I am against POS Companies cheating their customers. They should be providing a product and service that is proper to what that product and service is. However, it is exactly those companies that will eventually see just how much they are destroying their own futures. In time, there will be no fight... I will have no competition.
That's fine, and I respect where you are coming from.
It was never the ideology I posted on, but on the perceived notion that those that disagree with should be categorized and demeaned.
I vote with my wallet on things of this sort, hence why I've not given a cent.
P2W definition like almost other definitions related to mmos (even the "mmo" itself) is subjective, thats why discuss like this dont have the "final period".
Its nice, and thats why i come here, to discuss and see diferent prespective about some matters but is allways sad see those who dont accept diferent opinion and even try to ofend those who thing diferent.
Forums are made to discuss ideas and if they are diferent better even, its weird those who dont acept others ideas come to a place like this, dont bring nothing good to discuss, only try to force their own ideas and ofend all those who dont accept it. History had / have alot of people trying to do this and never ends well.
Freedom of speech only works when we respect the others freedom of speech.
We have seen all the explanations and definitions of the term and the meanings and the philosophical questions about what you can actually win in an MMO.
But all that really is meaningless.
It's about the reality of ArcheAge. What's really going on in the game? Who are the players who are dominating everything? Who are the most accomplished players. Who owns the most land? Who has the most gold? And yes, who has the best gear? An then of course, How did they get it?
If the top players of AA got where they are due to RMT, then the game is P2W. If there are enough accomplished patrons at the top of the food chain who did not spend much, then that is the best argument for AA not being P2W. But unfortunately, this is very difficult to tell.
It would be interesting the see a breakdown of the top 100 most accomplished players in AA. And a list of the top 100 biggest spenders in AA. If the lists contain the same names, then you have your answer. But no one outside of Trio has access to such a list.
Some of the top guilds aren't doing it through RMT. They're doing it through organized trade runs.
I think a lot of you are putting way to much stock into the whole "selling APEX for gold" thing, and not realizing that you can make more than enough gold to buy the same stuff without selling APEX.
That's not to say that people aren't using APEX to get things faster, or even guilds aren't doing that, but having better gear than the next guy doesn't make you better. Yes, gear helps, but it's not as big an impact as people make it out to be; there's a lot more to it than that, and the game has a huge emphasis on group play and teamwork.
Some of the top guilds on my server are earning their gold through massive, organized trade runs, not by spending craptons of money in the marketplace.
Nor does it matter if an entire guild is supported through APEX selling, the gear they would buy has to be available, but before that you need the materials, and gold isn't going to make those things appear any faster.
EVE is way more P2W than AA. I can sell PLEX on day one and buy a multimillion SP character. I can't even get into the top end gear in AA no matter how many APEX I sell, and that gear isn't an automatic win if I was actually able to buy it, I still need to be good at PvP.
The real winners are the guys that are selling things to the whales. I could care less fi that guy is in better gear, he's not better at his class than me, but I'm sure happy to sell goods to him for that gold he paid real money for.
Nor does it matter if an entire guild is supported through APEX selling, the gear they would buy has to be available, but before that you need the materials, and gold isn't going to make those things appear any faster.
....
Uh, I dunno, last I checked gold bought stuff like crafting materials and labour pots on the AH...
And the rate at which crafting materials appear ingame is only limited by how much RL cash you want to spend per hour opening Cash Shop lockboxes...
Originally posted by Mivi more than 99% of online games are p2w then. where is the problem with archeage? or this above definition isn't quite right?
Good, you can be taught!
That is step one.
Now...
Think about it.
Name MMORPGs that you can play at $50 per month and stand toe to toe with the majority of heavy cash shoppers in them.
That is where MMORPGs should be at today.
That is nowhere near where MMORPGs are at though, is it?
if the question is for me then I reply: archeage but in truth I reply: any game I wish so. and with 0$. not more. but I have the unfair advantage to have worked as mmo developer and the differential of competence is simply abyssal. infact if the question was for me, but you mean the average player, the reply should be no one. if a game allow an average player to spend thousand of money on it and the progression is arithmetical there's no way in hell or earth another average player that spend 50$ could fight on equal ground. especially if is an rpg. on the other hand if such rich investment does not traslate into a promised powercrep advantage the player won't spend such amount of money. is a non-problem. no one produce these games, money spent and advantage gained always follow diminishing return patterns, so does the time variable, nor mmorpgs which revolving around 1vs1 are produced either, is a masochist unbalanceable mess. group content is the way. 1vs1 if present is either collateral, sided, provide the least snowballing as possible. (well there are exceptions, chinese coff browser games coff coff.)
sadly, people get angry because they are trapped in the false paradigma that whatever is not in their games today, must be surely better. or the business models that they are getting aren't the best compromise possible. both false
It is not a matter of opinion. ArcheAge is pay to win, and that is a fact.
What people believe or not may vary.
Facts are facts.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
It is not a matter of opinion. ArcheAge is pay to win, and that is a fact.
What people believe or not may vary.
Facts are facts.
You may believe that fact are facts., but others don´t. You are entitled to your opinion too.
It is as much of an opinion as that the Sun is a star. Someone may believe it's a shiny cosmic disk sent by god to illuminate our world. Fact is, the Sun is a star.
In ArcheAge if you pay, you win over those that don't in all aspects of the game assuming they invest similar amounts of time in it. Fact.
An opinion is discussing if ArcheAge's business model is good, or if it is bad, or if it is fair or not. Or discussing if its dungeons are easy, or are hard. Those are opinions.
That ArcheAge is Pay to Win is not an opinion, is a hard fact. It is not up to discussion or debate. It simply is.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
It is not a matter of opinion. ArcheAge is pay to win, and that is a fact.
What people believe or not may vary.
Facts are facts.
You may believe that fact are facts., but others don´t. You are entitled to your opinion too.
It is as much of an opinion as that the Sun is a star. Someone may believe it's a shiny cosmic disk sent by god to illuminate our world. Fact is, the Sun is a star.
In ArcheAge if you pay, you win over those that don't in all aspects of the game assuming they invest similar amounts of time in it. Fact.
An opinion is discussing if ArcheAge's business model is good, or if it is bad, or if it is fair or not. Or discussing if its dungeons are easy, or are hard. Those are opinions.
That ArcheAge is Pay to Win is not an opinion, is a hard fact. It is not up to discussion or debate. It simply is.
I share your opinion somewhat, but declaring something to be a fact does not make it a fact. That is my opinion. The OP even seems to think it is a matter of belief.
Overall, ArcheAge is just a terrible excuse for a game. It was a brave yet foolish move on Trion's part to pick this up for the U.S., but then again, AA looked incredibly promising in the beginning, prior to the jaw-dropping-ly horrid promo video displaying "hot rods" as mounts. That should have been their cue to say, "Thanks, but no thanks."
It is not a matter of opinion. ArcheAge is pay to win, and that is a fact.
What people believe or not may vary.
Facts are facts.
You may believe that fact are facts., but others don´t. You are entitled to your opinion too.
It is as much of an opinion as that the Sun is a star. Someone may believe it's a shiny cosmic disk sent by god to illuminate our world. Fact is, the Sun is a star.
In ArcheAge if you pay, you win over those that don't in all aspects of the game assuming they invest similar amounts of time in it. Fact.
An opinion is discussing if ArcheAge's business model is good, or if it is bad, or if it is fair or not. Or discussing if its dungeons are easy, or are hard. Those are opinions.
That ArcheAge is Pay to Win is not an opinion, is a hard fact. It is not up to discussion or debate. It simply is.
I share your opinion somewhat, but declaring something to be a fact does not make it a fact. That is my opinion. The OP even seems to think it is a matter of belief.
Actually since there is no hard definition it all comes down to a matter of opinion and I want to read peoples views of the why or why not... instead of arguing over semantics about how I worded the question.
no its not p2w ..its a game that you can either play for free and NOT play fully or play with a monthly fee and play the game fully
there is nothing on the item shop that you can buy and 1 or 2 shot ppl with uber weapons or gear in pvp ..imo thats p2w "atleast when i played there wasnt lol'
paying a monthly fee is not p2w..paying the monthly fee just gives you an edge in lvling and crafting other than f2p is slower
but i havent played in a long time maybe some things have changed
A person who plays and pays a lot will beat a person who plays a lot in Archeage.
If that's not pay-to-win to you, so be it. One thing it certainly is, however, is bad for the health of the game, as per R2Games' business presentation (and since they make 27 mill a month, I trust their word over anyone who says otherwise). And businesses know that. But hey, if that's fine with you, then so be it, too.
For most people, as shown by Archeage's rapidly shrinking population all across the world, that's obviously not fine. C'est la vie.
Thats why there are 2 terms which mean 2 different things.
Even in one dimensional games a advantage indicates a higher chance to win . In tennis for example it means you "about to win" the next point..
More so in MMORPG with so much complex "winning conditions" the question still stands.
Win ..exactly ...WHAT ???
having advantage in exactly ...WHAT ???
Now imagine that you could whip out your credit card in the middle of that tennis match and instantly pay for the score to be adjusted so that you have "advantage"...
You haven't paid to win, so that should be perfectly acceptable, not so ?
You cannot empirically define the "winning condition" in a normal MMORPG. That so-called "win" is whatever the individual players define it to be for themselves. That fact and the perceptions around it will not change, regardless of how loudly you scream that everyone else's feelings are not valid.
Its not pay to win as in buying high end gear directly for money.
But you can pay to skip endles amounts of pve like weeks of farming / tractor runs by buyin Apex and selling it on the AH.
On Dahuta EU 1 apex is 360 gold atm - an avereage tradepack is 7 / 8 gold so it equals 45 packs. You can drive with 7 packs at a time and that takes around 30 min per run. Not calculating certificate and mat prices you have around 5 gold profit per pack x 7 = 35 gold profit.
So yeah its endles amount of boring stuff to gain gold to be able to buy / craft / regrade gear.
Regrading is so RNG that most people who do not pull their wallets gave up on it. I failed 8 times in a row... it costed me thousands of gold -_-
This mmo is made for whales and only the whales will stick around long enough to see almost BiS gear / weapons.
Unless ! you have a whole guild working as single unit to gear out each member but those are few and can create a ton of drama.
Archeage EU/USA focus has been way to much on the cash shop and thats sad as this mmo could have been much more then that.
Not even speaking about all the exploits and hacks going rampart lol. Trion messed this mmo up beyond repair.
TLDR:
Pay to skip months and months of time with your wallet.
Interesting.... "Laserlit is the most intelligent person on the forums" is running a close third to "AA is not p2w". To be honest I thought he would easily secure 2nd place given the options.
Comments
That's fine, and I respect where you are coming from.
It was never the ideology I posted on, but on the perceived notion that those that disagree with should be categorized and demeaned.
I vote with my wallet on things of this sort, hence why I've not given a cent.
So give us the Oxford definition of pay to win please.
P2W definition like almost other definitions related to mmos (even the "mmo" itself) is subjective, thats why discuss like this dont have the "final period".
Its nice, and thats why i come here, to discuss and see diferent prespective about some matters but is allways sad see those who dont accept diferent opinion and even try to ofend those who thing diferent.
Forums are made to discuss ideas and if they are diferent better even, its weird those who dont acept others ideas come to a place like this, dont bring nothing good to discuss, only try to force their own ideas and ofend all those who dont accept it. History had / have alot of people trying to do this and never ends well.
Freedom of speech only works when we respect the others freedom of speech.
Some of the top guilds aren't doing it through RMT. They're doing it through organized trade runs.
I think a lot of you are putting way to much stock into the whole "selling APEX for gold" thing, and not realizing that you can make more than enough gold to buy the same stuff without selling APEX.
That's not to say that people aren't using APEX to get things faster, or even guilds aren't doing that, but having better gear than the next guy doesn't make you better. Yes, gear helps, but it's not as big an impact as people make it out to be; there's a lot more to it than that, and the game has a huge emphasis on group play and teamwork.
Some of the top guilds on my server are earning their gold through massive, organized trade runs, not by spending craptons of money in the marketplace.
Nor does it matter if an entire guild is supported through APEX selling, the gear they would buy has to be available, but before that you need the materials, and gold isn't going to make those things appear any faster.
EVE is way more P2W than AA. I can sell PLEX on day one and buy a multimillion SP character. I can't even get into the top end gear in AA no matter how many APEX I sell, and that gear isn't an automatic win if I was actually able to buy it, I still need to be good at PvP.
The real winners are the guys that are selling things to the whales. I could care less fi that guy is in better gear, he's not better at his class than me, but I'm sure happy to sell goods to him for that gold he paid real money for.
Uh, I dunno, last I checked gold bought stuff like crafting materials and labour pots on the AH...
And the rate at which crafting materials appear ingame is only limited by how much RL cash you want to spend per hour opening Cash Shop lockboxes...
if the question is for me then I reply: archeage
but in truth I reply: any game I wish so. and with 0$. not more.
but I have the unfair advantage to have worked as mmo developer and the differential of competence is simply abyssal.
infact if the question was for me, but you mean the average player, the reply should be no one.
if a game allow an average player to spend thousand of money on it and the progression is arithmetical there's no way in hell or earth another average player that spend 50$ could fight on equal ground. especially if is an rpg.
on the other hand if such rich investment does not traslate into a promised powercrep advantage the player won't spend such amount of money.
is a non-problem. no one produce these games, money spent and advantage gained always follow diminishing return patterns, so does the time variable, nor mmorpgs which revolving around 1vs1 are produced either, is a masochist unbalanceable mess. group content is the way. 1vs1 if present is either collateral, sided, provide the least snowballing as possible.
(well there are exceptions, chinese coff browser games coff coff.)
sadly, people get angry because they are trapped in the false paradigma that whatever is not in their games today, must be surely better. or the business models that they are getting aren't the best compromise possible. both false
It is not a matter of opinion. ArcheAge is pay to win, and that is a fact.
What people believe or not may vary.
Facts are facts.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
You may believe that fact are facts., but others don´t. You are entitled to your opinion though.
It takes one to know one.
It is as much of an opinion as that the Sun is a star. Someone may believe it's a shiny cosmic disk sent by god to illuminate our world. Fact is, the Sun is a star.
In ArcheAge if you pay, you win over those that don't in all aspects of the game assuming they invest similar amounts of time in it. Fact.
An opinion is discussing if ArcheAge's business model is good, or if it is bad, or if it is fair or not. Or discussing if its dungeons are easy, or are hard. Those are opinions.
That ArcheAge is Pay to Win is not an opinion, is a hard fact. It is not up to discussion or debate. It simply is.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
I share your opinion somewhat, but declaring something to be a fact does not make it a fact. That is my opinion. The OP even seems to think it is a matter of belief.
It takes one to know one.
Overall, ArcheAge is just a terrible excuse for a game. It was a brave yet foolish move on Trion's part to pick this up for the U.S., but then again, AA looked incredibly promising in the beginning, prior to the jaw-dropping-ly horrid promo video displaying "hot rods" as mounts. That should have been their cue to say, "Thanks, but no thanks."
Actually since there is no hard definition it all comes down to a matter of opinion and I want to read peoples views of the why or why not... instead of arguing over semantics about how I worded the question.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
no its not p2w ..its a game that you can either play for free and NOT play fully or play with a monthly fee and play the game fully
there is nothing on the item shop that you can buy and 1 or 2 shot ppl with uber weapons or gear in pvp ..imo thats p2w "atleast when i played there wasnt lol'
paying a monthly fee is not p2w..paying the monthly fee just gives you an edge in lvling and crafting other than f2p is slower
but i havent played in a long time maybe some things have changed
A person who plays and pays a lot will beat a person who plays a lot in Archeage.
If that's not pay-to-win to you, so be it. One thing it certainly is, however, is bad for the health of the game, as per R2Games' business presentation (and since they make 27 mill a month, I trust their word over anyone who says otherwise). And businesses know that. But hey, if that's fine with you, then so be it, too.
For most people, as shown by Archeage's rapidly shrinking population all across the world, that's obviously not fine. C'est la vie.
Advantage is not win.
Thats why there are 2 terms which mean 2 different things.
Even in one dimensional games a advantage indicates a higher chance to win . In tennis for example it means you "about to win" the next point..
More so in MMORPG with so much complex "winning conditions" the question still stands.
Win ..exactly ...WHAT ???
having advantage in exactly ...WHAT ???
Now imagine that you could whip out your credit card in the middle of that tennis match and instantly pay for the score to be adjusted so that you have "advantage"...
You haven't paid to win, so that should be perfectly acceptable, not so ?
You cannot empirically define the "winning condition" in a normal MMORPG. That so-called "win" is whatever the individual players define it to be for themselves. That fact and the perceptions around it will not change, regardless of how loudly you scream that everyone else's feelings are not valid.
Its not pay to win as in buying high end gear directly for money.
But you can pay to skip endles amounts of pve like weeks of farming / tractor runs by buyin Apex and selling it on the AH.
On Dahuta EU 1 apex is 360 gold atm - an avereage tradepack is 7 / 8 gold so it equals 45 packs.
You can drive with 7 packs at a time and that takes around 30 min per run.
Not calculating certificate and mat prices you have around 5 gold profit per pack x 7 = 35 gold profit.
So yeah its endles amount of boring stuff to gain gold to be able to buy / craft / regrade gear.
Regrading is so RNG that most people who do not pull their wallets gave up on it.
I failed 8 times in a row... it costed me thousands of gold -_-
This mmo is made for whales and only the whales will stick around long enough to see almost BiS gear / weapons.
Unless ! you have a whole guild working as single unit to gear out each member but those are few and can create a ton of drama.
Archeage EU/USA focus has been way to much on the cash shop and thats sad as this mmo could have been much more then that.
Not even speaking about all the exploits and hacks going rampart lol.
Trion messed this mmo up beyond repair.
TLDR:
Pay to skip months and months of time with your wallet.
Game revolves heavily around PvP in end game.
If I pay money I will beat someone who doesn't pay money .
If someone pays more money than me they will beat me .
Since gear is almost infinitely powerful ( not entirely true since mythic armor and weapons are best in slot )
Someone did the math on regarding items based on a hypothetical AH prices , it was 2.5 million gold .
Or if you pay it will be around $80,000 to $110,000 for full set of BiS items and 2h weapon if you were lucky on RNG.
most of that money is spent on Arcum boxes to get regrade materials .
Theses is only garantued true in the 1 x 1 arena. (probably , you could still suck not using the right skills andcombos)
Everywhere else its not true.