Originally posted by Horusra Way to go ESO at being #2 in the Western market.
well according to the link only WoW made more cash. Now I could believe a site that use analytics or I could believe people that use things like "I believe", "I think", or "In my opinion". Tough choice.
Hey I'm all about sources too. Which link shows ESO being #2 in the western market? Also, is it referring to sells, subs, boxes sold, bad reviews? Sorry I jumped the gun with the "LOLWUT" pic. I have just never heard of ESO being number 2 at anything.
First link up there said behind WoW ESO make 111 mill and SWTOR 107. there were MOBA's and hearthstone ahead of them, but those were the MMORPG's.
When you consider that the 111 million includes all those imperial edition boxes and all those tourist that only stay for the first month or two of an MMO yet ESO was still only barely ahead of SWTOR by September says volumes about just how badly ESO is doing. This also means that SWTOR almost certainly pulled ahead of ESO in the final three months of 2014.
So yes, you're technically correct that if you only consider the period from January 2014 to September 2014 ESO was the number two Western MMO. But the idea that a new release with a big time IP and box sales could only marginally stay ahead of a three year old f2p game that had been troubled since launch is kinda laughable.
I've been playing ESO since launch except for 2 months and I spend 85% of my time in Cyrodiil. my guild and I are hugely disappointed in Zenimax when it comes to pvp. They had such a good start to work with and if it had been improved upon and added onto could of been great.
Yet, the population cap is 1/3 of what it was at launch and the lag is 5x as bad. There's been no content added. Target caps were added. Camps were removed. Countless nerfs making skills unusable instead of buffing other skills. Rediculous game breaking bugs like when bat swarm stacked, when the lethal arrow debuff stacked, and the ability to exploit damage by litteraly 1 hitting people ( used to happen a lot still happens but not nearly as often) all took weeks-months to fix.
What could of been a game to keep RvR pvpers for years is simply now a shell of what it was that only keeps some of us "occupied" till CU or a better open world pvp game comes along.
Haxus Council Member 21 year MMO veteran PvP Raid Leader Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Tbh, I found ESO one of the most boring MMOs I have seen. I can't even 100% say why. I loved the open roaming in Skyrim and the other ES single player games. But transported into an MMO simply didn't work for me. All what made an ES single player game cool, was totally devoid in ESO. Maybe just bringing in other people was the bad thing for me. Can't say.
I know I make myself immensely unpopular, but I always thought it would have been way better, if ESO would have been a "normal" MMO just set in the Elder Scrolls universe. It feels way too much like a single player game with online lobby. They cut off many of the normal MMO fuctionalities, or brought them much later and in a crappy way. I can't remember I ever was so bored with a Triple A MMORPG so quickly as with ESO. I don't see what they can do, other than scrap the game and start anew and release a good ESOII in 5-6 years lol.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
If Zenimax can't fix the **** LFG tool, they need to make a simple interface where I can post ''Daily Vet Dungeon, LF2M Tank+DPS'' and then people can apply to the group or if they can't even code an apply button, people will whisper directly ffs ....
End... It's not that ****ing complex to add... Could have been done in a day or two ... I guess they preferred working on the cash shop.
I've been wondering if the console release will be enough to pull ESO out of the fire. In terms of subs it tanked hugely since release, for a variety of oft-mentioned reasons such as buggy initial release, not living up to expectations of ES fans, repeated buggy and flawed updates, very poorly implemented placeholder for higher level progression (VR system), poor and degrading PvP performance, etc.
My prediction: after an initial infusion of cash from early adopters on console, a few months later the vast majority will leave and the game will limp along with a very small population of loyalists, just as it has done on PC over the last 6 months. Oh, and the PC side will sort of mirror this, but with a smaller rise but equivalent fall. I expect the PC side to be unprofitable but propped up from the minimal sales the console is making.
The reason: it's just not a very engaging game. It's average. Other ES games went gangbusters on console because they were great games. ESO is just OK. On PC it didn't capture the hearts and minds like the single player ES games did, and it will do even less so on console. In addition, ESO appeals to an older crowd. It has a slower pace and is a bit simpler than most MMORPGs. The extreme casual nature may be attractive to many console players, but the slow pace will turn many off. The average/lackluster design and gameplay, combined with the slower pace and basic content means it won't have broad appeal like the single player ES games, but will be a fairly small niche in the end.
I've seen repeated time and time again that ESO "had/has potential". The idea of an ES MMORPG had potential, but the dev's vision, from the ground up, is what has made this a niche game. I mean, many people, as well as this article, have mentioned the problems with buggy updates, bad PvP performance, poorly designed VR system, and now limited updates and PC players being marginalised, but that's looking at the branches and not seeing the roots of the issue. Which is that at it's heart (and everywhere else that's apparent), that the devs have been and will continue to be only capable of designing a game that is just - meh.
There is so much wasted potential in this game for pvp. I finally unsubbed this month. I had been a subscriber since early access hoping for better.
ESO totally doesn't get "incentivizing." I have never seen a game with shittier rewards.
PVPers have been so ignored since launch. Craglorn is such a fail. What a waste of resources.
Honestly, I cannot understand most of the decisions that are being made with this game. And developer communication is horrible. Not only is it sparse in certain areas that really need to be addressed, but it is quite often disingenuous.
My opinion is that if you don't like a game, then don't read articles pertaining to said game in which you either have no clue about or just post because nobody else will listen to you in the games you do play.
Long story short; go away and bother people in games you do play.
"ZOS wants to ensure that patch 1.6 is completely polished so they can release it on consoles and have as little hiccups as possible, but because of this the PC players have to suffer with doing the same content that we’ve been doing since November."
You realize the console players have been missing out on the game entirely while Zenimax caters to fixing the PC version for the last year right? I think the console version is way overdue.
Before you PC holier than thou people start trying to crap on my post, understand one thing. I work on computers for a living, I have a dozen computers between home and work that are more than capable of running this game...
But I do not want to go home and play on a computer when I have been dealing with everyone elses P.O.S. computers all day long. I want to go home and relax with a good game.
Totally agree with the article even though I think its a great game. I won't have the same problem as others as far as already finishing the content as I stopped playing months ago in preparation for all these changes. I left with one character at Vet 1 and another around level 35. I'm debating if I want to rejoin now or sometime after the console release. The game seems to have improved tremendously since release and its a shame they are going away from their promised of regular content updates just to make the console folks happy. Anyway, still so busy with Dragon Age and with Witcher 3 coming out soon who cares lol.
those are all very valid points. Also, I agree on all of them. BUT -
Although you apologized for a somewhat negative tone, when you look at these complaints - it hasn't been a year yet? apr. 4th last year says google.
Considering the time it has been out, GW2 for example has gripes that are far more serious after almost 3 years.
All points made are valid, but the lack of larger issues does speak to the healthy state of the game, and responsive nature of the dev team. Again, referencing GW2.... I have played plenty of other MMO's but I find this a good comparison to ESO, as they are both aiming for that sweet sweet 2nd place.
Funny how ESO wins a popularity contest. Then has to change it's business model due to lack of subscriptions. Everything is great though right guys? LTB imperial city....
those are all very valid points. Also, I agree on all of them. BUT -
Although you apologized for a somewhat negative tone, when you look at these complaints - it hasn't been a year yet? apr. 4th last year says google.
Considering the time it has been out, GW2 for example has gripes that are far more serious after almost 3 years.
All points made are valid, but the lack of larger issues does speak to the healthy state of the game, and responsive nature of the dev team. Again, referencing GW2.... I have played plenty of other MMO's but I find this a good comparison to ESO, as they are both aiming for that sweet sweet 2nd place.
oooooooooooor maybe im completely wrong
Maybe/Maybe not. I prefer GW2 but someone else prefers ESO. Both have name recognition but ultimately the problem with ESO is content IMO. I have heard this from many people that walk away from the game. Again same could be said for GW2, but I found it took me much longer to go through the GW2 content and with ESO I don't feel any replay value which is a big issue for me. Just my 2 cents.
cool, yea I feel like GW2 is more.... classic? going to be around longer? has more soul? it's something.
however, ESO is much much MUCH more enjoyable on a character progression perspective... however, lvling in GW2 is more seamless with all the lvl adjustments, etc.
a tough nut to crack indeed.... I think both games are great! GW2 needs more horizontal progression/variety of builds, (IMO) and ESO needs some leadership.. or something thesaurasy like that. (IMO)
cool, yea I feel like GW2 is more.... classic? going to be around longer? has more soul? it's something.
however, ESO is much much MUCH more enjoyable on a character progression perspective... however, lvling in GW2 is more seamless with all the lvl adjustments, etc.
a tough nut to crack indeed.... I think both games are great! GW2 needs more horizontal progression/variety of builds, (IMO) and ESO needs some leadership.. or something thesaurasy like that. (IMO)
thank god mmorpg.com gives us a platform!
GW2 will get even more horizontal progression and variety when the expac launches. As far as ESO needing some leadership? Hmmm,..well it would be interesting if Bethesda handed it over to Todd Howard, though of course he said he never intended to turn the ES IP into an MMO in the first place. Obviously he doesn't make those type of big decisions there though.
It's going to be interesting to see what's going to happen to ESO once they release the next Elder Scrolls game. Will they intentionally keep the next Elder Scrolls game from having any multiplayer or coop so it won't compete with ESO? Though ES never really had a multiplayer component to begin with due to it's design, I can't help but wonder if they will cave in to all of those that want to play ES with their friends.
Stunning as it may seep.I think Matt Firror has written off ESO AVA development .Certainly he has not done anything in the past...and has ZERO plans for the future. Stunning for a person who was brought on because of his DAOC background.
I"M PROFOUNDLY DISAPPOINTED IN THE LACK OF AVA DEVELOPMENT.
I sent the only message ESO might listen to...I cancelled my ESO subscription and re-started my DAOC subscription.
(btw DAOC game development far surpasses ESo's AvA non-development.)
Stunning as it may seep.I think Matt Firror has written off ESO AVA development .Certainly he has not done anything in the past...and has ZERO plans for the future. Stunning for a person who was brought on because of his DAOC background.
I"M PROFOUNDLY DISAPPOINTED IN THE LACK OF AVA DEVELOPMENT.
I sent the only message ESO might listen to...I cancelled my ESO subscription and re-started my DAOC subscription.
(btw DAOC game development far surpasses ESo's AvA non-development.)
AVA will get its day. They have been improving and changing so much other stuff that there are bound to be some things that will be worked on later.
The eye test my playing the game tells me that they do not have to go B2P as I see people everywhere in all zones ( not to forget the copies of those zones and the other factions and those copies ) but for consoles it is the best thing to do for ESO. There are more ES fans on consoles than PC by far and removing the sub will attract many more of those fans.
My only worry is that ( and would be in my open letter ) the DLC they make will be small in size and they will drop the idea of expanding areas of Tamriel that are not available right now and that there will be little or no more world content added in favor of instance content.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Originally posted by Battlerock I actually wish this game would go away.
Keep wishing. There is WoW then ESO, then everything else. ESO is here to stay.
Nice write up Ryan. It's hard to disagree with anything you said.
ESO is here to stay as B2P, probably as F2P at some point. Just like Dragon Nest or League of Angels are here to stay. It's great that people enjoy the game they're playing, but pretending they're doing better than the games that others are playing just because it's the one they're playing is rather childish and pretentious.
ESO is not even in the top 5 current mmo's in terms of profit and active playerbase.
On another line of thought, some people are pointing out that that Zenimax are using PC users to pay bugtesting for console players, and honestly, the way PC users are being shunned and mistreated these days, I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's the case.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Originally posted by Darthus This article lists ESO as 111 million and SWTOR as 106 million. WoW was the only western mmo above it, so in that sense the previous post was right.
Once again, look at what the table is showing you and think about what the numbers mean. That's total revenue from January 2014 to September 2014.
ESO is getting credit for all the Imperial Editions bought on hype and all the people who only stayed for a few months up against a three year old f2p game with a troubled history. If you actually compared that 111 million ESO made in it's first 6 months to what SWTOR made in it's first 6 months I believe you would find SWTOR ahead by at least a factor of two if not three or four.
Also given that all those box sales and MMO tourists that only stayed a few months are counted in the 111 million it's fairly safe to say SWTOR almost certainly went on to pass ESO for 2014 overall.
The lfg system was the reason i left the game ... i had such a hard time finding groups for dungeons i gave up. An other point was too few quests for each level (if you find only higher level quests and then you don't find a dungeon using lfg its a bit sad.)
But i still think it is one of the best games at the moment ... it has a great adventure feeling to it
I was planning to return next month once the paid beta is over. Seems like waiting until June (or even July) might be wiser.
I'm thinking waiting for the demise of the poxy VR system might be wiser. That was obviously such a BS thing to hold players (though actually drove many away). I think I was kinda having fun up until that that point, actually I might run an alt to 50 come March and then take stock again then. I'm not sure I have high hopes after all the rhetoric (actually turns out to be out and out BS) defending the sub model when a year on there are still issues (such as those mentioned in the article).
Comments
When you consider that the 111 million includes all those imperial edition boxes and all those tourist that only stay for the first month or two of an MMO yet ESO was still only barely ahead of SWTOR by September says volumes about just how badly ESO is doing. This also means that SWTOR almost certainly pulled ahead of ESO in the final three months of 2014.
So yes, you're technically correct that if you only consider the period from January 2014 to September 2014 ESO was the number two Western MMO. But the idea that a new release with a big time IP and box sales could only marginally stay ahead of a three year old f2p game that had been troubled since launch is kinda laughable.
I've been playing ESO since launch except for 2 months and I spend 85% of my time in Cyrodiil. my guild and I are hugely disappointed in Zenimax when it comes to pvp. They had such a good start to work with and if it had been improved upon and added onto could of been great.
Yet, the population cap is 1/3 of what it was at launch and the lag is 5x as bad. There's been no content added. Target caps were added. Camps were removed. Countless nerfs making skills unusable instead of buffing other skills. Rediculous game breaking bugs like when bat swarm stacked, when the lethal arrow debuff stacked, and the ability to exploit damage by litteraly 1 hitting people ( used to happen a lot still happens but not nearly as often) all took weeks-months to fix.
What could of been a game to keep RvR pvpers for years is simply now a shell of what it was that only keeps some of us "occupied" till CU or a better open world pvp game comes along.
21 year MMO veteran
PvP Raid Leader
Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Tbh, I found ESO one of the most boring MMOs I have seen. I can't even 100% say why. I loved the open roaming in Skyrim and the other ES single player games. But transported into an MMO simply didn't work for me. All what made an ES single player game cool, was totally devoid in ESO. Maybe just bringing in other people was the bad thing for me. Can't say.
I know I make myself immensely unpopular, but I always thought it would have been way better, if ESO would have been a "normal" MMO just set in the Elder Scrolls universe. It feels way too much like a single player game with online lobby. They cut off many of the normal MMO fuctionalities, or brought them much later and in a crappy way. I can't remember I ever was so bored with a Triple A MMORPG so quickly as with ESO. I don't see what they can do, other than scrap the game and start anew and release a good ESOII in 5-6 years lol.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
If Zenimax can't fix the **** LFG tool, they need to make a simple interface where I can post ''Daily Vet Dungeon, LF2M Tank+DPS'' and then people can apply to the group or if they can't even code an apply button, people will whisper directly ffs ....
End... It's not that ****ing complex to add... Could have been done in a day or two ... I guess they preferred working on the cash shop.
I've been wondering if the console release will be enough to pull ESO out of the fire. In terms of subs it tanked hugely since release, for a variety of oft-mentioned reasons such as buggy initial release, not living up to expectations of ES fans, repeated buggy and flawed updates, very poorly implemented placeholder for higher level progression (VR system), poor and degrading PvP performance, etc.
My prediction: after an initial infusion of cash from early adopters on console, a few months later the vast majority will leave and the game will limp along with a very small population of loyalists, just as it has done on PC over the last 6 months. Oh, and the PC side will sort of mirror this, but with a smaller rise but equivalent fall. I expect the PC side to be unprofitable but propped up from the minimal sales the console is making.
The reason: it's just not a very engaging game. It's average. Other ES games went gangbusters on console because they were great games. ESO is just OK. On PC it didn't capture the hearts and minds like the single player ES games did, and it will do even less so on console. In addition, ESO appeals to an older crowd. It has a slower pace and is a bit simpler than most MMORPGs. The extreme casual nature may be attractive to many console players, but the slow pace will turn many off. The average/lackluster design and gameplay, combined with the slower pace and basic content means it won't have broad appeal like the single player ES games, but will be a fairly small niche in the end.
I've seen repeated time and time again that ESO "had/has potential". The idea of an ES MMORPG had potential, but the dev's vision, from the ground up, is what has made this a niche game. I mean, many people, as well as this article, have mentioned the problems with buggy updates, bad PvP performance, poorly designed VR system, and now limited updates and PC players being marginalised, but that's looking at the branches and not seeing the roots of the issue. Which is that at it's heart (and everywhere else that's apparent), that the devs have been and will continue to be only capable of designing a game that is just - meh.
Great letter, OP.
There is so much wasted potential in this game for pvp. I finally unsubbed this month. I had been a subscriber since early access hoping for better.
ESO totally doesn't get "incentivizing." I have never seen a game with shittier rewards.
PVPers have been so ignored since launch. Craglorn is such a fail. What a waste of resources.
Honestly, I cannot understand most of the decisions that are being made with this game. And developer communication is horrible. Not only is it sparse in certain areas that really need to be addressed, but it is quite often disingenuous.
Originally posted by Battlerock:
"I actually wish this game would go away."
My opinion is that if you don't like a game, then don't read articles pertaining to said game in which you either have no clue about or just post because nobody else will listen to you in the games you do play.
Long story short; go away and bother people in games you do play.
"ZOS wants to ensure that patch 1.6 is completely polished so they can release it on consoles and have as little hiccups as possible, but because of this the PC players have to suffer with doing the same content that we’ve been doing since November."
You realize the console players have been missing out on the game entirely while Zenimax caters to fixing the PC version for the last year right? I think the console version is way overdue.
Before you PC holier than thou people start trying to crap on my post, understand one thing. I work on computers for a living, I have a dozen computers between home and work that are more than capable of running this game...
But I do not want to go home and play on a computer when I have been dealing with everyone elses P.O.S. computers all day long. I want to go home and relax with a good game.
Not so nice guy!
There Is Always Hope!
I LIKE THIS ARTICLE!!!
those are all very valid points. Also, I agree on all of them. BUT -
Although you apologized for a somewhat negative tone, when you look at these complaints - it hasn't been a year yet? apr. 4th last year says google.
Considering the time it has been out, GW2 for example has gripes that are far more serious after almost 3 years.
All points made are valid, but the lack of larger issues does speak to the healthy state of the game, and responsive nature of the dev team. Again, referencing GW2.... I have played plenty of other MMO's but I find this a good comparison to ESO, as they are both aiming for that sweet sweet 2nd place.
oooooooooooor maybe im completely wrong
Maybe/Maybe not. I prefer GW2 but someone else prefers ESO. Both have name recognition but ultimately the problem with ESO is content IMO. I have heard this from many people that walk away from the game. Again same could be said for GW2, but I found it took me much longer to go through the GW2 content and with ESO I don't feel any replay value which is a big issue for me. Just my 2 cents.
cool, yea I feel like GW2 is more.... classic? going to be around longer? has more soul? it's something.
however, ESO is much much MUCH more enjoyable on a character progression perspective... however, lvling in GW2 is more seamless with all the lvl adjustments, etc.
a tough nut to crack indeed.... I think both games are great! GW2 needs more horizontal progression/variety of builds, (IMO) and ESO needs some leadership.. or something thesaurasy like that. (IMO)
thank god mmorpg.com gives us a platform!
GW2 will get even more horizontal progression and variety when the expac launches. As far as ESO needing some leadership? Hmmm,..well it would be interesting if Bethesda handed it over to Todd Howard, though of course he said he never intended to turn the ES IP into an MMO in the first place. Obviously he doesn't make those type of big decisions there though.
It's going to be interesting to see what's going to happen to ESO once they release the next Elder Scrolls game. Will they intentionally keep the next Elder Scrolls game from having any multiplayer or coop so it won't compete with ESO? Though ES never really had a multiplayer component to begin with due to it's design, I can't help but wonder if they will cave in to all of those that want to play ES with their friends.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
yea I'm so hopeful for the xpac. I just want as many options for my build as I have for my looks!
Really tho, I need to be clear - GW2 in terms of art and engine, is absolutely gorgeous!
Stunning as it may seep.I think Matt Firror has written off ESO AVA development .Certainly he has not done anything in the past...and has ZERO plans for the future. Stunning for a person who was brought on because of his DAOC background.
I"M PROFOUNDLY DISAPPOINTED IN THE LACK OF AVA DEVELOPMENT.
I sent the only message ESO might listen to...I cancelled my ESO subscription and re-started my DAOC subscription.
(btw DAOC game development far surpasses ESo's AvA non-development.)
http://venturebeat.com/2014/10/23/the-10-highest-grossing-online-pc-games-in-2014-hearthstone-dota-2-cant-compete-with-league-of-legends/
AVA will get its day. They have been improving and changing so much other stuff that there are bound to be some things that will be worked on later.
The eye test my playing the game tells me that they do not have to go B2P as I see people everywhere in all zones ( not to forget the copies of those zones and the other factions and those copies ) but for consoles it is the best thing to do for ESO. There are more ES fans on consoles than PC by far and removing the sub will attract many more of those fans.
My only worry is that ( and would be in my open letter ) the DLC they make will be small in size and they will drop the idea of expanding areas of Tamriel that are not available right now and that there will be little or no more world content added in favor of instance content.
Maybe this was the plan from the beginning? Let the PC gamers pay for bug testing.
----
----
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
ESO is here to stay as B2P, probably as F2P at some point. Just like Dragon Nest or League of Angels are here to stay. It's great that people enjoy the game they're playing, but pretending they're doing better than the games that others are playing just because it's the one they're playing is rather childish and pretentious.
ESO is not even in the top 5 current mmo's in terms of profit and active playerbase.
On another line of thought, some people are pointing out that that Zenimax are using PC users to pay bugtesting for console players, and honestly, the way PC users are being shunned and mistreated these days, I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's the case.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Once again, look at what the table is showing you and think about what the numbers mean. That's total revenue from January 2014 to September 2014.
ESO is getting credit for all the Imperial Editions bought on hype and all the people who only stayed for a few months up against a three year old f2p game with a troubled history. If you actually compared that 111 million ESO made in it's first 6 months to what SWTOR made in it's first 6 months I believe you would find SWTOR ahead by at least a factor of two if not three or four.
Also given that all those box sales and MMO tourists that only stayed a few months are counted in the 111 million it's fairly safe to say SWTOR almost certainly went on to pass ESO for 2014 overall.
The lfg system was the reason i left the game ... i had such a hard time finding groups for dungeons i gave up. An other point was too few quests for each level (if you find only higher level quests and then you don't find a dungeon using lfg its a bit sad.)
But i still think it is one of the best games at the moment ... it has a great adventure feeling to it
I was planning to return next month once the paid beta is over. Seems like waiting until June (or even July) might be wiser.
I'm thinking waiting for the demise of the poxy VR system might be wiser. That was obviously such a BS thing to hold players (though actually drove many away). I think I was kinda having fun up until that that point, actually I might run an alt to 50 come March and then take stock again then. I'm not sure I have high hopes after all the rhetoric (actually turns out to be out and out BS) defending the sub model when a year on there are still issues (such as those mentioned in the article).