That's a good point. To much time spend on anything is not a good thing as it detracts from real life. I think exploration is important, but perhaps the game mechanics for it need to be tweaked in a such a way that it doesn't take so much time to explore. I just don't like the GPS and ! marks.
I suppose the ability to toggle them off is not an option?
Not to me. I think it's too important a part of the core game to give it as an option to turn off or turn on. It would basically be changing the game entirely to have it on or off. One mode would be for adventuring and the other just for killing and looting. Watching other people run from point to point following the GPS while you are exploring wouldn't be much fun and I don't really play games with instances these days.
That's a good point. To much time spend on anything is not a good thing as it detracts from real life. I think exploration is important, but perhaps the game mechanics for it need to be tweaked in a such a way that it doesn't take so much time to explore. I just don't like the GPS and ! marks.
I suppose the ability to toggle them off is not an option?
Not to me. I think it's too important a part of the core game to give it as an option to turn off or turn on. It would basically be changing the game entirely to have it on or off. One mode would be for adventuring and the other just for killing and looting. Watching other people run from point to point following the GPS while you are exploring wouldn't be much fun and I don't really play games with instances these days.
Changes the game entirely? Doubtful. There's certainly no exploration involved with something as trivial as finding the right NPC to click. I don't find reading a map too hard either, GPS is there just so I'd spend more time playing the game rather than shuffling through its menus.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
That's a good point. To much time spend on anything is not a good thing as it detracts from real life. I think exploration is important, but perhaps the game mechanics for it need to be tweaked in a such a way that it doesn't take so much time to explore. I just don't like the GPS and ! marks.
I suppose the ability to toggle them off is not an option?
Not to me. I think it's too important a part of the core game to give it as an option to turn off or turn on. It would basically be changing the game entirely to have it on or off. One mode would be for adventuring and the other just for killing and looting. Watching other people run from point to point following the GPS while you are exploring wouldn't be much fun and I don't really play games with instances these days.
Changes the game entirely? Doubtful. There's certainly no exploration involved with something as trivial as finding the right NPC to click. I don't find reading a map too hard either, GPS is there just so I'd spend more time playing the game rather than shuffling through its menus.
This is an argument that is used over and over again against exploration. I just posted why exploration is important. It is a key component of adventure. You don't have adventure without exploration and unknown factors. Adventure is something that most games say they are based around these days. It's impossible to have adventure without these components.
I've already heard the same arguments against just about everything that is not combat and they are poor at best. Basically it's I don't want to waste time. For some reason it is not a waste of time to kill and loot creatures, but it is a waste of time to explore and talk to NPCs? There is some logic missing in this. You could argue that the killing monsters and looting of monsters is far larger waste of time and contributes to a very shallow game.
As I already explained a GPS takes the adventure away because there is no exploration or chance of random encounters. All you do is follow the GPS around all day and kill monsters. To me this is so obviously a play to get to you to feel you are accomplishing something, but it is such a poor and hollow one that I don't really understand how people derive enjoyment from it or feel this is the fun part.
Finding the right NPCs is never trivial. In EQ people often never found the "right" NPCs and there were no "right" NPCs. At any rate it is part of the experience.
This is an argument that is used over and over again against exploration. I just posted why exploration is important. It is a key component of adventure. You don't have adventure without exploration and unknown factors. Adventure is something that most games say they are based around these days. It's impossible to have adventure without these components.
I've already heard the same arguments against just about everything that is not combat and they are poor at best. Basically it's I don't want to waste time. For some reason it is not a waste of time to kill and loot creatures, but it is a waste of time to explore and talk to NPCs? There is some logic missing in this. You could argue that the killing monsters and looting of monsters is far larger waste of time and contributes to a very shallow game.
As I already explained a GPS takes the adventure away because there is no exploration or chance of random encounters. All you do is follow the GPS around all day and kill monsters. To me this is so obviously a play to get to you to feel you are accomplishing something, but it is such a poor and hollow one that I don't really understand how people derive enjoyment from it or feel this is the fun part.
Finding the right NPCs is never trivial. In EQ people often never found the "right" NPCs and there were no "right" NPCs. At any rate it is part of the experience.
First off, you missed a spot. It should be "For some reason it is not a waste of time to kill and loot creatures, kill and loot creatures, kill and loot creatures, over and over and over, again and again and again." There, fixed.
The answer to your next point, is because they are not Tabletop RPGers, they are not MMORPGers, they are not RPGers... in any sense whatsoever. They are MOBA and FPS gamers.
Very true, but the point still stands. Having only one focus in a game is not enjoyable and there is no logic to saying killing and looting is more fun then anything else you could do in a game.
To those who say exploration is not fun I would say without exploration you wouldn't have the things you enjoy today. There would be no innovation without exploration. People wouldn't have found new materials or lost cities. People wouldn't have experienced new cultures. People wouldn't have changed. There wouldn't be books and movies about adventures.
In terms of finding the right NPCs to talk to not being fun I'd say all good adventures start with talking to people and seeing what they have to say and if they need help with something. People don't often stand there with an exclamation mark over their heads and part of adventuring is getting talking to people and getting the latest gossip to see what's happening and what you want to do. Some NPCs that don't have quests/tasks might have some of the most interesting/funny things to say.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar So which age has more depth?Lots of similarities. Several differences. But more?
Well, considering "RPG" is more then combat, and old MMO's actually had the "RPG" part in the game, I would say, Yes. Some of this, I know is due to players now not caring for "RPG" (aka: Boring) aspects and some may still be in MMOs, but actually playing them is very difficult when the majority of the playerbase poo-poos the activities.The answer will, of, course be different for different players. Those seeking combat simulators will think today's MMOs have much more depth, in how detailed they are in fighting skills, abilities, and activities. How can one compare EQ's Warriors with their autoattack, kick, bash, intimidate, and passive block and dodge skills having more depth then GW2's combat skill trees? There is no way :)However, if a players seeks more the just combat activities, today's MMOs are truly lacking.PS: WoW, in my head, is an old time MMO (2004) that has morphed into a more combat oriented game over the years, kind of like EQ lately. When you use WoW for examples, I get confused, which is nothing new
Wait what?!I don't remember any RPGs being about the mundane things like, gathering & building stuff, tending animals etc. It was all about adventure.
"Mundane." You are saying *your* mundane is "everyone's" mundane? Tabletop RPGs were as varied as the DMs and players that played them.
- Traveller in my group was about interactions and economics. - D&D was about interactions, with some fighting thrown in. We even built a keep, hired NPCs to run it when we were gone, and planned out fields for farming. You did not? - Champions (and Fantasy Hero) were about interactions and character building. Through fighting, yes, but also lots of room for other activities. We built a base for our little Super Group.
I would not have played *your* tabletop games if all you did was fight.
Mundane is a subjective term, kind of like "bad" or "good" or even "fun." Remember the "Uncle Owen" debate in SW:G?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Very true, but the point still stands. Having only one focus in a game is not enjoyable and there is no logic to saying killing and looting is more fun then anything else you could do in a game.
To those who say exploration is not fun I would say without exploration you wouldn't have the things you enjoy today. There would be no innovation without exploration. People wouldn't have found new materials or lost cities. People wouldn't have experienced new cultures. People wouldn't have changed. There wouldn't be books and movies about adventures.
In terms of finding the right NPCs to talk to not being fun I'd say all good adventures start with talking to people and seeing what they have to say and if they need help with something. People don't often stand there with an exclamation mark over their heads and part of adventuring is getting talking to people and getting the latest gossip to see what's happening and what you want to do. Some NPCs that don't have quests/tasks might have some of the most interesting/funny things to say.
"I'm not your daddy. I don't care what she told you." -- Goblin of Martok. (Vanguard)
Exactly. I played many games like Baldur's gate where NPCs had a good quote or story about something going on somewhere in the world. Even going back so far as old RPGs I played on the Nintendo and Super Nintendo there were funny NPC quotes and also obscure facts that would mention something happening somewhere in the world that might be of interest. Baldur's Gate 2 had a group of Kobolds that appeared out of nowhere in the wilderness. They were actually a rock band that had time traveled from the future. They asked you if you wanted and autograph. There was also the classic tavern where you could pickup tidbits about different things going on in different places. In old final fantasy games like Final Fantasy IV and V or Dragon Quest I remember NPCs almost always had something interesting to say or some cryptic monologue that was hard to decipher about what was going on somewhere. Dragon Warrior VII was like this as well. It added to the mystique of the game. Even Legend of Zelda the original had some really cryptic, but fun quotes like it's dangerous to go alone. I really enjoy cryptic quotes that are hard to decipher. It makes the game more interesting. I also don't like being told directly what to do. I like being given a general idea and then I decide myself what to do.
You know, I thought when I was writing this thread..it may get a page or two then fade off into the recesses of the forum. I am really surprised it's made it to 55 pages.
Sadly however, probably over half of these pages are bickering by two sides that just will not see eye to eye.
So please...if you have constructive things to add to the original purpose of the post, or have other ideas to add, or features from the older MMORPG's you'd like to see incorporated, or even old ideas altered in a way to keep them feeling the way they did, but enhanced...feel free to add it here and simply ignore any of those that seem here to just derail the thread further.
Resist further arguments with them, or simply block them.
Otherwise, I just wish a mod would lock the thread if it's going to continue.
You know, I thought when I was writing this thread..it may get a page or two then fade off into the recesses of the forum. I am really surprised it's made it to 55 pages.
Sadly however, probably over half of these pages are bickering by two sides that just will not see eye to eye.
So please...if you have constructive things to add to the original purpose of the post, or have other ideas to add, or features from the older MMORPG's you'd like to see incorporated, or even old ideas altered in a way to keep them feeling the way they did, but enhanced...feel free to add it here and simply ignore any of those that seem here to just derail the thread further.
Resist further arguments with them, or simply block them.
Otherwise, I just wish a mod would lock the thread.
You're original post is quality information that developers need to know and hear. There are very few true mmorpg's being made and everyone complains that the genre is dieing.
You know, I thought when I was writing this thread..it may get a page or two then fade off into the recesses of the forum. I am really surprised it's made it to 55 pages.
Sadly however, probably over half of these pages are bickering by two sides that just will not see eye to eye.
So please...if you have constructive things to add to the original purpose of the post, or have other ideas to add, or features from the older MMORPG's you'd like to see incorporated, or even old ideas altered in a way to keep them feeling the way they did, but enhanced...feel free to add it here and simply ignore any of those that seem here to just derail the thread further.
Resist further arguments with them, or simply block them.
Otherwise, I just wish a mod would lock the thread.
You're original post is quality information that developers need to know and hear. There are very few true mmorpg's being made and everyone complains that the genre is dieing.
I appreciate your nod of approval. However, reading through this post, there seems to be a few that think it is not dying and is just fine as is. That's there opinion anyways, and they are entitled to it.
But if some here are just going to clearly...well, you know. Again, ignore it or block them.
Travel is not a time sink. It is part of an adventure. You don't seem to understand that. Exploring is fun. As I mentioned before that is part of why people explored the world and expanded. If travel was thought of as a time sink then no one would travel anywhere. Everyone would just sit in the same place. Regardless of this I don't see how time is so precious to so many they can't just enjoy the experience. It's really amazing that anyone is enjoying games if they can't relax enough to be happy without getting their loot or level fix for the day. As I've mentioned at nauseam I consider the current day mechanics the true time sink. There are no complex puzzles in MMOs that you mention. The dungeons in EQ were more complex then what you see in MMOs today. The only thing you really do is combat and that's it. To me that is a time sink. You jump in, don't really have a meaningful fun experience in any way and you jump out. You might as well just not play at all. I know you are just going to repeat how everything is just a time sink and how you need to be lead right to the supposed fun. This is in essence a futile argument that will never end as you will just repeat the same thing and ignore what I said. Instead I'll just post a few definitions of words for you.
Adventure
engage in hazardous and exciting activity, especially the exploration of unknown territory.
So basically most of these MMOs that have a GPS can not claim to have any adventures or be adventure games because there is no exploration.
Exploration
The act of traveling through in or through or through an unfamiliar are in order to learn about it.
Travel is a timesink. Did you pay attention to no part of my last post? The primary source of fun for players is based in decision-making and travel is a high-duration activity with almost no decisions.
It's normal for people to want to spend their time wisely, so yes time is too precious to waste on non-gameplay.
You definitely do have meaningful experiences in the better MMORPGs. All of your actions and decisions reveal patterns that you can optimize against, and improve your skill at the game. You're constantly immersed in this gameplay, and it provides plenty of practice to become better at it, and if you fail to put effort into mastering it then you won't be able to beat a game's stronger challenges (and again, yes those stronger challenges should exist at all tiers of progression, not just at endgame.)
Modern MMORPGs definitely involve exploration of unknown territory. A GPS doesn't magically cause the player to know what they're going to encounter. It's all still unknown. It's still exploration. And I get way more adventure in a WOW dungeon or raid than I ever got in AC/AO/DAOC -- interesting hazards and excitement vs. a whole lot of empty running to get back to the drudgery of mindlessly grinding the same too-simple mobs for hours.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
To go back a little on the original discussion. I do wonder how much each of our perceptions of EQ was colored by when we started the game, how we were introduced to it, and which class(s) / spheres we focused on.
I started during Velious, so had the benefit of a well established economy / high-end player base. I did not have to camp and wait in line for the items I wanted. I bought them for years. It was not easy, and took a lot of focus to make the kind of cash people were asking for. But it got me well geared. Just took a lot of patience for people and haggling. Also I was on a server where inflation was out of control, so I had to integrate myself into the economy first.
I was introduced by a friend who played in the same room as myself. We started new accounts and characters together. He guided me and we duo'd and grouped together through dungeons, camps, etc. He was always about showing me new places and getting us to experience new things. It was a fucking blast. We played like heroin addicts for a solid couple of months. Like unhealthy amounts of playing.
Took some experimentation but landed on him playing a ranger, myself a druid. I did do the runs from Qeynos->Freeport, and did do the difficult runs to most everywhere on the landscape. But eventually, as a druid, was given a means to run fast, and port often. So my perceptions of travel are probably highly skewed. I had a lucrative ability to port people and I ported So many people. Never charged or asked for a gold piece, went out of my way to help people, and it paid off. This had the side effect of exposing me to auctions regularly, so with the cash I got from ports I could play the market prices to expand it.
Some people think this is stupid, how could you enjoy being a taxi driver and property flipper? Well I was pretty low level during this phase. This is how I met people, got groups, and made in game friendships in the beginning. You have to understand, druids were a great solo class sure, but damn you had to prove yourself to people if you wanted to keep grouping up.
I'm trying to shorten this post up because there is a lot to say, but I was there during the 2001-2004 boom, and I probably played a very different game in the beginning compared to someone who was say a Rogue or Warrior in 1999. So it goes back to the question of context. I liked the fact we could all have very different experiences and also share many of the same challenges.
Travel is not a time sink. It is part of an adventure. You don't seem to understand that. Exploring is fun. As I mentioned before that is part of why people explored the world and expanded. If travel was thought of as a time sink then no one would travel anywhere. Everyone would just sit in the same place. Regardless of this I don't see how time is so precious to so many they can't just enjoy the experience. It's really amazing that anyone is enjoying games if they can't relax enough to be happy without getting their loot or level fix for the day. As I've mentioned at nauseam I consider the current day mechanics the true time sink. There are no complex puzzles in MMOs that you mention. The dungeons in EQ were more complex then what you see in MMOs today. The only thing you really do is combat and that's it. To me that is a time sink. You jump in, don't really have a meaningful fun experience in any way and you jump out. You might as well just not play at all. I know you are just going to repeat how everything is just a time sink and how you need to be lead right to the supposed fun. This is in essence a futile argument that will never end as you will just repeat the same thing and ignore what I said. Instead I'll just post a few definitions of words for you.
Adventure
engage in hazardous and exciting activity, especially the exploration of unknown territory.
So basically most of these MMOs that have a GPS can not claim to have any adventures or be adventure games because there is no exploration.
Exploration
The act of traveling through in or through or through an unfamiliar are in order to learn about it.
Travel is a timesink. Did you pay attention to no part of my last post? The primary source of fun for players is based in decision-making and travel is a high-duration activity with almost no decisions.
It's normal for people to want to spend their time wisely, so yes time is too precious to waste on non-gameplay.
You definitely do have meaningful experiences in the better MMORPGs. All of your actions and decisions reveal patterns that you can optimize against, and improve your skill at the game. You're constantly immersed in this gameplay, and it provides plenty of practice to become better at it, and if you fail to put effort into mastering it then you won't be able to beat a game's stronger challenges (and again, yes those stronger challenges should exist at all tiers of progression, not just at endgame.)
Modern MMORPGs definitely involve exploration of unknown territory. A GPS doesn't magically cause the player to know what they're going to encounter. It's all still unknown. It's still exploration. And I get way more adventure in a WOW dungeon or raid than I ever got in AC/AO/DAOC -- interesting hazards and excitement vs. a whole lot of empty running to get back to the drudgery of mindlessly grinding the same too-simple mobs for hours.
If you are a frenetic, driven, type A personality then travel may well be an unwanted time sink. For others they find fun in the journey and hope the game provides enough variability that this time they will meet something new on the road. Even if they do not it is a time to chat socialize, perhaps provide assistance. Always remembering it is better to travel hopefully than arrive.
You see the game as competition and conflict. Others look for interaction and whimsy. One approach is not better than the other they are just different, just as people are different.
As for GPS, a technology that has only existed in the real world since the 1970's really has no place in a high fantasy game, but would be more than OK in a SciFi themed game.
Travel is not a time sink. It is part of an adventure. You don't seem to understand that. Exploring is fun. As I mentioned before that is part of why people explored the world and expanded. If travel was thought of as a time sink then no one would travel anywhere. Everyone would just sit in the same place. Regardless of this I don't see how time is so precious to so many they can't just enjoy the experience. It's really amazing that anyone is enjoying games if they can't relax enough to be happy without getting their loot or level fix for the day. As I've mentioned at nauseam I consider the current day mechanics the true time sink. There are no complex puzzles in MMOs that you mention. The dungeons in EQ were more complex then what you see in MMOs today. The only thing you really do is combat and that's it. To me that is a time sink. You jump in, don't really have a meaningful fun experience in any way and you jump out. You might as well just not play at all. I know you are just going to repeat how everything is just a time sink and how you need to be lead right to the supposed fun. This is in essence a futile argument that will never end as you will just repeat the same thing and ignore what I said. Instead I'll just post a few definitions of words for you.
Adventure
engage in hazardous and exciting activity, especially the exploration of unknown territory.
So basically most of these MMOs that have a GPS can not claim to have any adventures or be adventure games because there is no exploration.
Exploration
The act of traveling through in or through or through an unfamiliar are in order to learn about it.
Travel is a timesink. Did you pay attention to no part of my last post? The primary source of fun for players is based in decision-making and travel is a high-duration activity with almost no decisions.
It's normal for people to want to spend their time wisely, so yes time is too precious to waste on non-gameplay.
You definitely do have meaningful experiences in the better MMORPGs. All of your actions and decisions reveal patterns that you can optimize against, and improve your skill at the game. You're constantly immersed in this gameplay, and it provides plenty of practice to become better at it, and if you fail to put effort into mastering it then you won't be able to beat a game's stronger challenges (and again, yes those stronger challenges should exist at all tiers of progression, not just at endgame.)
Modern MMORPGs definitely involve exploration of unknown territory. A GPS doesn't magically cause the player to know what they're going to encounter. It's all still unknown. It's still exploration. And I get way more adventure in a WOW dungeon or raid than I ever got in AC/AO/DAOC -- interesting hazards and excitement vs. a whole lot of empty running to get back to the drudgery of mindlessly grinding the same too-simple mobs for hours.
I have played modern MMOs and am not immersed in them at all. I follow a GPS around all day which takes me from quest hub to quest hub. There is zero chance of failure. If you do encounter something along the way it likely is easy to kill or doesn't agro you at all. There is likely nothing to the encounter you could consider to be fun and immersive.
If you are following a GPS and have a map you are not really exploring IMO. Especially when everything is setup in a linear fashion the way it is with mobs in each zone all about the same level and difficulty.
I've already repeated this over and over again. You keep repeating the same thing over and over again.
I'll again that travel is not a time sync any more then combat. Combat is so easy in the solo portion of these games these days it is impossible to fail. There were a lot more random encounters in old games because the mobs actually wandered around the zones and were of many different levels and abilities. Traveling was a fairly dangerous activity even if you stuck to the artificial zone walls. Safe travel from zone walls was a bit of a issue in EQ, but not all zones could be traveled safely by hugging the wall.
You can't seem to rap your head around the fact that exploration and travel without a GPS is exciting. I can tell you why a GPS is leads to non excitement. You are following it around like a robot. The GPS is telling you to go here and there and then to there. A game with true exploration will just give you hints of where to go, but that's it. You will then head off into the wilds not knowing if you are definitely going in the right direction or not. Potentially getting lost is part of adventure. Happening upon something when following a GPS around from quest hub to quest hub is unlikely to turn up anything of interest.
I'm not certain why you think there are any decisions that are deep in current MMOs. I've played a few and found them to be pretty devoid of choice. The best they can offer is an illusion of choice, but basically you are DPS and the game is simply about DPS and getting gear.
Look I obviously disagree with your opinion on what is a waste of time. I reiterate that I think MMOs in their current state are a massive waste of time. They may take less time up, but what you actually do in them is far more of a waste of my time then any time sinks or whatever you want to say were a waste of time in older MMOs and RPGs. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You seem to like the way the experience these games offer. Perhaps one day you will see the flaws in the games you like now that you only see in older MMOs and RPGs. Perhaps you will see there are even bigger flaws in the newer ones.
Travel is a timesink. snip The primary source of fun for players is based in decision-making and travel is a high-duration activity with almost no decisions.
If you don't go online to look up some guide and go on some base-level clues given by the quest dialog then actually yes, where you travel do does involve decision making. As well as navigating the land-scape. More on that below.
Modern MMORPGs definitely involve exploration of unknown territory. A GPS doesn't magically cause the player to know what they're going to encounter.
It completely removes the decision making process. See how this works in the favor of your previous statement? Take out the GPS and travel does become a decision making process.
It's all still unknown. It's still exploration. And I get way more adventure in a WOW dungeon or raid than I ever got in AC/AO/DAOC -- interesting hazards and excitement vs. a whole lot of empty running to get back to the drudgery of mindlessly grinding the same too-simple mobs for hours.
This has less to do with travel and more to do with design. If you ensure that zones are not trivial to travel through, and potentially expose you to previously unknown dangers, hazards, and player characters then this mindless drudgery you speak of is non existent.
But to each their own I suppose. If you live in the mindset that it's all about A->B->C->D in X time which makes it worth it then there is no point in discussing this. There are others that have a mindset of A-->?-->Z when no defined time limit put on it.
What you speak of isn't the same adventure, you have very specific goals in mind and anything that detracts from those goals beyond combat / new mechanics isn't worth it. Hence a sink. The same could be said by anyone else that believes complex mob encounters detract from the adventure and are just another time-sink. I don't believe that. I agree with you both on what makes things exciting.
Weird we can't have more involved travel AND experience new encounters and challenges.
I appreciate your nod of approval. However, reading through this post, there seems to be a few that think it is not dying and is just fine as is. That's there opinion anyways, and they are entitled to it.
But if some here are just going to clearly...well, you know. Again, ignore it or block them.
Remember not to block people simply for disagreeing, as that creates echo chambers. Block should be reserved for people who fail to see logic, reason, or evidence. If you block people for disagreeing, all you get is an endless echo of self-affirmation, and your ideas never receive appropriate criticism, which could make them better.
Hopefully you wanted discussion (as you said in the OP).
I've leveled some pretty valid, logical criticisms against early MMORPGs' mechanics, which pretty clearly illustrate why the genre shifted significantly away from its early stumblings, and ended up some place far more enjoyable to most players.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I've leveled some pretty valid, logical criticisms against early MMORPGs' mechanics, which pretty clearly illustrate why the genre shifted significantly away from its early stumblings, and ended up some place far more enjoyable to most players.
You have been a reasonable voice of discussion here but have a tendency to believe your own biases are those shared by everyone else. There are some pretty marked differences in what each of you two find enjoyable, but rather than discussing it as something you can both inclusively critique as individuals it keeps falling into the context of us versus you, or me versus them.
It gets tiresome to read and reminds me too much of bipartisan political discussions I hear from the public. How about we find how to make certain mechanics more intrinsically valuable for both of you?
I've leveled some pretty valid, logical criticisms against early MMORPGs' mechanics, which pretty clearly illustrate why the genre shifted significantly away from its early stumblings, and ended up some place far more enjoyable to most players.
You have been a reasonable voice of discussion here but have a tendency to believe your own biases are those shared by everyone else. There are some pretty marked differences in what each of you two find enjoyable, but rather than discussing it as something you can both inclusively critique as individuals it keeps falling into the context of us versus you, or me versus them.
It gets tiresome to read and reminds me too much of bipartisan political discussions I hear from the public. How about we find how to make certain mechanics more intrinsically valuable for both of you?
Actually, even though I don't share his taste, he isn't really wrong.
Though he uses the word "stumblings", games have moved away from earlier design decisions and I would bet that "most players" do prefer where they have gone.
I highly doubt, of the few people I know who play video games, that any of them would prefer long leveling times, grind, a penchant for "must have a group" or long travel times among other earlier design decisions.
Of course these are things I like. But I can easily see why others wouldn't.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I appreciate your nod of approval. However, reading through this post, there seems to be a few that think it is not dying and is just fine as is. That's there opinion anyways, and they are entitled to it.
But if some here are just going to clearly...well, you know. Again, ignore it or block them.
Remember not to block people simply for disagreeing, as that creates echo chambers. Block should be reserved for people who fail to see logic, reason, or evidence. If you block people for disagreeing, all you get is an endless echo of self-affirmation, and your ideas never receive appropriate criticism, which could make them better.
Hopefully you wanted discussion (as you said in the OP).
I've leveled some pretty valid, logical criticisms against early MMORPGs' mechanics, which pretty clearly illustrate why the genre shifted significantly away from its early stumblings, and ended up some place far more enjoyable to most players.
By illustrating why the genre shifted from "stumblings", you mean you've pointed outthings that you don't like, but that many players still enjoy, which were replaced by other things that appeal to more people.
What you still seem to be completely unaware of, is that those changes are not better by virtue of how many people like them. To oldschool EQ players, those changes prevent many of us from enjoying mmorpgs at all.
Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with players wanting to see many of these features and mechanics in other games. We don't care if making a game more like Everquest isn't appealing to you. We are glad that there are games you enjoy, perhaps with a little humility and compassion, you might eventually learn to appreciate us have games we enjoy too.
I appreciate your nod of approval. However, reading through this post, there seems to be a few that think it is not dying and is just fine as is. That's there opinion anyways, and they are entitled to it.
But if some here are just going to clearly...well, you know. Again, ignore it or block them.
Remember not to block people simply for disagreeing, as that creates echo chambers. Block should be reserved for people who fail to see logic, reason, or evidence. If you block people for disagreeing, all you get is an endless echo of self-affirmation, and your ideas never receive appropriate criticism, which could make them better.
Hopefully you wanted discussion (as you said in the OP).
I've leveled some pretty valid, logical criticisms against early MMORPGs' mechanics, which pretty clearly illustrate why the genre shifted significantly away from its early stumblings, and ended up some place far more enjoyable to most players.
This was the idea behind the block feature. I can name several in this thread that merit it. Although I won't, because it will just get me band.
Time seems to be an obsession with people these days. It's hard to enjoy anything if you are constantly worried that you are wasting time. The only way to truly enjoy a game is if you can sit back and not think about it being wasted time. In essence games are a waste of time no matter what way you slice it. All entertainment is a waste of time more or less unless you believe that enjoyment is more important then other things in life. I feel blessed to have grown up in a time where people could just relax and play games for many hours without feeling they are wasting time. I never thought I was wasting time playing a game until late in my EQ days. I thought grinding was a waste of my time, but part of that was my fault for playing the game in a way that was condusive to burning out. Namely grinding efficiently/fast as possible to get to max level.
Originally posted by Flyte27 Time seems to be an obsession with people these days. It's hard to enjoy anything if you are constantly worried that you are wasting time. The only way to truly enjoy a game is if you can sit back and not think about it being wasted time. In essence games are a waste of time no matter what way you slice it. All entertainment is a waste of time more or less unless you believe that enjoyment is more important then other things in life. I feel blessed to have grown up in a time where people could just relax and play games for many hours without feeling they are wasting time. I never thought I was wasting time playing a game until late in my EQ days. I thought grinding was a waste of my time, but part of that was my fault for playing the game in a way that was condusive to burning out. Namely grinding efficiently/fast as possible to get to max level.
I had a full time job (Was military), a wife, bills, etc, etc...and still spent loads of time in EQ. It' all about the little goals. If I was able to get a level or two a night, great! If not..meh...I did what I could, as long as I made some progress. Even if it was half a bar of xp I felt satisfied.
I was never in a hurry or felt I had to keep pace with everyone else. I enjoyed the game at my pace. There was always plenty of people around my level to group/interact with no matter what level I was, or how fast or slow I took things.
Seems everyone now feel they HAVE to keep pace to stay competitive. I never felt that way in EQ, or even VG. It was WoW and beyond things started to become very much like the real world. A rat race to be on top.
I was never in a hurry or felt I had to keep pace with everyone else. I enjoyed the game at my pace. There was always plenty of people around my level to group/interact with no matter what level I was, or how fast or slow I took things.
Seems everyone now feel they HAVE to keep pace to stay competitive. I never felt that way in EQ, or even VG. It was WoW and beyond things started to become very much like the real world. A rat race to be on top.
The interesting thing is that particular race to the 'top' was an ever present attitude even in EQ/VG. What made it much more apparent in WoW was the ease of level progression. The game's design intentionally spills everyone into the same level and content (or adjacent to it). Just look at every expansion completely nullifying most top gear from the previous one. There is an reason why WoW seems like it lacks diversity and community because it does. There is no such thing as a community when everyone is the same.
I haven't liked the game since WotLK but you have to hand it to them, they keep the entire community homogenized as much a possible. It's basically socialism played out in a video game. For someone like me, I think it's a terrible idea. But hey here we are. Entitlements here we are! (sigh sorry for political context but it is relevant to my bend here of the discussion)
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Not to me. I think it's too important a part of the core game to give it as an option to turn off or turn on. It would basically be changing the game entirely to have it on or off. One mode would be for adventuring and the other just for killing and looting. Watching other people run from point to point following the GPS while you are exploring wouldn't be much fun and I don't really play games with instances these days.
Changes the game entirely? Doubtful. There's certainly no exploration involved with something as trivial as finding the right NPC to click. I don't find reading a map too hard either, GPS is there just so I'd spend more time playing the game rather than shuffling through its menus.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
This is an argument that is used over and over again against exploration. I just posted why exploration is important. It is a key component of adventure. You don't have adventure without exploration and unknown factors. Adventure is something that most games say they are based around these days. It's impossible to have adventure without these components.
I've already heard the same arguments against just about everything that is not combat and they are poor at best. Basically it's I don't want to waste time. For some reason it is not a waste of time to kill and loot creatures, but it is a waste of time to explore and talk to NPCs? There is some logic missing in this. You could argue that the killing monsters and looting of monsters is far larger waste of time and contributes to a very shallow game.
As I already explained a GPS takes the adventure away because there is no exploration or chance of random encounters. All you do is follow the GPS around all day and kill monsters. To me this is so obviously a play to get to you to feel you are accomplishing something, but it is such a poor and hollow one that I don't really understand how people derive enjoyment from it or feel this is the fun part.
Finding the right NPCs is never trivial. In EQ people often never found the "right" NPCs and there were no "right" NPCs. At any rate it is part of the experience.
Very true, but the point still stands. Having only one focus in a game is not enjoyable and there is no logic to saying killing and looting is more fun then anything else you could do in a game.
To those who say exploration is not fun I would say without exploration you wouldn't have the things you enjoy today. There would be no innovation without exploration. People wouldn't have found new materials or lost cities. People wouldn't have experienced new cultures. People wouldn't have changed. There wouldn't be books and movies about adventures.
In terms of finding the right NPCs to talk to not being fun I'd say all good adventures start with talking to people and seeing what they have to say and if they need help with something. People don't often stand there with an exclamation mark over their heads and part of adventuring is getting talking to people and getting the latest gossip to see what's happening and what you want to do. Some NPCs that don't have quests/tasks might have some of the most interesting/funny things to say.
- Traveller in my group was about interactions and economics.
- D&D was about interactions, with some fighting thrown in. We even built a keep, hired NPCs to run it when we were gone, and planned out fields for farming. You did not?
- Champions (and Fantasy Hero) were about interactions and character building. Through fighting, yes, but also lots of room for other activities. We built a base for our little Super Group.
I would not have played *your* tabletop games if all you did was fight.
Mundane is a subjective term, kind of like "bad" or "good" or even "fun." Remember the "Uncle Owen" debate in SW:G?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Exactly. I played many games like Baldur's gate where NPCs had a good quote or story about something going on somewhere in the world. Even going back so far as old RPGs I played on the Nintendo and Super Nintendo there were funny NPC quotes and also obscure facts that would mention something happening somewhere in the world that might be of interest. Baldur's Gate 2 had a group of Kobolds that appeared out of nowhere in the wilderness. They were actually a rock band that had time traveled from the future. They asked you if you wanted and autograph. There was also the classic tavern where you could pickup tidbits about different things going on in different places. In old final fantasy games like Final Fantasy IV and V or Dragon Quest I remember NPCs almost always had something interesting to say or some cryptic monologue that was hard to decipher about what was going on somewhere. Dragon Warrior VII was like this as well. It added to the mystique of the game. Even Legend of Zelda the original had some really cryptic, but fun quotes like it's dangerous to go alone. I really enjoy cryptic quotes that are hard to decipher. It makes the game more interesting. I also don't like being told directly what to do. I like being given a general idea and then I decide myself what to do.
You know, I thought when I was writing this thread..it may get a page or two then fade off into the recesses of the forum. I am really surprised it's made it to 55 pages.
Sadly however, probably over half of these pages are bickering by two sides that just will not see eye to eye.
So please...if you have constructive things to add to the original purpose of the post, or have other ideas to add, or features from the older MMORPG's you'd like to see incorporated, or even old ideas altered in a way to keep them feeling the way they did, but enhanced...feel free to add it here and simply ignore any of those that seem here to just derail the thread further.
Resist further arguments with them, or simply block them.
Otherwise, I just wish a mod would lock the thread if it's going to continue.
You're original post is quality information that developers need to know and hear. There are very few true mmorpg's being made and everyone complains that the genre is dieing.
I appreciate your nod of approval. However, reading through this post, there seems to be a few that think it is not dying and is just fine as is. That's there opinion anyways, and they are entitled to it.
But if some here are just going to clearly...well, you know. Again, ignore it or block them.
Travel is a timesink. Did you pay attention to no part of my last post? The primary source of fun for players is based in decision-making and travel is a high-duration activity with almost no decisions.
It's normal for people to want to spend their time wisely, so yes time is too precious to waste on non-gameplay.
You definitely do have meaningful experiences in the better MMORPGs. All of your actions and decisions reveal patterns that you can optimize against, and improve your skill at the game. You're constantly immersed in this gameplay, and it provides plenty of practice to become better at it, and if you fail to put effort into mastering it then you won't be able to beat a game's stronger challenges (and again, yes those stronger challenges should exist at all tiers of progression, not just at endgame.)
Modern MMORPGs definitely involve exploration of unknown territory. A GPS doesn't magically cause the player to know what they're going to encounter. It's all still unknown. It's still exploration. And I get way more adventure in a WOW dungeon or raid than I ever got in AC/AO/DAOC -- interesting hazards and excitement vs. a whole lot of empty running to get back to the drudgery of mindlessly grinding the same too-simple mobs for hours.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
To go back a little on the original discussion. I do wonder how much each of our perceptions of EQ was colored by when we started the game, how we were introduced to it, and which class(s) / spheres we focused on.
I started during Velious, so had the benefit of a well established economy / high-end player base. I did not have to camp and wait in line for the items I wanted. I bought them for years. It was not easy, and took a lot of focus to make the kind of cash people were asking for. But it got me well geared. Just took a lot of patience for people and haggling. Also I was on a server where inflation was out of control, so I had to integrate myself into the economy first.
I was introduced by a friend who played in the same room as myself. We started new accounts and characters together. He guided me and we duo'd and grouped together through dungeons, camps, etc. He was always about showing me new places and getting us to experience new things. It was a fucking blast. We played like heroin addicts for a solid couple of months. Like unhealthy amounts of playing.
Took some experimentation but landed on him playing a ranger, myself a druid. I did do the runs from Qeynos->Freeport, and did do the difficult runs to most everywhere on the landscape. But eventually, as a druid, was given a means to run fast, and port often. So my perceptions of travel are probably highly skewed. I had a lucrative ability to port people and I ported So many people. Never charged or asked for a gold piece, went out of my way to help people, and it paid off. This had the side effect of exposing me to auctions regularly, so with the cash I got from ports I could play the market prices to expand it.
Some people think this is stupid, how could you enjoy being a taxi driver and property flipper? Well I was pretty low level during this phase. This is how I met people, got groups, and made in game friendships in the beginning. You have to understand, druids were a great solo class sure, but damn you had to prove yourself to people if you wanted to keep grouping up.
I'm trying to shorten this post up because there is a lot to say, but I was there during the 2001-2004 boom, and I probably played a very different game in the beginning compared to someone who was say a Rogue or Warrior in 1999. So it goes back to the question of context. I liked the fact we could all have very different experiences and also share many of the same challenges.
If you are a frenetic, driven, type A personality then travel may well be an unwanted time sink. For others they find fun in the journey and hope the game provides enough variability that this time they will meet something new on the road. Even if they do not it is a time to chat socialize, perhaps provide assistance. Always remembering it is better to travel hopefully than arrive.
You see the game as competition and conflict. Others look for interaction and whimsy. One approach is not better than the other they are just different, just as people are different.
As for GPS, a technology that has only existed in the real world since the 1970's really has no place in a high fantasy game, but would be more than OK in a SciFi themed game.
I have played modern MMOs and am not immersed in them at all. I follow a GPS around all day which takes me from quest hub to quest hub. There is zero chance of failure. If you do encounter something along the way it likely is easy to kill or doesn't agro you at all. There is likely nothing to the encounter you could consider to be fun and immersive.
If you are following a GPS and have a map you are not really exploring IMO. Especially when everything is setup in a linear fashion the way it is with mobs in each zone all about the same level and difficulty.
I've already repeated this over and over again. You keep repeating the same thing over and over again.
I'll again that travel is not a time sync any more then combat. Combat is so easy in the solo portion of these games these days it is impossible to fail. There were a lot more random encounters in old games because the mobs actually wandered around the zones and were of many different levels and abilities. Traveling was a fairly dangerous activity even if you stuck to the artificial zone walls. Safe travel from zone walls was a bit of a issue in EQ, but not all zones could be traveled safely by hugging the wall.
You can't seem to rap your head around the fact that exploration and travel without a GPS is exciting. I can tell you why a GPS is leads to non excitement. You are following it around like a robot. The GPS is telling you to go here and there and then to there. A game with true exploration will just give you hints of where to go, but that's it. You will then head off into the wilds not knowing if you are definitely going in the right direction or not. Potentially getting lost is part of adventure. Happening upon something when following a GPS around from quest hub to quest hub is unlikely to turn up anything of interest.
I'm not certain why you think there are any decisions that are deep in current MMOs. I've played a few and found them to be pretty devoid of choice. The best they can offer is an illusion of choice, but basically you are DPS and the game is simply about DPS and getting gear.
Look I obviously disagree with your opinion on what is a waste of time. I reiterate that I think MMOs in their current state are a massive waste of time. They may take less time up, but what you actually do in them is far more of a waste of my time then any time sinks or whatever you want to say were a waste of time in older MMOs and RPGs. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You seem to like the way the experience these games offer. Perhaps one day you will see the flaws in the games you like now that you only see in older MMOs and RPGs. Perhaps you will see there are even bigger flaws in the newer ones.
If you don't go online to look up some guide and go on some base-level clues given by the quest dialog then actually yes, where you travel do does involve decision making. As well as navigating the land-scape. More on that below.
It completely removes the decision making process. See how this works in the favor of your previous statement? Take out the GPS and travel does become a decision making process.
This has less to do with travel and more to do with design. If you ensure that zones are not trivial to travel through, and potentially expose you to previously unknown dangers, hazards, and player characters then this mindless drudgery you speak of is non existent.
But to each their own I suppose. If you live in the mindset that it's all about A->B->C->D in X time which makes it worth it then there is no point in discussing this. There are others that have a mindset of A-->?-->Z when no defined time limit put on it.
What you speak of isn't the same adventure, you have very specific goals in mind and anything that detracts from those goals beyond combat / new mechanics isn't worth it. Hence a sink. The same could be said by anyone else that believes complex mob encounters detract from the adventure and are just another time-sink. I don't believe that. I agree with you both on what makes things exciting.
Weird we can't have more involved travel AND experience new encounters and challenges.
Remember not to block people simply for disagreeing, as that creates echo chambers. Block should be reserved for people who fail to see logic, reason, or evidence. If you block people for disagreeing, all you get is an endless echo of self-affirmation, and your ideas never receive appropriate criticism, which could make them better.
Hopefully you wanted discussion (as you said in the OP).
I've leveled some pretty valid, logical criticisms against early MMORPGs' mechanics, which pretty clearly illustrate why the genre shifted significantly away from its early stumblings, and ended up some place far more enjoyable to most players.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You have been a reasonable voice of discussion here but have a tendency to believe your own biases are those shared by everyone else. There are some pretty marked differences in what each of you two find enjoyable, but rather than discussing it as something you can both inclusively critique as individuals it keeps falling into the context of us versus you, or me versus them.
It gets tiresome to read and reminds me too much of bipartisan political discussions I hear from the public. How about we find how to make certain mechanics more intrinsically valuable for both of you?
Actually, even though I don't share his taste, he isn't really wrong.
Though he uses the word "stumblings", games have moved away from earlier design decisions and I would bet that "most players" do prefer where they have gone.
I highly doubt, of the few people I know who play video games, that any of them would prefer long leveling times, grind, a penchant for "must have a group" or long travel times among other earlier design decisions.
Of course these are things I like. But I can easily see why others wouldn't.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
By illustrating why the genre shifted from "stumblings", you mean you've pointed out things that you don't like, but that many players still enjoy, which were replaced by other things that appeal to more people.
What you still seem to be completely unaware of, is that those changes are not better by virtue of how many people like them. To oldschool EQ players, those changes prevent many of us from enjoying mmorpgs at all.
Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with players wanting to see many of these features and mechanics in other games. We don't care if making a game more like Everquest isn't appealing to you. We are glad that there are games you enjoy, perhaps with a little humility and compassion, you might eventually learn to appreciate us have games we enjoy too.
This was the idea behind the block feature. I can name several in this thread that merit it. Although I won't, because it will just get me band.
I had a full time job (Was military), a wife, bills, etc, etc...and still spent loads of time in EQ. It' all about the little goals. If I was able to get a level or two a night, great! If not..meh...I did what I could, as long as I made some progress. Even if it was half a bar of xp I felt satisfied.
I was never in a hurry or felt I had to keep pace with everyone else. I enjoyed the game at my pace. There was always plenty of people around my level to group/interact with no matter what level I was, or how fast or slow I took things.
Seems everyone now feel they HAVE to keep pace to stay competitive. I never felt that way in EQ, or even VG. It was WoW and beyond things started to become very much like the real world. A rat race to be on top.
The interesting thing is that particular race to the 'top' was an ever present attitude even in EQ/VG. What made it much more apparent in WoW was the ease of level progression. The game's design intentionally spills everyone into the same level and content (or adjacent to it). Just look at every expansion completely nullifying most top gear from the previous one. There is an reason why WoW seems like it lacks diversity and community because it does. There is no such thing as a community when everyone is the same.
I haven't liked the game since WotLK but you have to hand it to them, they keep the entire community homogenized as much a possible. It's basically socialism played out in a video game. For someone like me, I think it's a terrible idea. But hey here we are. Entitlements here we are! (sigh sorry for political context but it is relevant to my bend here of the discussion)