Well there are a couple things wich hurt the tank class.
I geus they have been said before by this would be my reasoning
1 solo-centric way mmo's are made does not help.
2 tanks carry a big responsibility. i would say that the healer responsibility is much the same but tanks have the adde leadership role and pretty much dictating the entire thing the group/raid does.
3 because this big responsibility, tanks are treated horribly. I'ts insane how tanks are treated when they have to face a new unknown encounter when the rest of the group is experienced. When the content is new to everyone it does not matter much. But new tanks are not given a chanse making them scarce
4 And well to be honest. it just takes a special kind of person to tank. Not everyone can do it, not everyone is good at it. Not everyone wants to have the eyes of the entire raidgroup on your back waiting fo you to jump into the fray so they can start healing and going mad with skills.
So it needing a special kind of person and them being treated horribly does not end well for people with doubt in their tanking.
My reasons from my experience after playing many mmos :
1) Tanks are often the most boring class, without any abilities that stand out.
2) Tanks because of defensive are weaker classes.
3) People are scared to play them In a trinity system :
a) Your often expected to know your taunts perfectly without fault.
b) You get blamed often with others mistakes. ( you better have tough skin to take backlash )
c ) Your often expected to know the Dungeon / Raid well.
d) Your often expected to lead.
e) Your expected to handle the asshat in your group.
My list is somewhat similar to maji's:
It's a contrived class, so they're only really useful in groups whereas all other other classes can function well. As a result, only the players interested in playing primarily in groups will roll a tank.
It's a difficult class, because it is the glue that holds a raid together. You have to manage the engagement as much as the healer does, if not more.
I don't think 'scared' has anything to do with it. More like either realizing one can't play the role effectively or simply not wanting to put up with other people's crap.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Tanks are hard to find because tanks are a group class and most modern MMOs are designed for solo play until you reach end-game. Nobody wants to level up as a tank because it takes a lot longer. If your class can switch from DPS to tank, many are afraid to do so because they don't know that part of their class.
Also, "you're" is the contraction for "you are." The word, "your" is used for writing, "That tank is yours," signifying it belongs to you.
I refuse to group with tanks who can't get the simple things like your and you're right.
That is probably a large part of the problem, yes. OPs reasons are surely part as well though.
I have a feeling tanks will either change or disappear in the next few years because the focus on soloplay but also because some games have made other systems that do make combat more unpredictable, and that forces players too react more to different situations which can be pretty fun.
Tanks also are a problem in games that have 50/50 PvP since taunts are disabled against another player. That means part of what your class do is worthless whenever you PvP and you will be forced to learn how to play your class in 2 very different ways. Now if they worked so that the taunt locked the player you used it ons target on you it might be more people willing to play tanks in those games but the question is if it would be fun.
There are a ton of reasons but the simplest reasons derail down to it being a high stress job. Most people like doing a job that is really low stress and they can do while not paying much attention.
I generally don't do raid content so I can't speak for that, but I like playing a tank simply because it does require some knowledge and skill. Other benefits I would list are:
It is easier to stand out as a good tank, though the reverse is true as well.
No more bad tanks in pugs
You ultimately have the power to lead the group. If the dps is being stupid, call them on it and 9/10 times they will behave better for the rest of the run.
Instant queues.
One thing I don't like is timing based mechanics, i.e. stuns / interrupts, but that it mainly due to 250ms+ ping.
Who need tank when you can solo from start to end ?
Who need the trinity when you can solo from start to end? Gameplay design is moving from interdependency to "if someone shows up, make sure they don't spoil your fun".
By the time you got a healer, you will have a tank, too, no matter how long it actually takes.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
I think another reason is that if a tank is not flawless its easy to see their mistake. Whereas, a dps can totally screw up and no one is the wiser. You can have a dps put out half the dps he is suppose to, and no one would boot him and the group would be fine. A tank messes up slightly, and it can cause a death or wipe. Throw in the mechanics for boss, and it makes it even harder for a tank. A good tank is way under appreciated.
Originally posted by Golelorn I think another reason is that if a tank is not flawless its easy to see their mistake. Whereas, a dps can totally screw up and no one is the wiser. You can have a dps put out half the dps he is suppose to, and no one would boot him and the group would be fine. A tank messes up slightly, and it can cause a death or wipe. Throw in the mechanics for boss, and it makes it even harder for a tank. A good tank is way under appreciated.
Not for those (and there are a lot) who monitor dps meters constantly. They will boot those with 1/2 expected dps.
Originally posted by centkin Actually one of the saddest things to hear as a tank in some games is "We would rather go with 5 DPS because it is faster."
And then people are curious as to the lack of good healers and tanks in those games. :P
Tanks are a class designed for lower powered computers and poor internet connectivity. Taunting tanks (who aren't magickal or super powered) are an immersion breaking metagame contrivance to me. When you have collision detection and control of space, a heavilly armored, shielded frontline character makes more sense. Classically though, you'd be hard pressed to come up with an example of something that has great armor but no danger of attack. Everyone would just avoid it, which is what they'd do in most games if the rules design had any internal consistency.
The psychology and the frequency of game play tells us that a lot of people don't find the role to be that enjoyable or interesting. I know it didn't interest me that much, though I was pretty good at the times that I did play a tank or a healer. Now, controllers, on the other hand....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
My reasons from my experience after playing many mmos :
1) Tanks are often the most boring class, without any abilities that stand out.
2) Tanks because of defensive are weaker classes.
3) People are scared to play them In a trinity system :
a) Your often expected to know your taunts perfectly without fault.
b) You get blamed often with others mistakes. ( you better have tough skin to take backlash )
c ) Your often expected to know the Dungeon / Raid well.
d) Your often expected to lead.
e) Your expected to handle the asshat in your group.
Just one short story that comes to mind :
Several years ago, I was playing a Warrior in Vanilla WoW. We were doing Scarlet Monastery. I arraigned the group. I took a lower level Paladin that begged me to take him. He was by far too low but since the majority were at a good level I decided to take him.
I had my game plan all together. Knowing that Scarlet Monastery has stubborn caster mobs, I planed to range pull them to us. I've done this many times, it works well.
Right from the start we could tell this Paladin was a heckler ( you know what I'm talking about, ONE OF THEM ).
He insisted on being the tank, and he had no ranged abilities. He insisted on NOT waiting for the group to grab agro, this pulled all mobs to us, groups and groups of them at once getting us killed. Blaming everyone around him.
Situations like this is why no one likes being the tank. Sure there are many ways of going about pulls, but when you have someone else other than the tank insisting on pulling there way you have conflict.
This is why no one likes to play a tank !.......Answer ?.....I don't know.
Heh i remember my tank on EQ2 back in the pay to play days. He was a doge tank, 98% chance of dodging an enemy's attack and even if he did get hit he still had over 40k hp. He also hit like a truck thanks to a few buffs clerics could give. But sadly yes your statement is true, people are afraid to play tanks OR they rather have the high skills because they feel like they accomplish something. Tanks are also highly group play deppendant, unless you make a freak of nature like i did. As for the poster above me, you apparently have no idea that lag to a tank is just as bad as it is to DPs or healer. Miss a taunt DPS gets aggro and dies. The only tank i can see you basing your knowledge off of is WoW, and even then it makes your "low end bad connection" statement wrong on so many levels. And its people like you who roll DPS because your to afraid to ACTUALLY learn how to be a good tank, A skilled tank does not spam taunt, they balance defensive debuffs with taunts to make a hellish fight easier.
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My reasons from my experience after playing many mmos :
1) Tanks are often the most boring class, without any abilities that stand out.
2) Tanks because of defensive are weaker classes.
3) People are scared to play them In a trinity system :
a) Your often expected to know your taunts perfectly without fault.
b) You get blamed often with others mistakes. ( you better have tough skin to take backlash )
c ) Your often expected to know the Dungeon / Raid well.
d) Your often expected to lead.
e) Your expected to handle the asshat in your group.
Just one short story that comes to mind :
Several years ago, I was playing a Warrior in Vanilla WoW. We were doing Scarlet Monastery. I arraigned the group. I took a lower level Paladin that begged me to take him. He was by far too low but since the majority were at a good level I decided to take him.
I had my game plan all together. Knowing that Scarlet Monastery has stubborn caster mobs, I planed to range pull them to us. I've done this many times, it works well.
Right from the start we could tell this Paladin was a heckler ( you know what I'm talking about, ONE OF THEM ).
He insisted on being the tank, and he had no ranged abilities. He insisted on NOT waiting for the group to grab agro, this pulled all mobs to us, groups and groups of them at once getting us killed. Blaming everyone around him.
Situations like this is why no one likes being the tank. Sure there are many ways of going about pulls, but when you have someone else other than the tank insisting on pulling there way you have conflict.
This is why no one likes to play a tank !.......Answer ?.....I don't know.
Heh i remember my tank on EQ2 back in the pay to play days. He was a doge tank, 98% chance of dodging an enemy's attack and even if he did get hit he still had over 40k hp. He also hit like a truck thanks to a few buffs clerics could give. But sadly yes your statement is true, people are afraid to play tanks OR they rather have the high skills because they feel like they accomplish something. Tanks are also highly group play deppendant, unless you make a freak of nature like i did. As for the poster above me, you apparently have no idea that lag to a tank is just as bad as it is to DPs or healer. Miss a taunt DPS gets aggro and dies. The only tank i can see you basing your knowledge off of is WoW, and even then it makes your "low end bad connection" statement wrong on so many levels. And its people like you who roll DPS because your to afraid to ACTUALLY learn how to be a good tank, A skilled tank does not spam taunt, they balance defensive debuffs with taunts to make a hellish fight easier.
Sorry, don't play WoW. Never liked the setting or mechanics. Taunts are mostly a substitute for collision detection. Which is a little too calculation intensive for many MMOs.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
My reasons from my experience after playing many mmos :
1) Tanks are often the most boring class, without any abilities that stand out.
2) Tanks because of defensive are weaker classes.
3) People are scared to play them In a trinity system :
a) Your often expected to know your taunts perfectly without fault.
b) You get blamed often with others mistakes. ( you better have tough skin to take backlash )
c ) Your often expected to know the Dungeon / Raid well.
d) Your often expected to lead.
e) Your expected to handle the asshat in your group.
Just one short story that comes to mind :
Several years ago, I was playing a Warrior in Vanilla WoW. We were doing Scarlet Monastery. I arraigned the group. I took a lower level Paladin that begged me to take him. He was by far too low but since the majority were at a good level I decided to take him.
I had my game plan all together. Knowing that Scarlet Monastery has stubborn caster mobs, I planed to range pull them to us. I've done this many times, it works well.
Right from the start we could tell this Paladin was a heckler ( you know what I'm talking about, ONE OF THEM ).
He insisted on being the tank, and he had no ranged abilities. He insisted on NOT waiting for the group to grab agro, this pulled all mobs to us, groups and groups of them at once getting us killed. Blaming everyone around him.
Situations like this is why no one likes being the tank. Sure there are many ways of going about pulls, but when you have someone else other than the tank insisting on pulling there way you have conflict.
This is why no one likes to play a tank !.......Answer ?.....I don't know.
Heh i remember my tank on EQ2 back in the pay to play days. He was a doge tank, 98% chance of dodging an enemy's attack and even if he did get hit he still had over 40k hp. He also hit like a truck thanks to a few buffs clerics could give. But sadly yes your statement is true, people are afraid to play tanks OR they rather have the high skills because they feel like they accomplish something. Tanks are also highly group play deppendant, unless you make a freak of nature like i did. As for the poster above me, you apparently have no idea that lag to a tank is just as bad as it is to DPs or healer. Miss a taunt DPS gets aggro and dies. The only tank i can see you basing your knowledge off of is WoW, and even then it makes your "low end bad connection" statement wrong on so many levels. And its people like you who roll DPS because your to afraid to ACTUALLY learn how to be a good tank, A skilled tank does not spam taunt, they balance defensive debuffs with taunts to make a hellish fight easier.
Sorry, don't play WoW. Never liked the setting or mechanics. Taunts are mostly a substitute for collision detection. Which is a little too calculation intensive for many MMOs.
Only game i can think of that had somewhat INVOVLED tanking was tera, but it even had taunting. then again these were more magical tanks.
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Why would you want to lead a group, manage every encounter, and set the pace for the entire dungeon when you can just faceroll a DPS class while you watch Netflix?
I guess because eveyone blames the tank. In AO we used to say: Doc Dead? -> Tank's fault, Tank dead? -> Doc's fault, Shade dead? -> Shade's fault. People do not learn to let the tank aggro and manage their dps. Thanks to addons and DPS-meters everyone just wants to be on top and if you can't go all out on this race it is the tank's fault, for not holding aggro. Not to imagine one has to hold back and manage DPS like the tank has to manage aggro and in the end falls 2nd in the DPS list.
Those meters kill off anything that is not DPS, because it is all about hitting #1. Crowd control, helping to keep the tank alive passivy by slowing down attack speed, or mezzing mobs? Nah, wont show up in the DPS list and mezzing is restricting the all out DPSers, since they can not attack anything they like.
Speed runs are part of it, too I guess. All DPS groups trying to mow down anything before it gets critical, trying to speed through anything they come across. Too sad in hectic and fast times like ours even our hobbies are rushed.
One game comes to mind where tanking is done a lot differently : DC universe online. in DCUo tanking mob is mostly based on tank's kits, tank has cc abilities, aoe abilities that does quite a lot of aoe damage and the only way to keep aggro is to do more and more damage and more and more cc. if a tank is not doing that even if a healer or dps standing right beside the tank, mob will just hammer them to death. In my opinion tanking should be more like controlling the battle than just spamming taunt.
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we had to do a 3-tank swap on a boss immune to taunt.
Oh, how I miss Burning Crusade.
Ah yeah hated this fight being a fury warr I had to gimp my dps and not use heroic strike to not pass the tanks. I'd have to say brutallis was another crazy tank swap fight, dude would 1 shot a tank if they didn't pop CD's at the right time.
Originally posted by Golelorn I think another reason is that if a tank is not flawless its easy to see their mistake. Whereas, a dps can totally screw up and no one is the wiser. You can have a dps put out half the dps he is suppose to, and no one would boot him and the group would be fine. A tank messes up slightly, and it can cause a death or wipe. Throw in the mechanics for boss, and it makes it even harder for a tank. A good tank is way under appreciated.
More often than not if I really watch the dps for the duration of the event, I often see at least one dps in the group afk.
Comments
Well there are a couple things wich hurt the tank class.
I geus they have been said before by this would be my reasoning
1 solo-centric way mmo's are made does not help.
2 tanks carry a big responsibility. i would say that the healer responsibility is much the same but tanks have the adde leadership role and pretty much dictating the entire thing the group/raid does.
3 because this big responsibility, tanks are treated horribly. I'ts insane how tanks are treated when they have to face a new unknown encounter when the rest of the group is experienced. When the content is new to everyone it does not matter much. But new tanks are not given a chanse making them scarce
4 And well to be honest. it just takes a special kind of person to tank. Not everyone can do it, not everyone is good at it. Not everyone wants to have the eyes of the entire raidgroup on your back waiting fo you to jump into the fray so they can start healing and going mad with skills.
So it needing a special kind of person and them being treated horribly does not end well for people with doubt in their tanking.
And people wonder why MMO's aren't social anymore.......
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My list is somewhat similar to maji's:
It's a contrived class, so they're only really useful in groups whereas all other other classes can function well. As a result, only the players interested in playing primarily in groups will roll a tank.
It's a difficult class, because it is the glue that holds a raid together. You have to manage the engagement as much as the healer does, if not more.
I don't think 'scared' has anything to do with it. More like either realizing one can't play the role effectively or simply not wanting to put up with other people's crap.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That is probably a large part of the problem, yes. OPs reasons are surely part as well though.
I have a feeling tanks will either change or disappear in the next few years because the focus on soloplay but also because some games have made other systems that do make combat more unpredictable, and that forces players too react more to different situations which can be pretty fun.
Tanks also are a problem in games that have 50/50 PvP since taunts are disabled against another player. That means part of what your class do is worthless whenever you PvP and you will be forced to learn how to play your class in 2 very different ways. Now if they worked so that the taunt locked the player you used it ons target on you it might be more people willing to play tanks in those games but the question is if it would be fun.
1) Good dps makes it easier for the tank
2) Good tanks usually can replace 3-5 people in dps with a dps class
3) Tanks get fed up and do the job bad players can't do right
4) Tanks are the most dumbed down class in every game so they figure the bad players can tank
5) Bad players dont tank because they think they are good so they stick with dragging groups down in their dps class.
I love playing tanks and healers.
I don't usually see myself as a leader when I tank, though. I just like being a badass meatshield.
There are a ton of reasons but the simplest reasons derail down to it being a high stress job. Most people like doing a job that is really low stress and they can do while not paying much attention.
Who need tank when you can solo from start to end ?
Tank are jobless as long as the contents allow to solo , and without people support you , tank class are boring as hell.
And there are cost to build tank , 4 to 8 piece of gears to become good tank while other class only need to max they weapon and other item are so so .
All of that make tank something only rich guy can do . And rich guys never want to tank because they will get bash by party if things go wrong .
I generally don't do raid content so I can't speak for that, but I like playing a tank simply because it does require some knowledge and skill. Other benefits I would list are:
One thing I don't like is timing based mechanics, i.e. stuns / interrupts, but that it mainly due to 250ms+ ping.
Who need the trinity when you can solo from start to end? Gameplay design is moving from interdependency to "if someone shows up, make sure they don't spoil your fun".
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
Not for those (and there are a lot) who monitor dps meters constantly. They will boot those with 1/2 expected dps.
And then people are curious as to the lack of good healers and tanks in those games. :P
Tanks are a class designed for lower powered computers and poor internet connectivity. Taunting tanks (who aren't magickal or super powered) are an immersion breaking metagame contrivance to me. When you have collision detection and control of space, a heavilly armored, shielded frontline character makes more sense. Classically though, you'd be hard pressed to come up with an example of something that has great armor but no danger of attack. Everyone would just avoid it, which is what they'd do in most games if the rules design had any internal consistency.
The psychology and the frequency of game play tells us that a lot of people don't find the role to be that enjoyable or interesting. I know it didn't interest me that much, though I was pretty good at the times that I did play a tank or a healer. Now, controllers, on the other hand....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Heh i remember my tank on EQ2 back in the pay to play days. He was a doge tank, 98% chance of dodging an enemy's attack and even if he did get hit he still had over 40k hp. He also hit like a truck thanks to a few buffs clerics could give. But sadly yes your statement is true, people are afraid to play tanks OR they rather have the high skills because they feel like they accomplish something. Tanks are also highly group play deppendant, unless you make a freak of nature like i did. As for the poster above me, you apparently have no idea that lag to a tank is just as bad as it is to DPs or healer. Miss a taunt DPS gets aggro and dies. The only tank i can see you basing your knowledge off of is WoW, and even then it makes your "low end bad connection" statement wrong on so many levels. And its people like you who roll DPS because your to afraid to ACTUALLY learn how to be a good tank, A skilled tank does not spam taunt, they balance defensive debuffs with taunts to make a hellish fight easier.
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And people forget one thing there are not enough place for 2 tank in one party.
In one party , stronger tank take lead .
Useless tanks get kick out or just become leech.That also make people don't want to make tank.
Sorry, don't play WoW. Never liked the setting or mechanics. Taunts are mostly a substitute for collision detection. Which is a little too calculation intensive for many MMOs.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Only game i can think of that had somewhat INVOVLED tanking was tera, but it even had taunting. then again these were more magical tanks.
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I guess because eveyone blames the tank. In AO we used to say: Doc Dead? -> Tank's fault, Tank dead? -> Doc's fault, Shade dead? -> Shade's fault.
People do not learn to let the tank aggro and manage their dps. Thanks to addons and DPS-meters everyone just wants to be on top and if you can't go all out on this race it is the tank's fault, for not holding aggro. Not to imagine one has to hold back and manage DPS like the tank has to manage aggro and in the end falls 2nd in the DPS list.
Those meters kill off anything that is not DPS, because it is all about hitting #1. Crowd control, helping to keep the tank alive passivy by slowing down attack speed, or mezzing mobs? Nah, wont show up in the DPS list and mezzing is restricting the all out DPSers, since they can not attack anything they like.
Speed runs are part of it, too I guess. All DPS groups trying to mow down anything before it gets critical, trying to speed through anything they come across. Too sad in hectic and fast times like ours even our hobbies are rushed.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Ah yeah hated this fight being a fury warr I had to gimp my dps and not use heroic strike to not pass the tanks. I'd have to say brutallis was another crazy tank swap fight, dude would 1 shot a tank if they didn't pop CD's at the right time.
More often than not if I really watch the dps for the duration of the event, I often see at least one dps in the group afk.
And this is most every mmo I played.