Appreciate the good flow of dialog and a relatively civilized discussion Wildstar is a good game, but like most has it's flaws.
As for those who say to me that the game is "not for you and you should just move on", well, my opinion of the game and what it needs to do to survive has nothing to do with my ability to play or not play the game at any skill level. I'd bet it's safe to say I've been raiding at the extreme high end for longer than probably 90% of the people on these forums, so I'm pretty confident I understand what happens to games over time based on their design and audience reactions as it applies to both hardcore and casual players. Those of us that used to raid for 6-7 hours a night 6 days a week in EQ can attest to that.
As to WIldstar I'm not at all proposing that the game become casual. What I am proposing, and I feel is necessary necessary imo, is that the game correct a design strategy that will end up affecting all of it's playerbase including the target "hardcore" players. No game can survive and thrive with a small subscriber base. The smaller the base the less revenue to develop new content and fix issues.... the result is an even smaller subscriber base. It's a vicious circle.
Some of you have said I'm proposing it become "WoWStar"... well in a way I am. Anyone who thinks that WoW doesn't have a solid hardcore base is fooling themselves. If anything the "hardcore" base in WoW moved on due to simple burnout on playing the same game for over 10 years. That's 10 YEARS and probably subscribing most of that time. There's a reason it still has millions of subscribers.
So for those of you who think that a game can survive in a niche market with the kind of development dollars spent as Carbine has you are going to be in for a big surprise. I for one hope they make the necessary adjustments and succeed but right now I don't hold out a lot of hope.
Wildstar is working as intended, my server ZHUR is healthy and im currently leveling a couple of alts at various lever ranges and have not had a hard time grouping in any zone. there is nothing wrong with wildstar, you don't need to "save" it.
Wildstar is working as intended, my server ZHUR is healthy and im currently leveling a couple of alts at various lever ranges and have not had a hard time grouping in any zone. there is nothing wrong with wildstar, you don't need to "save" it.
True, it probably doesn't need "saving", it could use a boost though let's be honest. With WoD around the corner, WS might be hurting. It is going to fall into a "good game but not THE game" category like almost all other AAA mmos released in the past 5 years.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
It's simple as that. This game will be HC and it'll stay HC and that was one thing we knew about WS, before release. So this game will have its community and that community will enjoy the game as it is and not for "what I would like it to be, but it's not atm so I'll whine on forums to cause ripples".
Think the moron missed the point,
Originally posted by Robokapp
Not an inch to casuals.
There seems to be a problem with this "master race"-mentality that is being cultivated from the start from Carbine. It's only for the best, hardest, survival of the fittest, blablabla (btw: is it only a coindidence that one of the most successful guilds in Wildstar is named "Eugenic"?)
What this type of player (I think Carbine is well aware of the problem) is missing: if there aren't enough to play and therefor pay for the game, the lights will go out. Hardcore or not.
But maybe that's what some of these posters really want. After all there is no final survivor if there is no end ....
Originally posted by fivoroth
I think the game's biggest problem will be 40 man raiding. WoW figured that out before the notion of this game was even conceived. 40 man raids are only for the hardcore. Anyone who thinks they are a casual player who can do 40 man raiding is most likely not a casual player in the first place.
Being able to gather 40 people requires co-ordination and significant time commitment. These are not really related to player skill.
If Wildstar's 40man raids were like WoW's 40man, maybe they could make it work. But they are worse in many aspects. And that's why I agree with your conclusion, but not your reasoning.
First they are damn hard. In the old WoW 40man you only needed maybe 20-25 players that more or less knew what they are doing. You were able to carry the rest. In Wildstar not so much.
Then you have a very time consuming attunement process. WoW's attunement is nothing against it. Getting players ready to raid is a lot of work. Getting them ready for 40men is even more time consuming. When you loose players it hurts way more than in WoW.
And hard raids with 40 players are also a social challenge. There is not much room for a laid-back attitude. It has to be done very professionally to get it done at all. So not too much fun involved. Players get burned out way faster that way. Maybe you have to replace even more players than usual. Combined with the attunement process a real nighmare.
I can't really comment on Wildstar as I haven't played it but WoW's raids could be really difficult at times. I mean MC/Onyxia's Lair were easy and could be done with only 20-25 people who had a clue. BWL was a bit of a step up. But as soon as you got to AQ40 and Naxxramas you needed 40 people who knew what they were doing cause those raids were extremely difficult. Naxx probably less than 1% of the WoW population played it.
Naxx was hard in terms that you needed to gear 40 people with 2.5 tier gear, which took ages depending on rng + bloody reputation. Oh, resistances. Sapphiron was pain in the ass finding Frost resistance gear just to be able to see combat, just as original Ragnaros with Fire. Not to mention that gear itemization was shit at that time (Warrior gear with Spirit, come on!). All old raids were gear dependent, without right gear fights were extremely hard and to get right gear you needed a lot time to be able to see encounters.
Wildstar set up own Wow Vanilla nostalgia trap, but no one ever asked raiders which still raids today which one was better. They can only hear people who quit Wow long time ago telling how 1st Wow was best and hard. All QQ about how some dude needed 6 months to gear, now everyone can have it 1st day of raid release. Fuck that, I'm out. Really? Anyone asked Paragon what gear they had wiping last tier end boss 700 times? And how about this - there were 2-3 private Vanilla servers, up to Naxx patch. Perfect servers, like Blizzard's, without single bugs. I didn't see people playing on them (they were closed, loss of people), but everyday I see people here, on mmo-champion, on blizzard forums how Vanilla was better, bring back Vanilla, Wow sux now. No one stepped into Heroic Raids 1st day at opening, nope, they want 6 more months to grind gear from raid released 6 months ago to be able to see current raid. Blizzard said, fuck that shit, here there are bosses with improved mechanics, who needs gear anyway, go on and prove your skill.
Now Wildstar trying to bring the past, forgetting how was painfull to get all that stuff working, attunements and prerequisitions to be able to raid - wait, but I was there already once, this is only different and maybe even worse than it was before.
That's a bit difficult to read ^^ Re difficult raiding, basically all carbine are saying is that they are not going to nerf content over time, instead they understand that players WILL get better over time naturally - you think this is not the case?
Re private servers Incidently - there are many out there, I will say no more than that.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom That's a bit difficult to read ^^ Re difficult raiding, basically all carbine are saying is that they are not going to nerf content over time, instead they understand that players WILL get better over time naturally - you think this is not the case?
Re private servers Incidently - there are many out there, I will say no more than that.
No need to nerf raids. Let them to be last bastion of hardcore, but make them more accessible. Make leveling content and dungeons accessible to more players, but keep end-game hard and competitive.
It may be too late. It's seems WS's woes go far beyond raid attunement. The discord and despair read in these post make the TSW forums after GW2's launch look cheerful. You can feel the anger as you read. Why am I reading? It started off as schandenfrude I guess. Now it's like when the news casters say "warning what you are about to see..." and you continue to watch.
Even though I've hated this mmo from the beginning for being "nothing new" I love the genre, and seeing what looks like an utter collapse, implode is distressing to watch. Don't expect to see anymore WS bashes from me.
It may be too late. It's seems WS's woes go far beyond raid attunement. The discord and despair read in these post make the TSW forums after GW2's launch look cheerful. You can feel the anger as you read. Why am I reading? It started off as schandenfrude I guess. Now it's like when the news casters say "warning what you are about to see..." and you continue to watch.
Even though I've hated this mmo from the beginning for being "nothing new" I love the genre, and seeing what looks like an utter collapse, implode is distressing to watch. Don't expect to see anymore WS bashes from me.
lol. Until tomorrow. I dont think the game needs to you stop bashing it. Its already beating other MMOs that are suppose to be much more popular in time played. Seems like for every negative post there is another 100 players having the time of their life.
Are you implying that a niche game for hardcore raiders can't survive on its own? Why should casuals foot the bill for hardcores or vice versa? Something tells me that Wildstar will be profitable enough with its current audience. MMOs don't need millions to be successful or profitable as long as they focus on their target audience and release content and updates on a regular basis.
Frankly, I'm rather tired of homogenized game play trying to target some amorphous and non-existent masses. I think players are losing their tolerance for games that tout diverse gameplay, yet reward one group over the others.
What I don't get about Wildstar is that it uses a very juvenile art style that reminds me of a Pixar movie and still tries to market itself as a hardcore game. Granted a games art style is pretty subjective but if they wanted to attract more hardcore gamers they should have went with a more adult and gritty art style.
This
Actually . I think is just another one of those : throw in a pile all the things we think WOW did good , and see what sticks.
Originally posted by Cryptor This is pretty funny stuff. As far as we can see in-game it's getting busier by the day.
ROFL the delusions of fanbois, they have already released the stats, the pop us plummeting BIG TIME. This is not debatable it is only if you are going to live you rlife in denial or not hahah.
Bad game is bad. Nothing is hard about wildstar, it is just a huge time sink, like offf the 40 days og mundane repetition to access the raid content.
I think it's too late. The 'hardcore' crowd will cry and moan that the devs are caving and going back on their promises if they change anything to attract more players, and will it even bring more people in at this point or bring us back? I have my doubts.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Comments
Appreciate the good flow of dialog and a relatively civilized discussion
Wildstar is a good game, but like most has it's flaws.
As for those who say to me that the game is "not for you and you should just move on", well, my opinion of the game and what it needs to do to survive has nothing to do with my ability to play or not play the game at any skill level. I'd bet it's safe to say I've been raiding at the extreme high end for longer than probably 90% of the people on these forums, so I'm pretty confident I understand what happens to games over time based on their design and audience reactions as it applies to both hardcore and casual players. Those of us that used to raid for 6-7 hours a night 6 days a week in EQ can attest to that.
As to WIldstar I'm not at all proposing that the game become casual. What I am proposing, and I feel is necessary necessary imo, is that the game correct a design strategy that will end up affecting all of it's playerbase including the target "hardcore" players. No game can survive and thrive with a small subscriber base. The smaller the base the less revenue to develop new content and fix issues.... the result is an even smaller subscriber base. It's a vicious circle.
Some of you have said I'm proposing it become "WoWStar"... well in a way I am. Anyone who thinks that WoW doesn't have a solid hardcore base is fooling themselves. If anything the "hardcore" base in WoW moved on due to simple burnout on playing the same game for over 10 years. That's 10 YEARS and probably subscribing most of that time. There's a reason it still has millions of subscribers.
So for those of you who think that a game can survive in a niche market with the kind of development dollars spent as Carbine has you are going to be in for a big surprise. I for one hope they make the necessary adjustments and succeed but right now I don't hold out a lot of hope.
Wildstar is working as intended, my server ZHUR is healthy and im currently leveling a couple of alts at various lever ranges and have not had a hard time grouping in any zone. there is nothing wrong with wildstar, you don't need to "save" it.
Herald of innovation, Vanquisher of the old! - Awake a few hours almost everyday!
True, it probably doesn't need "saving", it could use a boost though let's be honest. With WoD around the corner, WS might be hurting. It is going to fall into a "good game but not THE game" category like almost all other AAA mmos released in the past 5 years.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
Naxx was hard in terms that you needed to gear 40 people with 2.5 tier gear, which took ages depending on rng + bloody reputation. Oh, resistances. Sapphiron was pain in the ass finding Frost resistance gear just to be able to see combat, just as original Ragnaros with Fire. Not to mention that gear itemization was shit at that time (Warrior gear with Spirit, come on!).
All old raids were gear dependent, without right gear fights were extremely hard and to get right gear you needed a lot time to be able to see encounters.
Wildstar set up own Wow Vanilla nostalgia trap, but no one ever asked raiders which still raids today which one was better. They can only hear people who quit Wow long time ago telling how 1st Wow was best and hard. All QQ about how some dude needed 6 months to gear, now everyone can have it 1st day of raid release. Fuck that, I'm out. Really? Anyone asked Paragon what gear they had wiping last tier end boss 700 times? And how about this - there were 2-3 private Vanilla servers, up to Naxx patch. Perfect servers, like Blizzard's, without single bugs. I didn't see people playing on them (they were closed, loss of people), but everyday I see people here, on mmo-champion, on blizzard forums how Vanilla was better, bring back Vanilla, Wow sux now. No one stepped into Heroic Raids 1st day at opening, nope, they want 6 more months to grind gear from raid released 6 months ago to be able to see current raid. Blizzard said, fuck that shit, here there are bosses with improved mechanics, who needs gear anyway, go on and prove your skill.
Now Wildstar trying to bring the past, forgetting how was painfull to get all that stuff working, attunements and prerequisitions to be able to raid - wait, but I was there already once, this is only different and maybe even worse than it was before.
Re private servers Incidently - there are many out there, I will say no more than that.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
No need to nerf raids. Let them to be last bastion of hardcore, but make them more accessible. Make leveling content and dungeons accessible to more players, but keep end-game hard and competitive.
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/forum/102-general-discussion/
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/forum/36-pvp/
It may be too late. It's seems WS's woes go far beyond raid attunement. The discord and despair read in these post make the TSW forums after GW2's launch look cheerful. You can feel the anger as you read. Why am I reading? It started off as schandenfrude I guess. Now it's like when the news casters say "warning what you are about to see..." and you continue to watch.
Even though I've hated this mmo from the beginning for being "nothing new" I love the genre, and seeing what looks like an utter collapse, implode is distressing to watch. Don't expect to see anymore WS bashes from me.
lol. Until tomorrow. I dont think the game needs to you stop bashing it. Its already beating other MMOs that are suppose to be much more popular in time played. Seems like for every negative post there is another 100 players having the time of their life.
Are you implying that a niche game for hardcore raiders can't survive on its own? Why should casuals foot the bill for hardcores or vice versa? Something tells me that Wildstar will be profitable enough with its current audience. MMOs don't need millions to be successful or profitable as long as they focus on their target audience and release content and updates on a regular basis.
Frankly, I'm rather tired of homogenized game play trying to target some amorphous and non-existent masses. I think players are losing their tolerance for games that tout diverse gameplay, yet reward one group over the others.
This
Actually . I think is just another one of those : throw in a pile all the things we think WOW did good , and see what sticks.
ROFL the delusions of fanbois, they have already released the stats, the pop us plummeting BIG TIME. This is not debatable it is only if you are going to live you rlife in denial or not hahah.
Bad game is bad. Nothing is hard about wildstar, it is just a huge time sink, like offf the 40 days og mundane repetition to access the raid content.
Do you have a link for that?
Yeah, I'd want a look at that as well, from what I see at least the game is still doing pretty good to be honest.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein