I want The Elder Scrolls MMO, not a checklist grind.

tixylix

When I look at any MMO of today all you do is run down a linear path which takes you from 1 - end level grinding checklists. I was trying to play WoW the other day and all I was doing was running from hub to hub getting lots of quests and then going out, killing x number, collecting x number of this and delivering stuff. People go on about how WoWs quests are so amazing these days... no they've just surrounded it all in fluff and it isn't the only MMO guilty of it. 

Then you have the ones that really piss me off, FF14, TESO and SWTOR which are based off fantastic (or used to be in the case of FF) single player RPGS. They have great stories and amazing quests and worlds to explore, yet for the MMO they throw that all out of the window and say "lets just copy WoWs boring arse broken design". Earth to developers, WoW is only popular because it is Blizzard, they can throw out any turd and people play it, just so happens it was actually good back in 2004. 

People say you cannot do story in MMOs... why not? When I play Skyrim there are lots of self contained stories and quest line stories which would be so easy to do. They're all fun as well, there is a reason for that because they're not there as filler and not designed to level you up asap. 

All the old MMOs used to be like that, any quests they had, they were just designed for fun content. Then people got bored of grinding mobs and Blizzard came along and thought "what if we do quests to level up instead?".  That really started the whole genre decline of people wanting to rush through the game as fast as possible and peoples attitudes changing to they wont do anything that doesn't give them rewards all the time.

I used to just play an MMO to be in the world, but now people even see the world as getting in the way and don't even want it any more, they want crap like Destiny. That isn't what the genre was made for, Destiny and other stuff like it aren't even MMOs but it feels like the genre is dead and that is what it has become. 

 

All I want is The Elder Scrolls as an MMO, one where I can enjoy the world, I can enjoy the content and it isn't all stats, checklists and getting through it as quick as possible. Yeah getting new gear is nice, but what happened to playing because it was fun?

Bladestrom

Bit confuzzled since questing in ESO is certainly not linear and are well written and acted, and you certainly don't play for stats or gear until you are hundreds of hours into the game (on the assumption you are not a locust)   Maybe you should look again, since it has pretty much evolved to be exactly what you describe.  I will give you a concrete example, I was wandering around in a zone at a higher level than me to gather and I managed to complete a quest that was aimed at a higher level.  A Couple weeks later I arrived at the town near to the quest giver and the town NPC's were talking about what I had done.  That's a major boon for role playing.

Agree with the others though they were deliberately designed around the stat/power gain model.

Sovrath

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Bit confuzzled since questing in ESO is certainly not linear and are well written and acted, and you certainly don't play for stats or gear until you are hundreds of hours into the game (on the assumption you are not a locust)   Maybe you should look again, since it has pretty much evolved to be exactly what you describe.  I will give you a concrete example, I was wandering around in a zone at a higher level than me to gather and I managed to complete a quest that was aimed at a higher level.  A Couple weeks later I arrived at the town near to the quest giver and the town NPC's were talking about what I had done.  That's a major boon for role playing.

Agree with the others though they were deliberately designed around the stat/power gain model.

I know what he means. he is looking for the "head and and see a door in a hillside and have an adventure" experience.

Some people don't play the elder scrolls games like this, they just play the quests. However, those who spend hours, days, months and yes, years, explore, adopt characterization and lose themselves in the world.

 

marcmy

I agree with much of what you're saying too. That too was one of the most disappointing things about TESO for me. In Skyrim, the way you level is by leveling your skills, and you level skills by using them. Which means that you don't need to quest grind to level. I don't even think kills or questing gives XP. They kept the skill leveling intact but levels are gained like your typical MMO. This was probably done for multiplayer purposes. Keep in mind that in Skyrim the whole world is leveled to you, so it doesn't matter where you go, you'll always find mobs that are your level. That would be impossible in an MMO setting. However, I do think they could've reduced the number of quests and more or less kept the leveling system, giving players plenty of room to just wander and explore. I also wish there were more random dynamic events happening in the world. In Skyrim, you never knew when there would be a vampire bandit mage attacking with a dragon and a bear the same time. And none of it was scripted. You simply don't have that kind of thing in TESO. Unfortunate, but maybe someday that will change.

Bladestrom

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Bit confuzzled since questing in ESO is certainly not linear and are well written and acted, and you certainly don't play for stats or gear until you are hundreds of hours into the game (on the assumption you are not a locust)   Maybe you should look again, since it has pretty much evolved to be exactly what you describe.  I will give you a concrete example, I was wandering around in a zone at a higher level than me to gather and I managed to complete a quest that was aimed at a higher level.  A Couple weeks later I arrived at the town near to the quest giver and the town NPC's were talking about what I had done.  That's a major boon for role playing.

Agree with the others though they were deliberately designed around the stat/power gain model.

I know what he means. he is looking for the "head and and see a door in a hillside and have an adventure" experience.

Some people don't play the elder scrolls games like this, they just play the quests. However, those who spend hours, days, months and yes, years, explore, adopt characterization and lose themselves in the world.

 

ye that's true, so many times you see people who just fundamentally don't get what role playing means - they think its people saying 'forsooth shalt i get thy a cup of tea' , exploration and large open worlds is where it has always been at.  As soon as you see someone talk about 'exciting action' and fast travel and down-time etc etc within the context of a mmorpg you know they are actually playing a mmorpg and arguing for it to be something else entirely.

 

vadio123

but but elder scroll are grind (i not talk online but well grind to)

everything its grind , its loop repetitive tasks util you get whats you want archive 

Bladestrom

lol no it doesn't. I have spent about 100 hours so far in ESO and repeated nothing, probably 500 in Skyrim, same again in morrowind.  The only people who grind are those that want to.  Why were you grinding if you don't like it?

Azaron_Nightblade

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Bit confuzzled since questing in ESO is certainly not linear and are well written and acted, and you certainly don't play for stats or gear until you are hundreds of hours into the game (on the assumption you are not a locust)   Maybe you should look again, since it has pretty much evolved to be exactly what you describe.  I will give you a concrete example, I was wandering around in a zone at a higher level than me to gather and I managed to complete a quest that was aimed at a higher level.  A Couple weeks later I arrived at the town near to the quest giver and the town NPC's were talking about what I had done.  That's a major boon for role playing.

Agree with the others though they were deliberately designed around the stat/power gain model.

I know what he means. he is looking for the "head and and see a door in a hillside and have an adventure" experience.

Some people don't play the elder scrolls games like this, they just play the quests. However, those who spend hours, days, months and yes, years, explore, adopt characterization and lose themselves in the world.

 

There's little stopping him from doing that on ESO either. There's plenty of "public" dungeons and other sites that are explorable. (Many of which hide a Skyshard somewhere inside them)

Plenty of self-contained little storylines all over the place too. For example when I was playing Ebonheart Pact, I came across this plantation where the oppressed slaves had summoned a nasty spirit to visit retribution upon their tormentors, with some pretty devastating results. The storyline has you discover what happened, and fix it. You even get to choose what happens to the summoner. And it's completely separate from the main storyline, or even on the progression path.

You find stand-alone stories all the time when you wander off the path in ESO. It's why each zone takes me forever to finish. I don't leave until I've searched every nook and cranny. :P

Sovrath

Originally posted by Bladestrom
lol no it doesn't. I have spent about 100 hours so far in ESO and repeated nothing, probably 500 in Skyrim, same again in morrowind.  The only people who grind are those that want to.  Why were you grinding if you don't like it?

I currently have 1,123 hours in skyrim alone so I don't really get the grind part.

I think people say it's a grind because they want a certain skill at x level so they set up a grind over and over again in order to get this.

This is NOT the way to play.

 

The one caveat I have to that is when I first played morrowind I entered a dwemer ruin to get a puzzle box. There were some bandits there who gave me some trouble because my fireball spell kept failing.

Once I dispatched them I set up in the main cavern and "practiced" my fireball spell until it fired more often than not.

For me, in this now lonely, dark space, it felt like I was holing myself up, locking myself away from the world so that I could better myself.

It was a very immersive experience for me.

 

But for someone who just sits there and repeats a skill over and over again with no context other than "must get it to 85" then I can see where these games would be a grind.

 

NobleNerd

Originally posted by Bladestrom
lol no it doesn't. I have spent about 100 hours so far in ESO and repeated nothing, probably 500 in Skyrim, same again in morrowind.  The only people who grind are those that want to.  Why were you grinding if you don't like it?

Thank you.

 

Every game ever made is designed at the core as a repetitive grind. Some people find the game play and stories fun and others don't. It is all about whether you enjoy the content and if you don't move on until you find one you like.

All that said there are games that just are poor design and make the grind completely unpleasant (most Korean games for example). TESO has kept me engaged in the game with little feel of a grind. I enjoy the world, characters, story and more now... the combat. With the introduction of the Justice System next patch it will feel even more like an Elder Scrolls game... shortly after this hopefully the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood!

Bladestrom

Originally posted by NobleNerd

Originally posted by Bladestrom
lol no it doesn't. I have spent about 100 hours so far in ESO and repeated nothing, probably 500 in Skyrim, same again in morrowind.  The only people who grind are those that want to.  Why were you grinding if you don't like it?

Thank you.

 

Every game ever made is designed at the core as a repetitive grind. Some people find the game play and stories fun and others don't. It is all about whether you enjoy the content and if you don't move on until you find one you like.

All that said there are games that just are poor design and make the grind completely unpleasant (most Korean games for example). TESO has kept me engaged in the game with little feel of a grind. I enjoy the world, characters, story and more now... the combat. With the introduction of the Justice System next patch it will feel even more like an Elder Scrolls game... shortly after this hopefully the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood!

edit, i agree

Dreamo84

I have had countless random quests I found in ESO that not only told an awesome story but also connected to the main story or another side quest in some way that made me go "a ha!" and that's cool.

Orious

I hate questing MMOs... Except for 2: DCUO and ESO. If you like TES lore then ESO is great because there's so much of it. If you want to level your skills by performing actions, ESO does that "half way" in that you have to have the skills on your bar in order to gain XP in them.

 

But what you want is not an ES MMO. You want a SKyrim Co-op. Skyrim is a single-player game. TESO can be if you want it to be, but I played 30 levels with my friends (and then stayed in Cyrodiil for 20 levels). 

 

I used to call all these MMOs singelplayer games that have been coming out, but really they just give you the option to play alone.... no one says you have too.

 

If you don't acre about TES lore or TES quests, then play Darkfall. ESO has more lore and TES quests in any TES games... 

nariusseldon

Originally posted by tixylix

I used to just play an MMO to be in the world, but now people even see the world as getting in the way and don't even want it any more, they want crap like Destiny. That isn't what the genre was made for, Destiny and other stuff like it aren't even MMOs but it feels like the genre is dead and that is what it has become. 

 All I want is The Elder Scrolls as an MMO, one where I can enjoy the world, I can enjoy the content and it isn't all stats, checklists and getting through it as quick as possible. Yeah getting new gear is nice, but what happened to playing because it was fun?

well .. the only thing i read here is that you don't like what others like. Yes, they don't want the world anymore because it is in the way of their fun. Have you ever considered that good combat + bounty + loot is fun for some? If not, the diablo series which is unapologetically nothing but fun combat, loot & gear/build optimization, will not be so popular.

And yes, nothing happened to playing because it is fun ... it is fun for those who goes through the progress "checklist" as you say.

If it is not fun, why wouldn't people just play some other games .. it is not like there is a lack of alternate entertainment.

 

nerovipus32

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Bit confuzzled since questing in ESO is certainly not linear and are well written and acted, and you certainly don't play for stats or gear until you are hundreds of hours into the game (on the assumption you are not a locust)   Maybe you should look again, since it has pretty much evolved to be exactly what you describe.  I will give you a concrete example, I was wandering around in a zone at a higher level than me to gather and I managed to complete a quest that was aimed at a higher level.  A Couple weeks later I arrived at the town near to the quest giver and the town NPC's were talking about what I had done.  That's a major boon for role playing.

Agree with the others though they were deliberately designed around the stat/power gain model.

I know what he means. he is looking for the "head and and see a door in a hillside and have an adventure" experience.

Some people don't play the elder scrolls games like this, they just play the quests. However, those who spend hours, days, months and yes, years, explore, adopt characterization and lose themselves in the world.

 

Which is exactly what you can do in ESO.

Mikeha

ESO is good and it will get better.

Sovrath

Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Bit confuzzled since questing in ESO is certainly not linear and are well written and acted, and you certainly don't play for stats or gear until you are hundreds of hours into the game (on the assumption you are not a locust)   Maybe you should look again, since it has pretty much evolved to be exactly what you describe.  I will give you a concrete example, I was wandering around in a zone at a higher level than me to gather and I managed to complete a quest that was aimed at a higher level.  A Couple weeks later I arrived at the town near to the quest giver and the town NPC's were talking about what I had done.  That's a major boon for role playing.

Agree with the others though they were deliberately designed around the stat/power gain model.

I know what he means. he is looking for the "head and and see a door in a hillside and have an adventure" experience.

Some people don't play the elder scrolls games like this, they just play the quests. However, those who spend hours, days, months and yes, years, explore, adopt characterization and lose themselves in the world.

 

There's little stopping him from doing that on ESO either. There's plenty of "public" dungeons and other sites that are explorable. (Many of which hide a Skyshard somewhere inside them)

 

I've played probably two and a half years in Morrowind, about that in Oblivion and as I mentioned, I have 1,123 hours in skyrim.

The dungeons, at least the public dungeons, in ESO just aren't the same.

If they were then Elder Scrolls Online would be the only mmo I would need. This is not a complaint but merely pointing out that the experience of Elder Scrolls Online really isn't on par with any of the single player games. And not becuase they are single player games and ESO is an mmo.

In the single player games you can spend quite some time in those dungeons. In ESO, you can pretty much get through it in a few minutes. 

GeezerGamer

I don't grind in Skyrim, I just play.

aesperus

Originally posted by tixylix

When I look at any MMO of today all you do is run down a linear path which takes you from 1 - end level grinding checklists. I was trying to play WoW the other day and all I was doing was running from hub to hub getting lots of quests and then going out, killing x number, collecting x number of this and delivering stuff. People go on about how WoWs quests are so amazing these days... no they've just surrounded it all in fluff and it isn't the only MMO guilty of it.

**snip for length**

All I want is The Elder Scrolls as an MMO, one where I can enjoy the world, I can enjoy the content and it isn't all stats, checklists and getting through it as quick as possible. Yeah getting new gear is nice, but what happened to playing because it was fun?

I hear ya, but what you're describing is a biproduct of the internet, and not the MMO. Any games with progression are going to have guides showing how to complete it the fastest way possible. This then permeates into the general gaming population as more and more people start doing it, and spreading that knowledge in-game.

Even if they took skyrim and just enabled MMO servers, you would still have many of these problems. The combat would still be awful, people would still be camping specific rewards, skipping certain areas of the game to focus on only the most profitable. Heck they'd probably be abusing the lvl scaling to grind certain dungeons over and over again.

The thing that's easy to forget about single player games, is that you tend to play them in a vacuum. Just because you are playing it mostly in isolation, doesn't mean the game doesn't have flaws or exploits. It just means you haven't found them yet. Heck, if you ever watch speedruns, or AGDQ they are still finding exploits for some of our most beloved games growing up with. New super mario glitches that people never found are still popping up. When you make a game an MMO, this kind of knowledge is no longer isolated. Everyone gets exposed to it. It's part of what makes MMOs a completely different beast from single player games.

nerovipus32

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Bit confuzzled since questing in ESO is certainly not linear and are well written and acted, and you certainly don't play for stats or gear until you are hundreds of hours into the game (on the assumption you are not a locust)   Maybe you should look again, since it has pretty much evolved to be exactly what you describe.  I will give you a concrete example, I was wandering around in a zone at a higher level than me to gather and I managed to complete a quest that was aimed at a higher level.  A Couple weeks later I arrived at the town near to the quest giver and the town NPC's were talking about what I had done.  That's a major boon for role playing.

Agree with the others though they were deliberately designed around the stat/power gain model.

I know what he means. he is looking for the "head and and see a door in a hillside and have an adventure" experience.

Some people don't play the elder scrolls games like this, they just play the quests. However, those who spend hours, days, months and yes, years, explore, adopt characterization and lose themselves in the world.

 

There's little stopping him from doing that on ESO either. There's plenty of "public" dungeons and other sites that are explorable. (Many of which hide a Skyshard somewhere inside them)

 

I've played probably two and a half years in Morrowind, about that in Oblivion and as I mentioned, I have 1,123 hours in skyrim.

The dungeons, at least the public dungeons, in ESO just aren't the same.

If they were then Elder Scrolls Online would be the only mmo I would need. This is not a complaint but merely pointing out that the experience of Elder Scrolls Online really isn't on par with any of the single player games. And not becuase they are single player games and ESO is an mmo.

In the single player games you can spend quite some time in those dungeons. In ESO, you can pretty much get through it in a few minutes. 

You're comparing a single player game to an MMO. Silly silly silly....

Bladestrom

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Bit confuzzled since questing in ESO is certainly not linear and are well written and acted, and you certainly don't play for stats or gear until you are hundreds of hours into the game (on the assumption you are not a locust)   Maybe you should look again, since it has pretty much evolved to be exactly what you describe.  I will give you a concrete example, I was wandering around in a zone at a higher level than me to gather and I managed to complete a quest that was aimed at a higher level.  A Couple weeks later I arrived at the town near to the quest giver and the town NPC's were talking about what I had done.  That's a major boon for role playing.

Agree with the others though they were deliberately designed around the stat/power gain model.

I know what he means. he is looking for the "head and and see a door in a hillside and have an adventure" experience.

Some people don't play the elder scrolls games like this, they just play the quests. However, those who spend hours, days, months and yes, years, explore, adopt characterization and lose themselves in the world.

 

There's little stopping him from doing that on ESO either. There's plenty of "public" dungeons and other sites that are explorable. (Many of which hide a Skyshard somewhere inside them)

 

I've played probably two and a half years in Morrowind, about that in Oblivion and as I mentioned, I have 1,123 hours in skyrim.

The dungeons, at least the public dungeons, in ESO just aren't the same.

If they were then Elder Scrolls Online would be the only mmo I would need. This is not a complaint but merely pointing out that the experience of Elder Scrolls Online really isn't on par with any of the single player games. And not becuase they are single player games and ESO is an mmo.

In the single player games you can spend quite some time in those dungeons. In ESO, you can pretty much get through it in a few minutes. 

Thats not what he was saying though.  He was suggesting ESO is another linear, stat/xp driven hub-quest fest, when it just isnt.  Now the dungeons in ESO could be better, but the'e's always things that can be improved in any game.  My point was that the Elder spirit is there - you can just wander and explore and level just as you do in Skyrim, in fact the game has been designed to encourage just that.   You can craft and experiment with random builds and the lore is just as good - indeed much has been ported directly from other games.

 Skrim is a better single player experience - the whole world game engine and data is revolving around you - it should be! 

Best of both worlds, Skyrim specialised for the solo moddable experience, and ESO for the MMORPG.  win win, and neither have a quest hub with yellow ! in sight.

Viper482

Originally posted by vadio123

but but elder scroll are grind (i not talk online but well grind to)

everything its grind , its loop repetitive tasks util you get whats you want archive 

You only grind in TES when you WANT to grind. You actually have to deliberately grind in those games, they never force you to.

Viper482

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Bit confuzzled since questing in ESO is certainly not linear and are well written and acted, and you certainly don't play for stats or gear until you are hundreds of hours into the game (on the assumption you are not a locust)   Maybe you should look again, since it has pretty much evolved to be exactly what you describe.  I will give you a concrete example, I was wandering around in a zone at a higher level than me to gather and I managed to complete a quest that was aimed at a higher level.  A Couple weeks later I arrived at the town near to the quest giver and the town NPC's were talking about what I had done.  That's a major boon for role playing.

Agree with the others though they were deliberately designed around the stat/power gain model.

I know what he means. he is looking for the "head and and see a door in a hillside and have an adventure" experience.

Some people don't play the elder scrolls games like this, they just play the quests. However, those who spend hours, days, months and yes, years, explore, adopt characterization and lose themselves in the world.

 

There's little stopping him from doing that on ESO either. There's plenty of "public" dungeons and other sites that are explorable. (Many of which hide a Skyshard somewhere inside them)

 

I've played probably two and a half years in Morrowind, about that in Oblivion and as I mentioned, I have 1,123 hours in skyrim.

The dungeons, at least the public dungeons, in ESO just aren't the same.

If they were then Elder Scrolls Online would be the only mmo I would need. This is not a complaint but merely pointing out that the experience of Elder Scrolls Online really isn't on par with any of the single player games. And not becuase they are single player games and ESO is an mmo.

In the single player games you can spend quite some time in those dungeons. In ESO, you can pretty much get through it in a few minutes. 

Thats not what he was saying though.  He was suggesting ESO is another linear, stat/xp driven hub-quest fest, when it just isnt.  Now the dungeons in ESO could be better, but the'e's always things that can be improved in any game.  My point was that the Elder spirit is there - you can just wander and explore and level just as you do in Skyrim, in fact the game has been designed to encourage just that.   You can craft and experiment with random builds and the lore is just as good - indeed much has been ported directly from other games.

 Skrim is a better single player experience - the whole world game engine and data is revolving around you - it should be! 

Best of both worlds, Skyrim specialised for the solo moddable experience, and ESO for the MMORPG.  win win, and neither have a quest hub with yellow ! in sight.

But it is....because I have to level up in order to advance to the next zone. Either you have to grind quests or you have to grind mobs, either way you are grinding. You cannot even leave the zone you are in without grinding out of it lol. Have to be a certain level.

 

The biggest problem I have with ESO is they put in the bad of MMOs but didn't put in the good stuff MMOs should offer, it is a very anti-social experience.

Overlord_Neizir

I don't think you've played ESO, OP. It is not repetitive by any means...Skyrim was more repetitive, just endless "radiant quests". Quests in ESO are beautifully crafted and you'll never find one that asks you to go kill 10 wolves or some other tripe like you'd find in WoW and FFXIV. The NPC interaction in ESO is leagues ahead of Skyrim, as well. Same with the crime system, vast improvements all around.

aesperus

Originally posted by Viper482

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Originally posted by Sovrath

But it is....because I have to level up in order to advance to the next zone. Either you have to grind quests or you have to grind mobs, either way you are grinding. You cannot even leave the zone you are in without grinding out of it lol. Have to be a certain level.

The biggest problem I have with ESO is they put in the bad of MMOs but didn't put in the good stuff MMOs should offer, it is a very anti-social experience.

Anything can be considered 'grind' if you don't enjoy it.

And the single player TES games also have areas you can't really handle until your character gets stronger. Now, they absolutely do a better job of hiding this in the single player games, but it's present in all TES games, not just ESO. For example, in Skyrim, good luck dealing w/ some of the frost trolls, later dragons, or vampires straight out of the tutorial.

ESO has zones which do a poorer job at disguising this illusion, but you do still have options when leveling. You can grind, you can do quests, you can do dungeons, you can pvp. You aren't forced to stay and 100% any of the zones, and you can often skip to harder zones at lower lvls than suggested.

IMHO the only huge problem w/ progression in the game are veteran ranks, and the phasing issues (both of which they're trying to get rid of). Take those two things away, you can hit cap in a day if you wish, or you can take your time going through all the zones.

rodingo

Originally posted by Overlord_Neizir
I don't think you've played ESO, OP. It is not repetitive by any means...Skyrim was more repetitive, just endless "radiant quests". Quests in ESO are beautifully crafted and you'll never find one that asks you to go kill 10 wolves or some other tripe like you'd find in WoW and FFXIV. The NPC interaction in ESO is leagues ahead of Skyrim, as well. Same with the crime system, vast improvements all around.

Who are you trying to convince? Us or yourself?  Also ESO's crime system is non-existent.  If ESO is so superior to Skyrim, wouldn't you think it would have sold more copies?