Originally posted by Gestankfaust Why in the nine hells are we still arguing this??!?!?!
Because the definition of "P2W" is not a fact but more related to each user perpective, just like the "grind".
Imo most around here from both sides are right.
Opinion does not dictate what words do or do not mean.
P2W has and always will mean paying for an advantage over someone that does not.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by Gestankfaust Why in the nine hells are we still arguing this??!?!?!
Because the definition of "P2W" is not a fact but more related to each user perpective, just like the "grind".
Imo most around here from both sides are right.
Opinion does not dictate what words do or do not mean.
P2W has and always will mean paying for an advantage over someone that does not.
And that def makes this game pay 2 win. Its hard to own more than 3 properties with out paying extra money. If you do, you wont have enough labor to grow anything, so it will be useless to have property anyways lol.
This game is 100% pay2win...the best gear in the game doesn't bind to your character, sell a few apex for 300 gold each and you can stomp anyone, even pvp honor enchants can be sold/bought without having to kill a single person or step foot in the arena.
P2W has and always will mean paying for an advantage over someone that does not.
In that regard, any game is P2W.
As I said before, P2W is meaningless, empty term.
This can't be right. Take an old game like Ryzom, there is no cash shop. No way to buy anything. How can that game be pay-2-win? Of course, the F2P players are limited in what they can achieve, limited to lvl 125 where a paying player can get to 250. But there is no way to spend money where one sub member gets an advantage over another sub member.
Or let's say a game has a cash shop, but it only has fluff items like new non-functional pets, or different non-functional clothes. How can this be pay to win?
Any game that has a mechanism that allows the player to spend real cash on an item that has a function in the game, is pay-2-win. The flip side is a game where once you have subbed, you have access to the whole game, and there is no mechanism to buy any functional item, like Ryzom. Not pay-2-win.
And let's be honest; the only reason to spend real money in a game is to avoid having to earn the same item by playing the game. Unless you can buy items that are not available in the game by playing. That would be the extreme case of pay-2-win.
Pretty much every game is "P2W" nowdays. You just have to accept it.
You can buy your way into any game the real difference is that some games promote and allow you to P2W while other games it is shady or against TOS.
I've personally come into the conclusion that in F2P games it's not worth putting a dime in because the model usually promotes heavy spending and your 15-20 bucks a month usually isn't enough to stay "competitive".
Games that have subscription/VIP and nothing else terms of cash shop are fine because there's a cap on benefits you can purchase with money. Unfortunately even these games are riddled with gold sellers and bots which allow this gray area/TOS violation.
In most cases you are better off playing F2P games FREE. Unless you need to unlock content through payment.
One thing worth mentioning is that some games heavily promote multiboxing (playing multiple accounts at the same time) so your competitiveness might require even more than just paying a sub/vip.
Pretty much every game is "P2W" nowdays. You just have to accept it.
You can buy your way into any game the real difference is that some games promote and allow you to P2W while other games it is shady or against TOS.
I've personally come into the conclusion that in F2P games it's not worth putting a dime in because the model usually promotes heavy spending and your 15-20 bucks a month usually isn't enough to stay "competitive".
Games that have subscription/VIP and nothing else terms of cash shop are fine because there's a cap on benefits you can purchase with money. Unfortunately even these games are riddled with gold sellers and bots which allow this gray area/TOS violation.
In most cases you are better off playing F2P games FREE. Unless you need to unlock content through payment.
One thing worth mentioning is that some games heavily promote multiboxing (playing multiple accounts at the same time) so your competitiveness might require even more than just paying a sub/vip.
Unless they changed it Elder scrolls online isnt p2w, Heros of newarth isnt pay to win, ryzom as already stated isnt pay to win, world war 2 online isnt pay 2 win, Lord of the rings isnt pay 2 win, ethier is dungeons and dragons online.
Lets find out what the majority of mmorpg.com members believe
My personal belief is that:
If real money is a competitive factor in an MMORPG then it is a P2W game. Therefore I believe that Archeage is a P2W game.
Whats your belief and why?
Pay to win means that you pay money to be better than anyone else can be without paying, it means someone with a credit card will destroy all players that play for free or be far stronger than anyone else can be. There are almost no mmo titles that are pay to win.
The problem with "pay to win" is that everyone classes it differently. If you count pay to win as pay for convenience (xp boosts/buying gold) then every mmo is pay to win, even games without any cash shop have rmt stores that sell gold so it exists no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's sanctioned by the company or not, it still exists.
Lets find out what the majority of mmorpg.com members believe
My personal belief is that:
If real money is a competitive factor in an MMORPG then it is a P2W game. Therefore I believe that Archeage is a P2W game.
Whats your belief and why?
Pay to win means that you pay money to be better than anyone else can be without paying, it means someone with a credit card will destroy all players that play for free or be far stronger than anyone else can be. There are almost no mmo titles that are pay to win.
The problem with "pay to win" is that everyone classes it differently. If you count pay to win as pay for convenience (xp boosts/buying gold) then every mmo is pay to win, even games without any cash shop have rmt stores that sell gold so it exists no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's sanctioned by the company or not, it still exists.
It does matter if it is sanctioned or not. Getting caught buying gold in WoW will get you banned. Buying gold from Trion is as easy as using the cash shop. Period. That is a huge difference. One is a byproduct of the mmo industry and one is a very definite ploy by a company to garner as much money out of whales as possible.
Although the definition of P2W has not really been nailed down yet being a Patron of ArcheAge put no-Patrons at a severe disadvantage so if AA isn't strictly P2W it does touch on the edges and blurs the lines.
Originally posted by mbd1968 Although the definition of P2W has not really been nailed down yet being a Patron of ArcheAge put no-Patrons at a severe disadvantage so if AA isn't strictly P2W it does touch on the edges and blurs the lines.
I think the term P2W might not quite do the system justice but it's simply easier than say P2HASA (Pay to have a severe advantage) that you might as well just say "Win."
Lets find out what the majority of mmorpg.com members believe
My personal belief is that:
If real money is a competitive factor in an MMORPG then it is a P2W game. Therefore I believe that Archeage is a P2W game.
Whats your belief and why?
Pay to win means that you pay money to be better than anyone else can be without paying, it means someone with a credit card will destroy all players that play for free or be far stronger than anyone else can be. There are almost no mmo titles that are pay to win.
The problem with "pay to win" is that everyone classes it differently. If you count pay to win as pay for convenience (xp boosts/buying gold) then every mmo is pay to win, even games without any cash shop have rmt stores that sell gold so it exists no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's sanctioned by the company or not, it still exists.
Well.... I guess Monopoly and every other game ever invented is P2W too, because I just payed my grandson 5$ in real money for Boardwalk.
Funny thing is... He thinks I'm a dumbass for doing it. Hopefully when he grows up, he'll be able to maintain this level of common sense.
Lets find out what the majority of mmorpg.com members believe
My personal belief is that:
If real money is a competitive factor in an MMORPG then it is a P2W game. Therefore I believe that Archeage is a P2W game.
Whats your belief and why?
Pay to win means that you pay money to be better than anyone else can be without paying, it means someone with a credit card will destroy all players that play for free or be far stronger than anyone else can be. There are almost no mmo titles that are pay to win.
The problem with "pay to win" is that everyone classes it differently. If you count pay to win as pay for convenience (xp boosts/buying gold) then every mmo is pay to win, even games without any cash shop have rmt stores that sell gold so it exists no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's sanctioned by the company or not, it still exists.
Well.... I guess Monopoly and every other game ever invented is P2W too, because I just payed my grandson 5$ in real money for Boardwalk.
Funny thing is... He thinks I'm a dumbass for doing it. Hopefully when he grows up, he'll be able to maintain this level of common sense.
You taught him a very valuable lesson.
If you have money you can spend it to take short cuts and get ahead.
Nothing wrong with that.
Not sure why people try and hide this. Its almost like they feel something is wrong about it.
Lets find out what the majority of mmorpg.com members believe
My personal belief is that:
If real money is a competitive factor in an MMORPG then it is a P2W game. Therefore I believe that Archeage is a P2W game.
Whats your belief and why?
Pay to win means that you pay money to be better than anyone else can be without paying, it means someone with a credit card will destroy all players that play for free or be far stronger than anyone else can be. There are almost no mmo titles that are pay to win.
The problem with "pay to win" is that everyone classes it differently. If you count pay to win as pay for convenience (xp boosts/buying gold) then every mmo is pay to win, even games without any cash shop have rmt stores that sell gold so it exists no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's sanctioned by the company or not, it still exists.
Well.... I guess Monopoly and every other game ever invented is P2W too, because I just payed my grandson 5$ in real money for Boardwalk.
Funny thing is... He thinks I'm a dumbass for doing it. Hopefully when he grows up, he'll be able to maintain this level of common sense.
You taught him a very valuable lesson.
If you have money you can spend it to take short cuts and get ahead.
Nothing wrong with that.
Not sure why people try and hide this. Its almost like they feel something is wrong about it.
The biggest lesson he learned is that people just don't know how to play a game anymore and that you can make a fuck ton of money taking advantage of superiority complexes.
He understands that the people with the brains are on the receiving end of all that cash.
Lets find out what the majority of mmorpg.com members believe
My personal belief is that:
If real money is a competitive factor in an MMORPG then it is a P2W game. Therefore I believe that Archeage is a P2W game.
Whats your belief and why?
Pay to win means that you pay money to be better than anyone else can be without paying, it means someone with a credit card will destroy all players that play for free or be far stronger than anyone else can be. There are almost no mmo titles that are pay to win.
The problem with "pay to win" is that everyone classes it differently. If you count pay to win as pay for convenience (xp boosts/buying gold) then every mmo is pay to win, even games without any cash shop have rmt stores that sell gold so it exists no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's sanctioned by the company or not, it still exists.
Well.... I guess Monopoly and every other game ever invented is P2W too, because I just payed my grandson 5$ in real money for Boardwalk.
Funny thing is... He thinks I'm a dumbass for doing it. Hopefully when he grows up, he'll be able to maintain this level of common sense.
You taught him a very valuable lesson.
If you have money you can spend it to take short cuts and get ahead.
Nothing wrong with that.
Not sure why people try and hide this. Its almost like they feel something is wrong about it.
The biggest lesson he learned is that people just don't know how to play a game anymore and that you can make a fuck ton of money taking advantage of superiority complexes.
He understands that the people with the brains are on the receiving end of all that cash.
In this discussion you are the whale and he is Trion.
So you taught him you have no brains........ok.
And nothing is wrong with P2W.
Which is what I said. No reason to hide p2w unless you think there is something wrong.
Lets find out what the majority of mmorpg.com members believe
My personal belief is that:
If real money is a competitive factor in an MMORPG then it is a P2W game. Therefore I believe that Archeage is a P2W game.
Whats your belief and why?
Pay to win means that you pay money to be better than anyone else can be without paying, it means someone with a credit card will destroy all players that play for free or be far stronger than anyone else can be. There are almost no mmo titles that are pay to win.
The problem with "pay to win" is that everyone classes it differently. If you count pay to win as pay for convenience (xp boosts/buying gold) then every mmo is pay to win, even games without any cash shop have rmt stores that sell gold so it exists no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's sanctioned by the company or not, it still exists.
Well.... I guess Monopoly and every other game ever invented is P2W too, because I just payed my grandson 5$ in real money for Boardwalk.
Funny thing is... He thinks I'm a dumbass for doing it. Hopefully when he grows up, he'll be able to maintain this level of common sense.
You taught him a very valuable lesson.
If you have money you can spend it to take short cuts and get ahead.
Nothing wrong with that.
Not sure why people try and hide this. Its almost like they feel something is wrong about it.
The biggest lesson he learned is that people just don't know how to play a game anymore and that you can make a fuck ton of money taking advantage of superiority complexes.
He understands that the people with the brains are on the receiving end of all that cash.
In this discussion you are the whale and he is Trion.
So you taught him you have no brains........ok.
And nothing is wrong with P2W.
Which is what I said. No reason to hide p2w unless you think there is something wrong.
I don't think we are going to catch our tails.
Actually I was trying to demonstrate that saying all MMORPG's are P2W is ludicrous. Because using this logic, even "Old Maid" , "Fish" and "Snakes and Ladders" is P2W.
Saying the business model is fine because you're OK with it is one thing but justifying it because people cheat and buy illegal RMT in other games, is another.
Last time I checked Cheating still means Cheating. Some would rather call it P2W probably easier on their self esteem.
Incidentally has anyone realized just how dead the game is these days? I just checked the server status on EU, they're all on "UP" during evening prime time. Not a single one on "HEAVY", let alone "QUEUE".
The game is dying guys, I think we can all put our pitch forks away.
Comments
Probably that he is not allowed to discuss other peoples information.
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
Opinion does not dictate what words do or do not mean.
P2W has and always will mean paying for an advantage over someone that does not.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
And that def makes this game pay 2 win. Its hard to own more than 3 properties with out paying extra money. If you do, you wont have enough labor to grow anything, so it will be useless to have property anyways lol.
Archeage EU - Nui
In that regard, any game is P2W.
As I said before, P2W is meaningless, empty term.
This can't be right. Take an old game like Ryzom, there is no cash shop. No way to buy anything. How can that game be pay-2-win? Of course, the F2P players are limited in what they can achieve, limited to lvl 125 where a paying player can get to 250. But there is no way to spend money where one sub member gets an advantage over another sub member.
Or let's say a game has a cash shop, but it only has fluff items like new non-functional pets, or different non-functional clothes. How can this be pay to win?
Any game that has a mechanism that allows the player to spend real cash on an item that has a function in the game, is pay-2-win. The flip side is a game where once you have subbed, you have access to the whole game, and there is no mechanism to buy any functional item, like Ryzom. Not pay-2-win.
And let's be honest; the only reason to spend real money in a game is to avoid having to earn the same item by playing the game. Unless you can buy items that are not available in the game by playing. That would be the extreme case of pay-2-win.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
Pretty much every game is "P2W" nowdays. You just have to accept it.
You can buy your way into any game the real difference is that some games promote and allow you to P2W while other games it is shady or against TOS.
I've personally come into the conclusion that in F2P games it's not worth putting a dime in because the model usually promotes heavy spending and your 15-20 bucks a month usually isn't enough to stay "competitive".
Games that have subscription/VIP and nothing else terms of cash shop are fine because there's a cap on benefits you can purchase with money. Unfortunately even these games are riddled with gold sellers and bots which allow this gray area/TOS violation.
In most cases you are better off playing F2P games FREE. Unless you need to unlock content through payment.
One thing worth mentioning is that some games heavily promote multiboxing (playing multiple accounts at the same time) so your competitiveness might require even more than just paying a sub/vip.
There you go.
Anything else from that point you said is just promotion of your own perception on what is "fair", what is "advantage", etc.
Not just today, it always has been that way.
Having more accounts and multiboxing was always giving an advantage, just people did not make as much fuss about it.
Also it was more difficult. Firing up a bot doesn't take anything but a swipe of credit card and it's already farming for you.
Unless they changed it Elder scrolls online isnt p2w, Heros of newarth isnt pay to win, ryzom as already stated isnt pay to win, world war 2 online isnt pay 2 win, Lord of the rings isnt pay 2 win, ethier is dungeons and dragons online.
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
Pay to win means that you pay money to be better than anyone else can be without paying, it means someone with a credit card will destroy all players that play for free or be far stronger than anyone else can be. There are almost no mmo titles that are pay to win.
The problem with "pay to win" is that everyone classes it differently. If you count pay to win as pay for convenience (xp boosts/buying gold) then every mmo is pay to win, even games without any cash shop have rmt stores that sell gold so it exists no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's sanctioned by the company or not, it still exists.
It does matter if it is sanctioned or not. Getting caught buying gold in WoW will get you banned. Buying gold from Trion is as easy as using the cash shop. Period. That is a huge difference. One is a byproduct of the mmo industry and one is a very definite ploy by a company to garner as much money out of whales as possible.
I think the term P2W might not quite do the system justice but it's simply easier than say P2HASA (Pay to have a severe advantage) that you might as well just say "Win."
Well.... I guess Monopoly and every other game ever invented is P2W too, because I just payed my grandson 5$ in real money for Boardwalk.
Funny thing is... He thinks I'm a dumbass for doing it. Hopefully when he grows up, he'll be able to maintain this level of common sense.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
You taught him a very valuable lesson.
If you have money you can spend it to take short cuts and get ahead.
Nothing wrong with that.
Not sure why people try and hide this. Its almost like they feel something is wrong about it.
The biggest lesson he learned is that people just don't know how to play a game anymore and that you can make a fuck ton of money taking advantage of superiority complexes.
He understands that the people with the brains are on the receiving end of all that cash.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
In this discussion you are the whale and he is Trion.
So you taught him you have no brains........ok.
And nothing is wrong with P2W.
Which is what I said. No reason to hide p2w unless you think there is something wrong.
I don't think we are going to catch our tails.
Every mmo have some type of pay to win and cash grab, is all about how much one can play that mmo be for really gets to you.
No one safe from any company that want to make money, they will make people find a way to pay.
Actually I was trying to demonstrate that saying all MMORPG's are P2W is ludicrous. Because using this logic, even "Old Maid" , "Fish" and "Snakes and Ladders" is P2W.
Saying the business model is fine because you're OK with it is one thing but justifying it because people cheat and buy illegal RMT in other games, is another.
Last time I checked Cheating still means Cheating. Some would rather call it P2W probably easier on their self esteem.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Incidentally has anyone realized just how dead the game is these days? I just checked the server status on EU, they're all on "UP" during evening prime time. Not a single one on "HEAVY", let alone "QUEUE".
The game is dying guys, I think we can all put our pitch forks away.