Originally posted by Cecropia Always gives me a chuckle. This guy admittedly played EQ for a year, so unless he's a genuine masochist, it clearly wasn't a waste of his time.
I was young then .. it was a total waste of my time. Also .. playing a year != playing for hours and hours everyday.
What? Gaming is a total waste of time, period unless you're getting paid to play. If not than it is keeping you away form doing something productive in real life. I love them just the same.
I totally have to disagree with those of you saying gaming is a waste of time.To me it equates with saying that reading a book or seeing a play or looking at art is a waste of time.If it enriches your life, it is not a waste of time.
Gaming is a "leisure activity", which means "waste of time", unless as Stone_Fountain said, it is your job. So is reading a leisure book (not a textbook or theory book), looking at art, and seeing plays, again unless these are your jobs. These activities are done "when one has the time to do them."
How exactly does playing a video game "enhance one's life?" Gonna drop the "This kid that played <insert FPS game here> saved lives!" card?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Oziius I truly believe there is a bunch of psychological things going on here when we remember these old games. I do it too, so I'm not name calling. But I'll ask you this... EQ1 is alive and well, so why not play it now? I've tried recently as I haven't played it since about 2002 or so. I still don't like it lol.
If you go through this thread, I have answered that question already. Not going to type it all out again. But it's there, and because of that answer is why I make mention of the items missed from older MMORPG's, that I, as well as others I've seen agree here, would like to see reincorporated into MMORPG's, along with a lot of the modern MMORPG features that have improved them (UI's, Combat, Graphics, etc.)
I never played an MMO until WoW, so I haven't really experienced what you have. That said I've been thinking lately that developers have forgotten the most basic reason for the existence of MMORPGs. That reason being to take people out of the real world, and give them an alternate world to live in for a while. Live being the operative word.
Now, I don't think this has to be a themepark vs sandbox thing. The game that gets closest to this for me is in fact a themepark, that being LOTRO.
Nor do I believe it has to be a group vs solo thing. I definitely prefer to solo.
But what I want is to be taken out of the real world and be transported into another world. Yes it should be a world of adventure and excitement, but it should be a world that I can just kind of hang out in too.
One thing however I do believe is that the things I do should be relevant. Crafting for instance. Crafting in most games today is little more than an after thought. When crafting should be something integral to the experience. It should be relevant to both the crafter and to the community. Crafters should be sought after for their goods by the community.
Raids and the like should be for fun, not a gear grind. The whole experience should be for fun, but these days quite often it feels more like work. You're always trying to reach that new goal, and you kind of feel let down when you get there. Instead the goal should be to have a good time.
I never played an MMO until WoW, so I haven't really experienced what you have. That said I've been thinking lately that developers have forgotten the most basic reason for the existence of MMORPGs. That reason being to take people out of the real world, and give them an alternate world to live in for a while. Live being the optimal word.
Now, I don't think this has to be a themepark vs sandbox thing. The game that gets closest to this for me is in fact a themepark, that being LOTRO.
Nor do I believe it has to be a group vs solo thing. I definitely prefer to solo.
But what I want is to be taken out of the real world and be transported into another world. Yes it should be a world of adventure and excitement, but it should be a world that I can just kind of hang out in too.
One thing however I do believe is that the things I do should be relevant. Crafting for instance. Crafting in most games today is little more than an after thought. When crafting should be something integral to the experience. It should be relevant to both the crafter and to the community. Crafters should be sought after for their goods by the community.
Raids and the like should be for fun, not a gear grind. The whole experience should be for fun, but these days quite often it feels more like work. You're always trying to reach that new goal, and you kind of feel let down when you get there. Instead the goal should be to have a good time.
YES! Completely agree.
Crafted items should be better than world drops. It makes crafting worth wild and adds the the servers economy. And crafting should be interactive too. Beyond a window to drop two items and hit "craft". Let the player add materials, mix materials for different effects, etc, etc, etc. Make it interesting.
You left out a couple key bits in your statements there.
That is, I'm assuming you weren't actually trying to speak for everyone, and merely forgot to indicate that you spoke purely for yourself.
And it isn't about "delaying gratification". That's a rather cynical way to characterize it.
It's about making the trip/journey to achieving that gratification - whatever form it comes in - interesting and challenging enough so that when you do finally reach that final objective, and return to turn in the quest, there's actually something to feel gratified about. How long that takes depends on a number of factors.
For me, chasing !s, arrows on a map and objectives that sparkle so it's impossible to miss them robs the experience of any gratification it may have provided otherwise, were I actually given the opportunity to seek out and solve the objective myself, unassisted.
The idea of playing any game is to have fun, to enjoy the whole experience.. not just the payoff. If someone feels the content along the way is just "dragging out the time it takes to get gratification", then I'd say they need to re-evaluate their choice of entertainment. They're kinda missing the point.
This isn't a subjective thing. If a given activity is rated Fun on a scale of Fun-to-Not-Fun, then forcing players to wait an hour for that activity isn't going to magically make it more fun. For anyone.
Fun happens overwhelmingly due to pattern mastery (Koster, 2003) which doesn't happen in the empty non-gameplay between the actual gameplay. So it actually is diluted. For everyone.
Why is delayed gratification cynical? One person uses "instant gratification" in an attempt to be negative, so the only contrasting stance is obviously that that person believes delayed (non-instant) gratification is better. Straightforward and logical.
You can talk about making the journey interesting, but the reality is travel is not interesting in nearly every game. So any idea that makes travel contain as many interesting decisions as regular content is just theoretical (or exists in the handful of non-MMOs which do manage to make travel interesting.)
Seeking out the objective was never a satisfying problem. It's become even more useless nowadays with wikis' prevalence. Basically if a game tried to have finding the quest location be gameplay, what would actually happen is the gameplay would be alt-tabbing, checking the wiki, and alt-tabbing back. Which is obviously not a particularly interesting sort of game.
Nobody's "just enjoying the payoff". They're enjoying the gameplay. You know, the actual gameplay. Not those 2 minutes watching your character's run animation. That's not gameplay. The gameplay is when you have some skills and pressing them in the right order will make you live, and the wrong order will cause you to die (or at least be a lot slower at the task; most quests don't have very good difficulty balancing to threaten players with failure nowadays and that's a legit problem.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Right, but keep in mind some players enjoy feeling immersed in the world while traveling. Talking with companions and/or in guild, feeling the largeness of the world. This is not going to be every player's experience, of course. So your wasted time is some else's immersion experience that they derive pleasure or wonder from. Neither is wrong, they are just different ways of enjoying playing.
Right, but those players can just travel manually.
If a game allows instant travel, then Player A (who just wants gameplay) and Player B (who travels manually for immersion) are both happy.
If a game disallows instant travel, then Player A hates the game and Player B is fine. (Important to note is Player B isn't paying double subscription fees in this game.)
Multiplayer games must be designed in a way where side features aren't allowed to ruin the game. Players should always be able to dive directly into the core features of a game (which for most MMORPGs is combat/dungeons/raids/etc.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
@OP in your first post you mentioned community. Granted I haven't read all the pages yet and if the topic was discussed earlier sry for bringing it up again.
But the reason why the modern MMOs aren't like the old ones is at least imho that the communities are bigger and the percentige of toxic players is higher. Finding a friendly guild nowadays is hard work while *cough* back in the days it was rather easy. If you had 20 players that killed a server in the old MMORPGs today you have 200+ so even if you don't try to you will interact with some of them sooner or later because game worlds didnt grow. I cant speak for EQ or UO because back then my poison was AC but in that world we had space to avoid those few players. Sure one day or the other we came across a loot stealer or queue jumper but it was rare.
To me it seems today everyone would steal loot because "X would do it so why shouldn't I?". Personally I blame the moral degredation of todays society for that. Which means that sociopathic behaviour is the norm. I blame capitalism for that but feel free to flame whatever you think is appropriate.
The current model for MMORPGs is more responsible for the toxicity in the "community" (or lack thereof). Now that MMOs are geared towards children of all ages, you're going to have children of all ages. Not to say that there aren't plenty of adult ass hats out there, but something I noticed over the years was that the maturity level takes a big hits among all players, except for the exceptions.
Beyond just the age thing, now that the vast majority of content can be accomplished solo, there is no motivation to respect others when you don't need them. In Everquest mouthing off at people got you booted from groups and eventually blacklisted. Players that made a bad name for themselves basically couldn't accomplish shit in EQ. They had to either quit or roll another character anonymously. Good old fashion accountability.
Right, but keep in mind some players enjoy feeling immersed in the world while traveling. Talking with companions and/or in guild, feeling the largeness of the world. This is not going to be every player's experience, of course. So your wasted time is some else's immersion experience that they derive pleasure or wonder from. Neither is wrong, they are just different ways of enjoying playing.
Right, but those players can just travel manually.
If a game allows instant travel, then Player A (who just wants gameplay) and Player B (who travels manually for immersion) are both happy.
If a game disallows instant travel, then Player A hates the game and Player B is fine. (Important to note is Player B isn't paying double subscription fees in this game.)
Multiplayer games must be designed in a way where side features aren't allowed to ruin the game. Players should always be able to dive directly into the core features of a game (which for most MMORPGs is combat/dungeons/raids/etc.)
Next your going to suggest that you can have open world dungeons and instanced dungeons. For players who don't want to deal with contested content, they can just get free loot without having to wait or deal with the whole massively multiplayer aspect of the game.
Right, but keep in mind some players enjoy feeling immersed in the world while traveling. Talking with companions and/or in guild, feeling the largeness of the world. This is not going to be every player's experience, of course. So your wasted time is some else's immersion experience that they derive pleasure or wonder from. Neither is wrong, they are just different ways of enjoying playing.
Right, but those players can just travel manually.
If a game allows instant travel, then Player A (who just wants gameplay) and Player B (who travels manually for immersion) are both happy.
If a game disallows instant travel, then Player A hates the game and Player B is fine. (Important to note is Player B isn't paying double subscription fees in this game.)
Multiplayer games must be designed in a way where side features aren't allowed to ruin the game. Players should always be able to dive directly into the core features of a game (which for most MMORPGs is combat/dungeons/raids/etc.)
Next your going to suggest that you can have open world dungeons and instanced dungeons. For players who don't want to deal with contested content, they can just get free loot without having to wait or deal with the whole massively multiplayer aspect of the game.
Is it "free loot" though? Instanced dungeons can be designed to be much harder than open world dungeons. Without scaling, open world dungeons are not hard. Without scaling, it is just a matter of bringing enough friends to make the dungeon easy.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
What he doesn't care to understand (and the reason everyone blocks him) is that people who actually played EQ don't generally regard camping mobs as the worst or weakest aspect of the game. Compared to modern alternatives to camping, I'd take it in a second. The dungeons were huge and dangerous. The challenge and reward of actually getting a rare item from a rare spawn was meaningful and exciting. If some people would rather go into their lobby games and dial-a-dungeon instance with a bunch of strangers who seldom, if ever, communicate with each other because there is generally no reason to, thats their prerogative. For those of us who enjoy contested open world content and the opportunity to meet people and work together or against other players is what made it fun.
That's one of the real issues with Nari. Although I am sometimes in agreement with his point of views, it's the lack of respect for those with opposing point of views that probably make him unpopular/blocked as you'd put it. I dislike lobby games though.
Whether or not he cares to actually discuss things here or just likes to post out of boredom/baiting is totally irrelevant to me.
He's like a guy who goes to a Chinese buffet and doesn't like Chinese food or buffets but man does he like single slices of pizza and you bet everyone there is going to know how much he likes pizza and doesn't care for Chinese. On top of that he thinks single servings are buffet and pizza is Chinese.
I'll never block him because he says some of the most ridiculous, laughable things on this forum.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Multiplayer games must be designed in a way where side features aren't allowed to ruin the game. Players should always be able to dive directly into the core features of a game (which for most MMORPGs is combat/dungeons/raids/etc.)
Seems to me you are quite adverse to the open worlds of old and you coming out as a proponent of instant gratification should come as a surprise, but I guess not.. Your use of absolutes and generalizations speaks volumes too. Never heard of a saying "good things are worth a wait"?
Oh well, businesswise you have been correct for a decade, but I think it could be argued the market is reaching a saturation point and there is significant demand for something different. It is also rather interesting to consider whether or not your insistence on instant gratification can somehow be combined with some core essences of open world design; even if traveling is fast, there are ways to build intercepting mechanisms; even if you can queue to whatever, it is possible to implement the dungeon or w/e as part of open world with free access. On the otherhand, it is often almost impossible to find common ground on topics like risks and loss of anything really..
What he doesn't care to understand (and the reason everyone blocks him) is that people who actually played EQ don't generally regard camping mobs as the worst or weakest aspect of the game. Compared to modern alternatives to camping, I'd take it in a second. The dungeons were huge and dangerous. The challenge and reward of actually getting a rare item from a rare spawn was meaningful and exciting. If some people would rather go into their lobby games and dial-a-dungeon instance with a bunch of strangers who seldom, if ever, communicate with each other because there is generally no reason to, thats their prerogative. For those of us who enjoy contested open world content and the opportunity to meet people and work together or against other players is what made it fun.
That's one of the real issues with Nari. Although I am sometimes in agreement with his point of views, it's the lack of respect for those with opposing point of views that probably make him unpopular/blocked as you'd put it. I dislike lobby games though.
Whether or not he cares to actually discuss things here or just likes to post out of boredom/baiting is totally irrelevant to me.
He's like a guy who goes to a Chinese buffet and doesn't like Chinese food or buffets but man does he like single slices of pizza and you bet everyone there is going to know how much he likes pizza and doesn't care for Chinese. On top of that he thinks single servings are buffet and pizza is Chinese.
I'll never block him because he says some of the most ridiculous, laughable things on this forum.
Right, but keep in mind some players enjoy feeling immersed in the world while traveling. Talking with companions and/or in guild, feeling the largeness of the world. This is not going to be every player's experience, of course. So your wasted time is some else's immersion experience that they derive pleasure or wonder from. Neither is wrong, they are just different ways of enjoying playing.
Right, but those players can just travel manually.
If a game allows instant travel, then Player A (who just wants gameplay) and Player B (who travels manually for immersion) are both happy.
If a game disallows instant travel, then Player A hates the game and Player B is fine. (Important to note is Player B isn't paying double subscription fees in this game.)
Multiplayer games must be designed in a way where side features aren't allowed to ruin the game. Players should always be able to dive directly into the core features of a game (which for most MMORPGs is combat/dungeons/raids/etc.)
Next your going to suggest that you can have open world dungeons and instanced dungeons. For players who don't want to deal with contested content, they can just get free loot without having to wait or deal with the whole massively multiplayer aspect of the game.
Is it "free loot" though? Instanced dungeons can be designed to be much harder than open world dungeons. Without scaling, open world dungeons are not hard. Without scaling, it is just a matter of bringing enough friends to make the dungeon easy.
Yes its possible, but seldom in EQ did you find people zerging dungeon content. Mobs and items were too rare, and there was simply too much to accomplish for most players to sit around outside of a group getting no experience and having to likely wait days to get their turn on a drop.
Never got to play EQ in it's heyday (to busy playing SPRPGs at that point in time). If it really was as great as some of the posts I've read, then I definitely miss out on something.
If you like waiting in line, chatting with strangers, and yelling at people who jump the line to kill the boss, yeah, you missed a lot.
If you were like me, who think that was a waste of my time, you would be clamoring to get that time back.
I would say this is more of a design flaw than anything. Making everyone wait to kill a boss is just "dead air", and in my opinion a bad system. I read that others enjoy the down time for socializing purposes, okay; but might I suggest that this could just as easily be accomplished after the boss battle. Do I have a better mechanic in mind to fix this? No, but then again I'm not being paid to figure these things out either.
But Nar, I gotta say that there is more to MMORPGs than just boss battles. Also, I need to comment on the fact that about half the posters in here just football style dog-piled you. Sheesh, so the guys got strong opinions on gaming, just like most of us reading these forums; no reason to try and gank him for it.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
Never got to play EQ in it's heyday (to busy playing SPRPGs at that point in time). If it really was as great as some of the posts I've read, then I definitely miss out on something. Yes, you did, it was a great social MMO experience, as long as you didn't focus on the few problems EQ did have, like the poster below does..
If you like waiting in line, chatting with strangers, and yelling at people who jump the line to kill the boss, yeah, you missed a lot. The ONLY line jumping I remember were the few cases that people/guilds fought over rare spawns like the cleric epic in Skyfire.. OOPS, that problem was solved by making the boss a "triggered" event.. (NO LINE TO JUMP).. How convenient you forget or left that out Nari..
If you were like me, who think that was a waste of my time, you would be clamoring to get that time back.Yep, chatting with strangers is a waste of time (IN YOUR OPINION).. while some of us loved the social experience it did give us.. I enjoyed the ability to text chat between fights, or have the luxury to tell others in text "Agro Help".. Just because you enjoy combat that is nothing more then hyperactive whack a mole, doesn't mean everyone else should..
I would say this is more of a design flaw than anything. Making everyone wait to kill a boss is just "dead air", and in my opinion a bad system. I read that others enjoy the down time for socializing purposes, okay; but might I suggest that this could just as easily be accomplished after the boss battle. Do I have a better mechanic in mind to fix this? No, but then again I'm not being paid to figure these things out either. IMO, speed and method of combat means everything.. Vanilla EQ combat was slower, which gave us the opportunity to text chat between fights and during fights as well.. There were many of times I needed to communicate to my group members, or even people outside the group.. IMO again, combat should not be SO FAST that you have to devote almost all your time with fingers on combat keys to win or stay alive.. I do agree when Boss fights turn into a loot waiting line, that is a design flaw (unless you are promoting Esport)..
But Nar, I gotta say that there is more to MMORPGs than just boss battles. Also, I need to comment on the fact that about half the posters in here just football style dog-piled you. Sheesh, so the guys got strong opinions on gaming, just like most of us reading these forums; no reason to try and gank him for it.
I seldom focus or play any game "for" the boss fights.. In fact that was the primary reason for leaving WoW.. When the game becomes nothing more then lobby based boss fights, NO THANKS.. If I had my way I would outlaw instancing, and tweak the open world boss fight loot system..
Kinda sad that another thread is just a good games / bad games discussion. Many people have pointed this out in many threads: Good / bad is subjective.
What matters is if the game is "good" as perceived by it's overall target audience. (meaning do they accept it and buy/play it or not).
What anyone far outside the target audience thinks of the game is irrelevant.
Ofcourse he most likely won't like it, it was designed for a totally different group of people who have different preferences. No surprise he hates the product and really not discussion worthy.
The real question is what will this particular audience that likes this kind of game be able to support. Is the segment big enough to support new large budget titles? If yes why hasn't anyone supplied the segment? (no competition in the segment is a big incentive afterall).
Maybe the solution is to accept and promote lower budget titles that are maybe more focussed and have a bit less content, but give you what you want most. (be it open world, slower combat, all the other good oldschool stuff).
And with lower budget I don't mean "dream game of one guy in a basement", I mean smaller but professional indie studios who embrace making a focussed game for a tightly defined audience.
Kinda sad that another thread is just a good games / bad games discussion. Many people have pointed this out in many threads: Good / bad is subjective.
What matters is if the game is "good" as perceived by it's overall target audience. (meaning do they accept it and buy/play it or not).
What anyone far outside the target audience thinks of the game is irrelevant.
Ofcourse he most likely won't like it, it was designed for a totally different group of people who have different preferences. No surprise he hates the product and really not discussion worthy.
The real question is what will this particular audience that likes this kind of game be able to support. Is the segment big enough to support new large budget titles? If yes why hasn't anyone supplied the segment? (no competition in the segment is a big incentive afterall).
Maybe the solution is to accept and promote lower budget titles that are maybe more focussed and have a bit less content, but give you what you want most. (be it open world, slower combat, all the other good oldschool stuff).
And with lower budget I don't mean "dream game of one guy in a basement", I mean smaller but professional indie studios who embrace making a focussed game for a tightly defined audience.
Actually, it began focusing on the items from EQ1 that were liked and are missed, comparing those to current MMORPG models to see the differences and why hey are sought. Also, that seeing them incorporated in a modern model with some of the modern ideas that improved the genre would be great to see. Basically EQ1 redux, with modern improvements.
It's the "usual crowd" that has made it something else. That's why I wish people would ignore them now and get back on track.
I do agree though on the lower budget stuff. It more than likely would have to come from a small indie company. Sure, it wouldn't have everything we wish...at first anyways. Players would have to play it, accept it, and invest into it to improve it via sub fees, etc.
A large AAA company just won't take the risk. They want the for sure money now, not later. So they will go with what they know works and what is popular...which sadly, for now, seems instanced, single player types of games with movie cut scenes that just happen to have other players wandering around.
This isn't a subjective thing. If a given activity is rated Fun on a scale of Fun-to-Not-Fun, then forcing players to wait an hour for that activity isn't going to magically make it more fun. For anyone.
Wrong. 100% wrong.
I know you believe otherwise, Axe, but you do not hold a monopoly on what "fun" is for everyone.
I've played MMORPGs too long, and have seen far too many types of players, who have enjoyed, or disliked, any number of activities, to varying degrees, for various reasons. Some people loved camping rare mobs in FFXI. I mean, they did it constantly. If they were online, they were trying to find out what rare mob had its spawn window opening soon. The more contested the better. Because, they enjoyed the competition of being the one to get the claim/kill.
Yes.. to them... that was fun. To others? It was like watching paint dry. To others, it was fun in small doses. To others, it was something done out of necessity - because they wanted a drop it had, etc. Each of them had their own subjective idea of how fun camping rare mobs was or wasn't, and their level of participation in that activity reflected their feelings about it. For myself, I camped a rare mob maybe 4 times in the 7+ years I played. I just wasn't that interested most of the time because none of those rare drops were necessary to enjoy or do well in the game, and there were other activities I enjoyed more.
Many folks loved doing Dynamis. It was the highlight of their week. I didn't enjoy it at all, so I rarely ever participated. When I did, it was to help out 'cause they needed a few more people. My fun came from helping others out, not the activity itself.
The same goes for open world PvP, leveling up by mob grinding, crafting, harvesting, or doing any other kind of activity that a person may or may not wish to participate in.
The idea of "what is fun", or "how fun something is" is subjective. Period. End of discussion.
Fun happens overwhelmingly due to pattern mastery (Koster, 2003) which doesn't happen in the empty non-gameplay between the actual gameplay. So it actually is diluted. For everyone.
First, I detect weasel word usage when you say "overwhelmingly".
That said... Please provide a link to the full article you pulled that quote from, because I have a feeling you're taking it out of context, and engaging in a bit of confirmation bias.
Fun can be measured for anything you're doing. The down-time between content can be spent having fun while chatting with other players, joking around, etc. To those who enjoy socializing and joking around with fellow players, that is still fun , and it's still happening inside of a game.It's socializing, which is a huge part - or used to be - a huge part of what MMORPGs were. It's one of the cornerstones of a strong community, which older MMOs were known for, and newer MMOs all but completely lack.
Why is delayed gratification cynical? One person uses "instant gratification" in an attempt to be negative, so the only contrasting stance is obviously that that person believes delayed (non-instant) gratification is better. Straightforward and logical.
Seriously? You're playing this game now? The whole "I'll ignore what you actually said, so I can argue with what you didn't say" routine?
Your depiction of "delayed gratification" is cynical. Not the "delayed gratification" itself; I explained how/why it could take time to achieve a goal, and it was nothing to do with how you cynically described it.
You can talk about making the journey interesting, but the reality is travel is not interesting in nearly every game. So any idea that makes travel contain as many interesting decisions as regular content is just theoretical (or exists in the handful of non-MMOs which do manage to make travel interesting.)
And here you go with sweeping generalizations and weasel words again.
What is interesting to one person, may be boring as hell to someone else. Travel can be very fun, for someone who values the potential experiences to be had along the way. I prefer to go places on foot, or by mount if it's a really long distance (20+ minutes away), as much as possible, because I enjoy actually being out in the world, seeing the sights, maybe finding some out of the way places, or seeing something interesting going on. I can enjoy none of those things - in the context of traveling on foot/mount - if I'm just teleporting everywhere. Slower travel can be content in itself, and it can unexpectedly lead to content as well. Yes, that is something I enjoy... Your guffaws and protests notwithstanding. There are plenty of people I've seen and met and known personally in my time playing MMOs who've felt the same.
Do I sometimes prefer fast travel? Sure. Sometimes I'm more interested in "being there" than I am in "getting there", though that's mostly when others are waiting on me and my experience isn't "all about me".
To give it some perspective...
To me, everything and anything I'm doing while in a MMORPG is part of the experience, from character creation to the last time I've logged out. For example, if I'm riding on my chocobo from Ul'dah to Gridania in XIV... that is part of the experience to me. I'm taking in the scenery and music, I'm chatting in LS/GC with friends, I'm seeing what's going on around me... maybe I come across a FATE or two and decide to drop in and participate before continuing on my way. That is all fun to me.
In the decade plus that I've played MMOs, I have had countless experiences and encounters that came about completely by chance because I was traveling by foot/mount, and could not have happened any other way. I've met people I may never have met otherwise, some of whom became really good RL friends - all on the basis of a random chance encounter while running from "point A" to "point B". I could have experienced none of those events if I were just teleporting/fast traveling everywhere.
So, I understand that you may not see the value in slow travel, and may not consider it fun. That's fine. However, you need to open that mind of yours a bit - well, quite a lot actually - and understand that there's a lot you don't know and can not account for, nor judge, in your own view. To dismiss others who disagree out-of-hand, simply because "you don't think it's so" is just ridiculous.
And of course, the subject of "fun" in the context of a MMO goes far beyond just travel. It applies to everything a given title has to offer.
Seeking out the objective was never a satisfying problem. It's become even more useless nowadays with wikis' prevalence. Basically if a game tried to have finding the quest location be gameplay, what would actually happen is the gameplay would be alt-tabbing, checking the wiki, and alt-tabbing back. Which is obviously not a particularly interesting sort of game.
I agree, it's not satisfying to open a Wiki guide and find the solution to an objective in a MMO.
That's why I don't do it, except in very rare situations. I try to solve it myself. If I get completely stuck, I'll ask others I know in-game if they're familiar with it and can provide a clue. If it's not something I need/want to get done right then, I'll set it aside and come back to it later. If I'm just that stuck on it, I will occasionally crack open a guide and look for a clue to get past the step I'm on... then close the browser and proceed to do the rest myself.
Opening a Wiki and looking up the solution to something is a choice. The game doesn't make someone alt-tab out. They choose to do that.
I'm going to guess you're the type who'd be alt-tabbing constantly? If so, well, that's your problem, not the game's.
Don't blame the game for something you have 100% agency over.
Nobody's "just enjoying the payoff". They're enjoying the gameplay. You know, the actual gameplay. Not those 2 minutes watching your character's run animation. That's not gameplay. The gameplay is when you have some skills and pressing them in the right order will make you live, and the wrong order will cause you to die (or at least be a lot slower at the task; most quests don't have very good difficulty balancing to threaten players with failure nowadays and that's a legit problem.)
Again, you're attempting to speak for everyone, and you simply can't.
I already explained how "those two minutes watching your character run" can bring its own form of reward and entertainment, often in ways you could not have encountered otherwise.
Right, but keep in mind some players enjoy feeling immersed in the world while traveling. Talking with companions and/or in guild, feeling the largeness of the world. This is not going to be every player's experience, of course. So your wasted time is some else's immersion experience that they derive pleasure or wonder from. Neither is wrong, they are just different ways of enjoying playing.
Right, but those players can just travel manually.
If a game allows instant travel, then Player A (who just wants gameplay) and Player B (who travels manually for immersion) are both happy.
If a game disallows instant travel, then Player A hates the game and Player B is fine. (Important to note is Player B isn't paying double subscription fees in this game.)
Multiplayer games must be designed in a way where side features aren't allowed to ruin the game. Players should always be able to dive directly into the core features of a game (which for most MMORPGs is combat/dungeons/raids/etc.)
What if you have quests that require visiting different places in the world? Or localized economy where you need to ferry goods around? Players who gets immersed in travelling manually would be at a disadvantage. Player B isn't happy, and if he travels through the world he wont meet as many people along the way plus he has the nagging idea in the back of his mind that he could be doing this more efficiently by porting.
So the real solution is to acknowledge that we have players that value different game play styles. One group wants to get into the loot and combat and does not want anything in their way. The other wants a world, with loot and combat in it, and values the "world-feeling" above all. This is not a "side-feature" to him but possibly the main draw of the game.
Next your going to suggest that you can have open world dungeons and instanced dungeons. For players who don't want to deal with contested content, they can just get free loot without having to wait or deal with the whole massively multiplayer aspect of the game.
Well the general rule of thumb is that other players shouldn't be allowed to ruin the gameplay for others, so yeah instanced dungeons are overwhelmingly better in that regard. Trying to nitpick over it preventing a game from being an MMO is pretty irrelevant next to the dramatically better gameplay of instanced dungeons.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Seems to me you are quite adverse to the open worlds of old and you coming out as a proponent of instant gratification should come as a surprise, but I guess not.. Your use of absolutes and generalizations speaks volumes too. Never heard of a saying "good things are worth a wait"?
Oh well, businesswise you have been correct for a decade, but I think it could be argued the market is reaching a saturation point and there is significant demand for something different. It is also rather interesting to consider whether or not your insistence on instant gratification can somehow be combined with some core essences of open world design; even if traveling is fast, there are ways to build intercepting mechanisms; even if you can queue to whatever, it is possible to implement the dungeon or w/e as part of open world with free access. On the otherhand, it is often almost impossible to find common ground on topics like risks and loss of anything really..
A game will be full of content, and you're not going to experience it all at once, so there will be some waiting. The difference is in whether the waiting is chock-full of interesting, fun things to do, or empty and dull.
Good things worth a wait doesn't excuse bad design. Forced excessive travel is bad design.
In movies, we understand that showing all of the literal travel involved is a waste of the viewer's time. So they use a brief montage to indicate travel. It's abstracted. Because everyone understands that any scene which serve a strong purpose is a waste of time. And that's why excessive travel is bad design. In design anything which doesn't directly serve some purpose is a waste.
There's always demand for something different, but with MMORPGs players seem rather illogical since they basically choose the largest and most unwieldy genre possible to demand something different, when in fact "different" stuff is being made all the time in smaller games. Also, wanting something different while specifically wanting an MMORPG is a bit like wanting your room painted a different color, as long as that color is still white.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Next your going to suggest that you can have open world dungeons and instanced dungeons. For players who don't want to deal with contested content, they can just get free loot without having to wait or deal with the whole massively multiplayer aspect of the game.
Well the general rule of thumb is that other players shouldn't be allowed to ruin the gameplay for others, so yeah instanced dungeons are overwhelmingly better in that regard. Trying to nitpick over it preventing a game from being an MMO is pretty irrelevant next to the dramatically better gameplay of instanced dungeons.
I agree. 100%
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
How exactly does playing a video game "enhance one's life?" Gonna drop the "This kid that played <insert FPS game here> saved lives!" card?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If you go through this thread, I have answered that question already. Not going to type it all out again. But it's there, and because of that answer is why I make mention of the items missed from older MMORPG's, that I, as well as others I've seen agree here, would like to see reincorporated into MMORPG's, along with a lot of the modern MMORPG features that have improved them (UI's, Combat, Graphics, etc.)
I never played an MMO until WoW, so I haven't really experienced what you have. That said I've been thinking lately that developers have forgotten the most basic reason for the existence of MMORPGs. That reason being to take people out of the real world, and give them an alternate world to live in for a while. Live being the operative word.
Now, I don't think this has to be a themepark vs sandbox thing. The game that gets closest to this for me is in fact a themepark, that being LOTRO.
Nor do I believe it has to be a group vs solo thing. I definitely prefer to solo.
But what I want is to be taken out of the real world and be transported into another world. Yes it should be a world of adventure and excitement, but it should be a world that I can just kind of hang out in too.
One thing however I do believe is that the things I do should be relevant. Crafting for instance. Crafting in most games today is little more than an after thought. When crafting should be something integral to the experience. It should be relevant to both the crafter and to the community. Crafters should be sought after for their goods by the community.
Raids and the like should be for fun, not a gear grind. The whole experience should be for fun, but these days quite often it feels more like work. You're always trying to reach that new goal, and you kind of feel let down when you get there. Instead the goal should be to have a good time.
YES! Completely agree.
Crafted items should be better than world drops. It makes crafting worth wild and adds the the servers economy. And crafting should be interactive too. Beyond a window to drop two items and hit "craft". Let the player add materials, mix materials for different effects, etc, etc, etc. Make it interesting.
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It would need more than a re-skin. Even as an EQ vet I say this....in this thread!
- UI revamp
- Complete combat mechanics revamp
This isn't a subjective thing. If a given activity is rated Fun on a scale of Fun-to-Not-Fun, then forcing players to wait an hour for that activity isn't going to magically make it more fun. For anyone.
Fun happens overwhelmingly due to pattern mastery (Koster, 2003) which doesn't happen in the empty non-gameplay between the actual gameplay. So it actually is diluted. For everyone.
Why is delayed gratification cynical? One person uses "instant gratification" in an attempt to be negative, so the only contrasting stance is obviously that that person believes delayed (non-instant) gratification is better. Straightforward and logical.
You can talk about making the journey interesting, but the reality is travel is not interesting in nearly every game. So any idea that makes travel contain as many interesting decisions as regular content is just theoretical (or exists in the handful of non-MMOs which do manage to make travel interesting.)
Seeking out the objective was never a satisfying problem. It's become even more useless nowadays with wikis' prevalence. Basically if a game tried to have finding the quest location be gameplay, what would actually happen is the gameplay would be alt-tabbing, checking the wiki, and alt-tabbing back. Which is obviously not a particularly interesting sort of game.
Nobody's "just enjoying the payoff". They're enjoying the gameplay. You know, the actual gameplay. Not those 2 minutes watching your character's run animation. That's not gameplay. The gameplay is when you have some skills and pressing them in the right order will make you live, and the wrong order will cause you to die (or at least be a lot slower at the task; most quests don't have very good difficulty balancing to threaten players with failure nowadays and that's a legit problem.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The current model for MMORPGs is more responsible for the toxicity in the "community" (or lack thereof). Now that MMOs are geared towards children of all ages, you're going to have children of all ages. Not to say that there aren't plenty of adult ass hats out there, but something I noticed over the years was that the maturity level takes a big hits among all players, except for the exceptions.
Beyond just the age thing, now that the vast majority of content can be accomplished solo, there is no motivation to respect others when you don't need them. In Everquest mouthing off at people got you booted from groups and eventually blacklisted. Players that made a bad name for themselves basically couldn't accomplish shit in EQ. They had to either quit or roll another character anonymously. Good old fashion accountability.
Next your going to suggest that you can have open world dungeons and instanced dungeons. For players who don't want to deal with contested content, they can just get free loot without having to wait or deal with the whole massively multiplayer aspect of the game.
Is it "free loot" though? Instanced dungeons can be designed to be much harder than open world dungeons. Without scaling, open world dungeons are not hard. Without scaling, it is just a matter of bringing enough friends to make the dungeon easy.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
He's like a guy who goes to a Chinese buffet and doesn't like Chinese food or buffets but man does he like single slices of pizza and you bet everyone there is going to know how much he likes pizza and doesn't care for Chinese. On top of that he thinks single servings are buffet and pizza is Chinese.
I'll never block him because he says some of the most ridiculous, laughable things on this forum.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Seems to me you are quite adverse to the open worlds of old and you coming out as a proponent of instant gratification should come as a surprise, but I guess not.. Your use of absolutes and generalizations speaks volumes too. Never heard of a saying "good things are worth a wait"?
Oh well, businesswise you have been correct for a decade, but I think it could be argued the market is reaching a saturation point and there is significant demand for something different. It is also rather interesting to consider whether or not your insistence on instant gratification can somehow be combined with some core essences of open world design; even if traveling is fast, there are ways to build intercepting mechanisms; even if you can queue to whatever, it is possible to implement the dungeon or w/e as part of open world with free access. On the otherhand, it is often almost impossible to find common ground on topics like risks and loss of anything really..
Lol, great analogy.
Yes its possible, but seldom in EQ did you find people zerging dungeon content. Mobs and items were too rare, and there was simply too much to accomplish for most players to sit around outside of a group getting no experience and having to likely wait days to get their turn on a drop.
I would say this is more of a design flaw than anything. Making everyone wait to kill a boss is just "dead air", and in my opinion a bad system. I read that others enjoy the down time for socializing purposes, okay; but might I suggest that this could just as easily be accomplished after the boss battle. Do I have a better mechanic in mind to fix this? No, but then again I'm not being paid to figure these things out either.
But Nar, I gotta say that there is more to MMORPGs than just boss battles. Also, I need to comment on the fact that about half the posters in here just football style dog-piled you. Sheesh, so the guys got strong opinions on gaming, just like most of us reading these forums; no reason to try and gank him for it.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
I seldom focus or play any game "for" the boss fights.. In fact that was the primary reason for leaving WoW.. When the game becomes nothing more then lobby based boss fights, NO THANKS.. If I had my way I would outlaw instancing, and tweak the open world boss fight loot system..
Kinda sad that another thread is just a good games / bad games discussion. Many people have pointed this out in many threads: Good / bad is subjective.
What matters is if the game is "good" as perceived by it's overall target audience. (meaning do they accept it and buy/play it or not).
What anyone far outside the target audience thinks of the game is irrelevant.
Ofcourse he most likely won't like it, it was designed for a totally different group of people who have different preferences. No surprise he hates the product and really not discussion worthy.
The real question is what will this particular audience that likes this kind of game be able to support. Is the segment big enough to support new large budget titles? If yes why hasn't anyone supplied the segment? (no competition in the segment is a big incentive afterall).
Maybe the solution is to accept and promote lower budget titles that are maybe more focussed and have a bit less content, but give you what you want most. (be it open world, slower combat, all the other good oldschool stuff).
And with lower budget I don't mean "dream game of one guy in a basement", I mean smaller but professional indie studios who embrace making a focussed game for a tightly defined audience.
Actually, it began focusing on the items from EQ1 that were liked and are missed, comparing those to current MMORPG models to see the differences and why hey are sought. Also, that seeing them incorporated in a modern model with some of the modern ideas that improved the genre would be great to see. Basically EQ1 redux, with modern improvements.
It's the "usual crowd" that has made it something else. That's why I wish people would ignore them now and get back on track.
I do agree though on the lower budget stuff. It more than likely would have to come from a small indie company. Sure, it wouldn't have everything we wish...at first anyways. Players would have to play it, accept it, and invest into it to improve it via sub fees, etc.
A large AAA company just won't take the risk. They want the for sure money now, not later. So they will go with what they know works and what is popular...which sadly, for now, seems instanced, single player types of games with movie cut scenes that just happen to have other players wandering around.
What if you have quests that require visiting different places in the world? Or localized economy where you need to ferry goods around? Players who gets immersed in travelling manually would be at a disadvantage. Player B isn't happy, and if he travels through the world he wont meet as many people along the way plus he has the nagging idea in the back of his mind that he could be doing this more efficiently by porting.
So the real solution is to acknowledge that we have players that value different game play styles. One group wants to get into the loot and combat and does not want anything in their way. The other wants a world, with loot and combat in it, and values the "world-feeling" above all. This is not a "side-feature" to him but possibly the main draw of the game.
Well the general rule of thumb is that other players shouldn't be allowed to ruin the gameplay for others, so yeah instanced dungeons are overwhelmingly better in that regard. Trying to nitpick over it preventing a game from being an MMO is pretty irrelevant next to the dramatically better gameplay of instanced dungeons.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A game will be full of content, and you're not going to experience it all at once, so there will be some waiting. The difference is in whether the waiting is chock-full of interesting, fun things to do, or empty and dull.
Good things worth a wait doesn't excuse bad design. Forced excessive travel is bad design.
In movies, we understand that showing all of the literal travel involved is a waste of the viewer's time. So they use a brief montage to indicate travel. It's abstracted. Because everyone understands that any scene which serve a strong purpose is a waste of time. And that's why excessive travel is bad design. In design anything which doesn't directly serve some purpose is a waste.
There's always demand for something different, but with MMORPGs players seem rather illogical since they basically choose the largest and most unwieldy genre possible to demand something different, when in fact "different" stuff is being made all the time in smaller games. Also, wanting something different while specifically wanting an MMORPG is a bit like wanting your room painted a different color, as long as that color is still white.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I agree. 100%
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky