Yes is wrong if a game that does thing like casino like lockbox and other stuff, but mmo in market in general like if you kill a boss you get a random chance of a boss loot you may want this, and you spend so far 3 to 5 months on it, may or may never get it but people are use to this is how lockbox and other stuff become so easy addicted. If mmo don't change this never going away they need to get you to addicted to something to keep you playing for time or money, is not only free to play, sub does it as well.
Like if you don't see a wheel of a casino, don't mean is not there.
It still depends on wha the thing is in the lockbox, if you just can get skins and similar stuff then it matters little and if that makes you addicted it is kinda your own fault.
If it on the other hand actually drop really useful stuff you need you are right, it is bad indeed.
Of course what really should get you addicted to a MMO is the gameplay that should be addictive because it is fun, not real money lottery, dailies or minigames.
Yes is wrong if a game that does thing like casino like lockbox and other stuff, but mmo in market in general like if you kill a boss you get a random chance of a boss loot you may want this, and you spend so far 3 to 5 months on it, may or may never get it but people are use to this is how lockbox and other stuff become so easy addicted. If mmo don't change this never going away they need to get you to addicted to something to keep you playing for time or money, is not only free to play, sub does it as well.
Like if you don't see a wheel of a casino, don't mean is not there.
I see what you're saying but this is a hobby at the end of the day that should be played for fun and hopefully enjoyed with a lot of other players in the game. Beating a boss with a group or a raid is satisfying in itself and getting something is an added bonus. Obviously there HAS to be an incentive to beat the boss but this has been an RPG mechanic since the inception of video games. Simply sitting in a town, opening lockbox after lockbox for real money to get a dopamine rush when you finally get a good item after spending $300 is just not good game design and simply used to exploit the whales. With subscription games there is an upper limit what you can (legally) spend on the game and it makes you decide if you really like the GAME or if you are just after ITEMS.
Plenty of stuff can get you addicted and a subscription MMO is one of the more tame ones.
Yes is wrong if a game that does thing like casino like lockbox and other stuff, but mmo in market in general like if you kill a boss you get a random chance of a boss loot you may want this, and you spend so far 3 to 5 months on it, may or may never get it but people are use to this is how lockbox and other stuff become so easy addicted. If mmo don't change this never going away they need to get you to addicted to something to keep you playing for time or money, is not only free to play, sub does it as well.
Like if you don't see a wheel of a casino, don't mean is not there.
I see what you're saying but this is a hobby at the end of the day that should be played for fun and hopefully enjoyed with a lot of other players in the game. Beating a boss with a group or a raid is satisfying in itself and getting something is an added bonus. Obviously there HAS to be an incentive to beat the boss but this has been an RPG mechanic since the inception of video games. Simply sitting in a town, opening lockbox after lockbox for real money to get a dopamine rush when you finally get a good item after spending $300 is just not good game design and simply used to exploit the whales. With subscription games there is an upper limit what you can (legally) spend on the game and it makes you decide if you really like the GAME or if you are just after ITEMS.
Plenty of stuff can get you addicted and a subscription MMO is one of the more tame ones.
Just System like that make it easy to fall prey in to other system, don't end up happening to everyone but gets people ready to fall in to some other system there so use too, even spending money is a short cut at the end of the day that one who spend money or there months and months out end grind, they'll just feel a lot better when they end up getting it, people will grind months out end to get a item, if they can pay for it they will do it as is a short cut.
It just need to start somewhere and just need to be change how people get gear in mmo and other item, then will see less and less this casino like games, as they end up not selling it as people didn't far prey and they'll may end up doing better game play to keep people around.
Yes is wrong if a game that does thing like casino like lockbox and other stuff, but mmo in market in general like if you kill a boss you get a random chance of a boss loot you may want this, and you spend so far 3 to 5 months on it, may or may never get it but people are use to this is how lockbox and other stuff become so easy addicted. If mmo don't change this never going away they need to get you to addicted to something to keep you playing for time or money, is not only free to play, sub does it as well.
Like if you don't see a wheel of a casino, don't mean is not there.
It still depends on wha the thing is in the lockbox, if you just can get skins and similar stuff then it matters little and if that makes you addicted it is kinda your own fault.
If it on the other hand actually drop really useful stuff you need you are right, it is bad indeed.
Of course what really should get you addicted to a MMO is the gameplay that should be addictive because it is fun, not real money lottery, dailies or minigames.
What you get might not matter. Smokers know that they can get cancer, they still don't stop. Alcoholics know that they can get liver disease, still doesn't stop them. Gambling addicts know that they will lose in the end (or fool themselves very strongly into believing they will win) and continue playing because of the rush. Some even enjoy losing. Not everyone can get addicted to gambling and when you are it is not necessarily "your" fault. It's the fault of your genetic predisposition to having an addictive personality. These people need real help and can't just stop gambling.
F2p cash shop lockboxes, treasure chests, however you want to call them stimulate the same brain regions as gambling does and it is not far fetched to become addicted to them. Once again, what the reward is might not matter at all.
Treasure chests also add another layer of disguising the true cost of an item. You might be able to sell a mount in the cash shop for $20, but you might also be able to put it in a lockbox that costs $2 and have it drop every 25th time, effectively making the cost of the item $50 but it looks like you have a chance at the item for only $2.
This is on top of the fake currency (gems) that is already used to disguise the cost of cash shop items and entice you to buy a bigger amount than you initially planned. This is not rocket science, this is stuff that is happening in pretty much every f2p game.
So, spending money to get tickets in a game, which are then used to purchase a spin on a wheel (or lockbox) to win something "is" gambling.
Do you always get something? Yes
Is it usable in the game? Yes
is it always "worth" what you paid for it? No
Spending money on a pack of cards (Magic the Gathering) in a game store to "win" something is ... not?
Do you always get something? Yes
Is it usable in the game? Yes
is it always "worth" what you paid for it? No
Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going! --> http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs <-- Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
another thread of gambling in mmorpg o/ was almost time!
what define gambling that what is not gambling is dictate by the law of the state you are in but generally and raw is: bet something, into something that involve chance, win something
So, spending money to get tickets in a game, which are then used to purchase a spin on a wheel (or lockbox) to win something "is" gambling.
Do you always get something? Yes
Is it usable in the game? Yes
is it always "worth" what you paid for it? No
Spending money on a pack of cards (Magic the Gathering) in a game store to "win" something is ... not?
Do you always get something? Yes
Is it usable in the game? Yes
is it always "worth" what you paid for it? No
You can talk semantics all day. With real life Magic cards I would argue that there is at least some threshold that keeps you from going overboard. I see people buy an entire booster box (is that about 40 packs?) but rarely go over.
Hearthstone has introduced a whole new dimension of this phenomenon and I would now classify it as a very dangerous trend.
These are just 2 Youtubers who open 300 packs in a row. That comes out to $350 spent on virtual cards within one hour. Is this a sustainable and healthy behavior?
I knew people who would buy 3 booster boxes during launches, each box was easily $100 at the time. (I played during the M:tG Unlimited/Revised Era) The simple CHANCE at getting a Mox or a Lotus was having people drop tons of money and many times never seeing one.
Gambling? No
Unhealthy Behavior? Yes
Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going! --> http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs <-- Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
It still depends on wha the thing is in the lockbox, if you just can get skins and similar stuff then it matters little and if that makes you addicted it is kinda your own fault.
If it on the other hand actually drop really useful stuff you need you are right, it is bad indeed.
Of course what really should get you addicted to a MMO is the gameplay that should be addictive because it is fun, not real money lottery, dailies or minigames.
What you get might not matter. Smokers know that they can get cancer, they still don't stop. Alcoholics know that they can get liver disease, still doesn't stop them. Gambling addicts know that they will lose in the end (or fool themselves very strongly into believing they will win) and continue playing because of the rush. Some even enjoy losing. Not everyone can get addicted to gambling and when you are it is not necessarily "your" fault. It's the fault of your genetic predisposition to having an addictive personality. These people need real help and can't just stop gambling.
F2p cash shop lockboxes, treasure chests, however you want to call them stimulate the same brain regions as gambling does and it is not far fetched to become addicted to them. Once again, what the reward is might not matter at all.
Treasure chests also add another layer of disguising the true cost of an item. You might be able to sell a mount in the cash shop for $20, but you might also be able to put it in a lockbox that costs $2 and have it drop every 25th time, effectively making the cost of the item $50 but it looks like you have a chance at the item for only $2.
This is on top of the fake currency (gems) that is already used to disguise the cost of cash shop items and entice you to buy a bigger amount than you initially planned. This is not rocket science, this is stuff that is happening in pretty much every f2p game.
Of course it matters, if you get useful stuff it destroys the balance of the game.
And gambling is legal in most places at least.
Sure, it is somwhat muddy water but people who tend to get addicted with stuff like this will still find their fix somewhere else unless you forbid all kinds of gambling including lottery.
If you know you easily get addicted you should stay out of games with an itemshop just like you should stay out of a casino.
Not that I would protest the least if they put all crap like this away from games but making laws and mass protests are not a good way to go here, there are far more important issues in the world to get upset about (like war, starvation, actual crimes and so on). Just don't buy any crap, if we all do that they will soon go away.
I knew people who would buy 3 booster boxes during launches, each box was easily $120 at the time. (I played during the M:tG Unlimited/Revised Era) The simple CHANCE at getting a Mox or a Lotus was having people drop tons of money and many times never seeing one.
Gambling? No
Unhealthy Behavior? Yes
Does it matter then if buying lockboxes is gambling or not? It is unhealthy behavior by the same measures.
I don't care about the label, I care about the exploitation of the players by the developers of these games.
I knew people who would buy 3 booster boxes during launches, each box was easily $120 at the time. (I played during the M:tG Unlimited/Revised Era) The simple CHANCE at getting a Mox or a Lotus was having people drop tons of money and many times never seeing one.
Gambling? No
Unhealthy Behavior? Yes
Does it matter then if buying lockboxes is gambling or not? It is unhealthy behavior by the same measures.
I don't care about the label, I care about the exploitation of the players by the developers of these games.
Capitalist systems of economy are all about exploitation of those who are willing to pay for it.
Since this is a thread about scamming, and no one is being scammed, I see no issue here.
I know how to close my wallet, maybe every else needs to learn how to close theirs? No scam present
Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going! --> http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs <-- Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
Originally posted by Loke666 Of course it matters, if you get useful stuff it destroys the balance of the game.And gambling is legal in most places at least.Sure, it is somwhat muddy water but people who tend to get addicted with stuff like this will still find their fix somewhere else unless you forbid all kinds of gambling including lottery.If you know you easily get addicted you should stay out of games with an itemshop just like you should stay out of a casino.Not that I would protest the least if they put all crap like this away from games but making laws and mass protests are not a good way to go here, there are far more important issues in the world to get upset about (like war, starvation, actual crimes and so on). Just don't buy any crap, if we all do that they will soon go away.
I should have clarified that I don't even think gambling addicts in these games are caring about the items that much, hence not using them to their benefit. Obviously I don't condone pay2win schemes and am not and will never play a clear pay2win game (I played ArcheAge at the beginning before I saw through it).
Yes, you should stay away but the landscape of games has changed the past few years and most people haven't adapted. Also, as I said before, ALL online casinos MUST have mechanics that allow you to self-exclude yourself from playing and depositing money. This is required by law. There is no such law for games with cash shops, hence giving these people less protection than traditional gambling.
I don't think f2p games will go away if "we" stay away. I have never spent a cent on Candy Crush and I would assume most "core" gamers haven't either. King is still valued at $5 billion now.
So, spending money to get tickets in a game, which are then used to purchase a spin on a wheel (or lockbox) to win something "is" gambling.
Do you always get something? Yes
Is it usable in the game? Yes
is it always "worth" what you paid for it? No
Spending money on a pack of cards (Magic the Gathering) in a game store to "win" something is ... not?
Do you always get something? Yes
Is it usable in the game? Yes
is it always "worth" what you paid for it? No
You can talk semantics all day. With real life Magic cards I would argue that there is at least some threshold that keeps you from going overboard. I see people buy an entire booster box (is that about 40 packs?) but rarely go over.
Hearthstone has introduced a whole new dimension of this phenomenon and I would now classify it as a very dangerous trend.
These are just 2 Youtubers who open 300 packs in a row. That comes out to $350 spent on virtual cards within one hour. Is this a sustainable and healthy behavior?
Look at the human race as a whole - look at how we live, how we work and how we treat our environment on a global scale - are we as species showing healthy and sustainable behavior?
Why would you expect any different?
We still have the capacity to help and support each other even when it doesn't affect us personally. Sure we can say just close your wallet because some of us can but we can do more than that. For all of it's faults humanity has also demonstrated greatness at times.
Originally posted by Quirhid What game made you start this thread?
Good question, I think it started with Vindictus where I saw the technique at play, the content got increasingly harder and the requirements to join raids basically forced you to spend real life money, an endless money sink where you enchant items, only to lose them by chance when they break, a never ending casino type gameplay where chance is never on your side and players are spending thousands of dollars through addiction to the process.
It is sad that I am seeing this again in Archeage.
Now that I play FFXIV, I see that scamming people does not need to be part of the game.
How can you call it a scam, when people know exactly what they are paying for?
And Free to play does not equal Free to win. You can play for free. You just can't win.
Its like you said, a casino. Everyone knows the odds. Should we be speaking out against casinos too?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
So I feel people get scammed in F2P. F2P MMO use lots of ways to entice people to spend money in very dishonest ways.
...
Why are not more GAMERS speaking up AGAINST this.
The reality is that not many people are getting scammed by this. More people are getting scammed from TV infomercials than F2P. Sure, there are some people that make bad purchasing decisions, but the number is so small that no one really cares. People that get scammed are the equivalent of the Darwin Awards. Sure it is tragic, but is also a bit of perverse humor.
I agree with you. On a personal level meaning I think these practices suck. But the problem lies in people, with an issue regarding being too compulsive. I used to be a security guard is a casino and I would see it often.
Free drinks to decrease people's judgment, no clocks in sight so people cannot know how much time was wasted, pretty girls being social, reward benefits for spending a money. This is shady business practice but it's the people who empower it and the problem lies with the issues. In some free to play games - hell most of them, they have gambling as well and the motto is not much different. Provide an immersive environment and some people will drop a ton of cash.
The problem with some of these games is you try them out and sometimes you really enjoy them. You end up at a crossroad leave a game you like, accept not having the best and or most shinny stuff or spend some money - usually money that is worth a couple to several full games.
Anyway it's some of the people who jack the prices up. For every person sane enough to point out prices as too high. There is a whale throwing a ton of money at them. Believe it or not plenty of people will not drop cash on something priced too high on a game - so those people do stand against it and leave the game. But the ones who don't? Ruin it for everyone else. The game company does not care if you cannot afford everything, all they care about if taking the Whales money and empting their pockets. They are not interested in the idea of selling items less so everyone can afford them. They would still make money, maybe even more but whaling is easier.
That is my general problem with free to play, few are priced fair. They are designed for the rich and or compulsive spenders to have everything and the sane people can just do without.
So anytime I check out a new free to play game. I don't play the game. I check out the shop, right from the get go. If I find it too overpriced. I quit before ever giving myself a chance to like the game and rationalize spending anything.
This is a business model. It is no different then any other business model that takes advantage of stupid people with money to spend. It is not unfair in any way - you know exactly what you are getting into. Nothing is withheld, you make an investment in something, and you receive exactly what you pay for in return.
Companies are making hand over fist in these cash shops. It will never change, don't bother crying about it, absolutely nobody is listening to you.
If you don't like it, and want to do something about it, pretend that your lack of spending funds matters (it doesn't) and don't spend money in these games. Spend 15 minutes researching a game's shop before you play it, and you will be less disappointed as you experience the game.
In closing, gamers are paying plenty of money allowing the cash shop model to be extremely effective. That's all that matters. Until that changes, this is the way things are.
Good day.
The contents of this post do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com and its management.
So I feel people get scammed in F2P. F2P MMO use lots of ways to entice people to spend money in very dishonest ways.
At the start of the game, the items are usually not that powerful.
After a few weeks they add more and more powerful items, to the point that if you don't pay money, you fall behind your friends, or have difficulty doing the content, and to have fun in the game, you are required to give the company money.
That is a scam. It is a form of nickel and diming that Apple got into legal trouble with and they had to pay back the money for nickel and diming people with cash shop games.
Why are not more GAMERS speaking up AGAINST this. This is not honest towards players, it's a form of casino play, companies are taking advantage of players and using addictive games to nickel and dime money from them.
There is a reason online casino play is illegal in many nations. It is a dishonest way to rip people from their money through addiction. MMO are not different.
Join me in denouncing this sort of practice so the developers are forced to treat players correctly!
Final Fantasy XIV has shown that you do not need to scam players to make an MMO.
It is time players demand this nickel and diming scheme to stop, just like people demanded from Apple's app store.
Most of the more popular f2p mmos I have played let me play with little or no restrictions for 100s of hours either for free or for a reasonable amount of money ($60 or so), and even then it is usually only the end-game pvp side of things that demands I pay more to be competitive. Some of them have a more p2w element than others, but some have all or almost all cosmetic items. Its not a scam at all, and far from the type of games that have gotten into legal trouble for dodgy practices. That said, AA is one popular game that really pushed that line recently, and many people did speak out about it, and rightly so.
However, to me a payment model like WoW has is more of a scam than most f2p games have, and certainly more suspect than a b2p model. They charge you a sub and charge the price of a new game for every expansion - and the expansions are far smaller than any new mmo. Total rip-off in my view and I wish more players would speak out about it.
So I feel people get scammed in F2P. F2P MMO use lots of ways to entice people to spend money in very dishonest ways.
At the start of the game, the items are usually not that powerful.
After a few weeks they add more and more powerful items, to the point that if you don't pay money, you fall behind your friends, or have difficulty doing the content, and to have fun in the game, you are required to give the company money.
That is a scam. It is a form of nickel and diming that Apple got into legal trouble with and they had to pay back the money for nickel and diming people with cash shop games.
Why are not more GAMERS speaking up AGAINST this. This is not honest towards players, it's a form of casino play, companies are taking advantage of players and using addictive games to nickel and dime money from them.
There is a reason online casino play is illegal in many nations. It is a dishonest way to rip people from their money through addiction. MMO are not different.
Join me in denouncing this sort of practice so the developers are forced to treat players correctly!
Final Fantasy XIV has shown that you do not need to scam players to make an MMO.
It is time players demand this nickel and diming scheme to stop, just like people demanded from Apple's app store.
Most of the more popular f2p mmos I have played let me play with little or no restrictions for 100s of hours either for free or for a reasonable amount of money ($60 or so), and even then it is usually only the end-game pvp side of things that demands I pay more to be competitive. Some of them have a more p2w element than others, but some have all or almost all cosmetic items. Its not a scam at all, and far from the type of games that have gotten into legal trouble for dodgy practices. That said, AA is one popular game that really pushed that line recently, and many people did speak out about it, and rightly so.
However, to me a payment model like WoW has is more of a scam than most f2p games have, and certainly more suspect than a b2p model. They charge you a sub and charge the price of a new game for every expansion - and the expansions are far smaller than any new mmo. Total rip-off in my view and I wish more players would speak out about it.
I think you lost the point of your argument when you tried to argue that WoW is a scam for being P2P, with games like WoW or FFXIV;ARR, or even Eve Online, the subscription free is an up front payment, your paying for access to the games servers for 1 month, no hidden charges whatsoever, with F2P games this is not the case, there are often many 'hidden' charges that you have to make in order to either progress beyond a certain point, or items you need to buy to ensure an item is 'levelled up' or 'enhanced' to name but a few ways in which F2P games entice players into buying things from cash shops, often these charges when consolidated, add up to being many times that which you'd have to pay to play a P2P game, which is kind of ironic. While not all F2P games 'rip off' the players, the only games that you can level the whole 'ripping off of players' at, is in fact a number of games that fall into the F2P bracket.
F2P games remain amongst the most expensive games on the market, and have been for quite some time, i think its disingenuous to level an accusation of 'ripping off' at games that cost less to play than the games you are supposedly championing. And while the inevitable answer of 'but you don't have to buy anything' is often the response to this particular issue, its an answer that is meaningless as such game play as is available under those circumstances is inevitably sub standard and/or with such restrictions that the full game is not accessible.
So I feel people get scammed in F2P. F2P MMO use lots of ways to entice people to spend money in very dishonest ways.
At the start of the game, the items are usually not that powerful.
After a few weeks they add more and more powerful items, to the point that if you don't pay money, you fall behind your friends, or have difficulty doing the content, and to have fun in the game, you are required to give the company money.
That is a scam. It is a form of nickel and diming that Apple got into legal trouble with and they had to pay back the money for nickel and diming people with cash shop games.
Why are not more GAMERS speaking up AGAINST this. This is not honest towards players, it's a form of casino play, companies are taking advantage of players and using addictive games to nickel and dime money from them.
There is a reason online casino play is illegal in many nations. It is a dishonest way to rip people from their money through addiction. MMO are not different.
Join me in denouncing this sort of practice so the developers are forced to treat players correctly!
Final Fantasy XIV has shown that you do not need to scam players to make an MMO.
It is time players demand this nickel and diming scheme to stop, just like people demanded from Apple's app store.
Most of the more popular f2p mmos I have played let me play with little or no restrictions for 100s of hours either for free or for a reasonable amount of money ($60 or so), and even then it is usually only the end-game pvp side of things that demands I pay more to be competitive. Some of them have a more p2w element than others, but some have all or almost all cosmetic items. Its not a scam at all, and far from the type of games that have gotten into legal trouble for dodgy practices. That said, AA is one popular game that really pushed that line recently, and many people did speak out about it, and rightly so.
However, to me a payment model like WoW has is more of a scam than most f2p games have, and certainly more suspect than a b2p model. They charge you a sub and charge the price of a new game for every expansion - and the expansions are far smaller than any new mmo. Total rip-off in my view and I wish more players would speak out about it.
I think you lost the point of your argument when you tried to argue that WoW is a scam for being P2P, with games like WoW or FFXIV;ARR, or even Eve Online, the subscription free is an up front payment, your paying for access to the games servers for 1 month, no hidden charges whatsoever, with F2P games this is not the case, there are often many 'hidden' charges that you have to make in order to either progress beyond a certain point, or items you need to buy to ensure an item is 'levelled up' or 'enhanced' to name but a few ways in which F2P games entice players into buying things from cash shops, often these charges when consolidated, add up to being many times that which you'd have to pay to play a P2P game, which is kind of ironic. While not all F2P games 'rip off' the players, the only games that you can level the whole 'ripping off of players' at, is in fact a number of games that fall into the F2P bracket.
F2P games remain amongst the most expensive games on the market, and have been for quite some time, i think its disingenuous to level an accusation of 'ripping off' at games that cost less to play than the games you are supposedly championing. And while the inevitable answer of 'but you don't have to buy anything' is often the response to this particular issue, its an answer that is meaningless as such game play as is available under those circumstances is inevitably sub standard and/or with such restrictions that the full game is not accessible.
I am not championing any games, and f2p and b2p games have been the cheapest games for me to play. I think it is sad that so many people are conditioned into thinking charging a sub and also charging the price of a new game for expansions is acceptable.
In some sub-games like ESO I can see that the sub-payment is actually being used to really improve and add substantial content to the game. That is admirable and I can get behind that 100%. In other games I see the sub did nothing (WAR for example), or is just a game tax you have to pay until they company hits you up for the next expansion (WoW).
I like that these days we consumers actually have some choice, there are f2p games like Tera that are magnificent and are nothing like the "scam" that the OP suggests, and there are sub-based games like ESO where the devs actually have a vision for the future of the game and use our sub-fee to actively give us more game.
Of course I detest any f2p game that is all just about nickel and diming and has systems that flirt with online gambling, and I have spoken out about those strongly (like AA). However, most of the f2p and b2p games I have played actually offer extremely good value for money and with a modest investment allow me to enjoy them for 100s or even thousands of hours.
With some sub-games on the other hand all too often it just seems that our money is taken for granted. We get thrown a bone from time to time with fluff like "seasonal events" and such, but will have to pay up again on top of our sub for any real update. Looking back, I get the feeling that it might be because the devs lack a vision for where the game is going. If the game is launched as just the start of something bigger our sub-money can be used to work toward that vision and it feels like I am getting value for money.
F2p business models are often worse than gambling. Casinos are required to display the payout rate of slot machines and display the current jackpot. Nobody is supervising the "payouts" of the common f2p treasure chests. An advertised rare item like a mount could be inifnitely rare and nobody would be the wiser, certainly not the casual player.
Dota 2 changed the drops from treasure chests at the beginning of the year: http://blog.dota2.com/2014/03/the-end-end-of-duplicates/ . Now you can't get multiples when opening several crates in a row. Debatably this was done because opening treasure chests before was too close to gambling and the chinese government (one of or the biggest market for dota 2) was not happy with it.
Yup I agree, many reason why it's even worse.
Wrap an mmo and casino together and instead of people with one addiction you get people with two different addictions giving you money.
F2p business models are often worse than gambling. Casinos are required to display the payout rate of slot machines and display the current jackpot. Nobody is supervising the "payouts" of the common f2p treasure chests. An advertised rare item like a mount could be inifnitely rare and nobody would be the wiser, certainly not the casual player.
Dota 2 changed the drops from treasure chests at the beginning of the year: http://blog.dota2.com/2014/03/the-end-end-of-duplicates/ . Now you can't get multiples when opening several crates in a row. Debatably this was done because opening treasure chests before was too close to gambling and the chinese government (one of or the biggest market for dota 2) was not happy with it.
Yup I agree, many reason why it's even worse.
Wrap an mmo and casino together and instead of people with one addiction you get people with two different addictions giving you money.
nah .. only the second addiction (gambling) gives you money. The first will only play for free.
Comments
It still depends on wha the thing is in the lockbox, if you just can get skins and similar stuff then it matters little and if that makes you addicted it is kinda your own fault.
If it on the other hand actually drop really useful stuff you need you are right, it is bad indeed.
Of course what really should get you addicted to a MMO is the gameplay that should be addictive because it is fun, not real money lottery, dailies or minigames.
I see what you're saying but this is a hobby at the end of the day that should be played for fun and hopefully enjoyed with a lot of other players in the game. Beating a boss with a group or a raid is satisfying in itself and getting something is an added bonus. Obviously there HAS to be an incentive to beat the boss but this has been an RPG mechanic since the inception of video games. Simply sitting in a town, opening lockbox after lockbox for real money to get a dopamine rush when you finally get a good item after spending $300 is just not good game design and simply used to exploit the whales. With subscription games there is an upper limit what you can (legally) spend on the game and it makes you decide if you really like the GAME or if you are just after ITEMS.
Plenty of stuff can get you addicted and a subscription MMO is one of the more tame ones.
Just System like that make it easy to fall prey in to other system, don't end up happening to everyone but gets people ready to fall in to some other system there so use too, even spending money is a short cut at the end of the day that one who spend money or there months and months out end grind, they'll just feel a lot better when they end up getting it, people will grind months out end to get a item, if they can pay for it they will do it as is a short cut.
It just need to start somewhere and just need to be change how people get gear in mmo and other item, then will see less and less this casino like games, as they end up not selling it as people didn't far prey and they'll may end up doing better game play to keep people around.
What you get might not matter. Smokers know that they can get cancer, they still don't stop. Alcoholics know that they can get liver disease, still doesn't stop them. Gambling addicts know that they will lose in the end (or fool themselves very strongly into believing they will win) and continue playing because of the rush. Some even enjoy losing. Not everyone can get addicted to gambling and when you are it is not necessarily "your" fault. It's the fault of your genetic predisposition to having an addictive personality. These people need real help and can't just stop gambling.
F2p cash shop lockboxes, treasure chests, however you want to call them stimulate the same brain regions as gambling does and it is not far fetched to become addicted to them. Once again, what the reward is might not matter at all.
Treasure chests also add another layer of disguising the true cost of an item. You might be able to sell a mount in the cash shop for $20, but you might also be able to put it in a lockbox that costs $2 and have it drop every 25th time, effectively making the cost of the item $50 but it looks like you have a chance at the item for only $2.
This is on top of the fake currency (gems) that is already used to disguise the cost of cash shop items and entice you to buy a bigger amount than you initially planned. This is not rocket science, this is stuff that is happening in pretty much every f2p game.
Reading and laughing.
So, spending money to get tickets in a game, which are then used to purchase a spin on a wheel (or lockbox) to win something "is" gambling.
Do you always get something? Yes
Is it usable in the game? Yes
is it always "worth" what you paid for it? No
Spending money on a pack of cards (Magic the Gathering) in a game store to "win" something is ... not?
Do you always get something? Yes
Is it usable in the game? Yes
is it always "worth" what you paid for it? No
--> http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs <--
Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
another thread of gambling in mmorpg o/ was almost time!
what define gambling that what is not gambling is dictate by the law of the state you are in
but generally and raw is:
bet something, into something that involve chance, win something
because the kind of contract game companies and their customers have,is this kind of contract: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/lease-agreement.html
the end users are never in truth the legal owners of the prize
as I said what gabling is depends from the law, if the laws change so does gambling boundaries
hope it help o/
You can talk semantics all day. With real life Magic cards I would argue that there is at least some threshold that keeps you from going overboard. I see people buy an entire booster box (is that about 40 packs?) but rarely go over.
Hearthstone has introduced a whole new dimension of this phenomenon and I would now classify it as a very dangerous trend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G6e2woOoMI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URUZgKMbXrU
These are just 2 Youtubers who open 300 packs in a row. That comes out to $350 spent on virtual cards within one hour. Is this a sustainable and healthy behavior?
Virtual cards, Physical cards? what difference
I knew people who would buy 3 booster boxes during launches, each box was easily $100 at the time. (I played during the M:tG Unlimited/Revised Era) The simple CHANCE at getting a Mox or a Lotus was having people drop tons of money and many times never seeing one.
Gambling? No
Unhealthy Behavior? Yes
--> http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs <--
Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
Of course it matters, if you get useful stuff it destroys the balance of the game.
And gambling is legal in most places at least.
Sure, it is somwhat muddy water but people who tend to get addicted with stuff like this will still find their fix somewhere else unless you forbid all kinds of gambling including lottery.
If you know you easily get addicted you should stay out of games with an itemshop just like you should stay out of a casino.
Not that I would protest the least if they put all crap like this away from games but making laws and mass protests are not a good way to go here, there are far more important issues in the world to get upset about (like war, starvation, actual crimes and so on). Just don't buy any crap, if we all do that they will soon go away.
Does it matter then if buying lockboxes is gambling or not? It is unhealthy behavior by the same measures.
I don't care about the label, I care about the exploitation of the players by the developers of these games.
Capitalist systems of economy are all about exploitation of those who are willing to pay for it.
Since this is a thread about scamming, and no one is being scammed, I see no issue here.
I know how to close my wallet, maybe every else needs to learn how to close theirs? No scam present
--> http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs <--
Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
I should have clarified that I don't even think gambling addicts in these games are caring about the items that much, hence not using them to their benefit. Obviously I don't condone pay2win schemes and am not and will never play a clear pay2win game (I played ArcheAge at the beginning before I saw through it).
Yes, you should stay away but the landscape of games has changed the past few years and most people haven't adapted. Also, as I said before, ALL online casinos MUST have mechanics that allow you to self-exclude yourself from playing and depositing money. This is required by law. There is no such law for games with cash shops, hence giving these people less protection than traditional gambling.
I don't think f2p games will go away if "we" stay away. I have never spent a cent on Candy Crush and I would assume most "core" gamers haven't either. King is still valued at $5 billion now.
We still have the capacity to help and support each other even when it doesn't affect us personally. Sure we can say just close your wallet because some of us can but we can do more than that. For all of it's faults humanity has also demonstrated greatness at times.
Off topic edit.
How can you call it a scam, when people know exactly what they are paying for?
And Free to play does not equal Free to win. You can play for free. You just can't win.
Its like you said, a casino. Everyone knows the odds. Should we be speaking out against casinos too?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
The reality is that not many people are getting scammed by this. More people are getting scammed from TV infomercials than F2P. Sure, there are some people that make bad purchasing decisions, but the number is so small that no one really cares. People that get scammed are the equivalent of the Darwin Awards. Sure it is tragic, but is also a bit of perverse humor.
I agree with you. On a personal level meaning I think these practices suck. But the problem lies in people, with an issue regarding being too compulsive. I used to be a security guard is a casino and I would see it often.
Free drinks to decrease people's judgment, no clocks in sight so people cannot know how much time was wasted, pretty girls being social, reward benefits for spending a money. This is shady business practice but it's the people who empower it and the problem lies with the issues. In some free to play games - hell most of them, they have gambling as well and the motto is not much different. Provide an immersive environment and some people will drop a ton of cash.
The problem with some of these games is you try them out and sometimes you really enjoy them. You end up at a crossroad leave a game you like, accept not having the best and or most shinny stuff or spend some money - usually money that is worth a couple to several full games.
Anyway it's some of the people who jack the prices up. For every person sane enough to point out prices as too high. There is a whale throwing a ton of money at them. Believe it or not plenty of people will not drop cash on something priced too high on a game - so those people do stand against it and leave the game. But the ones who don't? Ruin it for everyone else. The game company does not care if you cannot afford everything, all they care about if taking the Whales money and empting their pockets. They are not interested in the idea of selling items less so everyone can afford them. They would still make money, maybe even more but whaling is easier.
That is my general problem with free to play, few are priced fair. They are designed for the rich and or compulsive spenders to have everything and the sane people can just do without.
So anytime I check out a new free to play game. I don't play the game. I check out the shop, right from the get go. If I find it too overpriced. I quit before ever giving myself a chance to like the game and rationalize spending anything.
Sigh. In response to the OP's post - No.
This is a business model. It is no different then any other business model that takes advantage of stupid people with money to spend. It is not unfair in any way - you know exactly what you are getting into. Nothing is withheld, you make an investment in something, and you receive exactly what you pay for in return.
Companies are making hand over fist in these cash shops. It will never change, don't bother crying about it, absolutely nobody is listening to you.
If you don't like it, and want to do something about it, pretend that your lack of spending funds matters (it doesn't) and don't spend money in these games. Spend 15 minutes researching a game's shop before you play it, and you will be less disappointed as you experience the game.
In closing, gamers are paying plenty of money allowing the cash shop model to be extremely effective. That's all that matters. Until that changes, this is the way things are.
Good day.
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Most of the more popular f2p mmos I have played let me play with little or no restrictions for 100s of hours either for free or for a reasonable amount of money ($60 or so), and even then it is usually only the end-game pvp side of things that demands I pay more to be competitive. Some of them have a more p2w element than others, but some have all or almost all cosmetic items. Its not a scam at all, and far from the type of games that have gotten into legal trouble for dodgy practices. That said, AA is one popular game that really pushed that line recently, and many people did speak out about it, and rightly so.
However, to me a payment model like WoW has is more of a scam than most f2p games have, and certainly more suspect than a b2p model. They charge you a sub and charge the price of a new game for every expansion - and the expansions are far smaller than any new mmo. Total rip-off in my view and I wish more players would speak out about it.
I think you lost the point of your argument when you tried to argue that WoW is a scam for being P2P, with games like WoW or FFXIV;ARR, or even Eve Online, the subscription free is an up front payment, your paying for access to the games servers for 1 month, no hidden charges whatsoever, with F2P games this is not the case, there are often many 'hidden' charges that you have to make in order to either progress beyond a certain point, or items you need to buy to ensure an item is 'levelled up' or 'enhanced' to name but a few ways in which F2P games entice players into buying things from cash shops, often these charges when consolidated, add up to being many times that which you'd have to pay to play a P2P game, which is kind of ironic. While not all F2P games 'rip off' the players, the only games that you can level the whole 'ripping off of players' at, is in fact a number of games that fall into the F2P bracket.
F2P games remain amongst the most expensive games on the market, and have been for quite some time, i think its disingenuous to level an accusation of 'ripping off' at games that cost less to play than the games you are supposedly championing. And while the inevitable answer of 'but you don't have to buy anything' is often the response to this particular issue, its an answer that is meaningless as such game play as is available under those circumstances is inevitably sub standard and/or with such restrictions that the full game is not accessible.
I am not championing any games, and f2p and b2p games have been the cheapest games for me to play. I think it is sad that so many people are conditioned into thinking charging a sub and also charging the price of a new game for expansions is acceptable.
In some sub-games like ESO I can see that the sub-payment is actually being used to really improve and add substantial content to the game. That is admirable and I can get behind that 100%. In other games I see the sub did nothing (WAR for example), or is just a game tax you have to pay until they company hits you up for the next expansion (WoW).
I like that these days we consumers actually have some choice, there are f2p games like Tera that are magnificent and are nothing like the "scam" that the OP suggests, and there are sub-based games like ESO where the devs actually have a vision for the future of the game and use our sub-fee to actively give us more game.
Of course I detest any f2p game that is all just about nickel and diming and has systems that flirt with online gambling, and I have spoken out about those strongly (like AA). However, most of the f2p and b2p games I have played actually offer extremely good value for money and with a modest investment allow me to enjoy them for 100s or even thousands of hours.
With some sub-games on the other hand all too often it just seems that our money is taken for granted. We get thrown a bone from time to time with fluff like "seasonal events" and such, but will have to pay up again on top of our sub for any real update. Looking back, I get the feeling that it might be because the devs lack a vision for where the game is going. If the game is launched as just the start of something bigger our sub-money can be used to work toward that vision and it feels like I am getting value for money.
why would I speak out against free fun?
Plus, speaking out will accomplish what?
Yup I agree, many reason why it's even worse.
Wrap an mmo and casino together and instead of people with one addiction you get people with two different addictions giving you money.
nah .. only the second addiction (gambling) gives you money. The first will only play for free.