would be by 3rd party sellers. If you buy gold from a 3rd party seller you don't know where they got the gold from. If they are one of the groups that is doing the hacking then buying gold from them supports the hacking industry.
Buying gold from a site that does not hack does not support the hacking industry and the only people you can be reasonably sure of that is not hacking is the company themselves or through the company processes. Plex is one of these processes. If the person in Eve is selling the gold for plex, they are not making money in RL, therefore there is no profit to them.
Pretty straightforward actually.
Okay, that's a fair answer.
The problem I have is this apparent 'proof' that 3rd party Gold Sellers and 'the hacking industry' are supposedly the same thing?
If you could check that the gold was not obtained via 'hacking' then would that satisfy you?
As it would not be possible to check that it had not been obtained through hacking etc. then its a largely pointless question, of course you could just take the word of the person selling the gold that they hadn't and it's not like they would lie to you or anything
RMT outfits are invariably involved in other illicit and criminal activities, such as hacking. or compromising in some way, players accounts. One thing they are very keen on, is funnily enough, obtaining the gold buyers email address, it makes it easier to hack them later on, but generally any player they can link an email address to, is an opportunity to cash in.
As it would not be possible to check that it had not been obtained through hacking etc. then its a largely pointless question, of course you could just take the word of the person selling the gold that they hadn't and it's not like they would lie to you or anything
RMT outfits are invariably involved in other illicit and criminal activities, such as hacking. or compromising in some way, players accounts. One thing they are very keen on, is funnily enough, obtaining the gold buyers email address, it makes it easier to hack them later on, but generally any player they can link an email address to, is an opportunity to cash in.
Well yes, I agree it would be hard to verify, particularly since there is anonymity to deal with. However I still have an issue with the assertion by so many people that ALL RMT traders are hackers and criminals. But I guess it's hard to prove either way (in this context) But if anyone has any actual figures or studies I would be interested to see the results?
I know that hacked accounts do get stripped and that certainly doesn't help give RMT dealers a good reputation.
As for the email accounts - true. But as I said earlier in this thread - it's a factor of how lazy we are with our passwords
As it would not be possible to check that it had not been obtained through hacking etc. then its a largely pointless question, of course you could just take the word of the person selling the gold that they hadn't and it's not like they would lie to you or anything
RMT outfits are invariably involved in other illicit and criminal activities, such as hacking. or compromising in some way, players accounts. One thing they are very keen on, is funnily enough, obtaining the gold buyers email address, it makes it easier to hack them later on, but generally any player they can link an email address to, is an opportunity to cash in.
Well yes, I agree it would be hard to verify, particularly since there is anonymity to deal with. However I still have an issue with the assertion by so many people that ALL RMT traders are hackers and criminals. But I guess it's hard to prove either way (in this context) But if anyone has any actual figures or studies I would be interested to see the results?
I know that hacked accounts do get stripped and that certainly doesn't help give RMT dealers a good reputation.
As for the email accounts - true. But as I said earlier in this thread - it's a factor of how lazy we are with our passwords
Not blaming users here - but clearly relying on single password type security is not that good.
The factor you miss too though is the number of people who get hacked as a result of Guild Forums.
How many of you use your Game Log in name as your Guild Forum name?
Then how many use the same password for their email account and give that email to the Guild Forum?
It is a good point about passwords, password complexity is a must, not just for the various forums, but and perhaps especially, for your email login.
As for the RMT dealers, if you treat them all as potential hackers then you will rarely be wrong, and its not a safe area to experiment really, for all kinds of reasons, even if it's just the possibility of losing your game account through EULA breaking activities.
As for email accounts, you shouldn't use the same email account to register at a forum, that is also registered for a game, oddly enough, i get all kinds of messages in mine proclaiming to be from Blizzard about my dodgy activities etc in WoW, except, they seem to be sending them to the wrong email address, i also get emails claiming to be from nationwide and barclays, even though i don't bank with them
The internet is rife with scammers, malware distributors and hackers. Don't make things easy for them!
It is a good point about passwords, password complexity is a must, not just for the various forums, but and perhaps especially, for your email login.
....
The internet is rife with scammers, malware distributors and hackers. Don't make things easy for them!
Okay, so having agreed on that.... are people who buy gold (to get gear for example) losers.... other than the fact they are running a risk of dealing with scammers?
If you to avoid playing a game so badly you want to pay money just to avoid doing so, it would probably be worth reconsidering why you're in that game in the first place.
I think it's pretty typical of gamers to take any short cut they can find just to race to the "end" then complain then game is boring and that there's nothing to do.
So being short sighted or doing a little self reflection isn't something these people are really going to fix.
I would also ask what content is so fun that you have to skip to it?
"paying to skip content"
You guys never tire of that strawman, do you?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I understand people who work, who cant play a lot wanting to just buy gold. but it sucks because it ruins games because the spammers have to be total d-bags about it.
if the spammers where not such a-holes it would not be so bad, but they just want to force there garbage on you 24/7, like sending you mails over and over and over.
totally ruins games for me. and I think the only real way to combat it, is for game companies to sell the gold themselves. but you get the idiots who cry about this, and we are stuck with the spammers.
I really see this vicious cycle as one of the main reasons that mmos are dead. companies cant combat the spammers, and it just ruins the game. I think new age gamers are just use to it, but the older gamers are not ok with this garbage.
I use to love mmo games, but now between the hacks and spammers, I have zero urge to play any.
You didn't cloud the issue at all. Your .0000000000000001% of the population issue isn't even a factor when it comes to 3rd party gold selling.
You put way too many 0s in there. Even if only ONE person did it in WoW, it'd be more than .0001%.
And my point was that the problem isn't with gold buyers... but third party gold sellers.
... and that the fact is, people often use their out-of-game skills to get things in-game, no matter HOW much that drives some MMORPG players crazy.
Some people use their RL job -> money -> gold
Some people use their RL skills (Drawing, writing) -> gold
Some people use their ability to have RL sex (If you've never heard of somebody getting a spot in a guild raid group because they are a girlfriend/boyfriend, then consider yourself lucky, but it happens a lot) -> gold
MMORPGs are a social and multiplayer type of game, so they are severely compromised when it comes to 'just earning stuff through gameplay', because people can use their skills from outside of the game to get stuff. And in some MMORPGs, RL money happens to be one of those ways that is endorsed by the game makers.
Comments
So, here's a question for you.
Back when I first played Asheron's Call, I had a friend who made all of her gold by writing poetry for high level people, talking about how badass they were.
They were totally using their out of game skills to earn in game money. They were buying gold with RL work (Skipping the step where you turn RL work to money and then gold).
I also have a couple people in my current guild who do the same thing with art. They draw pictures for people, in trade for gold. RL work, converted directly to gold (Skipping the intermediary money step).
Are those people bad?
To make the issue even more clouded, how about the people I know who trade erotic roleplay for gold? <.<
You didn't cloud the issue at all. Your .0000000000000001% of the population issue isn't even a factor when it comes to 3rd party gold selling.
if gold sellers were legit then lack of time to gather money would be an acceptable reason. Unfortunately for them, it is not legit and they get banned. Unfortunately for us, when they buy, the game gets affected by it and we get screwed with stupid economies, gold spammers, and potential hacked accounts.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If a cop walks past a guy who throws a cigarette butt on the ground and doesn't write him a ticket doesn't it mean he should walk past a terrorist about to blow up a building too ? They're both rights after all right ?
That's the example they were trying to cloud the issue with. It's a silly forum argument to take something no one woud ever give a second thought to and make it out like if you'r eok with that you must be ok with mass murder too!!!
I guess I will toss my opinion on the heap to be burried.
It depends on the design of the game in my opinion. If the gold is sold through a third party then I would say the game is likely not designed with gold buying in mind. If a player is buying gold through a system designed by the developers then I am fine with it.
There is very little skill involved with most MMOs. They require an investment of time spent in the game, or some means outside of the game mechanics themselves such as buying gold to offset the time investment. Somebody that spends more time in the game is likely a better player, but there comes a point in every game where a player spends enough time to be competent. After that the time is an investment to improve things other than the player. I have never purchased third party gold and do not condone it, but I have absolutely no problem with a person using cash to offset the time investment to improve in game aspects when the developers make the game with such a system in mind.
I blog sometimes. http://kibitzknook.blogspot.com/
I don't care what people do with their money, But buying gold for a game is kind of weird imo.
Apparently playing the game and earn the ingame gold as intended is not fun for the gold buyers. Then why play that game at all? Especially if its some themepark MMO where goldsinks are the core of a game. If you start buying gold to avoid those goldsinks, then I guess that game is not your kind of game.
For me it is simple, I just avoid games that are have boring gameplay. I will never pay extra to avoid the boring stuff. Because that is plain stupid.
I knew people who were buying characters back in EQ.
There are people who want to play a game, with their friends, but don't have the spare time. They have lots of money though. That's a persona ldecision whether or not people think they can have fun in a game after spending money to skip some parts of it. MMOs have lots of reasons to play it OTHER than the gold grind. Playing with friends is a HUGE part of it, or being part of the later competitive scene.
DemonVile - can you please stop with the (very bad) analogies - while not answering the question?
(*Is it okay for DemonVile to use extreme analogies on the forum when this suggests that if, in real life, someone offended DemonVile he would obviously cut their head off and defile the corpse?... see?*)
The point was a good one. I have 'payed' another player in an MMO with in game gold for some art. It is, if you want to look at it that way, Gold Selling?
Gold Selling is also not "illegal". It may be against the ToS of some games - but even that's a bit dodgy really.
The way I read the original question was is a person paying money to get a 'shortcut' in a game a 'loser'?
Well, as NymiethePooh said "It depends on the design of the game in my opinion."
And it doesn't have to be just 3rd party sellers either - is buying a special character in a game like DDO the same thing?
Well, as many have said, why are you playing the game?
Personally, I never buy gold. I like the games I play... often the leveling up is the best part... if they get boring or grindy I leave. But, I do appreciate that the design of some games require that you 'level up' or have 'Ultra gear' to play certain content. And some people like that - but don't like to level up - so are they 'losers' for buying that up front?
That is the point really, as I read it.
To me, if the game is designed so that players are bored with the leveling up but must do so to get to the 'enjoyable' part then that is a problem with the game - not the players.
So, without the howling about Bots, and hackers, and funding crime and credit card fraud.... can you answer the question?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
You are describing what I call a major flaw in the lvl based games. I usually play with the same friends, but we don't always have the same amount of time. For this reason we avoid any MMO that has no solutions for lvl difference. So it has to have at least mentoring options or other ways to deal with lvl difference.
Buying a max character as your first character is just silly.
I used to think this too - but I'm not sure it applies any more.
What I mean is that the leveling up process in MMOs was something to teach you about your character and what your character's strength and weaknesses are.
But once you have done that once in some MMOs perhaps the value of leveling decreases? Maybe it's because the classes and skills aren't sufficiently different?
Also, maybe it's just me, but aren't MMOs getting easier now? With no real penalty for death - you can afford to spend a week dying with your level 70 char while you learn how to use it?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
The point was only a good one because it supports what you've already posted. It's an absurd tactic people use on forums to try and confuse an issue. overlookng little things does not mean big things are ok too.
3rd party gold buying supports the industry of hacking accounts etc. ff you think trading poems also supports it..well.....yeah.
So, if buying 3rd party gold supports "the industry of hacking accounts" (something I would like to see you show me BTW) doesn't ALL buying gold do the same?
I mean - if you think overlooking the little things makes the big things okay - then you think CCP selling PLEX (as an example?) supports gold selling and then supports hacking?
So CCP supports hacking? I think that's a long stretch... don't you?
And as i said - while I am sure there are immoral gold sellers who do hack - what about the ones that don't?
There are crooked cops too - are you saying they all are? (see - another bad analogy)
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
what do you think they hack accounts to get ?
and the part in red...I think is a moronic stretch that makes me regret ever even responding to you.
So, rather than provide a logical / well reasoned answer you will imply I am a Moron and refuse to answer huh?
You compared not writing a ticket for litter-bugging to allowing terrorism... is that really somewhere you want to go?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Why would all gold buying support the industry of hacking accounts?
We know hacking is done for gold selling purposes, that has been well documented and stated by many people in the industry many times. What we don't know is how pervasive it is.
We can reasonably believe it is not the companies themselves that are doing the hacking (blizzard, ccp, soe...). Therefore the hacking would be by 3rd party sellers. If you buy gold from a 3rd party seller you don't know where they got the gold from. If they are one of the groups that is doing the hacking then buying gold from them supports the hacking industry.
Buying gold from a site that does not hack does not support the hacking industry and the only people you can be reasonably sure of that is not hacking is the company themselves or through the company processes. Plex is one of these processes. If the person in Eve is selling the gold for plex, they are not making money in RL, therefore there is no profit to them.
Pretty straightforward actually.
Okay, that's a fair answer.
The problem I have is this apparent 'proof' that 3rd party Gold Sellers and 'the hacking industry' are supposedly the same thing?
If you could check that the gold was not obtained via 'hacking' then would that satisfy you?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
As it would not be possible to check that it had not been obtained through hacking etc. then its a largely pointless question, of course you could just take the word of the person selling the gold that they hadn't and it's not like they would lie to you or anything
RMT outfits are invariably involved in other illicit and criminal activities, such as hacking. or compromising in some way, players accounts. One thing they are very keen on, is funnily enough, obtaining the gold buyers email address, it makes it easier to hack them later on, but generally any player they can link an email address to, is an opportunity to cash in.
Well yes, I agree it would be hard to verify, particularly since there is anonymity to deal with. However I still have an issue with the assertion by so many people that ALL RMT traders are hackers and criminals. But I guess it's hard to prove either way (in this context) But if anyone has any actual figures or studies I would be interested to see the results?
I know that hacked accounts do get stripped and that certainly doesn't help give RMT dealers a good reputation.
As for the email accounts - true. But as I said earlier in this thread - it's a factor of how lazy we are with our passwords
https://xato.net/passwords/more-top-worst-passwords/#.U6a8O7H-pJQ
Not blaming users here - but clearly relying on single password type security is not that good.
The factor you miss too though is the number of people who get hacked as a result of Guild Forums.
How many of you use your Game Log in name as your Guild Forum name?
Then how many use the same password for their email account and give that email to the Guild Forum?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
It is a good point about passwords, password complexity is a must, not just for the various forums, but and perhaps especially, for your email login.
As for the RMT dealers, if you treat them all as potential hackers then you will rarely be wrong, and its not a safe area to experiment really, for all kinds of reasons, even if it's just the possibility of losing your game account through EULA breaking activities.
As for email accounts, you shouldn't use the same email account to register at a forum, that is also registered for a game, oddly enough, i get all kinds of messages in mine proclaiming to be from Blizzard about my dodgy activities etc in WoW, except, they seem to be sending them to the wrong email address, i also get emails claiming to be from nationwide and barclays, even though i don't bank with them
The internet is rife with scammers, malware distributors and hackers. Don't make things easy for them!
Okay, so having agreed on that.... are people who buy gold (to get gear for example) losers.... other than the fact they are running a risk of dealing with scammers?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
"paying to skip content"
You guys never tire of that strawman, do you?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I understand people who work, who cant play a lot wanting to just buy gold. but it sucks because it ruins games because the spammers have to be total d-bags about it.
if the spammers where not such a-holes it would not be so bad, but they just want to force there garbage on you 24/7, like sending you mails over and over and over.
totally ruins games for me. and I think the only real way to combat it, is for game companies to sell the gold themselves. but you get the idiots who cry about this, and we are stuck with the spammers.
I really see this vicious cycle as one of the main reasons that mmos are dead. companies cant combat the spammers, and it just ruins the game. I think new age gamers are just use to it, but the older gamers are not ok with this garbage.
I use to love mmo games, but now between the hacks and spammers, I have zero urge to play any.
The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Gold Buyers : Losers or Not? simulator v1.0
Hear me p2w devs.
after the player tag,wheres name,hp and perhaps mana ,show also how much player used irl money to cash shop.
that would be nice.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
You put way too many 0s in there.
Even if only ONE person did it in WoW, it'd be more than .0001%. 
And my point was that the problem isn't with gold buyers... but third party gold sellers.
... and that the fact is, people often use their out-of-game skills to get things in-game, no matter HOW much that drives some MMORPG players crazy.
Some people use their RL job -> money -> gold
Some people use their RL skills (Drawing, writing) -> gold
Some people use their ability to have RL sex (If you've never heard of somebody getting a spot in a guild raid group because they are a girlfriend/boyfriend, then consider yourself lucky, but it happens a lot) -> gold
MMORPGs are a social and multiplayer type of game, so they are severely compromised when it comes to 'just earning stuff through gameplay', because people can use their skills from outside of the game to get stuff. And in some MMORPGs, RL money happens to be one of those ways that is endorsed by the game makers.