Originally posted by holdenhamlet So I'm on Tahyang with Oran'thul and they basically control everything. I've read about other servers having their own zerg guild issues.
What's the point of playing a sandbox PVP game if you can never win?
Get organised.
I play Harani and our answer to big red zerg guilds was to build trusted alliances.
So, yeah, less complaining about it being unfair and more getting organised and taking it back.
Get in to TS with other guilds, support them on TRs and make sure you get with them for Hasla or whatever.
This.
Is all about the faction really. in my long MMORPG experience many times the underdogs turn the tables.
Since they smaller in numbers they have a chance to organize themselces more efficient while in same time the bigger numbers become sluggish, start to fight each other over what was won and start to split in sub groups with different goals.
This just needs time to happen, the underdog has to be patient.
The keyword for the underdogs is unity in the common goal. If they fail in it the described situation occurs and the bigger numbers dominate.
This argument makes the assumption that the big guilds can't get organized.
Zerg guilds is not a problem it is in fact a boon.
Guilds and alliances = social interactions.
The fact that not more mmos have zerg guilds actually means it is not very true to the mmo creed - that it is supposed to be MASSIVELY multiplayer online, not just multiplayer online.
Also no big guilds last forever - when it gets too big politics tends to rip it apart, so in the end it always balances itself.
Eventually, in competitive MMOs, politics or boredom tears big guilds down, only for new big guilds to take their place
Don't expect any small guilds to ever succeed in this type of game though. The big guilds will change places but that's about it. If you don't like it, you'll either have to join a big guild yourself, deal with it, or leave the game (lots of people choose the latter option).
As of note, the same factors that makes big guilds implode also makes big alliances implode, so any alliance of small guilds to overcome the big guilds tends to not last long either.
Oh, and Archeage might not be a sand box to the fullest extent, but isn't a theme park either past a certain point. Themeparks have rides (IE, constant progression PvE and oncoming PvE content). Archeage does not (in the end game)
Large guilds do have their advantage but I do wonder if MMOs would fare better with smaller groups like the pen and paper games have.
How do you prevent people teaming up?
How do you prevent teaming up from being a problem?
That is the better question. And, as it turns out, two PvP games do not seem to have had major issues with zergs totally locking everyone else out. EvE, and Darkfall, an unlikely pair. Both EvE and DFO/DFUW have only one server, and are huge areas that take some time to traverse, even with the available fast transportation. After many years, there are still smaller groups seizing spaceturf in EvE, even as huge zergs dominate large areas. In DFO, there were two 'world wars' fought by massive zerg alliances, and after that the territory was taken by many smaller groups. In both games, there are constantly shifting alliances, internecine warfare, betrayals, rivalries, and near constant strife. It would seem that the answer to zerg domination of a server, is to only have one server, with a massive enough world for them to fight in.
Not that server based games can implement this fix, they would need a new backend infrastructure, and a game like AA would have to deal with the established land claims.
What's the point of playing a sandbox PVP game if you can never win?
As it was said numerous times before: AA is not a sandbox, it is a poorly designed themepark.
Seems like some people still do not get this
Guild caps are no issue there, it is just a name tag. 1000 people in 1 guild or split in 5 makes no difference.
Also, the game can be won, Oran'thu clearly won ArcheAge
I think it is pretty sandboxy. I have a lot of choices on how I want to progress and the difficulty is often player determined, which is why this is such a problem.
If it wasn't sandboxy then a guild couldn't basically control and dominate the game like this guild is. In a themepark, it doesn't matter to me what the strongest/biggest guild is doing- it doesn't affect me in the slightest.
In this game, they're basically ruining my entire gameplay experience.
But re: them winning the game- that sucks because the game is a long-term thing. If they've already won, then what's the point of playing on this server if you're not in that guild?
You are confusing Sandbox with PVE in this case, because in an open world PVP MMO large guilds affect the game play... it is not because the game is "Sandboxy". If the MMO didn't have open world PVP to affect your progression then it would be easier.
Originally posted by holdenhamlet So I'm on Tahyang with Oran'thul and they basically control everything. I've read about other servers having their own zerg guild issues.
Freedich is on lockdown most of the time and if it isn't, they can easily zerg in through their house to overwhelm anyone trying to make a large turn in.
The west has never won a Halcyona. Hasla is theirs whenever they feel like driving everyone out. It's looking bleak for the update as OT is probably going to zerg their way to a couple castles at least.
PVP is basically pointless as I'm always in a 5to1 disadvantage. Basically my game-play is relegated to logging in, milking my cows, and logging off.
Allowing guilds with so many people is bad enough, but the game has been out for years so they had all the information they needed to lock down everything. It really seems like a zerg guild in this version of the game is basically able to ruin a server.
I suggest limiting the cap on guilds to say 300 or even 500. The current way it is just allows for too much global dominance and is going to drive people away. I'm already trying to find a new game since almost anything is better than milking cows. I have over a thousand gold but there's no point in spending it on gear if I'll always be against impossible odds.
What's the point of playing a sandbox PVP game if you can never win?
This game is utterly broken bud. This problem was brought up many times on basis of what happened in Russia and Korea but as usual no solution. Game is just very badly designed and this point even devs don't have the fix.
Originally posted by Ket_Viliano And, as it turns out, two PvP games do not seem to have had major issues with zergs totally locking everyone else out. EvE, and Darkfall, an unlikely pair. Both EvE and DFO/DFUW have only one server, and are huge areas that take some time to traverse, even with the available fast transportation.
EVE does suffer exactly same issue, the 0.0 area is stale and boring. It is also one of the major focus for upcoming expansions and expansions that will follow.
Darkfall is a dead game that has no population to create this isssue.
Alot of OT lower members are at there breaking point from being harrased by the Guild that there leadership decided to put on KoS list, so those guild are killing them and the higher up in the guild dont give a fuck about them, its only a matter of time if things stay as they are for them to be honost.
And, as it turns out, two PvP games do not seem to have had major issues with zergs totally locking everyone else out. EvE, and Darkfall, an unlikely pair. Both EvE and DFO/DFUW have only one server, and are huge areas that take some time to traverse, even with the available fast transportation.
EVE does suffer exactly same issue, the 0.0 area is stale and boring. It is also one of the major focus for upcoming expansions and expansions that will follow.
Darkfall is a dead game that has no population to create this isssue.
Probably one of the reasons why CCP are not only introducing Jump Fatigue to Eve Online, but also allowing cap ships to use low and null sec gates. That and the mechanics that surround how fast ships can travel within system should make null sec combat a bit more interesting, especially once Jump Fatigue is in, knowing that you need to be able to use cyno's a bit more strategically rather than just 'whenever you want' is going to heavily affect Alliances/Corps ability to carry out Hot Drops. But this is all part of Eve's continuing evolution, by the sound of it, its not something that XL have really got to grips with, if its a problem with the previous 2 versions and is still a problem in their latest release, either shows a lack of will, or a lack of ability
Originally posted by Phry Probably one of the reasons why CCP are not only introducing Jump Fatigue to Eve Online, but also allowing cap ships to use low and null sec gates. That and the mechanics that surround how fast ships can travel within system should make null sec combat a bit more interesting, especially once Jump Fatigue is in, knowing that you need to be able to use cyno's a bit more strategically rather than just 'whenever you want' is going to heavily affect Alliances/Corps ability to carry out Hot Drops. But this is all part of Eve's continuing evolution, by the sound of it, its not something that XL have really got to grips with, if its a problem with the previous 2 versions and is still a problem in their latest release, either shows a lack of will, or a lack of ability
And because of resons stated above, neither of changes CCP is rolling out is going to help.
I figured this is what the game would become. As it is the community that guides such a game, and FFA PVP drives the game-play. This is the inevitable outcome with such a pairing. Get used to these words.. "Carebear..DEal with it, QQmore...Etc.."
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So, yes... ArcheAge is not the Ultimate Sandbox, but it's more sandbox than 99% of other MMO's.
Just because you make a graph and slap some words on it does not make AA a Sandbox game.
----
Name just one Sandbox feature that AA has, JUST ONE. Please don't say zoned prefabricated housing because that is not sandbox, free terraforming and custom built housing would be.
----
Where is the Sand in this box and where are the tools to manipulate said Sand?
Zerging is one of the biggest issue in open world pvp and can only be handled with creating limited zones which in itself turns into a non-instanced-battleground or giving huge buffs to the underdogs.
Didnt read all replies in detail so i dont know if were mentioned allready:
The castle sieges in Auroria is limit to 100 attackers vs 75 defenders in 1st minuts and then defenders can call more 25players at some point. This is done so the zerg guilds dont have advantage in Auroria, the most important place to guilds power.
And to do that they had to end with OWPvP and create rules like a instance PvP. Zerg guilds can control Freedich island and other OwPvP spots but not the most important one in-game imo. Ofc Zerg guilds will have some advantages now because they farm "power" quicker then others, but time will balance it and only good guilds will take place in Auroria.
I remember something similar back on the Dread server in shadowbane. One guild subgagated most of the server. Eventually all the smaller guilds who could still put up a fight were squeezed out by further developer interferance. They re-rolled on other servers, and there was no one left to fight. The server died shortly after that.
Originally posted by holdenhamlet So I'm on Tahyang with Oran'thul and they basically control everything. I've read about other servers having their own zerg guild issues.
What's the point of playing a sandbox PVP game if you can never win?
Get organised.
I play Harani and our answer to big red zerg guilds was to build trusted alliances.
So, yeah, less complaining about it being unfair and more getting organised and taking it back.
Get in to TS with other guilds, support them on TRs and make sure you get with them for Hasla or whatever.
Get organized? Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, when dealing with the Chinese players who took over shadowbane, we organized every guild on the server. Even then it was still a 10v1 ratio. Your comment implies its the minorities fault in an attempt to keep AA looking shiny. Typical.
So, yes... ArcheAge is not the Ultimate Sandbox, but it's more sandbox than 99% of other MMO's.
Just because you make a graph and slap some words on it does not make AA a Sandbox game.
----
Name just one Sandbox feature that AA has, JUST ONE. Please don't say zoned prefabricated housing because that is not sandbox, free terraforming and custom built housing would be.
----
Where is the Sand in this box and where are the tools to manipulate said Sand?
well then i start by pointing to the subject of this very topic :
"problem - Zerg guilds"
The conditions for such to exist as "problem" are : seamless persistant world, player driven economy / features, FFA PvP.
No needto go further, lotsa sand already at this point.
Large guilds do have their advantage but I do wonder if MMOs would fare better with smaller groups like the pen and paper games have.
How do you prevent people teaming up?
How do you prevent teaming up from being a problem?
That is the better question. And, as it turns out, two PvP games do not seem to have had major issues with zergs totally locking everyone else out. EvE, and Darkfall, an unlikely pair. Both EvE and DFO/DFUW have only one server, and are huge areas that take some time to traverse, even with the available fast transportation. After many years, there are still smaller groups seizing spaceturf in EvE, even as huge zergs dominate large areas. In DFO, there were two 'world wars' fought by massive zerg alliances, and after that the territory was taken by many smaller groups. In both games, there are constantly shifting alliances, internecine warfare, betrayals, rivalries, and near constant strife. It would seem that the answer to zerg domination of a server, is to only have one server, with a massive enough world for them to fight in.
Not that server based games can implement this fix, they would need a new backend infrastructure, and a game like AA would have to deal with the established land claims.
I think you bring up an important issue. In Archeage, you can pretty much get anywhere on the globe in an instant. Zerg guilds can rally hundreds of players to any point on the map. If you have a house on Freedich, you can teleport your entire guild to within feet of the turn in point.
Apparently in 1.7, they're doing away with houses on Freedich, which will help a lot with the control of that island, but I've also read that Trion isn't going to do it, so it's unclear.
But I think it would be great if there wasn't so much instant transportation. That way a zerg guild couldn't effectively be "everywhere at once".
I'm not sure about Eve and Darkfall, but it's my impression that there is meaningful travel time involved, which would limit how much global presence a zerg guild could have, and potentially introduce cool tactics like drawing them off somewhere else while your main force strikes somewhere. That's not really possible in this game as their zerg can just teleport to your main force when they figure out what's up.
@ Jabas re: Auroria:
Yes seiges are limited, but it looks like the initial claiming is totally zergable. Apparently there's only 2 entrances to the caves you need to mine, and there's no limit to how many people can be there.
Also, once claimed, a guild can apparently just use its tax money to buy out the seige scrolls and avoid ever being seiged.
Oran'thul controlled all 4 castles in Beta and there's little reason to think they won't do it on live.
Like I said, I'm pretty much sticking around to see how this castle thing shakes out. I'm a member of one of the largest guilds in the west and we are prepping for a castle, but the question is will we be able to overcome the zerg to get one? That's pretty much what I'm sticking around for to find out.
Comments
This argument makes the assumption that the big guilds can't get organized.
No, that argument makes an assumption that people should bother to fight large power blocks
I guess we'll see soon enough how that works out.
Zerg guilds is not a problem it is in fact a boon.
Guilds and alliances = social interactions.
The fact that not more mmos have zerg guilds actually means it is not very true to the mmo creed - that it is supposed to be MASSIVELY multiplayer online, not just multiplayer online.
Also no big guilds last forever - when it gets too big politics tends to rip it apart, so in the end it always balances itself.
Eventually, in competitive MMOs, politics or boredom tears big guilds down, only for new big guilds to take their place
Don't expect any small guilds to ever succeed in this type of game though. The big guilds will change places but that's about it. If you don't like it, you'll either have to join a big guild yourself, deal with it, or leave the game (lots of people choose the latter option).
As of note, the same factors that makes big guilds implode also makes big alliances implode, so any alliance of small guilds to overcome the big guilds tends to not last long either.
Oh, and Archeage might not be a sand box to the fullest extent, but isn't a theme park either past a certain point. Themeparks have rides (IE, constant progression PvE and oncoming PvE content). Archeage does not (in the end game)
How do you prevent teaming up from being a problem?
That is the better question. And, as it turns out, two PvP games do not seem to have had major issues with zergs totally locking everyone else out. EvE, and Darkfall, an unlikely pair. Both EvE and DFO/DFUW have only one server, and are huge areas that take some time to traverse, even with the available fast transportation. After many years, there are still smaller groups seizing spaceturf in EvE, even as huge zergs dominate large areas. In DFO, there were two 'world wars' fought by massive zerg alliances, and after that the territory was taken by many smaller groups. In both games, there are constantly shifting alliances, internecine warfare, betrayals, rivalries, and near constant strife. It would seem that the answer to zerg domination of a server, is to only have one server, with a massive enough world for them to fight in.
Not that server based games can implement this fix, they would need a new backend infrastructure, and a game like AA would have to deal with the established land claims.
You are confusing Sandbox with PVE in this case, because in an open world PVP MMO large guilds affect the game play... it is not because the game is "Sandboxy". If the MMO didn't have open world PVP to affect your progression then it would be easier.
This game is utterly broken bud. This problem was brought up many times on basis of what happened in Russia and Korea but as usual no solution. Game is just very badly designed and this point even devs don't have the fix.
it just doesn't fit neatly into either label, replace "sandbox" in your closing sentence with "player driven" and I'd say you would be spot on.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
EVE does suffer exactly same issue, the 0.0 area is stale and boring. It is also one of the major focus for upcoming expansions and expansions that will follow.
Darkfall is a dead game that has no population to create this isssue.
Welcome to how open world PVP MMO's work now.
Screw faction pride. Join a zerg guild or multiple guild alliance or don't bother competing.
Probably one of the reasons why CCP are not only introducing Jump Fatigue to Eve Online, but also allowing cap ships to use low and null sec gates. That and the mechanics that surround how fast ships can travel within system should make null sec combat a bit more interesting, especially once Jump Fatigue is in, knowing that you need to be able to use cyno's a bit more strategically rather than just 'whenever you want' is going to heavily affect Alliances/Corps ability to carry out Hot Drops. But this is all part of Eve's continuing evolution, by the sound of it, its not something that XL have really got to grips with, if its a problem with the previous 2 versions and is still a problem in their latest release, either shows a lack of will, or a lack of ability
And because of resons stated above, neither of changes CCP is rolling out is going to help.
The issue is not related to game mechanics.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Just because you make a graph and slap some words on it does not make AA a Sandbox game.
----
Name just one Sandbox feature that AA has, JUST ONE. Please don't say zoned prefabricated housing because that is not sandbox, free terraforming and custom built housing would be.
----
Where is the Sand in this box and where are the tools to manipulate said Sand?
Zerging is one of the biggest issue in open world pvp and can only be handled with creating limited zones which in itself turns into a non-instanced-battleground or giving huge buffs to the underdogs.
This is why I prefer instanced PvP.
Didnt read all replies in detail so i dont know if were mentioned allready:
The castle sieges in Auroria is limit to 100 attackers vs 75 defenders in 1st minuts and then defenders can call more 25players at some point. This is done so the zerg guilds dont have advantage in Auroria, the most important place to guilds power.
And to do that they had to end with OWPvP and create rules like a instance PvP. Zerg guilds can control Freedich island and other OwPvP spots but not the most important one in-game imo. Ofc Zerg guilds will have some advantages now because they farm "power" quicker then others, but time will balance it and only good guilds will take place in Auroria.
Get organized? Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, when dealing with the Chinese players who took over shadowbane, we organized every guild on the server. Even then it was still a 10v1 ratio. Your comment implies its the minorities fault in an attempt to keep AA looking shiny. Typical.
well then i start by pointing to the subject of this very topic :
"problem - Zerg guilds"
The conditions for such to exist as "problem" are : seamless persistant world, player driven economy / features, FFA PvP.
No needto go further, lotsa sand already at this point.
I think you bring up an important issue. In Archeage, you can pretty much get anywhere on the globe in an instant. Zerg guilds can rally hundreds of players to any point on the map. If you have a house on Freedich, you can teleport your entire guild to within feet of the turn in point.
Apparently in 1.7, they're doing away with houses on Freedich, which will help a lot with the control of that island, but I've also read that Trion isn't going to do it, so it's unclear.
But I think it would be great if there wasn't so much instant transportation. That way a zerg guild couldn't effectively be "everywhere at once".
I'm not sure about Eve and Darkfall, but it's my impression that there is meaningful travel time involved, which would limit how much global presence a zerg guild could have, and potentially introduce cool tactics like drawing them off somewhere else while your main force strikes somewhere. That's not really possible in this game as their zerg can just teleport to your main force when they figure out what's up.
@ Jabas re: Auroria:
Yes seiges are limited, but it looks like the initial claiming is totally zergable. Apparently there's only 2 entrances to the caves you need to mine, and there's no limit to how many people can be there.
Also, once claimed, a guild can apparently just use its tax money to buy out the seige scrolls and avoid ever being seiged.
Oran'thul controlled all 4 castles in Beta and there's little reason to think they won't do it on live.
Like I said, I'm pretty much sticking around to see how this castle thing shakes out. I'm a member of one of the largest guilds in the west and we are prepping for a castle, but the question is will we be able to overcome the zerg to get one? That's pretty much what I'm sticking around for to find out.