I always find it odd that developers want players to see all the content they create but don't care if worlds and zones they create become unused due to the server maturing. To me I would want to use and resuse all content and world areas. Even games like EQ you could return to some old zones because it had mixed level content. Its also isolates the community more because you're neatly funneled through the world with old areas becoming newbie and forcing developers to instance everything to avoid end game overpopulation.
I believe that quest should be few, deep, long and not tied to progression. Generic task that are given as quest should be automated procedural generated at points that can randomly appear on flagged on proper npcs. Not need to waste recources to make new generic crap people mindlessly click and kill through.
Progression shouldn't invalidate the world totally. Levels generally are just escalation of numbers multipliers. Instead of 10 hp and 10 damage you have 100 hp and do 100 damage but the enemies your level also scale. Levels like that make old content too easy or useless. That's why I would stay away from levels. You can just have abilities gain and become more effecient in the usage. That way the 30 level 30 foot demon doesn't die when you fart on them because you're level 50.
I would design the world based around difficulty that require skill, knowledge and properly equipped characters, not levels that don't really change anything but numbers. Meaning if I create Hell as a hard area it would always be a hard area even after 25 expansions.
I think there is a pretty simple solution to this and it has been discussed before.
Number one is to have levels not give huge boost to stats. Tie the different pools like HP, MP, and stamina directly to stats like Constitution and Intelligence. You can give the player the choice of investing in x stat (strength, dexterity, constitution, etc.) Each level. Each point will raise said stat a very small amount.
The other important thing would be to have equipment that doesn't increase attributes. Have weapons increase in damage from one type to the next (rusty copper sword, copper sword, fine copper sword, iron sword, steel sword, etc.). The same thing with armor. Each upgrade might increase damage or durability of a weapon/armor/tool by a very small amount. When you get to the point where you have magic/enchanted items give effects like fire damage + 1, + 1 vs Goblins, change to stun on hit, chance to turn invisible temporarily on hit, or something fun like the swords tells jokes. Don't give bonuses like +3 to strength/stamina/agility/intelligence/hp/mp/stamina/etc. This is what really distances certain players at the beginning from the ones at the end and trivializes low level area content.
I agree with this for the most part. No matter how I try I cannot get into today's games for more than a couple of months at the most. The lack of immersion, the focus on instant gratification and cash shops just kills it.
I like the feeling of being in a living breathing world which is missing from the games today.
"I like the feeling of being in a living breathing world which is missing from the games today."
He has spent the last week trying to step on every reason we liked EverQuest while pushing his pro-modern bias. Every time a point was made that explained why we enjoy an old game, he dismissed it and tried to explain it away patronizingly as if we were wrong and misguided. Even when his opinions are completely refuted, he still goes on saying the exact same things with incoherent fervor. Its one thing to have an opinion, but he has completely dumped on this thread, turning it from one of positive discussion of what used to be good about MMORPGs to why we should forget about those things and accept games made for the masses.
So spare me.
Actually the couple times my posts have been refuted in the forums recently I came right out and admitted they had made a good point. For a long time nobody was able to come up with a reason to do slow travel -- the reasons people said they wanted slow travel were just as possible with fast travel -- and then finally someone (the OP I think?) pointed out the social element, and I said out it was a valid point. You can't achieve socialization to the same degree in a fast travel game, in spite of the mountain of other advantages fast travel provides.
I've never claimed someone's gaming preferences are wrong. Opinions are subjective. If you say you had fun, you probably had fun.
But we can understand the positives/negatives of any given feature by thinking through them, and we can objectively know how many people have certain subjective opinions, and even get at the underlying motivation of most players. And with this knowledge we can say whether certain things are generally good design ideas or not, and spreading this knowledge will help players have realistic expectations when it comes to games -- because a lot of people have very unrealistic expectations and it leads to frustration.
Echo chambers are actually pretty dangerous things, so I'm sorry if you expected a thread full of only positive posts. The reality is that logical criticism is a healthy process.
Also, if something seemed incoherent to you, I'd be glad to help you with whatever that was. My "fervor" is really only about education and truth.
Ok, education and truth.
Well, people like me are tired of 3 month chucks. I.E. games we try and play for 3 months then set them aside and let them collect dust. I, played EQ for almost 10 years. SWG for several years, LOTRO for a couple of years. I've 'tried' ALOT of other games in between. Some I played for over the 3 month chuck period, but nothing recent. There are people that have been with WoW since it started and are still playing it. Companies that continue to make the 3 month chucks are going after that 3 months worth of cash. Mainly either early access money, box price or if F2P, cash shop money. When a toon can be maxed in less than a week, what kind of development costs do you think went into the game itself? Especially when thier graphics engines are already made. They added in PVP, PVP battles and 2 weeks worth of content and crafting. Beyond the animation and modeling cost and how long the game was in development, they are making bank on their 3 month chuck. (though some play these games for alot longer) This is reality and what the industry has been doing. And everyone gets paid, isn't it great? <---Sarcasm
With this nostalgia comes an absolute, unbridled addiction factor. The yearning to log in far after 3 months has passed BECAUSE you're only level 25 and still haven't found that spell or been able to get mats for that staff of power. Or you see someone with a Short Sword of Rainbows and you KNOW that his guild earned that by just playing the game. I don't have alot of time to devote to a guild that will want to push raid attendance or demand time out of me but there will be guilds built of more casual players as well and I'll join one of those. To look forward to coming home after work, walking the dogs, a quick bite and do my gaming thing. That is the nostalgia that people like me are looking for. Lately, while my wife watches Downton Abbey and fiddles with her ipad and iphone, I just have one earbud in and I am just playing something I am only marginally happy with because gaming is what I do. Nostalgia is: I've got my gaming headset on and getting told to try and be quieter because the Dark Assassin of Impurity just dropped that Short Sword of Rainbows and I won the roll so its mine, ALL MINE! WOOHOO!
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
Well, people like me are tired of 3 month chucks. I.E. games we try and play for 3 months then set them aside and let them collect dust. I, played EQ for almost 10 years. SWG for several years, LOTRO for a couple of years. I've 'tried' ALOT of other games in between. Some I played for over the 3 month chuck period, but nothing recent. There are people that have been with WoW since it started and are still playing it. Companies that continue to make the 3 month chucks are going after that 3 months worth of cash. Mainly either early access money, box price or if F2P, cash shop money. When a toon can be maxed in less than a week, what kind of development costs do you think went into the game itself? Especially when thier graphics engines are already made. They added in PVP, PVP battles and 2 weeks worth of content and crafting. Beyond the animation and modeling cost and how long the game was in development, they are making bank on their 3 month chuck. (though some play these games for alot longer) This is reality and what the industry has been doing. And everyone gets paid, isn't it great? <---Sarcasm
With this nostalgia comes an absolute, unbridled addiction factor. The yearning to log in far after 3 months has passed BECAUSE you're only level 25 and still haven't found that spell or been able to get mats for that staff of power. Or you see someone with a Short Sword of Rainbows and you KNOW that his guild earned that by just playing the game. I don't have alot of time to devote to a guild that will want to push raid attendance or demand time out of me but there will be guilds built of more casual players as well and I'll join one of those. To look forward to coming home after work, walking the dogs, a quick bite and do my gaming thing. That is the nostalgia that people like me are looking for. Lately, while my wife watches Downton Abbey and fiddles with her ipad and iphone, I just have one earbud in and I am just playing something I am only marginally happy with because gaming is what I do. Nostalgia is: I've got my gaming headset on and getting told to try and be quieter because the Dark Assassin of Impurity just dropped that Short Sword of Rainbows and I won the roll so its mine, ALL MINE! WOOHOO!
Well again, I can't dispute the fact that you clearly enjoyed your time there. It's just important to note that if WOW's player retention was such that only 30% of players made it past level 10 (just before Cataclysm's release) that it was likely that slightly fewer players made it past the similar playtime mark in EQ (which wouldn't be level 10, as I understand leveling was quite a lot slower there.)
This means that for over 70% of the players trying these games, it wasn't even a 10-level game, let alone a 3-month one.
Given the weak early-game retention it definitely made sense to apply more of a focus to early game than late-game. Nobody's suggesting every company ended up doing this perfectly, because if you don't provide some reason for high-end players (who are your most loyal hardcore players) to stick around, they're going to leave. But clearly there is some potential upside to improving things for the 70% of players who are quitting out that early.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Times people dont complain about grind or compare x y z game
Everyone are happy and have guild feel
Now people complain about everything
Everything its grind
Everything is boring
Everything is sux
Hype Next game
Old times people living actual game not next one
You did hit it right partially, but ill clarify
Old school:
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks is a grind"
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks is boring"
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks sux"
Modern:
*replace with endgame raiding*
Just some more hypotheticals: if you did progression in EQ for years, invested really countless hours in game and your character/s, would you really be on board to just hop to another game thats just like it and repeat the same?
Times people dont complain about grind or compare x y z game
Everyone are happy and have guild feel
Now people complain about everything
Everything its grind
Everything is boring
Everything is sux
Hype Next game
Old times people living actual game not next one
You did hit it right partially, but ill clarify
Old school:
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks is a grind"
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks is boring"
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks sux"
Modern:
*replace with endgame raiding*
Just some more hypotheticals: if you did progression in EQ for years, invested really countless hours in game and your character/s, would you really be on board to just hop to another game thats just like it and repeat the same?
Your "clarification" is piss poor at best.
Let me spell it out for you (and it is not just you by the way) :
When someone says "they want the features such as EQ had," they are not saying that they actually want some effin duplicate of EQ.
Every single feature from the OP and others mentioned, can actually coexist within the same mmorpg, if done correctly. Now, when I say "correctly," that is to say that there are correct ways of implementing features that will work -- AND NOT that I have the end all solution of wtf "correct" exactly is (yeah, peeps need crap spelled out for them apparently).
So while this thread continues to collect outright ridiculous comments about "how bad EQ was"... Consider that it is NOT SOME EXACT REPLICA OF EQ that people are even saying they want.
So what exactly would differentiate "game that has features like EQ" and EQ?
All i ever saw were superficial differences like graphics/UI
Same thing like WoW and its clones. Core features defined and superficial differences, maybe with a "twist"
But....its sounds like a duck, it walks like a duck, looks like a duck...its just not white duck but brown duck. But duck it is.
Times people dont complain about grind or compare x y z game
Everyone are happy and have guild feel
Now people complain about everything
Everything its grind
Everything is boring
Everything is sux
Hype Next game
Old times people living actual game not next one
You did hit it right partially, but ill clarify
Old school:
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks is a grind"
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks is boring"
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks sux"
Modern:
*replace with endgame raiding*
Just some more hypotheticals: if you did progression in EQ for years, invested really countless hours in game and your character/s, would you really be on board to just hop to another game thats just like it and repeat the same?
Your "clarification" is piss poor at best.
Let me spell it out for you (and it is not just you by the way) :
When someone says "they want the features such as EQ had," they are not saying that they actually want some effin duplicate of EQ.
Every single feature from the OP and others mentioned, can actually coexist within the same mmorpg, if done correctly. Now, when I say "correctly," that is to say that there are correct ways of implementing features that will work -- AND NOT that I have the end all solution of wtf "correct" exactly is (yeah, peeps need crap spelled out for them apparently).
So while this thread continues to collect outright ridiculous comments about "how bad EQ was"... Consider that it is NOT SOME EXACT REPLICA OF EQ that people are even saying they want.
So what exactly would differentiate "game that has features like EQ" and EQ?
All i ever saw were superficial differences like graphics/UI
Same thing like WoW and its clones. Core features defined and superficial differences, maybe with a "twist"
But....its sounds like a duck, it walks like a duck, looks like a duck...its just not white duck but brown duck. But duck it is.
"A dangerous open world where discovery and exploration are actually part of the experience, and are experienced through a well designed world which requires travel. The possibility of finding faster or safer ways to travel should be involved. Building a powerful character should take time, and should require working together with others (ie grouping and building community in an MMO? Go figure). Quests should not be laundry lists, they should be EPIC and-or not created for an on the rails experience." -- The OP basically summed up.
That "duck" can be implemented numerous ways, such that would no where near be the duck you are talking about. Just because you (and others) can not imagine ways that those points can be pulled together (which is basically the entire OP summed up), does not mean that it is impossible. Those points are so damn general in their scope, they leave A LOT open as far as design possibilities.
You know that people just hate that the old had something good embedded in it right? That's what they won't accept. You know, it's funny. If I, tonight maybe logged into say SWTOR, RIFT or AOC or even something new like FFIVX or The Repopulation, made a new character then spent an equal amount of time in each then did the same with a certain EMU I wont mention and did the same, I'd likely want to spend more time in the EMU then go back to these other games. That is the reality of what I am talking about. A reality that is hard to explain and the masses refuse to understand or appreciate. If 'aspects' of that game were reinvented and modernized....NOT simplified and dumbed down mind you, no one could stop me from doing what I said I never would again and throw my money at it. If it or something like it never happens, it is likely I will give up my favorite past-time because just like I tried all of these games and played them for a while I'll likely find something different altogether that draws me away from my PC.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
There are many things from the original MMO's that were never iterated on and are missing in today's MMO's.
Things like Infravision/Ultravision, Tracking, factions that you could manipulate to your benefit or detriment, massive sprawling dungeons, dangerous mobs that even could charm you, hunger/thirst mechanics, passing down gear to younger players, communities where you'd know, or could ask, where to find a decent smith/jeweler/craftsman to make something you'd actually want to use for more than a few levels, etc.
Times people dont complain about grind or compare x y z game
Everyone are happy and have guild feel
Now people complain about everything
Everything its grind
Everything is boring
Everything is sux
Hype Next game
Old times people living actual game not next one
You did hit it right partially, but ill clarify
Old school:
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks is a grind"
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks is boring"
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks sux"
Modern:
*replace with endgame raiding*
Just some more hypotheticals: if you did progression in EQ for years, invested really countless hours in game and your character/s, would you really be on board to just hop to another game thats just like it and repeat the same?
Your "clarification" is piss poor at best.
Let me spell it out for you (and it is not just you by the way) :
When someone says "they want the features such as EQ had," they are not saying that they actually want some effin duplicate of EQ.
Every single feature from the OP and others mentioned, can actually coexist within the same mmorpg, if done correctly. Now, when I say "correctly," that is to say that there are correct ways of implementing features that will work -- AND NOT that I have the end all solution of wtf "correct" exactly is (yeah, peeps need crap spelled out for them apparently).
So while this thread continues to collect outright ridiculous comments about "how bad EQ was"... Consider that it is NOT SOME EXACT REPLICA OF EQ that people are even saying they want.
So what exactly would differentiate "game that has features like EQ" and EQ?
All i ever saw were superficial differences like graphics/UI
Same thing like WoW and its clones. Core features defined and superficial differences, maybe with a "twist"
But....its sounds like a duck, it walks like a duck, looks like a duck...its just not white duck but brown duck. But duck it is.
"A dangerous open world where discovery and exploration are actually part of the experience, and are experienced through a well designed world which requires travel. The possibility of finding faster or safer ways to travel should be involved. Building a powerful character should take time, and should require working together with others (ie grouping and building community in an MMO? Go figure). Quests should not be laundry lists, they should be EPIC and-or not created for an on the rails experience." -- The OP basically summed up.
That "duck" can be implemented numerous ways, such that would no where near be the duck you are talking about. Just because you (and others) can not imagine ways that those points can be pulled together (which is basically the entire OP summed up), does not mean that it is impossible. Those points are so damn general in their scope, they leave A LOT open as far as design possibilities.
Sorry, but something esothric like "completely different yet same at the same time" is why you guys will never have a game again. You cant have it and not have it at the same time, sorry.
i can imagine lot of stuff. I can imagine flying through the clouds, you know, superman style. But thats just imagination. But maybe, maybe it could happen?...maybe....someday...
Its even present in his "summary" where he did give some "detail"
"Quests should not be laundry lists,"
it will be a list of things to do. How would quest without a list of things to do - exist?
"they should be EPIC"
i get to kill teh emperor himself. after being controled by him (because of rash bad decision), but manage to break control (and a lot of stuff in between) "epic" enough? nah, more like "epic grind quest", old school way
not created for an on the rails experience.
how in the world would that work. you go and kill the dragon, then find a village that is harrased by (now dead) dragon, then find companions who will help me kill (now dead) dragon, and then you wake up on a shore of world which apparently has dragons in it
Sorry, but something esothric like "completely different yet same at the same time" is why you guys will never have a game again. You cant have it and not have it at the same time, sorry.
i can imagine lot of stuff. I can imagine flying through the clouds, you know, superman style. But thats just imagination. But maybe, maybe it could happen?...maybe....someday...
Its even present in his "summary" where he did give some "detail"
"Quests should not be laundry lists,"
it will be a list of things to do. How would quest without a list of things to do - exist?
"they should be EPIC"
i get to kill teh emperor himself. after being controled by him (because of rash bad decision), but manage to break control (and a lot of stuff in between) "epic" enough? nah, more like "epic grind quest", old school way
not created for an on the rails experience.
how in the world would that work. you go and kill the dragon, then find a village that is harrased by (now dead) dragon, then find companions who will help me kill (now dead) dragon, and then you wake up on a shore of world which apparently has dragons in it
this "non-linear" stuff always cracks me up
I think by on-rails they mean having a hub (like a town) full of quests that then have objectives on your minimap telling you directly where to go, what to do, and how to do it. Folks never said you should slay the dragon, then get a quest the slay the dragon from a local village.
You should be able to slay the dragon without the quest. When you walk into the village with your newly severed dragon head trophy, the villagers should recognize it and go, "Oh my! You finally killed that damned dragon that's been stealing our cattle! Here, take this as a token of our gratitude! If you're the type, I hear stories of a band of orcs raiding villages along the coast to the east.. Rumor is, there's a fine reward for any adventurer brave enough to seek out the band's stronghold and put an end to those raids!"
A much more organic system than, "Hey, see this here exclamation point?? That means I have a quest! Here, lemme plaster a list of objectives on the right side of your screen.. Now, just follow the yellow arrow on your minimap, find the glowy flowers... That's it. You'll need 8 of 'em. Now, follow the arrow again. Here, I need you to right-click on this shiny altar.. Wait for it.. Wait for it.. Voila! You have made a potion! Now kill 5 Orcs over here.. Yup, you guessed it- follow the arrow! Don't worry, I have the EXACT mob names plastered on the right side of your screen. Just fill the queues.." etc.
"A dangerous open world where discovery and exploration are actually part of the experience, and are experienced through a well designed world which requires travel. The possibility of finding faster or safer ways to travel should be involved. Building a powerful character should take time, and should require working together with others (ie grouping and building community in an MMO? Go figure). Quests should not be laundry lists, they should be EPIC and-or not created for an on the rails experience." -- The OP basically summed up.
That "duck" can be implemented numerous ways, such that would no where near be the duck you are talking about. Just because you (and others) can not imagine ways that those points can be pulled together (which is basically the entire OP summed up), does not mean that it is impossible. Those points are so damn general in their scope, they leave A LOT open as far as design possibilities.
Sorry, but something esothric like "completely different yet same at the same time" is why you guys will never have a game again. You cant have it and not have it at the same time, sorry.
I assume you meant "esoteric"? As in mysterious or along those lines? If so, what is so esoteric about what I stated there? And what does what I stated have to do with "having and not having anything at the same time"?
i can imagine lot of stuff. I can imagine flying through the clouds, you know, superman style. But thats just imagination. But maybe, maybe it could happen?...maybe....someday...
Based on your example of your "imagination," I am led to believe that "no," you actually can not imagine much. You have seen any Superman movies? Cartoons? Played a game with Superman? Seeing it, and believing that you can "imagine it" after you have already seen it, is not really imagining anything.
Its even present in his "summary" where he did give some "detail"
"Quests should not be laundry lists,"
it will be a list of things to do. How would quest without a list of things to do - exist?
Okay, some clarification is obviously in order here. The "usual laundry list" would have better described what not to do. Such as the constant laundry lists of :
1. Kill / Collect X Quests
2. Talk to / Escort NPC X
You want details as to how to actually create real quests worth a player doing? Sure because while divulging such information, I will not be divulging my 5.4+ million strategy categories' system I intend on using for my own eventual MMORPG, which will really make this one piece of information scream...
Skill-Triggered Quests. Thus, never do the usual laundry lists ever act as the "to do" part of any quest. This also guarantees that unless you create the exact same class and are in the exact same zone, you will never have the exact same quest. This alone I have never seen done.
"they should be EPIC"
i get to kill the emperor himself. after being controlled by him (because of rash bad decision), but manage to break control (and a lot of stuff in between) "epic" enough? nah, more like "epic grind quest", old school way
That actually does not sound very EPIC at all. Great example of an EPIC quest... Ever see the trilogy of movies, "Lord of the Ring"? That is a good example of an EPIC quest. It is a simple quest, "destroy this ring, inside that volcano." That one instruction of a quest led to a great many places, through many different events which took place, with many others seeking to help, hinder or kill Frodo. The ring itself could be worn and had adverse side effects (as well as power), including physically on Frodo, and leading those hunting Frodo more easily to him. Frodo even had to make his way around at least one massive army of orcs I think it was, which most certainly would have killed him without any chance of survival. Overall, that story is an EPIC quest.
not created for an on the rails experience.
how in the world would that work. you go and kill the dragon, then find a village that is harrased by (now dead) dragon, then find companions who will help me kill (now dead) dragon, and then you wake up on a shore of world which apparently has dragons in it
this "non-linear" stuff always cracks me up
Again, it is due to imagination. I can assure you.
"Off the rails" simply means that you are not guided.
Look at it this way...
You create your character.
Upon entering the world, you can wander off in any direction.
Every direction has different stories, encounters, blah blah, as found in any MMORPG.
There are ways through design, that you can place various "quest starters" throughout any of those directions.
Those "quest starters" could be some environmentally planted rotting corpse just slightly off the road, or a corpse or item off a corpse of some creature you just killed, or some item you find in a shack or abandoned wagon just off the road. There could be other things also nearby... hmm... perhaps a Nerksil (Raid Giant that wandered in lowbie areas in Vanguard)?
Those "quest starters" could give clues which would lead you elsewhere.
So, you head off to where you think you should head, and run into some other event, etc etc...
One of the things that even would allows this, is travel. Not of the instant variety.
Non-linear does not necessarily mean you will not end up in the same areas, because you likely will.
Given "skill-triggered quests" as I earlier mentioned, you certainly would not have the same quests on any variety of classes, so long as they were different classes (or chose different skills).
Non-linear means a game designer designs the world, and does not know where you as a player, will end up going. This allows each character to end up with different gears, experiencing different parts of the world, having different stories once they meet up with others, etc etc (This also applies toward alts).
Linear means that as a designer, they can know exactly where you are, which way you will go, approximately when, what type of gear you will have, etc etc... Did I mention any other character you make will simply do the exact same thing, and your next, and your next until you have pulled your eyes out of your own sockets. Well, maybe not you...
That spells out the general ideas, I hope. (Also see what MadFrenchie wrote just above my post here, saying you haven't yet)
I'm slightly confused by this post. Are you saying that currently available quests are the pinnacle of quest design? That they fulfill the player's desires and their mechanical function within the gameworld so fully as to make it foolhardy to attempt an evolution or unique perspective on them in the future?
There are many things from the original MMO's that were never iterated on and are missing in today's MMO's.
Things like Infravision/Ultravision, Tracking, factions that you could manipulate to your benefit or detriment, massive sprawling dungeons, dangerous mobs that even could charm you, hunger/thirst mechanics, passing down gear to younger players, communities where you'd know, or could ask, where to find a decent smith/jeweler/craftsman to make something you'd actually want to use for more than a few levels, etc.
That was a really good list Arallu01! I miss all that stuff (and yes, I realize a lot of that is just a time sink to many!).
I'm hoping AI will advance enough that quest givers will consider all components of the player and his/her friends. I also like the idea of AI creating quests on the fly, as needed.
I just hate these quest grinding mmorpg like WoW so much. It makes absolutelly no sense to me.
"Come here, pick these flowers, brew me a potion" and Tadaaa, I level up, I get +8 STR, (Wtf? Where is the logic here?)
I dream of a game where it will have just a few quests, but very big ones, that will immerse you as if you were playing a single player game.
That is why I liked the old games. You really had to work your ass out to get strong, have gears, etc. Nowadays games are aimming to give you Auto Quest and Auto Walk!!! Check Black Desert, for instance, it'll have Auto Walk! How lame is that?
The post on the front page about game design makes me sad. It says they target killing because people can't do that In real life. I bet there are more people that kill in real life then build something by hand, explore, study alchemy, hunt, etc. Basically it says we are all inherently psychopaths and it's easy to play that style for most people so that's how we are going to design games.
The post on the front page about game design makes me sad. It says they target killing because people can't do that In real life. I bet there are more people that kill in real life then build something by hand, explore, study alchemy, hunt, etc. Basically it says we are all inherently psychopaths and it's easy to play that style for most people so that's how we are going to design games.
Heh, why sad? I mean, it's not like it's news, sad but true. Sex and violence sell. Asia focuses more on the first and the west... if you ask me, which is better...
Stereotypes and gross generalizations aside, what you are saying the OP describes is something that has been discussed about gaming for a long time and while there's a bundle of arguments as to why it's been happening, I've at least yet to see a convincing article on the actual effects of it. If you do take the time to do some current literature research on it, it might make a nice discussion in another topic:) Again, I mean.
I hear so many people bring runescape up so often. Even a guy I work with has mentioned it and he is (Was, just had a B-Day) 19 years old. Gonna have to check it out.
But I have been playing EQ1 again for the last 4 or 5 days with no signs of slowing down on Vox Server....actually having a blast and restoring a lot of good memories. Not near as many people playing, as the game is 16 years old, but still a lot of people in particular areas (PoK, Greater Faydar/Crushbone) I've been to so far. Currently a lvl 17 Druid. Definitely has had my starfish puckered up more than any other MMORPG I've played in awhile several times already lol.
I don't think it is all nostalgia. I agree with a lot of the things mentioned about EQ and agree that a lot of the aspects that made these older mmorpg's great are severely lacking in modern mmorpg's.
Quite simply... Mmorpgs are dumbed down in almost every area compared to old mmorpg's like EQ except for graphics and combat system... There are no risks being made and most just stick to essentially an mmorpg template. The thing is I think there are a lot of things in the mmorpg template which I think should be taken out and generally dumb down a game a lot and make them much less immersive and fun. Much less like a rpg, a proper virtual world, and more like just a "game".
Open world.
Like was mentioned, there were zones in EQ but one thing which is very different from most mmorpg's now is how varied the levels of mobs, areas, expansive dungeons and just overall variety and mixing up of the scale in the game.
You could go to an easy area, walk 5 minutes across the terrain and run into some lvl 60 odd mobs which would woop your ass. It was actually dangerous, there was potential threat everywhere. Some dungeons also went deep deep underground and to die in one could mean a long corpse run which was actually a good thing. There was some true risk vs reward in the game.
Difficulty.
The difficulty of the game was certainly much higher than most mmorpg's and the way the skills were made, game mechanics and the balance meant that it would generally be really beneficial to group up. That was great for community and It was not just restricted to dungeons or raids.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
Comments
I think there is a pretty simple solution to this and it has been discussed before.
Number one is to have levels not give huge boost to stats. Tie the different pools like HP, MP, and stamina directly to stats like Constitution and Intelligence. You can give the player the choice of investing in x stat (strength, dexterity, constitution, etc.) Each level. Each point will raise said stat a very small amount.
The other important thing would be to have equipment that doesn't increase attributes. Have weapons increase in damage from one type to the next (rusty copper sword, copper sword, fine copper sword, iron sword, steel sword, etc.). The same thing with armor. Each upgrade might increase damage or durability of a weapon/armor/tool by a very small amount. When you get to the point where you have magic/enchanted items give effects like fire damage + 1, + 1 vs Goblins, change to stun on hit, chance to turn invisible temporarily on hit, or something fun like the swords tells jokes. Don't give bonuses like +3 to strength/stamina/agility/intelligence/hp/mp/stamina/etc. This is what really distances certain players at the beginning from the ones at the end and trivializes low level area content.
"I like the feeling of being in a living breathing world which is missing from the games today."
exactly. 100%...exactly.
Ok, education and truth.
Well, people like me are tired of 3 month chucks. I.E. games we try and play for 3 months then set them aside and let them collect dust. I, played EQ for almost 10 years. SWG for several years, LOTRO for a couple of years. I've 'tried' ALOT of other games in between. Some I played for over the 3 month chuck period, but nothing recent. There are people that have been with WoW since it started and are still playing it. Companies that continue to make the 3 month chucks are going after that 3 months worth of cash. Mainly either early access money, box price or if F2P, cash shop money. When a toon can be maxed in less than a week, what kind of development costs do you think went into the game itself? Especially when thier graphics engines are already made. They added in PVP, PVP battles and 2 weeks worth of content and crafting. Beyond the animation and modeling cost and how long the game was in development, they are making bank on their 3 month chuck. (though some play these games for alot longer) This is reality and what the industry has been doing. And everyone gets paid, isn't it great? <---Sarcasm
With this nostalgia comes an absolute, unbridled addiction factor. The yearning to log in far after 3 months has passed BECAUSE you're only level 25 and still haven't found that spell or been able to get mats for that staff of power. Or you see someone with a Short Sword of Rainbows and you KNOW that his guild earned that by just playing the game. I don't have alot of time to devote to a guild that will want to push raid attendance or demand time out of me but there will be guilds built of more casual players as well and I'll join one of those. To look forward to coming home after work, walking the dogs, a quick bite and do my gaming thing. That is the nostalgia that people like me are looking for. Lately, while my wife watches Downton Abbey and fiddles with her ipad and iphone, I just have one earbud in and I am just playing something I am only marginally happy with because gaming is what I do. Nostalgia is: I've got my gaming headset on and getting told to try and be quieter because the Dark Assassin of Impurity just dropped that Short Sword of Rainbows and I won the roll so its mine, ALL MINE! WOOHOO!
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
Well again, I can't dispute the fact that you clearly enjoyed your time there. It's just important to note that if WOW's player retention was such that only 30% of players made it past level 10 (just before Cataclysm's release) that it was likely that slightly fewer players made it past the similar playtime mark in EQ (which wouldn't be level 10, as I understand leveling was quite a lot slower there.)
This means that for over 70% of the players trying these games, it wasn't even a 10-level game, let alone a 3-month one.
Given the weak early-game retention it definitely made sense to apply more of a focus to early game than late-game. Nobody's suggesting every company ended up doing this perfectly, because if you don't provide some reason for high-end players (who are your most loyal hardcore players) to stick around, they're going to leave. But clearly there is some potential upside to improving things for the 70% of players who are quitting out that early.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Times people dont complain about grind or compare x y z game
Everyone are happy and have guild feel
Now people complain about everything
Everything its grind
Everything is boring
Everything is sux
Hype Next game
Old times people living actual game not next one
You did hit it right partially, but ill clarify
Old school:
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks is a grind"
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks is boring"
"sitting in same spot pulling/obliterating same mobs for hours a day for weeks sux"
Modern:
*replace with endgame raiding*
Just some more hypotheticals: if you did progression in EQ for years, invested really countless hours in game and your character/s, would you really be on board to just hop to another game thats just like it and repeat the same?
So what exactly would differentiate "game that has features like EQ" and EQ?
All i ever saw were superficial differences like graphics/UI
Same thing like WoW and its clones. Core features defined and superficial differences, maybe with a "twist"
But....its sounds like a duck, it walks like a duck, looks like a duck...its just not white duck but brown duck. But duck it is.
You know that people just hate that the old had something good embedded in it right? That's what they won't accept. You know, it's funny. If I, tonight maybe logged into say SWTOR, RIFT or AOC or even something new like FFIVX or The Repopulation, made a new character then spent an equal amount of time in each then did the same with a certain EMU I wont mention and did the same, I'd likely want to spend more time in the EMU then go back to these other games. That is the reality of what I am talking about. A reality that is hard to explain and the masses refuse to understand or appreciate. If 'aspects' of that game were reinvented and modernized....NOT simplified and dumbed down mind you, no one could stop me from doing what I said I never would again and throw my money at it. If it or something like it never happens, it is likely I will give up my favorite past-time because just like I tried all of these games and played them for a while I'll likely find something different altogether that draws me away from my PC.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
There are many things from the original MMO's that were never iterated on and are missing in today's MMO's.
Things like Infravision/Ultravision, Tracking, factions that you could manipulate to your benefit or detriment, massive sprawling dungeons, dangerous mobs that even could charm you, hunger/thirst mechanics, passing down gear to younger players, communities where you'd know, or could ask, where to find a decent smith/jeweler/craftsman to make something you'd actually want to use for more than a few levels, etc.
Sorry, but something esothric like "completely different yet same at the same time" is why you guys will never have a game again. You cant have it and not have it at the same time, sorry.
i can imagine lot of stuff. I can imagine flying through the clouds, you know, superman style. But thats just imagination. But maybe, maybe it could happen?...maybe....someday...
Its even present in his "summary" where he did give some "detail"
"Quests should not be laundry lists,"
it will be a list of things to do. How would quest without a list of things to do - exist?
"they should be EPIC"
i get to kill teh emperor himself. after being controled by him (because of rash bad decision), but manage to break control (and a lot of stuff in between) "epic" enough? nah, more like "epic grind quest", old school way
not created for an on the rails experience.
how in the world would that work. you go and kill the dragon, then find a village that is harrased by (now dead) dragon, then find companions who will help me kill (now dead) dragon, and then you wake up on a shore of world which apparently has dragons in it
this "non-linear" stuff always cracks me up
I think by on-rails they mean having a hub (like a town) full of quests that then have objectives on your minimap telling you directly where to go, what to do, and how to do it. Folks never said you should slay the dragon, then get a quest the slay the dragon from a local village.
You should be able to slay the dragon without the quest. When you walk into the village with your newly severed dragon head trophy, the villagers should recognize it and go, "Oh my! You finally killed that damned dragon that's been stealing our cattle! Here, take this as a token of our gratitude! If you're the type, I hear stories of a band of orcs raiding villages along the coast to the east.. Rumor is, there's a fine reward for any adventurer brave enough to seek out the band's stronghold and put an end to those raids!"
A much more organic system than, "Hey, see this here exclamation point?? That means I have a quest! Here, lemme plaster a list of objectives on the right side of your screen.. Now, just follow the yellow arrow on your minimap, find the glowy flowers... That's it. You'll need 8 of 'em. Now, follow the arrow again. Here, I need you to right-click on this shiny altar.. Wait for it.. Wait for it.. Voila! You have made a potion! Now kill 5 Orcs over here.. Yup, you guessed it- follow the arrow! Don't worry, I have the EXACT mob names plastered on the right side of your screen. Just fill the queues.." etc.
Yeah...i encourage you to make that MMO
I'm slightly confused by this post. Are you saying that currently available quests are the pinnacle of quest design? That they fulfill the player's desires and their mechanical function within the gameworld so fully as to make it foolhardy to attempt an evolution or unique perspective on them in the future?
That was a really good list Arallu01! I miss all that stuff (and yes, I realize a lot of that is just a time sink to many!).
I'm hoping AI will advance enough that quest givers will consider all components of the player and his/her friends. I also like the idea of AI creating quests on the fly, as needed.
Kind of like Cardinal does in SAO.
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
I just hate these quest grinding mmorpg like WoW so much. It makes absolutelly no sense to me.
"Come here, pick these flowers, brew me a potion" and Tadaaa, I level up, I get +8 STR, (Wtf? Where is the logic here?)
I dream of a game where it will have just a few quests, but very big ones, that will immerse you as if you were playing a single player game.
That is why I liked the old games. You really had to work your ass out to get strong, have gears, etc. Nowadays games are aimming to give you Auto Quest and Auto Walk!!! Check Black Desert, for instance, it'll have Auto Walk! How lame is that?
The post on the front page about game design makes me sad. It says they target killing because people can't do that In real life. I bet there are more people that kill in real life then build something by hand, explore, study alchemy, hunt, etc. Basically it says we are all inherently psychopaths and it's easy to play that style for most people so that's how we are going to design games.
Heh, why sad? I mean, it's not like it's news, sad but true. Sex and violence sell. Asia focuses more on the first and the west... if you ask me, which is better...
Stereotypes and gross generalizations aside, what you are saying the OP describes is something that has been discussed about gaming for a long time and while there's a bundle of arguments as to why it's been happening, I've at least yet to see a convincing article on the actual effects of it. If you do take the time to do some current literature research on it, it might make a nice discussion in another topic:) Again, I mean.
I hear so many people bring runescape up so often. Even a guy I work with has mentioned it and he is (Was, just had a B-Day) 19 years old. Gonna have to check it out.
But I have been playing EQ1 again for the last 4 or 5 days with no signs of slowing down on Vox Server....actually having a blast and restoring a lot of good memories. Not near as many people playing, as the game is 16 years old, but still a lot of people in particular areas (PoK, Greater Faydar/Crushbone) I've been to so far. Currently a lvl 17 Druid. Definitely has had my starfish puckered up more than any other MMORPG I've played in awhile several times already lol.
I don't think it is all nostalgia. I agree with a lot of the things mentioned about EQ and agree that a lot of the aspects that made these older mmorpg's great are severely lacking in modern mmorpg's.
Quite simply... Mmorpgs are dumbed down in almost every area compared to old mmorpg's like EQ except for graphics and combat system... There are no risks being made and most just stick to essentially an mmorpg template. The thing is I think there are a lot of things in the mmorpg template which I think should be taken out and generally dumb down a game a lot and make them much less immersive and fun. Much less like a rpg, a proper virtual world, and more like just a "game".
Open world.
Like was mentioned, there were zones in EQ but one thing which is very different from most mmorpg's now is how varied the levels of mobs, areas, expansive dungeons and just overall variety and mixing up of the scale in the game.
You could go to an easy area, walk 5 minutes across the terrain and run into some lvl 60 odd mobs which would woop your ass. It was actually dangerous, there was potential threat everywhere. Some dungeons also went deep deep underground and to die in one could mean a long corpse run which was actually a good thing. There was some true risk vs reward in the game.
Difficulty.
The difficulty of the game was certainly much higher than most mmorpg's and the way the skills were made, game mechanics and the balance meant that it would generally be really beneficial to group up. That was great for community and It was not just restricted to dungeons or raids.