Some (the majority) of sub based games are bad as well - going months (years) without adding anything and when they do they often increase better gear. Some are good though.
And - shock horror - the same can be true of DLC associated with b2p games as well.
And for sure we should "complain" when things are "bad" - but not by putting a label on a whole business model. As the first responders to the OP said: games have to be named.
If you never contributed anything how were you scammed? What were you scammed out of?
The reality is that most people do not pay for free games. They just try them out, and either move on, or decide to see how much they can get for free (even if tedious). Some do decide to pay for stuff in free games, but they are the small minority.
As for those that complain about the business model, they are mostly those that do not pay, but want the benefits that paying would get them. They believe it is unfair that just because someone gave money for something, that they should get it... when they are spending time. This usually is simply a factor of what people feel that their time is worth. If you have lots of money, your time is more valuable (so you spend money). If you do not have a lot of money, then your time is less valuable, and you don't want to spend the money.
The reality is that there is very little scamming going on.... but there is a lot of people who are upset that they don't have the money to buy the things that they would like.... so they set up straw men to beat on.
I know. I also know its not the people who do not have extra dollars that complain.
Its the ones who can afford to pay (disposable income) who complain and act entitled.
Going to disagree with both sentiments here.
Free players often participate in asking when sub games are going to go free - that's stepping on someone else's lawn. It's certainly entitlement based to ask for the minority when you have the majority of games in your court already yet aren't finding satisfaction until it can all be yours. How many months pass before someone links an article talking about how grand profits are from free games and how we should all just accept that this is how it's going to be for gaming. Cut and dry? Not really because you can't tell me what I'm supposed to like. I will choose that on my own. But if I see someone else being cannibalized - sure I'll speak out and at least alert them. What they do with the information still ultimately lands on them.
The big discussion is usually about whales versus nobodies but each year the reports come out those in the middle keep gaining ground. So much so that companies started calling them dolphins. These are mid-level spenders who usually exceed the cost of subscription games but don't reach the extravagant levels of the whales. If you know about the term conversion in analytical reporting then you know the impact here. There are still those who pay small amounts occasionally which I imagine to be based on a must have or some form of guilt for having paid nothing. You often see them post about it saying they are "supporting the developers". Tell it like it is, you are no longer playing a free game but will call it such to market it to friends who may employ completely different spending restraint limits but that doesn't concern you because you will still call the game free to get more to join. Such is marketing.
We may make it black and white for quick discussion but there are many levels of spending and people can float into different brackets depending on their personal income, interest in a game, or even their growing dislike of a game as a punishment tactic before their eventual exit. Also too there are people who play both sub and free games. Where do they fit into the mix, never discussed. There are certainly some stereotypes forming - either you are a grinding sub glutton - or you are a free-loading cheapskate - or you are a person spending your kid's college fund so the free-loaders can admire you. Maybe the whales are old news and the dolphins are the ones to be concerned with because they are the middle class in this order. Those who fear being poor but will spend when it's disposable because they have to have a little more than the worst on the ladder to prove their rank. The truly wealthy whales can buy something physical like a car to show off their money in the real world, those middle class schlubs can find a smaller payoff from gaming where they stay above the serfs, ya dig. When I think about which group can leave the mix quicker and has the means, it's the whales, not the dolphins.
People ask about P2P games going F2P, because the pay first method has an initial barrier to entry, and people would like to try the game. This does not mean that they are not interested in paying for it, but rather that they would like to find out. P2P games found out years ago that free trials reduced revenue, so they generally don't offer them until user acquisition becomes too expensive (and they don't have anything to lose).
The whales vs dolphins discussion is very valid in todays F2P games. However, it is not relevant in discussion of paid vs free players for F2P games. The vast majority of all players for F2P are free. The conversion rate has improved as the market matures (which is why it is higher for PC MMO's than mobile games), but it is still only a small minority of all users that pay anything.
One (common) theme for F2P implementations has been to offer many levels of payment options, so that users can spend as little or as much as they like. This is NOT something exclusive to F2P, and some P2P implementations also offer these types of options. It is the rarity of such options in P2P that have led to the preconception that this is not offered.
However, the issue I have with this thread is the preconception that there are masses of people getting scammed by F2P... which I believe is generally not true. I believe there are masses of people that complain about (other) people getting scammed, without any actual evidence of such events.
I am not stating that people are not satisfied with their purchases. However, I am stating that there is no evidence that it is any different for F2P than with any other model (hence the lack of cries of outrage from the masses).
Originally posted by DarkFail You not having the will power to not purchase things does not mean they are scamming you.
You can keep trying to come up with excuses. The thing that is eventually going to get them into trouble is:
*the fact they are starting to incorporate gambling tactics
*the fact many of their players are minors
Each year they keep pushing the line. First it was some cosmetics. Then they incorporated virtual currency. Then they incorporated cash shops with lockboxes and casino games. Now you have videos on Youtube of people showing the odds of winning something are manipulated and changed.
It's going to get them in trouble with the law eventually, not if, but when.
I tend to remember some rumbling about doing something about this a while back even in a small way like requiring discloser of odds when buying the keys and one of the big name F2P companies basically said they would region lock their games out of that country before giving up lock boxes in their current form. If that's not a indication of just how much more money these companies are making off these practices I don't know what else would be. There is a line between maximizing profit and exploiting consumers and to me lock boxes clearly crosses that line in their current form. Now if they were required to disclose things like odds and introduce even basic protection against underage gambling like casinos need to I would be more inclined to accept them but every single game that has these has refused to even discuss the topic and would rather region lock their game out from customers than have to disclose just how expensive some of those premium items in the lock boxes are.
I had talked to the OP about this in regards to EQNext and it's choice to go F2P.
Someone mentioned "hidden fees", this is my main objection against F2P's business model, when you start the game, there is no indication that shows how much the game actually costs. The EU proposal someone linked, would require games to be clear in what the cost of the game is.
F2P is like going to a restaurant, and getting a free upfront drink, then the apetizer is kind of expensive, you pay for it, then the actual main meal is outrageously expensive, and then you get a hidden bill for the heating, if you don't pay for it, you get your dinner outside in the snow.
F2P is such an incredibly sleazy and underhanded business model. Just the name itself is incredibly misleading.
And don't get me started on the tactics the cash shops use, with lockboxes and like people referenced, casino type gameplay.
How these games are still able to operate is beyond me. When you have minors gambling money away in your game, you should at the very least be taken offline, if not actually arrested. And don't give me the excuse this is not gambling, it has every hallmark of a gambling system.
Yes F2P have many sleazy business model, is not only free play, as well sub have there own part of the cake as well, Just marketing people to spend on there game more then they should, if a company finds a way to get people to spend more on there game that company will do so at the end of the day how much money there making then how much players base they have seem happen to most all mmo this day.
Why I point out wow cash shop so many times, is to get player use to a cash shop and slowly start to put items and other stuff in it, there are people will defend there cash shop as just mounts and pets but people don't get it the point make it easyer get use to a cash shop idea just to get more and more people fall prey to it.
Why is not F2P only, just how market is make the most money off back of players then giving content that worth there money as they fund for.
I really don't think it can be called scamming, sure It's shitty business practice, but i can't see it being illegal, the only way to prevent these systems is to not support them, and with these games surviving people apparently are.
I'd love to know why as well, absolutely boggles my mind
There has been a few articles and to sum it up in one word....narcissism.
A couple of companies have stated that the "whales" is what makes them money. As long as there are people out there who are willing to pay money to have a few extra glowies on their armor/weapon/pet/ et.al. , these companies are going to provide them a means for their money to soon be parted with them.
Too many old gamers like myself have tilted at that windmill and been rebuffed too many times, even by the gaming journalists/sites as well, to bother with it anymore. Last MMO I played? ESO for 3 months, I couldn't do the faction grinding thing and wasn't overly impressed by it to go back after they did away with it. So I don't play any MMO's currently and not really looking to either. Watching EQNext and Pathfinder and that is about it. I think that eventually this style of whale gaming will die out, just got to wait and see, and resign yourself to if it doesn't, they're just games anyways.
It's not just players that complain about it. Some developers do too, and I'm talking about individuals, not companies.
One of the best developers of Everquest left shortly after they implemented the cash shop in Everquest, at first it was a card game, then it involved into a cash shop. EQ's cash shop is less extreme than many Korean cash shops, but still, it's a cash shop.
Before he left, he said on the forums, that he didn't agree with the choice to implement a cash shop either, but that his hands were tied and he had no control over it. A few weeks later he wrote a post saying he was leaving SoE. He didn't explicitly say why, but you could tell there was disagreement at SoE between managmenet and some devs. I don't think that developer could deal with the fact that players blamed him for the cash shop, even though it wasn't his decision.
It is really upper management and high ranking game producers at those companies forcing cash shops onto people, it has never been players asking for it, it has never been the regular developers, it has been people like Smedley who have been at the forefront of F2P, at one point SoE had a deal with a company to implement virtual currencies, that same company had ties to gambling companies.
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Then again, developers are rarely treated well at gaming companies, programmers work overtime, some are underpaid, and then they have to deal with tons of players blaming them for something management forces onto them. No wonder they leave, no wonder game programmers have some of the shortest carreers and many have changed jobs by the time they are 35. Gaming companies, with a few exceptions, rarely treat either their employers or customers well. The only companies that seem to be the exception, are really old gaming companies that have an established playerbase and established employees, many of the best gaming companies are still Japanese, because of their history, they're not in it for the short term, they have built a trust relationship with their players.
Not all F2P games have an abusive predatory payment model, however many F2P games run like casinos. Spamming general chat with info about a player opening a lock box and getting something cool. Many F2P companies actually have company employees open items on personal accounts (lock boxes they got for free obviously) to make it look like more people are buying stuff, and getting stuff. This is a trigger for some people to spend. Random lock box loot is way to much like gambling. People will spend real world money to gamble for digital items, some people are addicted to the simple act of spending money and spinning a wheel to see if you are a big winner. Some peoples brains can not handle this like normal people. Addicts have a problem, these types of games/lock boxes for silly virtual crap are predatory.
These cash shops are predatory and it is silly to think they are not, you might not be caught by them but thousands of people are. It is not because they are stupid people who should be taken advantage of, rather they are normal average people falling victim to companies using psychology and modern knowledge about mental illness to design a system to milk people for money, even if they do not have the money. The first hit of crack is free lol it is wrong when drug dealers take advantage of addicts and it is just as wrong when companies do it....
Even Terrance and Phillip in South Park had issues with this very topic...
How these games are still able to operate is beyond me. When you have minors gambling money away in your game, you should at the very least be taken offline, if not actually arrested. And don't give me the excuse this is not gambling, it has every hallmark of a gambling system.
F2P is much worse than gambling because in a casino you have at least a chance to win jackpot. F2P is pure scamming and laws regulating gambling should apply to this business model imo.
I really don't think it can be called scamming, sure It's shitty business practice, but i can't see it being illegal, the only way to prevent these systems is to not support them, and with these games surviving people apparently are.
I'd love to know why as well, absolutely boggles my mind
There has been a few articles and to sum it up in one word....narcissism.
A couple of companies have stated that the "whales" is what makes them money. As long as there are people out there who are willing to pay money to have a few extra glowies on their armor/weapon/pet/ et.al. , these companies are going to provide them a means for their money to soon be parted with them.
Too many old gamers like myself have tilted at that windmill and been rebuffed too many times, even by the gaming journalists/sites as well, to bother with it anymore. Last MMO I played? ESO for 3 months, I couldn't do the faction grinding thing and wasn't overly impressed by it to go back after they did away with it. So I don't play any MMO's currently and not really looking to either. Watching EQNext and Pathfinder and that is about it. I think that eventually this style of whale gaming will die out, just got to wait and see, and resign yourself to if it doesn't, they're just games anyways.
I don't think you've played many F2P MMOs. You're talking as if the only thing in cash shops were vanity items. Only the most benign F2P games work that way nowadays.
The big trend is lock boxes that can provide you with items that have real game play value. They sell desirable character classes and world areas, and enough desirable gear to start good "pay to win" debates. They aren't going after just the silly and vain. They are going after anyone who likes the game enough to want to get a full MMO experience out of it. And most of them will still not give you everything if you use their ubiquitous sub option... they want you to sub and will still tempt you to spend more.
If you enjoy the game otherwise, It actually takes a lot of self control to play them and never spend a penny... and I'm very skeptical of the people who claim to play them for any significant amount of time and never pay anything.
Their only true value is the "play before you pay" trial-like aspect.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I'd say a real gamer is the ones who love exploring these virtual worlds, "live" in these worlds, earn your way to gold and glory you know? And then once you have defeated the bad guys and have earned your titles, you can show off your armor in the capital city, hehe.
In new games you never really work your way up in the world, it's always designed so that you will be hopelessly behind unless you take this shortcut for only 5 bucks, and another, and another etc. It is making it so that there is no real achievements in these games.
10 years ago (back in my days lol) we would see someone in crazy gear and be like "damn dude, that is SICK!" and think to ourselves that we want that gear too, -some day.
Today when I hear about someone in full whatever-crazy-gear, I'm not impressed at all, they were just willing to spend way more than everyone else, not an achievement at all.
I could spend a lot of money on these so called "games", but if I did buy my way to the top, then what? Nothing left.
Naeh, I'd much rather play in a world where the playing field is equal and no one can take shortcuts.
I'm a gamer and I play games, not virtual vending machines.
Someone mentioned "hidden fees", this is my main objection against F2P's business model, when you start the game, there is no indication that shows how much the game actually costs. The EU proposal someone linked, would require games to be clear in what the cost of the game is.
It is quite clear that a large part of the game can be played for free.
You can always play another free game when you hit the pay wall (if there is one).
Take MH as an example ... you can finish the story content with a hero without paying a cent. I think it is pretty clear of what the costs are ... zero.
Sure you can play some of the game for free but I wouldn't say it's a large part since hero's is what makes that game unique. Take them out of the equation and it's a fairly basic Diablo clone. Add on top of that the synergies system where the game encourages you to play multiple heroes for cross hero buffs and the game strongly pushes people towards the cash shop. Don't get me wrong MH is one of the better cash shops out there along with TSW and if they put the stuff that is in the slot machine boxes up for sale directly on the cash shop instead of hiding the true cost to "buy" it inside a random number generator I would say they would be examples of F2P done right but even for as good as their shops are they have adopted this insanely highly profitable and very anti-consumer friendly practice which short of governments getting involved is only going to get worse as time goes on. I mean why be limited to selling things for $5-$20 each when you can sell them for hundreds each by hiding the cost in a lock box?
whether it is a large or small part is a matter of perspective .. but that is not the point. Even if it is a small part .. you get the small part for free.
sure .. there is a casino inside the game but you can simply not play the casino and enjoy the free part of the game, which apparently that is how *most* players enjoy f2p games.
Someone mentioned "hidden fees", this is my main objection against F2P's business model, when you start the game, there is no indication that shows how much the game actually costs. The EU proposal someone linked, would require games to be clear in what the cost of the game is.
It is quite clear that a large part of the game can be played for free.
You can always play another free game when you hit the pay wall (if there is one).
Take MH as an example ... you can finish the story content with a hero without paying a cent. I think it is pretty clear of what the costs are ... zero.
Sure you can play some of the game for free but I wouldn't say it's a large part since hero's is what makes that game unique. Take them out of the equation and it's a fairly basic Diablo clone. Add on top of that the synergies system where the game encourages you to play multiple heroes for cross hero buffs and the game strongly pushes people towards the cash shop. Don't get me wrong MH is one of the better cash shops out there along with TSW and if they put the stuff that is in the slot machine boxes up for sale directly on the cash shop instead of hiding the true cost to "buy" it inside a random number generator I would say they would be examples of F2P done right but even for as good as their shops are they have adopted this insanely highly profitable and very anti-consumer friendly practice which short of governments getting involved is only going to get worse as time goes on. I mean why be limited to selling things for $5-$20 each when you can sell them for hundreds each by hiding the cost in a lock box?
whether it is a large or small part is a matter of perspective .. but that is not the point. Even if it is a small part .. you get the small part for free.
sure .. there is a casino inside the game but you can simply not play the casino and enjoy the free part of the game, which apparently that is how *most* players enjoy f2p games.
But I don't want to settle for some of the game I would like to play all of it. I have no issue paying either and I'll even go higher than the traditional P2P sub fee of $15 a month for a game I enjoy but what I'm not going to do is pay endlessly into a slot machine to be able to play how I would like to play even if that's just wearing a outfit/skin the developer decided was more profitable to put in a lock box than to just list for sale on their store front. Tell me what something costs and I'll make a decision on if it's worth that to me or not but I am not going to buy things a dollar at a time for some unknown amount of money.
Just to be clear I would be fine with lock boxes if everything in them was also for sale in the store or could be found in game. What I don't accept is the practice of putting exclusive things in them however. Not so long ago exclusive gear was something people earned by doing things in game most other people couldn't. Now a days it's more a indication of a good credit limit. I'm not sure how anyone can defend that as a good trend for video games except for the executives banking the profits. It's not like we are getting higher quality games as a result of it. Just the opposite really, we are getting ton's of copy/paste clones with little to no innovation other than how outrageous the cash shops can be.
If you look up gamble in the dictionary, the 1st example specifically references "for money" However, the 2nd example does not. "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result." Seems to me that these F2P items do fit the definition of gambling according to the dictionary. But loopholes in the law allow it.
Let's cut the shit. These companies are preying on the same psychological response in people that casinos use. Let's not even bring up that many of these games are preying on minors.
How these games are still able to operate is beyond me. When you have minors gambling money away in your game, you should at the very least be taken offline, if not actually arrested. And don't give me the excuse this is not gambling, it has every hallmark of a gambling system.
F2P is much worse than gambling because in a casino you have at least a chance to win jackpot. F2P is pure scamming and laws regulating gambling should apply to this business model imo.
There a few people I know go to casino each week, trying to win a jackpot, they spend about 200 a week each time, end up coming back with less or none there money back they been at it for years still hoping for that jackpot even buys in books and videos find out better way for them to win, still don't help them at all.
But anyhow, what ever game that's is out now, or will be 95% of them are endlessly a slot machine not talking about the money I'm talking how each game works, they keep playing hoping for something but you may or may never get it even if you paying for it.
This is why mmo need to change to less people become a prey to this, but is not as long people willing to take it end up in all types of games.
But I don't want to settle for some of the game I would like to play all of it.
Really? You buy all the DLCs for every game you play? You buy all the expansions for all the games you play?
I suppose if you want *all* of every game you play, it is your prerogative. Obviously others do not have to do that, particularly when the games are free.
the reason i dont speak up anymore is..when you have smelled you own fart 1 or 2 times to many. in the end it grows on you..lol the smell is not bad anymore...same with the f2p scams...i have grown immune since archeage
If you look up gamble in the dictionary, the 1st example specifically references "for money" However, the 2nd example does not. "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result." Seems to me that these F2P items do fit the definition of gambling according to the dictionary. But loopholes in the law allow it.
Let's cut the shit. These companies are preying on the same psychological response in people that casinos use. Let's not even bring up that many of these games are preying on minors.
Gambling is very clearly defined... and it F2P games are not it. Did you know that in Korea, before launch, Diablo III was determined to be gambling, and had to be modified to operate legally? (i.e. a P2P game was gambling, but F2P was not).
Tricks for getting consumers to buy are common, here is a recent article on this:
I am not saying that this type of behavior is always good. However, I am saying that it is common, for all sorts of business. F2P is generally less problematic than many others, and is mostly guilty of crimes imagined by its accusers (i.e. the facts do not back up the claims).
If you look up gamble in the dictionary, the 1st example specifically references "for money" However, the 2nd example does not. "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result." Seems to me that these F2P items do fit the definition of gambling according to the dictionary. But loopholes in the law allow it.
Let's cut the shit. These companies are preying on the same psychological response in people that casinos use. Let's not even bring up that many of these games are preying on minors.
Gambling is very clearly defined... and it F2P games are not it. Did you know that in Korea, before launch, Diablo III was determined to be gambling, and had to be modified to operate legally? (i.e. a P2P game was gambling, but F2P was not).
Tricks for getting consumers to buy are common, here is a recent article on this:
I am not saying that this type of behavior is always good. However, I am saying that it is common, for all sorts of business. F2P is generally less problematic than many others, and is mostly guilty of crimes imagined by its accusers (i.e. the facts do not back up the claims).
Nice BS answer there, as you just happened to leave out this Google search worth of answers WHY KOREA HAD AN ISSUE WITH DIABLO III... but yeah, try another example...
I abhor the F2P business model in all of its forms but I don't think it is a scam in general. I don't usually get involved in discussions on this forum about it because it is generally a waste of time. I just stay away from F2P games for the most part. I've tried to get involved in one or two but it eventually ends up being a choice between pay more money or play for 5-6 hours a day to make any decent progress. Subscription models are better at keeping the playing field even and being cheaper in the long run.
These companies have recognized addictive behaviors in people and are simply using them. Much like a drug dealer does to an addict. I'm 44 years old and I have been playing online games since the early 90's. I have noticed throughout my online journey that a vast majority of people playing games are simply addicts. The pay to play model has shown some players will ruin their lives spending an unhealthy amount of hours leveling or doing whatever. What these companies recognized is they can make more money charging them micro fees to do the same thing that they were doing with the P2P model and make more money. So is it wrong they are doing this? Of course and they should be ashamed of it, but the ultimate responsibility falls on the individual. If you feel these companies are scamming and using you just quit playing online games. This very website were all on discussing these matters are also shameful and need to look at their own position in the gaming community and help players out as well. Bottom line is simple. The final answer to any question and viewpoint regarding this thread is simply "GREED".
Comments
Some F2P games are bad; some F2P games are good.
Some (the majority) of sub based games are bad as well - going months (years) without adding anything and when they do they often increase better gear. Some are good though.
And - shock horror - the same can be true of DLC associated with b2p games as well.
And for sure we should "complain" when things are "bad" - but not by putting a label on a whole business model. As the first responders to the OP said: games have to be named.
People ask about P2P games going F2P, because the pay first method has an initial barrier to entry, and people would like to try the game. This does not mean that they are not interested in paying for it, but rather that they would like to find out. P2P games found out years ago that free trials reduced revenue, so they generally don't offer them until user acquisition becomes too expensive (and they don't have anything to lose).
The whales vs dolphins discussion is very valid in todays F2P games. However, it is not relevant in discussion of paid vs free players for F2P games. The vast majority of all players for F2P are free. The conversion rate has improved as the market matures (which is why it is higher for PC MMO's than mobile games), but it is still only a small minority of all users that pay anything.
One (common) theme for F2P implementations has been to offer many levels of payment options, so that users can spend as little or as much as they like. This is NOT something exclusive to F2P, and some P2P implementations also offer these types of options. It is the rarity of such options in P2P that have led to the preconception that this is not offered.
However, the issue I have with this thread is the preconception that there are masses of people getting scammed by F2P... which I believe is generally not true. I believe there are masses of people that complain about (other) people getting scammed, without any actual evidence of such events.
I am not stating that people are not satisfied with their purchases. However, I am stating that there is no evidence that it is any different for F2P than with any other model (hence the lack of cries of outrage from the masses).
I tend to remember some rumbling about doing something about this a while back even in a small way like requiring discloser of odds when buying the keys and one of the big name F2P companies basically said they would region lock their games out of that country before giving up lock boxes in their current form. If that's not a indication of just how much more money these companies are making off these practices I don't know what else would be. There is a line between maximizing profit and exploiting consumers and to me lock boxes clearly crosses that line in their current form. Now if they were required to disclose things like odds and introduce even basic protection against underage gambling like casinos need to I would be more inclined to accept them but every single game that has these has refused to even discuss the topic and would rather region lock their game out from customers than have to disclose just how expensive some of those premium items in the lock boxes are.
Yes F2P have many sleazy business model, is not only free play, as well sub have there own part of the cake as well, Just marketing people to spend on there game more then they should, if a company finds a way to get people to spend more on there game that company will do so at the end of the day how much money there making then how much players base they have seem happen to most all mmo this day.
Why I point out wow cash shop so many times, is to get player use to a cash shop and slowly start to put items and other stuff in it, there are people will defend there cash shop as just mounts and pets but people don't get it the point make it easyer get use to a cash shop idea just to get more and more people fall prey to it.
Why is not F2P only, just how market is make the most money off back of players then giving content that worth there money as they fund for.
There has been a few articles and to sum it up in one word....narcissism.
A couple of companies have stated that the "whales" is what makes them money. As long as there are people out there who are willing to pay money to have a few extra glowies on their armor/weapon/pet/ et.al. , these companies are going to provide them a means for their money to soon be parted with them.
Too many old gamers like myself have tilted at that windmill and been rebuffed too many times, even by the gaming journalists/sites as well, to bother with it anymore. Last MMO I played? ESO for 3 months, I couldn't do the faction grinding thing and wasn't overly impressed by it to go back after they did away with it. So I don't play any MMO's currently and not really looking to either. Watching EQNext and Pathfinder and that is about it. I think that eventually this style of whale gaming will die out, just got to wait and see, and resign yourself to if it doesn't, they're just games anyways.
It's not just players that complain about it. Some developers do too, and I'm talking about individuals, not companies.
One of the best developers of Everquest left shortly after they implemented the cash shop in Everquest, at first it was a card game, then it involved into a cash shop. EQ's cash shop is less extreme than many Korean cash shops, but still, it's a cash shop.
Before he left, he said on the forums, that he didn't agree with the choice to implement a cash shop either, but that his hands were tied and he had no control over it. A few weeks later he wrote a post saying he was leaving SoE. He didn't explicitly say why, but you could tell there was disagreement at SoE between managmenet and some devs. I don't think that developer could deal with the fact that players blamed him for the cash shop, even though it wasn't his decision.
It is really upper management and high ranking game producers at those companies forcing cash shops onto people, it has never been players asking for it, it has never been the regular developers, it has been people like Smedley who have been at the forefront of F2P, at one point SoE had a deal with a company to implement virtual currencies, that same company had ties to gambling companies.
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Then again, developers are rarely treated well at gaming companies, programmers work overtime, some are underpaid, and then they have to deal with tons of players blaming them for something management forces onto them. No wonder they leave, no wonder game programmers have some of the shortest carreers and many have changed jobs by the time they are 35. Gaming companies, with a few exceptions, rarely treat either their employers or customers well. The only companies that seem to be the exception, are really old gaming companies that have an established playerbase and established employees, many of the best gaming companies are still Japanese, because of their history, they're not in it for the short term, they have built a trust relationship with their players.
Not all F2P games have an abusive predatory payment model, however many F2P games run like casinos. Spamming general chat with info about a player opening a lock box and getting something cool. Many F2P companies actually have company employees open items on personal accounts (lock boxes they got for free obviously) to make it look like more people are buying stuff, and getting stuff. This is a trigger for some people to spend. Random lock box loot is way to much like gambling. People will spend real world money to gamble for digital items, some people are addicted to the simple act of spending money and spinning a wheel to see if you are a big winner. Some peoples brains can not handle this like normal people. Addicts have a problem, these types of games/lock boxes for silly virtual crap are predatory.
These cash shops are predatory and it is silly to think they are not, you might not be caught by them but thousands of people are. It is not because they are stupid people who should be taken advantage of, rather they are normal average people falling victim to companies using psychology and modern knowledge about mental illness to design a system to milk people for money, even if they do not have the money. The first hit of crack is free lol it is wrong when drug dealers take advantage of addicts and it is just as wrong when companies do it....
Even Terrance and Phillip in South Park had issues with this very topic...
F2P is much worse than gambling because in a casino you have at least a chance to win jackpot. F2P is pure scamming and laws regulating gambling should apply to this business model imo.
I don't think you've played many F2P MMOs. You're talking as if the only thing in cash shops were vanity items. Only the most benign F2P games work that way nowadays.
The big trend is lock boxes that can provide you with items that have real game play value. They sell desirable character classes and world areas, and enough desirable gear to start good "pay to win" debates. They aren't going after just the silly and vain. They are going after anyone who likes the game enough to want to get a full MMO experience out of it. And most of them will still not give you everything if you use their ubiquitous sub option... they want you to sub and will still tempt you to spend more.
If you enjoy the game otherwise, It actually takes a lot of self control to play them and never spend a penny... and I'm very skeptical of the people who claim to play them for any significant amount of time and never pay anything.
Their only true value is the "play before you pay" trial-like aspect.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Virtual vending machines aren't games.
I'd say a real gamer is the ones who love exploring these virtual worlds, "live" in these worlds, earn your way to gold and glory you know? And then once you have defeated the bad guys and have earned your titles, you can show off your armor in the capital city, hehe.
In new games you never really work your way up in the world, it's always designed so that you will be hopelessly behind unless you take this shortcut for only 5 bucks, and another, and another etc. It is making it so that there is no real achievements in these games.
10 years ago (back in my days lol) we would see someone in crazy gear and be like "damn dude, that is SICK!" and think to ourselves that we want that gear too, -some day.
Today when I hear about someone in full whatever-crazy-gear, I'm not impressed at all, they were just willing to spend way more than everyone else, not an achievement at all.
I could spend a lot of money on these so called "games", but if I did buy my way to the top, then what? Nothing left.
Naeh, I'd much rather play in a world where the playing field is equal and no one can take shortcuts.
I'm a gamer and I play games, not virtual vending machines.
whether it is a large or small part is a matter of perspective .. but that is not the point. Even if it is a small part .. you get the small part for free.
sure .. there is a casino inside the game but you can simply not play the casino and enjoy the free part of the game, which apparently that is how *most* players enjoy f2p games.
But I don't want to settle for some of the game I would like to play all of it. I have no issue paying either and I'll even go higher than the traditional P2P sub fee of $15 a month for a game I enjoy but what I'm not going to do is pay endlessly into a slot machine to be able to play how I would like to play even if that's just wearing a outfit/skin the developer decided was more profitable to put in a lock box than to just list for sale on their store front. Tell me what something costs and I'll make a decision on if it's worth that to me or not but I am not going to buy things a dollar at a time for some unknown amount of money.
Just to be clear I would be fine with lock boxes if everything in them was also for sale in the store or could be found in game. What I don't accept is the practice of putting exclusive things in them however. Not so long ago exclusive gear was something people earned by doing things in game most other people couldn't. Now a days it's more a indication of a good credit limit. I'm not sure how anyone can defend that as a good trend for video games except for the executives banking the profits. It's not like we are getting higher quality games as a result of it. Just the opposite really, we are getting ton's of copy/paste clones with little to no innovation other than how outrageous the cash shops can be.
If you look up gamble in the dictionary, the 1st example specifically references "for money" However, the 2nd example does not. "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result." Seems to me that these F2P items do fit the definition of gambling according to the dictionary. But loopholes in the law allow it.
Let's cut the shit. These companies are preying on the same psychological response in people that casinos use. Let's not even bring up that many of these games are preying on minors.
There a few people I know go to casino each week, trying to win a jackpot, they spend about 200 a week each time, end up coming back with less or none there money back they been at it for years still hoping for that jackpot even buys in books and videos find out better way for them to win, still don't help them at all.
But anyhow, what ever game that's is out now, or will be 95% of them are endlessly a slot machine not talking about the money I'm talking how each game works, they keep playing hoping for something but you may or may never get it even if you paying for it.
This is why mmo need to change to less people become a prey to this, but is not as long people willing to take it end up in all types of games.
Really? You buy all the DLCs for every game you play? You buy all the expansions for all the games you play?
I suppose if you want *all* of every game you play, it is your prerogative. Obviously others do not have to do that, particularly when the games are free.
mmorpg junkie since 1999
Gambling is very clearly defined... and it F2P games are not it. Did you know that in Korea, before launch, Diablo III was determined to be gambling, and had to be modified to operate legally? (i.e. a P2P game was gambling, but F2P was not).
Tricks for getting consumers to buy are common, here is a recent article on this:
http://popist.com/s/7201bda/
I am not saying that this type of behavior is always good. However, I am saying that it is common, for all sorts of business. F2P is generally less problematic than many others, and is mostly guilty of crimes imagined by its accusers (i.e. the facts do not back up the claims).
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+was+diablo+iii+gambling+in+korea