Oh yes, because you certainly don't camp bosses for 2 months in modern MMORPG's for gear.
Unless you awfully SUCK, you definitely don't camp bosses for 2 months.
Sounds like an elitist assumption. How can you suck in a large raid group. Most won't let you even go if you had issues with your class, which many did. It happens even in today's MMORPG's, don't kid yourself.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar So which age has more depth?
Lots of similarities. Several differences. But more?
Well, considering "RPG" is more then combat, and old MMO's actually had the "RPG" part in the game, I would say, Yes. Some of this, I know is due to players now not caring for "RPG" (aka: Boring) aspects and some may still be in MMOs, but actually playing them is very difficult when the majority of the playerbase poo-poos the activities.
The answer will, of, course be different for different players. Those seeking combat simulators will think today's MMOs have much more depth, in how detailed they are in fighting skills, abilities, and activities. How can one compare EQ's Warriors with their autoattack, kick, bash, intimidate, and passive block and dodge skills having more depth then GW2's combat skill trees? There is no way
However, if a players seeks more the just combat activities, today's MMOs are truly lacking.
PS: WoW, in my head, is an old time MMO (2004) that has morphed into a more combat oriented game over the years, kind of like EQ lately. When you use WoW for examples, I get confused, which is nothing new
Wait what?!
I don't remember any RPGs being about the mundane things like, gathering & building stuff, tending animals etc. It was all about adventure.
Dont worry, modern MMOs are much much more closing on that RPG tabletop feel.
For instance - scaled gameworld (encounters) - encounter scales to your level/group size OR your stats scale to encounter level.
because, you know, never ever have i had tabletop experience where we went into encounter, got stomped and DM said "go camp some bosses (or whatever) for 2 months to get gear (stats) THIS high or said that we need x more people or we can go ......ourselves
This (and many more things like this) just tie in to my previous posts.
Oh yes, because you certainly don't camp bosses for 2 months in modern MMORPG's for gear.
I remember VIVIDLY in WoW having to repeat dungeons over and over and over, sometimes 3, 4, even 5 months in a dkp system trying to get the gear I wanted. And it didn't always even drop. That's STILL camping...it's just in shorter doses over longer periods of time IMO. Again...modern MMORPG's still have time sinks. They are just better at disguising them.
Look.....no one here is saying EQ1 was perfect and the greatest MMORPG ever. Just mentioning features FROM EQ1 that would be nice to see incorporated into modern MMORPG's to give them back that RPG feel, an actual community (Due to actually retaining it).
And that was still a relic in WoW, leftover form EQ, MMOs have evolved beyond that.
Even in vanilla only miniscule part of WoW was like that, endgame, and Blizzard admitted they consider it mistake/failure on their part. And guess who was part of developing WoWs vanilla endgame? Yup, thats right. Its history.
It would definitely NOT be nice incorporating any of those anti social mechanics. As i said, even "old school" kickstarters fail.
Then if you are SO convinced, why don't you let us at least have our thread on it and move on...since it obviously doesn't interest you. I'd say why I believe you stay in this thread...but I don't want another warning for pointing it out.
BTW, go through all these pages and count the people who agree with the initial post. Apparently plenty of people like the idea. Sadly though, majority rules, and it's those, which I won't name, who cry out "NO NO!", who are content with the same mouth breather fast action SP/cut scene/ hand holding/instanced driven "MMORPG's".
I could not get Everquest to work on my PC for the longest time so I joined late. I was very happy to finally be part of the big family when I got it to work. I never did get Vanguard to work on my PC. But for EQ the guild house rocked. And guildies kept making me all this great armor. But they were real shy and I couldn't get them to RP. They would do anything for me but talk to me so I got bored and left. Just doing quests wasn't enough and I didn't feel like guild hopping not after they'd been so nice to me.
Guild Wars 2 is huge like EQ with the never ending exploration and quests. Never played GW1, sorry to hear all those who think it was so much better than GW2.
My starter game was FFXI. Another very large world. FFXIV fixed some things that were wrong with FFXI (*cough* manthras *cough*) but it left out a few goodies that FFXI had (spread out teleports). Instead of being bitter most of the community has agreed that they are just different games. To bad SE is to proud to make FFXI a f2p.
I have mixed feelings about working hard in an mmo. You have to work way to hard in real life to get anything done. Games are for fun. Supposedly a break from labor. You should not have to "work" in games. Games are for "play." But if you make shiz way to easy it takes away the feeling of accomplishment - a fun aspect. The best answer so far is a variety of vanity items of equal visual appeal and value but obtained in different ways; some easy to get, some hard.
I could not get Everquest to work on my PC for the longest time so I joined late. I was very happy to finally be part of the big family when I got it to work. I never did get Vanguard to work on my PC. But for EQ the guild house rocked. And guildies kept making me all this great armor. But they were real shy and I couldn't get them to RP. They would do anything for me but talk to me so I got bored and left. Just doing quests wasn't enough and I didn't feel like guild hopping not after they'd been so nice to me.
Guild Wars 2 is huge like EQ with the never ending exploration and quests. Never played GW1, sorry to hear all those who think it was so much better than GW2.
My starter game was FFXI. Another very large world. FFXIV fixed some things that were wrong with FFXI (*cough* manthras *cough*) but it left out a few goodies that FFXI had (spread out teleports). Instead of being bitter most of the community has agreed that they are just different games. To bad SE is to proud to make FFXI a f2p.
I have mixed feelings about working hard in an mmo. You have to work way to hard in real life to get anything done. Games are for fun. Supposedly a break from labor. You should not have to "work" in games. Games are for "play." But if you make shiz way to easy it takes away the feeling of accomplishment - a fun aspect. The best answer so far is a variety of vanity items of equal visual appeal and value but obtained in different ways; some easy to get, some hard.
It's what set them apart from console games. Now, they ARE console games.
Sorry you got to it late, when did you star playing? I started in 99' and played on AOL dial-up lol.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar So which age has more depth?
Lots of similarities. Several differences. But more?
Well, considering "RPG" is more then combat, and old MMO's actually had the "RPG" part in the game, I would say, Yes. Some of this, I know is due to players now not caring for "RPG" (aka: Boring) aspects and some may still be in MMOs, but actually playing them is very difficult when the majority of the playerbase poo-poos the activities.
The answer will, of, course be different for different players. Those seeking combat simulators will think today's MMOs have much more depth, in how detailed they are in fighting skills, abilities, and activities. How can one compare EQ's Warriors with their autoattack, kick, bash, intimidate, and passive block and dodge skills having more depth then GW2's combat skill trees? There is no way
However, if a players seeks more the just combat activities, today's MMOs are truly lacking.
PS: WoW, in my head, is an old time MMO (2004) that has morphed into a more combat oriented game over the years, kind of like EQ lately. When you use WoW for examples, I get confused, which is nothing new
Wait what?!
I don't remember any RPGs being about the mundane things like, gathering & building stuff, tending animals etc. It was all about adventure.
Dont worry, modern MMOs are much much more closing on that RPG tabletop feel.
For instance - scaled gameworld (encounters) - encounter scales to your level/group size OR your stats scale to encounter level.
because, you know, never ever have i had tabletop experience where we went into encounter, got stomped and DM said "go camp some bosses (or whatever) for 2 months to get gear (stats) THIS high or said that we need x more people or we can go ......ourselves
This (and many more things like this) just tie in to my previous posts.
Oh yes, because you certainly don't camp bosses for 2 months in modern MMORPG's for gear.
I remember VIVIDLY in WoW having to repeat dungeons over and over and over, sometimes 3, 4, even 5 months in a dkp system trying to get the gear I wanted. And it didn't always even drop. That's STILL camping...it's just in shorter doses over longer periods of time IMO. Again...modern MMORPG's still have time sinks. They are just better at disguising them.
Look.....no one here is saying EQ1 was perfect and the greatest MMORPG ever. Just mentioning features FROM EQ1 that would be nice to see incorporated into modern MMORPG's to give them back that RPG feel, an actual community (Due to actually retaining it).
And that was still a relic in WoW, leftover form EQ, MMOs have evolved beyond that.
Even in vanilla only miniscule part of WoW was like that, endgame, and Blizzard admitted they consider it mistake/failure on their part. And guess who was part of developing WoWs vanilla endgame? Yup, thats right. Its history.
It would definitely NOT be nice incorporating any of those anti social mechanics. As i said, even "old school" kickstarters fail.
Then if you are SO convinced, why don't you let us at least have our thread on it and move on...since it obviously doesn't interest you. I'd say why I believe you stay in this thread...but I don't want another warning for pointing it out.
BTW, go through all these pages and count the people who agree with the initial post. Apparently plenty of people like the idea. Sadly though, majority rules, and it's those, which I won't name, who cry out "NO NO!", who are content with the same mouth breather fast action SP/cut scene/ hand holding/instanced driven "MMORPG's".
I can play PS4 or XBox1 for that.
These kinds of comments do not help support anyones position in these discussions....from either side of the argument. Why even make them?
Oh yes, because you certainly don't camp bosses for 2 months in modern MMORPG's for gear.
Unless you awfully SUCK, you definitely don't camp bosses for 2 months.
Sounds like an elitist assumption. How can you suck in a large raid group. Most won't let you even go if you had issues with your class, which many did. It happens even in today's MMORPG's, don't kid yourself.
Wrong, again. Maybe you should play the games you are bashing.
Even in WoW, nobody needs to camp a boss for 2 months before he can have a chance to kill the next one.
And even less in "LFR".
MMOs are most accessible and less "elitist" than ever, and it's a good thing.
If you aren't able to progress with a minimal time investment, then it's not the game's fault... but it's you who are a terrible player.
No, perhaps not...but for the set of gear, certainly you may have to.
They are certainly not less elitist, and yes, they are more accesible than ever. Especially when they are dumbed down so anyone can get by. If they can't get groups because they can't play their class...they can just solo to cap.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar So which age has more depth?
Lots of similarities. Several differences. But more?
Well, considering "RPG" is more then combat, and old MMO's actually had the "RPG" part in the game, I would say, Yes. Some of this, I know is due to players now not caring for "RPG" (aka: Boring) aspects and some may still be in MMOs, but actually playing them is very difficult when the majority of the playerbase poo-poos the activities.
The answer will, of, course be different for different players. Those seeking combat simulators will think today's MMOs have much more depth, in how detailed they are in fighting skills, abilities, and activities. How can one compare EQ's Warriors with their autoattack, kick, bash, intimidate, and passive block and dodge skills having more depth then GW2's combat skill trees? There is no way
However, if a players seeks more the just combat activities, today's MMOs are truly lacking.
PS: WoW, in my head, is an old time MMO (2004) that has morphed into a more combat oriented game over the years, kind of like EQ lately. When you use WoW for examples, I get confused, which is nothing new
Wait what?!
I don't remember any RPGs being about the mundane things like, gathering & building stuff, tending animals etc. It was all about adventure.
Dont worry, modern MMOs are much much more closing on that RPG tabletop feel.
For instance - scaled gameworld (encounters) - encounter scales to your level/group size OR your stats scale to encounter level.
because, you know, never ever have i had tabletop experience where we went into encounter, got stomped and DM said "go camp some bosses (or whatever) for 2 months to get gear (stats) THIS high or said that we need x more people or we can go ......ourselves
This (and many more things like this) just tie in to my previous posts.
Oh yes, because you certainly don't camp bosses for 2 months in modern MMORPG's for gear.
I remember VIVIDLY in WoW having to repeat dungeons over and over and over, sometimes 3, 4, even 5 months in a dkp system trying to get the gear I wanted. And it didn't always even drop. That's STILL camping...it's just in shorter doses over longer periods of time IMO. Again...modern MMORPG's still have time sinks. They are just better at disguising them.
Look.....no one here is saying EQ1 was perfect and the greatest MMORPG ever. Just mentioning features FROM EQ1 that would be nice to see incorporated into modern MMORPG's to give them back that RPG feel, an actual community (Due to actually retaining it).
And that was still a relic in WoW, leftover form EQ, MMOs have evolved beyond that.
Even in vanilla only miniscule part of WoW was like that, endgame, and Blizzard admitted they consider it mistake/failure on their part. And guess who was part of developing WoWs vanilla endgame? Yup, thats right. Its history.
It would definitely NOT be nice incorporating any of those anti social mechanics. As i said, even "old school" kickstarters fail.
Then if you are SO convinced, why don't you let us at least have our thread on it and move on...since it obviously doesn't interest you. I'd say why I believe you stay in this thread...but I don't want another warning for pointing it out.
BTW, go through all these pages and count the people who agree with the initial post. Apparently plenty of people like the idea. Sadly though, majority rules, and it's those, which I won't name, who cry out "NO NO!", who are content with the same mouth breather fast action SP/cut scene/ hand holding/instanced driven "MMORPG's".
I can play PS4 or XBox1 for that.
Dont get angry because of FACTS.
Your best bet is to over to pantheon, donate couple of thousands of $ and hope for the best.
And its not only majority. Its consensus about these things.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar So which age has more depth?
Lots of similarities. Several differences. But more?
Well, considering "RPG" is more then combat, and old MMO's actually had the "RPG" part in the game, I would say, Yes. Some of this, I know is due to players now not caring for "RPG" (aka: Boring) aspects and some may still be in MMOs, but actually playing them is very difficult when the majority of the playerbase poo-poos the activities.
The answer will, of, course be different for different players. Those seeking combat simulators will think today's MMOs have much more depth, in how detailed they are in fighting skills, abilities, and activities. How can one compare EQ's Warriors with their autoattack, kick, bash, intimidate, and passive block and dodge skills having more depth then GW2's combat skill trees? There is no way
However, if a players seeks more the just combat activities, today's MMOs are truly lacking.
PS: WoW, in my head, is an old time MMO (2004) that has morphed into a more combat oriented game over the years, kind of like EQ lately. When you use WoW for examples, I get confused, which is nothing new
Wait what?!
I don't remember any RPGs being about the mundane things like, gathering & building stuff, tending animals etc. It was all about adventure.
Dont worry, modern MMOs are much much more closing on that RPG tabletop feel.
For instance - scaled gameworld (encounters) - encounter scales to your level/group size OR your stats scale to encounter level.
because, you know, never ever have i had tabletop experience where we went into encounter, got stomped and DM said "go camp some bosses (or whatever) for 2 months to get gear (stats) THIS high or said that we need x more people or we can go ......ourselves
This (and many more things like this) just tie in to my previous posts.
Oh yes, because you certainly don't camp bosses for 2 months in modern MMORPG's for gear.
I remember VIVIDLY in WoW having to repeat dungeons over and over and over, sometimes 3, 4, even 5 months in a dkp system trying to get the gear I wanted. And it didn't always even drop. That's STILL camping...it's just in shorter doses over longer periods of time IMO. Again...modern MMORPG's still have time sinks. They are just better at disguising them.
Look.....no one here is saying EQ1 was perfect and the greatest MMORPG ever. Just mentioning features FROM EQ1 that would be nice to see incorporated into modern MMORPG's to give them back that RPG feel, an actual community (Due to actually retaining it).
And that was still a relic in WoW, leftover form EQ, MMOs have evolved beyond that.
Even in vanilla only miniscule part of WoW was like that, endgame, and Blizzard admitted they consider it mistake/failure on their part. And guess who was part of developing WoWs vanilla endgame? Yup, thats right. Its history.
It would definitely NOT be nice incorporating any of those anti social mechanics. As i said, even "old school" kickstarters fail.
Then if you are SO convinced, why don't you let us at least have our thread on it and move on...since it obviously doesn't interest you. I'd say why I believe you stay in this thread...but I don't want another warning for pointing it out.
BTW, go through all these pages and count the people who agree with the initial post. Apparently plenty of people like the idea. Sadly though, majority rules, and it's those, which I won't name, who cry out "NO NO!", who are content with the same mouth breather fast action SP/cut scene/ hand holding/instanced driven "MMORPG's".
I can play PS4 or XBox1 for that.
Dont get angry because of FACTS.
Your best bet is to over to pantheon, donate couple of thousands of $ and hope for the best.
And its not only majority. Its consensus about these things.
Oh..it's facts now lol. You must be in the field then....making these games. CEO of Blizzard?
And no, it is not a consensus. Again, read...many here agree with the original post. That is not a consensus.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar So which age has more depth?
Lots of similarities. Several differences. But more?
Well, considering "RPG" is more then combat, and old MMO's actually had the "RPG" part in the game, I would say, Yes. Some of this, I know is due to players now not caring for "RPG" (aka: Boring) aspects and some may still be in MMOs, but actually playing them is very difficult when the majority of the playerbase poo-poos the activities.
The answer will, of, course be different for different players. Those seeking combat simulators will think today's MMOs have much more depth, in how detailed they are in fighting skills, abilities, and activities. How can one compare EQ's Warriors with their autoattack, kick, bash, intimidate, and passive block and dodge skills having more depth then GW2's combat skill trees? There is no way
However, if a players seeks more the just combat activities, today's MMOs are truly lacking.
PS: WoW, in my head, is an old time MMO (2004) that has morphed into a more combat oriented game over the years, kind of like EQ lately. When you use WoW for examples, I get confused, which is nothing new
Wait what?!
I don't remember any RPGs being about the mundane things like, gathering & building stuff, tending animals etc. It was all about adventure.
Dont worry, modern MMOs are much much more closing on that RPG tabletop feel.
For instance - scaled gameworld (encounters) - encounter scales to your level/group size OR your stats scale to encounter level.
because, you know, never ever have i had tabletop experience where we went into encounter, got stomped and DM said "go camp some bosses (or whatever) for 2 months to get gear (stats) THIS high or said that we need x more people or we can go ......ourselves
This (and many more things like this) just tie in to my previous posts.
Oh yes, because you certainly don't camp bosses for 2 months in modern MMORPG's for gear.
I remember VIVIDLY in WoW having to repeat dungeons over and over and over, sometimes 3, 4, even 5 months in a dkp system trying to get the gear I wanted. And it didn't always even drop. That's STILL camping...it's just in shorter doses over longer periods of time IMO. Again...modern MMORPG's still have time sinks. They are just better at disguising them.
Look.....no one here is saying EQ1 was perfect and the greatest MMORPG ever. Just mentioning features FROM EQ1 that would be nice to see incorporated into modern MMORPG's to give them back that RPG feel, an actual community (Due to actually retaining it).
And that was still a relic in WoW, leftover form EQ, MMOs have evolved beyond that.
Even in vanilla only miniscule part of WoW was like that, endgame, and Blizzard admitted they consider it mistake/failure on their part. And guess who was part of developing WoWs vanilla endgame? Yup, thats right. Its history.
It would definitely NOT be nice incorporating any of those anti social mechanics. As i said, even "old school" kickstarters fail.
Then if you are SO convinced, why don't you let us at least have our thread on it and move on...since it obviously doesn't interest you. I'd say why I believe you stay in this thread...but I don't want another warning for pointing it out.
BTW, go through all these pages and count the people who agree with the initial post. Apparently plenty of people like the idea. Sadly though, majority rules, and it's those, which I won't name, who cry out "NO NO!", who are content with the same mouth breather fast action SP/cut scene/ hand holding/instanced driven "MMORPG's".
I can play PS4 or XBox1 for that.
These kinds of comments do not help support anyones position in these discussions....from either side of the argument. Why even make them?
You are right, and I apologize for that. But I get SICK of the same crowd having to butt into threads they obviously do not like just to bash and derail them CONSTANTLY. It isn't enough they get all the games they want, they have to have all the threads on game sites too it appears and spread their "expert" opinions and...*ahem*...facts.
^ I understand, I have been coming to these forums for many years and as you can see I rarely post. Mostly because I don't want to get dragged into the same old arguments over and over lol. I would also end up making some less than friendly remarks.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar So which age has more depth?
Lots of similarities. Several differences. But more?
Well, considering "RPG" is more then combat, and old MMO's actually had the "RPG" part in the game, I would say, Yes. Some of this, I know is due to players now not caring for "RPG" (aka: Boring) aspects and some may still be in MMOs, but actually playing them is very difficult when the majority of the playerbase poo-poos the activities.
The answer will, of, course be different for different players. Those seeking combat simulators will think today's MMOs have much more depth, in how detailed they are in fighting skills, abilities, and activities. How can one compare EQ's Warriors with their autoattack, kick, bash, intimidate, and passive block and dodge skills having more depth then GW2's combat skill trees? There is no way
However, if a players seeks more the just combat activities, today's MMOs are truly lacking.
PS: WoW, in my head, is an old time MMO (2004) that has morphed into a more combat oriented game over the years, kind of like EQ lately. When you use WoW for examples, I get confused, which is nothing new
Wait what?!
I don't remember any RPGs being about the mundane things like, gathering & building stuff, tending animals etc. It was all about adventure.
Dont worry, modern MMOs are much much more closing on that RPG tabletop feel.
For instance - scaled gameworld (encounters) - encounter scales to your level/group size OR your stats scale to encounter level.
because, you know, never ever have i had tabletop experience where we went into encounter, got stomped and DM said "go camp some bosses (or whatever) for 2 months to get gear (stats) THIS high or said that we need x more people or we can go ......ourselves
This (and many more things like this) just tie in to my previous posts.
Oh yes, because you certainly don't camp bosses for 2 months in modern MMORPG's for gear.
I remember VIVIDLY in WoW having to repeat dungeons over and over and over, sometimes 3, 4, even 5 months in a dkp system trying to get the gear I wanted. And it didn't always even drop. That's STILL camping...it's just in shorter doses over longer periods of time IMO. Again...modern MMORPG's still have time sinks. They are just better at disguising them.
Look.....no one here is saying EQ1 was perfect and the greatest MMORPG ever. Just mentioning features FROM EQ1 that would be nice to see incorporated into modern MMORPG's to give them back that RPG feel, an actual community (Due to actually retaining it).
And that was still a relic in WoW, leftover form EQ, MMOs have evolved beyond that.
Even in vanilla only miniscule part of WoW was like that, endgame, and Blizzard admitted they consider it mistake/failure on their part. And guess who was part of developing WoWs vanilla endgame? Yup, thats right. Its history.
It would definitely NOT be nice incorporating any of those anti social mechanics. As i said, even "old school" kickstarters fail.
Then if you are SO convinced, why don't you let us at least have our thread on it and move on...since it obviously doesn't interest you. I'd say why I believe you stay in this thread...but I don't want another warning for pointing it out.
BTW, go through all these pages and count the people who agree with the initial post. Apparently plenty of people like the idea. Sadly though, majority rules, and it's those, which I won't name, who cry out "NO NO!", who are content with the same mouth breather fast action SP/cut scene/ hand holding/instanced driven "MMORPG's".
I can play PS4 or XBox1 for that.
Dont get angry because of FACTS.
Your best bet is to over to pantheon, donate couple of thousands of $ and hope for the best.
And its not only majority. Its consensus about these things.
Oh..it's facts now lol. You must be in the field then....making these games. CEO of Blizzard?
And no, it is not a consensus. Again, read...many here agree with the original post. That is not a consensus.
Couple of people in a thread on a MMO site opposed to 10s of millions.
yes, its a consensus lol
im in a field of "not hung up on nostalgia and not wearing rosey glasses" and wanting MMOs to finally converge to RPG and, if you wish, that tabletop feel and be social. progress is slow but steady. technology aint there yet, but thats not the exuse to not make the best of what you do have available and to stop constantly repeatimg mistakes that "old school" MMOs introduced to a genre.
I already said, i dont like WoW and never really did.
I disagree on the equipment. I always preferred having simple items in game. Starting with a rusty sword and moving on to a Fine Steel sword or something of that nature that gave a small upgrade was much more satisfying because it was both hard to get and a lot nicer since it was an overdone fancy art display. It was just as simple smooth sword like you would see in the middle ages. The same with armor. It was just simple cloth, leather, chain, or plate that you would have seen. There are no fancy designs because or stats because none are needed. They look far more alluring in a more natural design IMO. There is nothing wrong with starting out poor in the world and working your way up. It definitely makes you feel stronger as you progress.
I don't agree with the time sinks in EQ. I believe people became obsessed with becoming more powerful, but that was not the intent. The intent was for you to jump in, play a bit, and jump out. I can't say this with any certainty, but I feel you were free to do what you wanted to do. You could have gone in and killed a few rats, sold the loot, and logged out. You could have slowly progressed, explored, or whatever you wanted to do. What you really mean is you couldn't compete to be the best in the game power and equipment wise without putting a lot of time into the game. It's too bad if all you saw was time sinks in EQ. You obviously missed out on the best part of the game which was to interact with other people regardless of weather or not you were soloing, grouping, or whatever else in game.
In terms of content there was plenty. Each race had their own starting area. Each class even had their own area/faction. Each zone/dungeon was unique. I again argue that quests are not necessarily content (though EQ had quests and often they were far more complex). Following a GPS around is not content. Everything else was there Solo, Group, PvP (dualing), Group, and eventually even raid (unfortunately IMO even though it was fun to watch), but it wasn't segregated into separate mini games (which was good because it allowed more played interaction. I think most players don't get the social interaction aspect of the game. If you play only for loot and leveling you probably will never understand. Even some older players don't seem to get it. They just see time sink and can't see anything else. It's just like I start to play a modern MMO and all I see is easy quests, almost impossible to die, repetitive PvP, generic classes, real money only items, raid, and group. This is not a game to me, but some kind of bastardized thing where everything is broken up into small mini games. Some are easy and some or not, but the social aspect of the game is gutted out because of the splitting and focus on combat (weather easy solo, group moderate, or raid semi hard). This splitting makes everything feel artificial, the ease and quickness of doing things makes it feel hallow, and the basic lack of social interaction outside of group and raid content makes the worlds feel empty.
I wasn't commenting on EQ's timesinks, as I didn't play EQ. But I played maybe 10 other early MMORPGs and excessive timesinks were a general truth of the MMORPG industry at that time.
Meanwhile around the same time (1999) there were all these other genres (FPS, RTS, etc) that were providing more fun in less time. So MMORPGs were flat-out bad games by comparison. I'm an oldschool gamer. We demand gameplay, and don't waste our time.
Content quantity wasn't really going to get me past the game's flaws I think. To this day I'm still a bit shocked that the 20 real life people I talked to (over a period of the game's first 2-3 years) managed to come up with 20 unique ways it was a bad experience. Normally complaints bunch up with 1-2 common topics, but with EQ it was this staggering list of ways the game would waste my time and fail to deliver fun. So I avoided it.
Your GPS comment is really weird. The point of the GPS isn't to be content. It's to get you to content. Quickly. Because your time is valuable and you aren't interested in pissing it away wandering the wilderness. Games have one job (fun) and if this game isn't willing to deliver an enjoyable experience in a timely manner then there are others which will.
In terms of time sinks who cared about them anyway? I generally didn't and was having a blast throughout most of my time there. One could argue that without the supposed time sinks I wouldn't have had as much fun.
One thing you keep repeating is that x content is fun and you need to get there quickly. The question is how is x content fun? I've said this over and over again, but the content consists of clicking on a ! and following a GPS around to zones where you are setup to easily win the encounter. Then you follow the GPS back to the NPC or even had the reward given immediately. Most of this is far more static and less engaging then simple going around and exploring/killing random mobs.
The human race has always had a large desire to explore and find new things. Imagine if people just stayed in the same place and followed instructions? We would haven accomplished a whole lot and no one would have had any adventures which are the basis for many fantasy games. To me it is not weird because GPS basically takes a key part of the adventure away. That is the x factor of not knowing where you are going or what to expect. Even in old RPGs there was traveling around x forest (gameboard) and having random encounters/events like weather related, or a group of very difficult mobs that might kill you popping up. Usually there were different paths to travel around the game board. You weren't shown exactly where to go.
I don't agree with the time sinks in EQ. I believe people became obsessed with becoming more powerful, but that was not the intent. The intent was for you to jump in, play a bit, and jump out. I can't say this with any certainty, but I feel you were free to do what you wanted to do. You could have gone in and killed a few rats, sold the loot, and logged out. You could have slowly progressed, explored, or whatever you wanted to do. What you really mean is you couldn't compete to be the best in the game power and equipment wise without putting a lot of time into the game. It's too bad if all you saw was time sinks in EQ. You obviously missed out on the best part of the game which was to interact with other people regardless of weather or not you were soloing, grouping, or whatever else in game.
In terms of content there was plenty. Each race had their own starting area. Each class even had their own area/faction. Each zone/dungeon was unique. I again argue that quests are not necessarily content (though EQ had quests and often they were far more complex). Following a GPS around is not content. Everything else was there Solo, Group, PvP (dualing), Group, and eventually even raid (unfortunately IMO even though it was fun to watch), but it wasn't segregated into separate mini games (which was good because it allowed more played interaction. I think most players don't get the social interaction aspect of the game. If you play only for loot and leveling you probably will never understand. Even some older players don't seem to get it. They just see time sink and can't see anything else. It's just like I start to play a modern MMO and all I see is easy quests, almost impossible to die, repetitive PvP, generic classes, real money only items, raid, and group. This is not a game to me, but some kind of bastardized thing where everything is broken up into small mini games. Some are easy and some or not, but the social aspect of the game is gutted out because of the splitting and focus on combat (weather easy solo, group moderate, or raid semi hard). This splitting makes everything feel artificial, the ease and quickness of doing things makes it feel hallow, and the basic lack of social interaction outside of group and raid content makes the worlds feel empty.
The highlighted bit was the selling point of WoW when it launched. You can play for a bit and still get something done. This selling point was promoted a lot because prior MMOs generally required you to devote hours at a tme. If you can't solo in EQ (e.g. you didn't pick one of the easy mode classes, e.g. druids).then you had to rely on a group. What that meant is that if you wanted to play for 30 minutes by the time you find a group you would have to log off.
What you describe of content, was also in WoW. WoW had an insane amount of content. Its zones and dungeos were very unique and distinct. There were multiple zones you could level in at any level. Tons of starting zones. Two distinct factions which even had their own languages.
WoW had thousands of quests, probably more so than all the other MMO prior to it combined. Quests didn't have a GPS tracker. Sorry if you missed that. A lot of people kept asking for help as thy couldn't figure out how to complete a quest or where they needed to go as the only way to figure it out was to read the quest.
WoW had tons of solo content, tons of group content (group quests, elites in the worlds, rares, dungeons), PvP (open world pvp, city raids, later on battlegrounds, dueling), Raids. Raids required loads of player interaction.
WoW classes were amazingly diverse and unique. They had tons of abilities and different specliasations. Whereas EQ ha dclasses which mostly relied on autoattack only (melee classes).
Ultimately I think the problem is that very few people have actually played the two games to a sufficient extent to pass judgement on it. On the one hand you have people like me who couldn't get into EQ and didn't play it for long but loved WoW and played it more thn all other MMOs combined. On the other hand yo uhave people who played EQ loved it but tried WoW and didn't enjoy it so they didn't play it for long.
Then you have people using different reference points to make the comparison. E.g. classic EQ, random point in the life of EQ when said person deeme the game to have changed dramatically and current EQ. Same for WoW - classic WoW, random point of big change, current WoW. And then they compare the two on a random selection of the above. E.g. comparing classic EQ to current WoW, 2004 EQ to 2004 WoW etc.
It also doesn't help that lots of namecalling and insults are going around. EQ fans will call Wow fans people who enjoy cheap, shallow games, console kiddies, immature, braindead and stupid players, sheep etc. EQ fans would be called in turn no lifers, nerds, mindless drones for enjoying grinding etc.
I already know all of your points as I've played both games in their vanilla form.
I played a Ranger, Druid, Necro, and Bard in EQ.
In WoW I played a Paladin mostly though I tried all the classes and I played it in Vanilla to level 60.
EQ was simple a lot harder all around in terms of grouping if that's what you wanted. I played the supposed easy mode classes which you mentioned and did solo a lot, but the soloing was still far more difficult then my experiences in Vanilla WoW for many different reasons I've mentioned before.
I know WoW didn't have a GPS originally and mentioned it as a strong point of the game. The problem is as you mentioned that people couldn't follow simple quest instructions. If people could do that the GPS may never have been implemented and a key component of adventuring would still be alive which is exploration and random encounters with both wandering mobs and other players.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar So which age has more depth?
Lots of similarities. Several differences. But more?
Well, considering "RPG" is more then combat, and old MMO's actually had the "RPG" part in the game, I would say, Yes. Some of this, I know is due to players now not caring for "RPG" (aka: Boring) aspects and some may still be in MMOs, but actually playing them is very difficult when the majority of the playerbase poo-poos the activities.
The answer will, of, course be different for different players. Those seeking combat simulators will think today's MMOs have much more depth, in how detailed they are in fighting skills, abilities, and activities. How can one compare EQ's Warriors with their autoattack, kick, bash, intimidate, and passive block and dodge skills having more depth then GW2's combat skill trees? There is no way
However, if a players seeks more the just combat activities, today's MMOs are truly lacking.
PS: WoW, in my head, is an old time MMO (2004) that has morphed into a more combat oriented game over the years, kind of like EQ lately. When you use WoW for examples, I get confused, which is nothing new
Wait what?!
I don't remember any RPGs being about the mundane things like, gathering & building stuff, tending animals etc. It was all about adventure.
Dont worry, modern MMOs are much much more closing on that RPG tabletop feel.
For instance - scaled gameworld (encounters) - encounter scales to your level/group size OR your stats scale to encounter level.
because, you know, never ever have i had tabletop experience where we went into encounter, got stomped and DM said "go camp some bosses (or whatever) for 2 months to get gear (stats) THIS high or said that we need x more people or we can go ......ourselves
This (and many more things like this) just tie in to my previous posts.
Oh yes, because you certainly don't camp bosses for 2 months in modern MMORPG's for gear.
I remember VIVIDLY in WoW having to repeat dungeons over and over and over, sometimes 3, 4, even 5 months in a dkp system trying to get the gear I wanted. And it didn't always even drop. That's STILL camping...it's just in shorter doses over longer periods of time IMO. Again...modern MMORPG's still have time sinks. They are just better at disguising them.
Look.....no one here is saying EQ1 was perfect and the greatest MMORPG ever. Just mentioning features FROM EQ1 that would be nice to see incorporated into modern MMORPG's to give them back that RPG feel, an actual community (Due to actually retaining it).
And that was still a relic in WoW, leftover form EQ, MMOs have evolved beyond that.
Even in vanilla only miniscule part of WoW was like that, endgame, and Blizzard admitted they consider it mistake/failure on their part. And guess who was part of developing WoWs vanilla endgame? Yup, thats right. Its history.
It would definitely NOT be nice incorporating any of those anti social mechanics. As i said, even "old school" kickstarters fail.
Then if you are SO convinced, why don't you let us at least have our thread on it and move on...since it obviously doesn't interest you. I'd say why I believe you stay in this thread...but I don't want another warning for pointing it out.
BTW, go through all these pages and count the people who agree with the initial post. Apparently plenty of people like the idea. Sadly though, majority rules, and it's those, which I won't name, who cry out "NO NO!", who are content with the same mouth breather fast action SP/cut scene/ hand holding/instanced driven "MMORPG's".
I can play PS4 or XBox1 for that.
Dont get angry because of FACTS.
Your best bet is to over to pantheon, donate couple of thousands of $ and hope for the best.
And its not only majority. Its consensus about these things.
Oh..it's facts now lol. You must be in the field then....making these games. CEO of Blizzard?
And no, it is not a consensus. Again, read...many here agree with the original post. That is not a consensus.
Couple of people in a thread on a MMO site opposed to 10s of millions.
yes, its a consensus lol
im in a field of "not hung up on nostalgia and not wearing rosey glasses" and wanting MMOs to finally converge to RPG and, if you wish, that tabletop feel and be social. progress is slow but steady. technology aint there yet, but thats not the exuse to not make the best of what you do have available and to stop constantly repeatimg mistakes that "old school" MMOs introduced to a genre.
I already said, i dont like WoW and never really did.
I guess I have to be more specific or assumptions fly. No, not just this site...many other sites I've been on, and even in several other MMORPG's I've played well since EQ I have read or heard others pining for many of the elements mentioned in the original post. So again, not consensus.
"not hung up on nostalgia and not wearing rosey glasses" This is a weak and tired usage, be more creative. It's no better than what I said and apologized for a few posts ago.
I'm not sure btw why you felt the need to tell me you don't like WoW. Ok.....but I don't recall mentioning you liking it either.
Also, ALL of these current MMORPG's constantly keep repeating the same mistakes. Let's not make it out to be only EQ that was flawed.
Then if you are SO convinced, why don't you let us at least have our thread on it and move on...since it obviously doesn't interest you. I'd say why I believe you stay in this thread...but I don't want another warning for pointing it out.
BTW, go through all these pages and count the people who agree with the initial post. Apparently plenty of people like the idea. Sadly though, majority rules, and it's those, which I won't name, who cry out "NO NO!", who are content with the same mouth breather fast action SP/cut scene/ hand holding/instanced driven "MMORPG's".
I can play PS4 or XBox1 for that.
So what if people like those games? There's nothing more asinine IMO than labeling people "mouth breathers" due to the video-games they like. Especially when you label "the many" like that because one poster is giving you a hard time.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Then if you are SO convinced, why don't you let us at least have our thread on it and move on...since it obviously doesn't interest you. I'd say why I believe you stay in this thread...but I don't want another warning for pointing it out.
BTW, go through all these pages and count the people who agree with the initial post. Apparently plenty of people like the idea. Sadly though, majority rules, and it's those, which I won't name, who cry out "NO NO!", who are content with the same mouth breather fast action SP/cut scene/ hand holding/instanced driven "MMORPG's".
I can play PS4 or XBox1 for that.
So what if people like those games? There's nothing more asinine IMO than labeling people "mouth breathers" due to the video-games they like. Especially when you label "the many" like that because one poster is giving you a hard time.
Oh it's by far not one. And if you read further...I've already apologized for my remarks. It's was a twitch reaction to a non-stop barrage of haters that can't leave a thread alone they don't care for.
There are tons of threads here I could care less for, nor agree with...but I don't make a habit of entering them and bashing away relentlessly. IDK why others find it so difficult to do the same.
Then if you are SO convinced, why don't you let us at least have our thread on it and move on...since it obviously doesn't interest you. I'd say why I believe you stay in this thread...but I don't want another warning for pointing it out.
BTW, go through all these pages and count the people who agree with the initial post. Apparently plenty of people like the idea. Sadly though, majority rules, and it's those, which I won't name, who cry out "NO NO!", who are content with the same mouth breather fast action SP/cut scene/ hand holding/instanced driven "MMORPG's".
I can play PS4 or XBox1 for that.
So what if people like those games? There's nothing more asinine IMO than labeling people "mouth breathers" due to the video-games they like. Especially when you label "the many" like that because one poster is giving you a hard time.
Oh it's by far not one. And if you read further...I've already apologized for my remarks. It's was a twitch reaction to a non-stop barrage of haters that can't leave a thread alone they don't care for.
There are tons of threads here I could care less for, nor agree with...but I don't make a habit of entering them and bashing away relentlessly. IDK why others find it so difficult to do the same.
Fair enough, I did miss the apology, best thing to do is ignore or block them, they'll go away. Stooping to their level isn't going to help (which you did see obviously hence the apology). It just expands the fight.
AS for your OP screw EQ, I want SWG features :P
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Then if you are SO convinced, why don't you let us at least have our thread on it and move on...since it obviously doesn't interest you. I'd say why I believe you stay in this thread...but I don't want another warning for pointing it out.
BTW, go through all these pages and count the people who agree with the initial post. Apparently plenty of people like the idea. Sadly though, majority rules, and it's those, which I won't name, who cry out "NO NO!", who are content with the same mouth breather fast action SP/cut scene/ hand holding/instanced driven "MMORPG's".
I can play PS4 or XBox1 for that.
So what if people like those games? There's nothing more asinine IMO than labeling people "mouth breathers" due to the video-games they like. Especially when you label "the many" like that because one poster is giving you a hard time.
Oh it's by far not one. And if you read further...I've already apologized for my remarks. It's was a twitch reaction to a non-stop barrage of haters that can't leave a thread alone they don't care for.
There are tons of threads here I could care less for, nor agree with...but I don't make a habit of entering them and bashing away relentlessly. IDK why others find it so difficult to do the same.
Fair enough, I did miss the apology, best thing to do is ignore or block them, they'll go away. Stooping to their level isn't going to help (which you did see obviously hence the apology). It just expands the fight.
AS for your OP screw EQ, I want SWG features :P
I am a huge SW's fan, and I got to see the beta a bit when a friend of mine got into it. Wasn't impressed at the time...but I was younger too and it was beta. But wish I would have given it more of a look.
I've heard many good things about it and many of it's fans pining for many of it's features same as EQ fans do. But also heard it's makers fudged it up good.
In terms of time sinks who cared about them anyway? I generally didn't and was having a blast throughout most of my time there. One could argue that without the supposed time sinks I wouldn't have had as much fun.
One thing you keep repeating is that x content is fun and you need to get there quickly. The question is how is x content fun? I've said this over and over again, but the content consists of clicking on a ! and following a GPS around to zones where you are setup to easily win the encounter. Then you follow the GPS back to the NPC or even had the reward given immediately. Most of this is far more static and less engaging then simple going around and exploring/killing random mobs.
The human race has always had a large desire to explore and find new things. Imagine if people just stayed in the same place and followed instructions? We would haven accomplished a whole lot and no one would have had any adventures which are the basis for many fantasy games. To me it is not weird because GPS basically takes a key part of the adventure away. That is the x factor of not knowing where you are going or what to expect. Even in old RPGs there was traveling around x forest (gameboard) and having random encounters/events like weather related, or a group of very difficult mobs that might kill you popping up. Usually there were different paths to travel around the game board. You weren't shown exactly where to go.
Nearly everyone cares about timesinks. Timesinks dilute gameplay, and gameplay is the purpose of games!
The most common form of fun is gameplay; the act of solving problems, of mastering patterns (Koster, 2003). "Timesinks" are thus things which offer little to no decisions (travel, recovery-downtime, etc).
The act of getting a quest and finding where it's located has never offered interesting gameplay (certainly not in those ~10 other early MMORPGs I played) That's why it's kept deliberately short and simple. It can't be much shorter than it is though, since you want to establish the setting and the sense of travel (like a brief travel montage in a movie which ends with an establishing shot of the new environment.)
Once you're there that's when the gameplay happens, since most of the game design tends to go into making combat interesting (and ideally quests always send you against new types of mobs, so that optimizing your rotation against them is varied in some way.)
All of which adds up to a tremendously better experience than what I saw in those other ~10 games, where you mostly just sat and killed the same mob type for hours on end. So those early games definitely were far far worse about "staying in the same place". As for "following instructions", getting quests is mostly the player saying "serve me up more content" so there's a bit of a "who's instructing who?" question there.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I used to form dungeon groups where we would keep moving and kill different bosses all the time. Of course some groups would stand in one spot and pull to it for hours, so I know what you mean. I still prefer the harsher death penalties, no instancing and limited porting of early EQ over today's games for the reasons already outlined in this thread. I wouldn't want an exact recreation of early EQ, just with some of the features. This game would be more focused on creating a virtual world over pure combat emphasis. It would not be for everyone.
In terms of time sinks who cared about them anyway? I generally didn't and was having a blast throughout most of my time there. One could argue that without the supposed time sinks I wouldn't have had as much fun.
One thing you keep repeating is that x content is fun and you need to get there quickly. The question is how is x content fun? I've said this over and over again, but the content consists of clicking on a ! and following a GPS around to zones where you are setup to easily win the encounter. Then you follow the GPS back to the NPC or even had the reward given immediately. Most of this is far more static and less engaging then simple going around and exploring/killing random mobs.
The human race has always had a large desire to explore and find new things. Imagine if people just stayed in the same place and followed instructions? We would haven accomplished a whole lot and no one would have had any adventures which are the basis for many fantasy games. To me it is not weird because GPS basically takes a key part of the adventure away. That is the x factor of not knowing where you are going or what to expect. Even in old RPGs there was traveling around x forest (gameboard) and having random encounters/events like weather related, or a group of very difficult mobs that might kill you popping up. Usually there were different paths to travel around the game board. You weren't shown exactly where to go.
Nearly everyone cares about timesinks. Timesinks dilute gameplay, and gameplay is the purpose of games!
The most common form of fun is gameplay; the act of solving problems, of mastering patterns (Koster, 2003). "Timesinks" are thus things which offer little to no decisions (travel, recovery-downtime, etc).
The act of getting a quest and finding where it's located has never offered interesting gameplay (certainly not in those ~10 other early MMORPGs I played) That's why it's kept deliberately short and simple. It can't be much shorter than it is though, since you want to establish the setting and the sense of travel (like a brief travel montage in a movie which ends with an establishing shot of the new environment.)
Once you're there that's when the gameplay happens, since most of the game design tends to go into making combat interesting (and ideally quests always send you against new types of mobs, so that optimizing your rotation against them is varied in some way.)
All of which adds up to a tremendously better experience than what I saw in those other ~10 games, where you mostly just sat and killed the same mob type for hours on end. So those early games definitely were far far worse about "staying in the same place". As for "following instructions", getting quests is mostly the player saying "serve me up more content" so there's a bit of a "who's instructing who?" question there.
Travel is not a time sink. It is part of an adventure. You don't seem to understand that. Exploring is fun. As I mentioned before that is part of why people explored the world and expanded. If travel was thought of as a time sink then no one would travel anywhere. Everyone would just sit in the same place. Regardless of this I don't see how time is so precious to so many they can't just enjoy the experience. It's really amazing that anyone is enjoying games if they can't relax enough to be happy without getting their loot or level fix for the day. As I've mentioned at nauseam I consider the current day mechanics the true time sink. There are no complex puzzles in MMOs that you mention. The dungeons in EQ were more complex then what you see in MMOs today. The only thing you really do is combat and that's it. To me that is a time sink. You jump in, don't really have a meaningful fun experience in any way and you jump out. You might as well just not play at all. I know you are just going to repeat how everything is just a time sink and how you need to be lead right to the supposed fun. This is in essence a futile argument that will never end as you will just repeat the same thing and ignore what I said. Instead I'll just post a few definitions of words for you.
Adventure
engage in hazardous and exciting activity, especially the exploration of unknown territory.
So basically most of these MMOs that have a GPS can not claim to have any adventures or be adventure games because there is no exploration.
Exploration
The act of traveling through in or through or through an unfamiliar are in order to learn about it.
In terms of time sinks who cared about them anyway? I generally didn't and was having a blast throughout most of my time there. One could argue that without the supposed time sinks I wouldn't have had as much fun.
One thing you keep repeating is that x content is fun and you need to get there quickly. The question is how is x content fun? I've said this over and over again, but the content consists of clicking on a ! and following a GPS around to zones where you are setup to easily win the encounter. Then you follow the GPS back to the NPC or even had the reward given immediately. Most of this is far more static and less engaging then simple going around and exploring/killing random mobs.
The human race has always had a large desire to explore and find new things. Imagine if people just stayed in the same place and followed instructions? We would haven accomplished a whole lot and no one would have had any adventures which are the basis for many fantasy games. To me it is not weird because GPS basically takes a key part of the adventure away. That is the x factor of not knowing where you are going or what to expect. Even in old RPGs there was traveling around x forest (gameboard) and having random encounters/events like weather related, or a group of very difficult mobs that might kill you popping up. Usually there were different paths to travel around the game board. You weren't shown exactly where to go.
Nearly everyone cares about timesinks. Timesinks dilute gameplay, and gameplay is the purpose of games!
The most common form of fun is gameplay; the act of solving problems, of mastering patterns (Koster, 2003). "Timesinks" are thus things which offer little to no decisions (travel, recovery-downtime, etc).
The act of getting a quest and finding where it's located has never offered interesting gameplay (certainly not in those ~10 other early MMORPGs I played) That's why it's kept deliberately short and simple. It can't be much shorter than it is though, since you want to establish the setting and the sense of travel (like a brief travel montage in a movie which ends with an establishing shot of the new environment.)
Once you're there that's when the gameplay happens, since most of the game design tends to go into making combat interesting (and ideally quests always send you against new types of mobs, so that optimizing your rotation against them is varied in some way.)
All of which adds up to a tremendously better experience than what I saw in those other ~10 games, where you mostly just sat and killed the same mob type for hours on end. So those early games definitely were far far worse about "staying in the same place". As for "following instructions", getting quests is mostly the player saying "serve me up more content" so there's a bit of a "who's instructing who?" question there.
Travel is not a time sink. It is part of an adventure. You don't seem to understand that. Exploring is fun. As I mentioned before that is part of why people explored the world and expanded. If travel was thought of as a time sink then no one would travel anywhere. Everyone would just sit in the same place. Regardless of this I don't see how time is so precious to so many they can't just enjoy the experience. It's really amazing that anyone is enjoying games if they can't relax enough to be happy without getting their loot or level fix for the day. As I've mentioned at nauseam I consider the current day mechanics the true time sink. There are no complex puzzles in MMOs that you mention. The dungeons in EQ were more complex then what you see in MMOs today. The only thing you really do is combat and that's it. To me that is a time sink. You jump in, don't really have a meaningful fun experience in any way and you jump out. You might as well just not play at all. I know you are just going to repeat how everything is just a time sink and how you need to be lead right to the supposed fun. This is in essence a futile argument that will never end as you will just repeat the same thing and ignore what I said. Instead I'll just post a few definitions of words for you.
Adventure
engage in hazardous and exciting activity, especially the exploration of unknown territory.
So basically most of these MMOs that have a GPS can not claim to have any adventures or be adventure games because there is no exploration.
Exploration
The act of traveling through in or through or through an unfamiliar are in order to learn about it.
Complexity of dungeons/raids was never an issue, not even in today's MMOs. WoW's raids are as hard as they were and probably involve more complex interactions and scripts than before. Go try a mythic raid if you don't believe me.
I agree with you that travel is important as you explore the world this way. Excessive travel may become a bit too much but then again everyone has different levels of tolerance towards this.
Once upon a time we had to spent 1 hour to gather a dungeon party and spent another 1 hour travelling to said dungeon. So you would often spend like 90-100 min before you even get to the dungeon. Back then I found it ok but I certainly wouldn't be happy today. If I had to spent 90 min getting a party going (Vanilla/TBC WoW) then spend another 3-5 hours in the dungeon, then sadly I would probably have to leave by the time the dungeon was about to start. So then unless I have like 3-4 hours of spare time to play, I wouldn't bother.
What you do say about the "GPS" thing is wrong though. MMOs that have a GPS cannot claim to hve any adventures or have any exploration. Now when you say things like that you are bound to flame bait and troll people to reply to you. So you are telling me that all the exploration I did in WoW and ESO was nonexistant?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
In terms of time sinks who cared about them anyway? I generally didn't and was having a blast throughout most of my time there. One could argue that without the supposed time sinks I wouldn't have had as much fun.
One thing you keep repeating is that x content is fun and you need to get there quickly. The question is how is x content fun? I've said this over and over again, but the content consists of clicking on a ! and following a GPS around to zones where you are setup to easily win the encounter. Then you follow the GPS back to the NPC or even had the reward given immediately. Most of this is far more static and less engaging then simple going around and exploring/killing random mobs.
The human race has always had a large desire to explore and find new things. Imagine if people just stayed in the same place and followed instructions? We would haven accomplished a whole lot and no one would have had any adventures which are the basis for many fantasy games. To me it is not weird because GPS basically takes a key part of the adventure away. That is the x factor of not knowing where you are going or what to expect. Even in old RPGs there was traveling around x forest (gameboard) and having random encounters/events like weather related, or a group of very difficult mobs that might kill you popping up. Usually there were different paths to travel around the game board. You weren't shown exactly where to go.
Nearly everyone cares about timesinks. Timesinks dilute gameplay, and gameplay is the purpose of games!
The most common form of fun is gameplay; the act of solving problems, of mastering patterns (Koster, 2003). "Timesinks" are thus things which offer little to no decisions (travel, recovery-downtime, etc).
The act of getting a quest and finding where it's located has never offered interesting gameplay (certainly not in those ~10 other early MMORPGs I played) That's why it's kept deliberately short and simple. It can't be much shorter than it is though, since you want to establish the setting and the sense of travel (like a brief travel montage in a movie which ends with an establishing shot of the new environment.)
Once you're there that's when the gameplay happens, since most of the game design tends to go into making combat interesting (and ideally quests always send you against new types of mobs, so that optimizing your rotation against them is varied in some way.)
All of which adds up to a tremendously better experience than what I saw in those other ~10 games, where you mostly just sat and killed the same mob type for hours on end. So those early games definitely were far far worse about "staying in the same place". As for "following instructions", getting quests is mostly the player saying "serve me up more content" so there's a bit of a "who's instructing who?" question there.
Travel is not a time sink. It is part of an adventure. You don't seem to understand that. Exploring is fun. As I mentioned before that is part of why people explored the world and expanded. If travel was thought of as a time sink then no one would travel anywhere. Everyone would just sit in the same place. Regardless of this I don't see how time is so precious to so many they can't just enjoy the experience. It's really amazing that anyone is enjoying games if they can't relax enough to be happy without getting their loot or level fix for the day. As I've mentioned at nauseam I consider the current day mechanics the true time sink. There are no complex puzzles in MMOs that you mention. The dungeons in EQ were more complex then what you see in MMOs today. The only thing you really do is combat and that's it. To me that is a time sink. You jump in, don't really have a meaningful fun experience in any way and you jump out. You might as well just not play at all. I know you are just going to repeat how everything is just a time sink and how you need to be lead right to the supposed fun. This is in essence a futile argument that will never end as you will just repeat the same thing and ignore what I said. Instead I'll just post a few definitions of words for you.
Adventure
engage in hazardous and exciting activity, especially the exploration of unknown territory.
So basically most of these MMOs that have a GPS can not claim to have any adventures or be adventure games because there is no exploration.
Exploration
The act of traveling through in or through or through an unfamiliar are in order to learn about it.
Complexity of dungeons/raids was never an issue, not even in today's MMOs. WoW's raids are as hard as they were and probably involve more complex interactions and scripts than before. Go try a mythic raid if you don't believe me.
I agree with you that travel is important as you explore the world this way. Excessive travel may become a bit too much but then again everyone has different levels of tolerance towards this.
Once upon a time we had to spent 1 hour to gather a dungeon party and spent another 1 hour travelling to said dungeon. So you would often spend like 90-100 min before you even get to the dungeon. Back then I found it ok but I certainly wouldn't be happy today. If I had to spent 90 min getting a party going (Vanilla/TBC WoW) then spend another 3-5 hours in the dungeon, then sadly I would probably have to leave by the time the dungeon was about to start. So then unless I have like 3-4 hours of spare time to play, I wouldn't bother.
What you do say about the "GPS" thing is wrong though. MMOs that have a GPS cannot claim to hve any adventures or have any exploration. Now when you say things like that you are bound to flame bait and troll people to reply to you. So you are telling me that all the exploration I did in WoW and ESO was nonexistant?
That's a good point. To much time spend on anything is not a good thing as it detracts from real life. I think exploration is important, but perhaps the game mechanics for it need to be tweaked in a such a way that it doesn't take so much time to explore. I just don't like the GPS and ! marks.
That's a good point. To much time spend on anything is not a good thing as it detracts from real life. I think exploration is important, but perhaps the game mechanics for it need to be tweaked in a such a way that it doesn't take so much time to explore. I just don't like the GPS and ! marks.
I suppose the ability to toggle them off is not an option?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
Sounds like an elitist assumption. How can you suck in a large raid group. Most won't let you even go if you had issues with your class, which many did. It happens even in today's MMORPG's, don't kid yourself.
Then if you are SO convinced, why don't you let us at least have our thread on it and move on...since it obviously doesn't interest you. I'd say why I believe you stay in this thread...but I don't want another warning for pointing it out.
BTW, go through all these pages and count the people who agree with the initial post. Apparently plenty of people like the idea. Sadly though, majority rules, and it's those, which I won't name, who cry out "NO NO!", who are content with the same mouth breather fast action SP/cut scene/ hand holding/instanced driven "MMORPG's".
I can play PS4 or XBox1 for that.
I could not get Everquest to work on my PC for the longest time so I joined late. I was very happy to finally be part of the big family when I got it to work. I never did get Vanguard to work on my PC. But for EQ the guild house rocked. And guildies kept making me all this great armor. But they were real shy and I couldn't get them to RP. They would do anything for me but talk to me so I got bored and left. Just doing quests wasn't enough and I didn't feel like guild hopping not after they'd been so nice to me.
Guild Wars 2 is huge like EQ with the never ending exploration and quests. Never played GW1, sorry to hear all those who think it was so much better than GW2.
My starter game was FFXI. Another very large world. FFXIV fixed some things that were wrong with FFXI (*cough* manthras *cough*) but it left out a few goodies that FFXI had (spread out teleports). Instead of being bitter most of the community has agreed that they are just different games. To bad SE is to proud to make FFXI a f2p.
I have mixed feelings about working hard in an mmo. You have to work way to hard in real life to get anything done. Games are for fun. Supposedly a break from labor. You should not have to "work" in games. Games are for "play." But if you make shiz way to easy it takes away the feeling of accomplishment - a fun aspect. The best answer so far is a variety of vanity items of equal visual appeal and value but obtained in different ways; some easy to get, some hard.
It's what set them apart from console games. Now, they ARE console games.
Sorry you got to it late, when did you star playing? I started in 99' and played on AOL dial-up lol.
These kinds of comments do not help support anyones position in these discussions....from either side of the argument. Why even make them?
No signature, I don't have a pen
No, perhaps not...but for the set of gear, certainly you may have to.
They are certainly not less elitist, and yes, they are more accesible than ever. Especially when they are dumbed down so anyone can get by. If they can't get groups because they can't play their class...they can just solo to cap.
Dont get angry because of FACTS.
Your best bet is to over to pantheon, donate couple of thousands of $ and hope for the best.
And its not only majority. Its consensus about these things.
Oh..it's facts now lol. You must be in the field then....making these games. CEO of Blizzard?
And no, it is not a consensus. Again, read...many here agree with the original post. That is not a consensus.
You are right, and I apologize for that. But I get SICK of the same crowd having to butt into threads they obviously do not like just to bash and derail them CONSTANTLY. It isn't enough they get all the games they want, they have to have all the threads on game sites too it appears and spread their "expert" opinions and...*ahem*...facts.
No signature, I don't have a pen
Couple of people in a thread on a MMO site opposed to 10s of millions.
yes, its a consensus lol
im in a field of "not hung up on nostalgia and not wearing rosey glasses" and wanting MMOs to finally converge to RPG and, if you wish, that tabletop feel and be social. progress is slow but steady. technology aint there yet, but thats not the exuse to not make the best of what you do have available and to stop constantly repeatimg mistakes that "old school" MMOs introduced to a genre.
I already said, i dont like WoW and never really did.
In terms of time sinks who cared about them anyway? I generally didn't and was having a blast throughout most of my time there. One could argue that without the supposed time sinks I wouldn't have had as much fun.
One thing you keep repeating is that x content is fun and you need to get there quickly. The question is how is x content fun? I've said this over and over again, but the content consists of clicking on a ! and following a GPS around to zones where you are setup to easily win the encounter. Then you follow the GPS back to the NPC or even had the reward given immediately. Most of this is far more static and less engaging then simple going around and exploring/killing random mobs.
The human race has always had a large desire to explore and find new things. Imagine if people just stayed in the same place and followed instructions? We would haven accomplished a whole lot and no one would have had any adventures which are the basis for many fantasy games. To me it is not weird because GPS basically takes a key part of the adventure away. That is the x factor of not knowing where you are going or what to expect. Even in old RPGs there was traveling around x forest (gameboard) and having random encounters/events like weather related, or a group of very difficult mobs that might kill you popping up. Usually there were different paths to travel around the game board. You weren't shown exactly where to go.
I already know all of your points as I've played both games in their vanilla form.
I played a Ranger, Druid, Necro, and Bard in EQ.
In WoW I played a Paladin mostly though I tried all the classes and I played it in Vanilla to level 60.
EQ was simple a lot harder all around in terms of grouping if that's what you wanted. I played the supposed easy mode classes which you mentioned and did solo a lot, but the soloing was still far more difficult then my experiences in Vanilla WoW for many different reasons I've mentioned before.
I know WoW didn't have a GPS originally and mentioned it as a strong point of the game. The problem is as you mentioned that people couldn't follow simple quest instructions. If people could do that the GPS may never have been implemented and a key component of adventuring would still be alive which is exploration and random encounters with both wandering mobs and other players.
I guess I have to be more specific or assumptions fly. No, not just this site...many other sites I've been on, and even in several other MMORPG's I've played well since EQ I have read or heard others pining for many of the elements mentioned in the original post. So again, not consensus.
"not hung up on nostalgia and not wearing rosey glasses" This is a weak and tired usage, be more creative. It's no better than what I said and apologized for a few posts ago.
I'm not sure btw why you felt the need to tell me you don't like WoW. Ok.....but I don't recall mentioning you liking it either.
Also, ALL of these current MMORPG's constantly keep repeating the same mistakes. Let's not make it out to be only EQ that was flawed.
So what if people like those games? There's nothing more asinine IMO than labeling people "mouth breathers" due to the video-games they like. Especially when you label "the many" like that because one poster is giving you a hard time.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Oh it's by far not one. And if you read further...I've already apologized for my remarks. It's was a twitch reaction to a non-stop barrage of haters that can't leave a thread alone they don't care for.
There are tons of threads here I could care less for, nor agree with...but I don't make a habit of entering them and bashing away relentlessly. IDK why others find it so difficult to do the same.
Fair enough, I did miss the apology, best thing to do is ignore or block them, they'll go away. Stooping to their level isn't going to help (which you did see obviously hence the apology). It just expands the fight.
AS for your OP screw EQ, I want SWG features :P
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I am a huge SW's fan, and I got to see the beta a bit when a friend of mine got into it. Wasn't impressed at the time...but I was younger too and it was beta. But wish I would have given it more of a look.
I've heard many good things about it and many of it's fans pining for many of it's features same as EQ fans do. But also heard it's makers fudged it up good.
Nearly everyone cares about timesinks. Timesinks dilute gameplay, and gameplay is the purpose of games!
The most common form of fun is gameplay; the act of solving problems, of mastering patterns (Koster, 2003). "Timesinks" are thus things which offer little to no decisions (travel, recovery-downtime, etc).
The act of getting a quest and finding where it's located has never offered interesting gameplay (certainly not in those ~10 other early MMORPGs I played) That's why it's kept deliberately short and simple. It can't be much shorter than it is though, since you want to establish the setting and the sense of travel (like a brief travel montage in a movie which ends with an establishing shot of the new environment.)
Once you're there that's when the gameplay happens, since most of the game design tends to go into making combat interesting (and ideally quests always send you against new types of mobs, so that optimizing your rotation against them is varied in some way.)
All of which adds up to a tremendously better experience than what I saw in those other ~10 games, where you mostly just sat and killed the same mob type for hours on end. So those early games definitely were far far worse about "staying in the same place". As for "following instructions", getting quests is mostly the player saying "serve me up more content" so there's a bit of a "who's instructing who?" question there.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Travel is not a time sink. It is part of an adventure. You don't seem to understand that. Exploring is fun. As I mentioned before that is part of why people explored the world and expanded. If travel was thought of as a time sink then no one would travel anywhere. Everyone would just sit in the same place. Regardless of this I don't see how time is so precious to so many they can't just enjoy the experience. It's really amazing that anyone is enjoying games if they can't relax enough to be happy without getting their loot or level fix for the day. As I've mentioned at nauseam I consider the current day mechanics the true time sink. There are no complex puzzles in MMOs that you mention. The dungeons in EQ were more complex then what you see in MMOs today. The only thing you really do is combat and that's it. To me that is a time sink. You jump in, don't really have a meaningful fun experience in any way and you jump out. You might as well just not play at all. I know you are just going to repeat how everything is just a time sink and how you need to be lead right to the supposed fun. This is in essence a futile argument that will never end as you will just repeat the same thing and ignore what I said. Instead I'll just post a few definitions of words for you.
Adventure
engage in hazardous and exciting activity, especially the exploration of unknown territory.
So basically most of these MMOs that have a GPS can not claim to have any adventures or be adventure games because there is no exploration.
Exploration
The act of traveling through in or through or through an unfamiliar are in order to learn about it.
Okay then, it's nostalgia and only some features here can be considered beneficial if they had the excess fat trimmed.
I'd say it more and all I want, but then I'd get cited for spamming.
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Complexity of dungeons/raids was never an issue, not even in today's MMOs. WoW's raids are as hard as they were and probably involve more complex interactions and scripts than before. Go try a mythic raid if you don't believe me.
I agree with you that travel is important as you explore the world this way. Excessive travel may become a bit too much but then again everyone has different levels of tolerance towards this.
Once upon a time we had to spent 1 hour to gather a dungeon party and spent another 1 hour travelling to said dungeon. So you would often spend like 90-100 min before you even get to the dungeon. Back then I found it ok but I certainly wouldn't be happy today. If I had to spent 90 min getting a party going (Vanilla/TBC WoW) then spend another 3-5 hours in the dungeon, then sadly I would probably have to leave by the time the dungeon was about to start. So then unless I have like 3-4 hours of spare time to play, I wouldn't bother.
What you do say about the "GPS" thing is wrong though. MMOs that have a GPS cannot claim to hve any adventures or have any exploration. Now when you say things like that you are bound to flame bait and troll people to reply to you. So you are telling me that all the exploration I did in WoW and ESO was nonexistant?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
That's a good point. To much time spend on anything is not a good thing as it detracts from real life. I think exploration is important, but perhaps the game mechanics for it need to be tweaked in a such a way that it doesn't take so much time to explore. I just don't like the GPS and ! marks.
I suppose the ability to toggle them off is not an option?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky