The fact that the OP is even an issue is a good sign.
ps. Pantheon is the last hope for mmorpgs.
Not the last hope, but currently the best hope.
Eventually an indie company is going to take all the talk about older MMO's and turn out a polished game that meets the needs of this market segment. Hopefully Pantheon succeeds, and hopefully others follow suit and also succeed.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Originally posted by UWNVME I sometimes get the idea that there's a very loud group on the forum that doesn't realize it themselves, but actually hates MMO's. I've mostly been a lurker all these years, but nowadays, all the negativity and trolling makes me not even want to lurk more than once every few months or so.
It is a very small, and very loud group. The recent MMORPG.com MMO of the Year awards more than proved that when the entire top three was occupied by themepark MMOs.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
The fact that the OP is even an issue is a good sign.
ps. Pantheon is the last hope for mmorpgs.
At least until something better comes along...
Hope if nothing else its successful enough to attract more money to niche games once people see that an MMORPG actually can hold and even increase its playerbase 2 months into launch if you create something that isn't shallow.
No I am here to read the "moaning" and moan myself. It's the viral marketing shills that turn me off to this site. What was, had potential. What could be, keeps me interested. This is the message in the bottle to the industry.
1. All the topics start with a "sudden realization" and people contemplating the whole of the genre in the same way someone may contemplate the meaning life.
Gotta watch out for those born again Gamers....
2. Throw in EQ or some other old school MMO and say that those developers only really cared about their game and developers now only care about your money.
All evidence to the contrary... really? Look at EA, or Trion, Cryptic, PWI... at what point are you not seeing a trend of screw the player worship the wallet?
3. Throw in some "mini" joke like mini maps or mini games
Final Fantasy and many other games have had great success with mini games, i do not understand this vapor comment...
4. Sense of community was way better.
Times change and so do the people, Since the 90's society has taken a huge turn socially, and when you cross generations it becomes even more obvious.. only the ignorant fail to take note.
5. And of course we need to throw in the handholding thing.
Dumbing down or lowering the difficulty of a game happens. WoW, EQ, EQ2, Rift, hell all games face this at some point. but hand holding has become the most recent rage as it seems players cannot think for themselves.
6. Dont fail to mention that in old MMOs you had to no life a game to get to max level.
Those of us who played the older games like vanilla WoW, UO, or EQ know all about the grind... those of us who aimed for 99 in Diablo 2 know the no life symptoms... I heard it from a Lead Designer yesterday..." Gamers expect to have some kind of event every three minutes in a game or they get bored and leave." I dont necessarily agree with this, however I do know players rush through content faster than poop through a goose. example 1.2 years to down illidan in Burning crusade, compared to Lich King a few months.... There is a marked difference in the quality of games as time has progressed.
7. Death penalty of course!
Is there any surprise players want a perma death in a game? Look at the inane Bullcrap going on in todays games, there is no punishment for people screwing around or worse griefing. If you worked your butt off to get that character geared then got stupid and decided to be a griefer or fool and do something absolutely stupid and you die and have to reroll wouldnt that prevent alot of the stupid players from getting anywhere
8. Depth and some random understanding of meaningful choices
Depth and something meaningful... yeah, ok not all of us are socially inept pvp players, there are those of us who like quality story lines not only in the books we read, but the games we play.. Something the MMO market has been severely lacking in btw. and choice... wow how novel... yeah linear quests are everywhere, how about something different? afraid to have to think? oh noes.. effort... how tragic.. youd actually have to think...
9. Throw in insane time sinks.
Dailies and catalog quests arent bad enough? there are actually those who believe we need more time sinks...
10 And of course, lobby gaming! Show utter contempt for anything which is instanced and any mechanics which faciliate group formation.
Some of the best grroups were ones I found while lobbying.. screw random group finders.. those mechanics have uined the social aspect of the MMO's and instances? seriously, whos satisfied with those when we have the tech and capability of creating entire worlds to run around in ... and not flea sized worlds in current games but something like what Citadel of Sorcery is doing, a 900 million kilometer planet that players are free to explore... who cares about instances.. give me a bar and an reason to throw a chair at someone and ill be happy to find a group member out of the survivors... LFG, Raid finder, OQ.. and whatever the hell else there is.. screw that crap, man up and do it yourself, quit being a NEET and get into the social aspect of MMOs or go bag to console RPGs.
Yep im a jerk, and ass, whatever... I have heard it all before, I have seen what games have come and gone.. I hate how the computer tech has slowed in development as the PC game developers got lazy... screw this crap.. I put all my money to Citadel of Sorcery because they seem to get it...
The fact that the OP is even an issue is a good sign.
ps. Pantheon is the last hope for mmorpgs.
At least until something better comes along...
Hope if nothing else its successful enough to attract more money to niche games once people see that an MMORPG actually can hold and even increase its playerbase 2 months into launch if you create something that isn't shallow.
What exactly do you think FFXIV ARR did? It's held its playerbase for over a year and is about to gain even more with their expansion.
And this is all despite the black mark it has for FFXIV 1.0 had on its reputation.
People have different opinions and expressing those different opinions are one of the primary purposes of internet forums. If people sharing opinions bothers you, perhaps you should avoid internet forums. Maybe in the future you can make some clones and then sit around all day with people who only see things like you do but until then, you might want to avoid the rest of the internet.
Thanks for coming by, I truly enjoyed your moaning about why others are wrong for moaning.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Not at all, as a key contributor to the whining and certified Bitter Vet™ this site suits my needs perfectly, in fact these are the only forums I visit (much like my gaming, there can be only one)
Sure, we could use some new material, and maybe if there was actually some worthy new titles far enough along to properly discuss the conversations would be more positive, but right now most of the indies are more promise than practice, and the jury remains out on their eventual success or failure.
Now it's a real shame that MMORPG.com grabs everyone who logs in and forces their browsers to these boring retread threads, but then that's... wait, it doesn't work that way, does it, you have to chose to open a thread and read it right?
Rather than complain about a lack of originality, might be better to create your own threads that are more interesting and positive, but my guess is you can't, there's isn't that much good about this genre to say right now, it's in a pretty sad state of affairs. (when compared to the original vision that some of us thought would be fulfilled)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The ironic thing about this thread is that the very thing that the OP was talking about is being perpetuated here. Just like in all of those other threads.
There are a shit ton of threads and forum types here. All sorts talk about many things. Get over it.
What is the worst post of them all? People whining about people whining. Most do not in fact whine. They are simply chat about topics relevant to themselves. Nobody with an ounce of intelligence should think everyone has the same interests and history in gaming especially on a site that has morphed it's coverage with with the times along with the industry it covers.
And this guy is a spotlight poster?! Strip this dude of the title. He embarrasses himself. Forums are entirely about diversity in conversation and debate. You have no interest? Move on to something else, there is a spectrum of topics through out thousands of threads. This has nothing to do with gaming, nothing to do with mmos ... just someone butt hurt over topics from players who inevitably experience many of the trials and issues we all do when playing games within this genre.
I can tolerate 100% polar opposite opinions than my own. I fully understand that it is a constant challenge to understand someone's background and experience in order to truly realize their position on topics and why they may differ from my own. This thread however ... is a steaming pile of manure spewed out of a self-entitled couch editor and king of internet thought policing.
How many of these type of threads are the on the forums lol?
Oh wait everyone enjoying MMORPG's are playing and not posting on forums. Its impossible to do both because everyone who dislikes an MMORPG doesn't play it.
I guess I could say I'm a bit sick of it, and yeah, those same points over and over again get annoying.
But at the end of the day, they can't seem to find an MMO they're happy with, and this is a forum for discussing MMO's. Where should they go to voice discontent with the genre? Town Hall meetings?
Their opinion deserves to be here just as much as yours or mine.
Honestly, I feel bad for them. Because they seem to think that their happiness will come from a game that ticks all the boxes for all the features they're demanding. And not only do I doubt that someone will make that game for them, but I don't think it will make them happy if someone does. I don't think they really want that old school game back; I think they want that feeling back. That feeling of being a noob and having no idea what's going to happen next. But the thing is, even the most versatile MMO's have a set of rules and systems that you'll learn and eventually master, and that feeling will be gone, again.
I hope I'm wrong. Their finding the game they love means they'll either be off the forum playing, or saying something positive for a change. But I seriously doubt it'll happen.
They can post their feelings in existing threads. In a lot of forums they ask people to search before posting so as to prevent having hundreds of topics which are all the same.
I am not against them expressing their feelings and discussing what they want. They should stick to existing threads though instead of constantly creating new ones which are identical, there is no point to having 1000000000000 threads on the same topic. What's even more hilarious we have 4-5 which are being active right now!! In other forums they usually merge such topics ot keep discussion in one place.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
It's a difficult problem as this is a game forum and this is probably THE place to "intelligently complain" about any game issue.
It does get tiring seeing the same stuff over and over again.
It's almost to the point where we should have one thread dedicated to "hey guys, am I alone in thinking this ...." and then all the subjects that the OP mentions should go under that.
That's exactly what I thought. I don't mind them posting their opinions and feelings, this is a discussion board after all. However I think identical threads should be merged amd kept in one place. In many other forums, they ask you to search before creating new topics and any duplications are closed.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by vandal5627 Moaning and whining is not the problem. The problem is they think they are more intelligent and better than anyone else just because they enjoyed those old mechanics. Telling people they are dumb and are sheeps just because they enjoy what they enjoy. God forbid people enjoy different things from them. Also, you can't disagree with them. When you do they accuse you of denying them what they want. Hyprocrisy at it's best. They can disagree but when people disagree with them it's No No. Pretty comical really.
Nailed it.
I second this so much. The thing that really annoys me is the superiority BS. They think they are better than people who enjoy those mechanics and they often call them sheep and dismiss them as lazy and shallow.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I guess I could say I'm a bit sick of it, and yeah, those same points over and over again get annoying.
But at the end of the day, they can't seem to find an MMO they're happy with, and this is a forum for discussing MMO's. Where should they go to voice discontent with the genre? Town Hall meetings?
Their opinion deserves to be here just as much as yours or mine.
Honestly, I feel bad for them. Because they seem to think that their happiness will come from a game that ticks all the boxes for all the features they're demanding. And not only do I doubt that someone will make that game for them, but I don't think it will make them happy if someone does. I don't think they really want that old school game back; I think they want that feeling back. That feeling of being a noob and having no idea what's going to happen next. But the thing is, even the most versatile MMO's have a set of rules and systems that you'll learn and eventually master, and that feeling will be gone, again.
I hope I'm wrong. Their finding the game they love means they'll either be off the forum playing, or saying something positive for a change. But I seriously doubt it'll happen.
They can post their feelings in existing threads. In a lot of forums they ask people to search before posting so as to prevent having hundreds of topics which are all the same.
I am not against them expressing their feelings and discussing what they want. They should stick to existing threads though instead of constantly creating new ones which are identical, there is no point to having 1000000000000 threads on the same topic. What's even more hilarious we have 4-5 which are being active right now!! In other forums they usually merge such topics ot keep discussion in one place.
I agree with this and I have been saying for a long time that the mods here, or MikeB himself, should just sticky a doom and gloom post and a nostalgia post then delete/lock the rest. Give the unhappy people or people that feel jaded a more permanent home instead of wandering aimlessly from thread to thread saying the same thing. They can have one spot they can all flock to with other like minded. Heck even their own sub-forum like the SWG vets for that very same purpose. Of course I don't have to click on them to read, which I actually don't becuase if you read one you have read them all. However, I'm just saying that out of all the repeated threads that get locked, I'm surprised the doom and gloom ones are allowed an exception.
I guess I could say I'm a bit sick of it, and yeah, those same points over and over again get annoying.
But at the end of the day, they can't seem to find an MMO they're happy with, and this is a forum for discussing MMO's. Where should they go to voice discontent with the genre? Town Hall meetings?
Their opinion deserves to be here just as much as yours or mine.
Honestly, I feel bad for them. Because they seem to think that their happiness will come from a game that ticks all the boxes for all the features they're demanding. And not only do I doubt that someone will make that game for them, but I don't think it will make them happy if someone does. I don't think they really want that old school game back; I think they want that feeling back. That feeling of being a noob and having no idea what's going to happen next. But the thing is, even the most versatile MMO's have a set of rules and systems that you'll learn and eventually master, and that feeling will be gone, again.
I hope I'm wrong. Their finding the game they love means they'll either be off the forum playing, or saying something positive for a change. But I seriously doubt it'll happen.
They can post their feelings in existing threads. In a lot of forums they ask people to search before posting so as to prevent having hundreds of topics which are all the same.
I am not against them expressing their feelings and discussing what they want. They should stick to existing threads though instead of constantly creating new ones which are identical, there is no point to having 1000000000000 threads on the same topic. What's even more hilarious we have 4-5 which are being active right now!! In other forums they usually merge such topics ot keep discussion in one place.
I agree with this and I have been saying for a long time that the mods here, or MikeB himself, should just sticky a doom and gloom post and a nostalgia post then delete/lock the rest. Give the unhappy people or people that feel jaded a more permanent home instead of wandering aimlessly from thread to thread saying the same thing. They can have one spot they can all flock to with other like minded. Heck even their own sub-forum like the SWG vets for that very same purpose. Of course I don't have to click on them to read, which I actually don't becuase if you read one you have read them all. However, I'm just saying that out of all the repeated threads that get locked, I'm surprised the doom and gloom ones are allowed an exception.
Probably because no one would take on the forum without them. If they do it would probably some generic talk about game profits instead of talk about the actual game. As pointed out before the games now are pretty simple and don't require asking for help in most cases. I bet the doom and gloom posts bring more traffic to the site then any other post. I guess it is just like the how MMOs have gone after the mass market for the money. The message board developers go after what is best for them.
Comments
It would make for a much shorter list and still be controversial.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
At least until something better comes along...
We can have some pretty wasted nights play drinking games to this phrase...
Not the last hope, but currently the best hope.
Eventually an indie company is going to take all the talk about older MMO's and turn out a polished game that meets the needs of this market segment. Hopefully Pantheon succeeds, and hopefully others follow suit and also succeed.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
It is a very small, and very loud group. The recent MMORPG.com MMO of the Year awards more than proved that when the entire top three was occupied by themepark MMOs.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Hope if nothing else its successful enough to attract more money to niche games once people see that an MMORPG actually can hold and even increase its playerbase 2 months into launch if you create something that isn't shallow.
No I am here to read the "moaning" and moan myself. It's the viral marketing shills that turn me off to this site. What was, had potential. What could be, keeps me interested. This is the message in the bottle to the industry.
1. All the topics start with a "sudden realization" and people contemplating the whole of the genre in the same way someone may contemplate the meaning life.
Gotta watch out for those born again Gamers....
2. Throw in EQ or some other old school MMO and say that those developers only really cared about their game and developers now only care about your money.
All evidence to the contrary... really? Look at EA, or Trion, Cryptic, PWI... at what point are you not seeing a trend of screw the player worship the wallet?
3. Throw in some "mini" joke like mini maps or mini games
Final Fantasy and many other games have had great success with mini games, i do not understand this vapor comment...
4. Sense of community was way better.
Times change and so do the people, Since the 90's society has taken a huge turn socially, and when you cross generations it becomes even more obvious.. only the ignorant fail to take note.
5. And of course we need to throw in the handholding thing.
Dumbing down or lowering the difficulty of a game happens. WoW, EQ, EQ2, Rift, hell all games face this at some point. but hand holding has become the most recent rage as it seems players cannot think for themselves.
6. Dont fail to mention that in old MMOs you had to no life a game to get to max level.
Those of us who played the older games like vanilla WoW, UO, or EQ know all about the grind... those of us who aimed for 99 in Diablo 2 know the no life symptoms... I heard it from a Lead Designer yesterday..." Gamers expect to have some kind of event every three minutes in a game or they get bored and leave." I dont necessarily agree with this, however I do know players rush through content faster than poop through a goose. example 1.2 years to down illidan in Burning crusade, compared to Lich King a few months.... There is a marked difference in the quality of games as time has progressed.
7. Death penalty of course!
Is there any surprise players want a perma death in a game? Look at the inane Bullcrap going on in todays games, there is no punishment for people screwing around or worse griefing. If you worked your butt off to get that character geared then got stupid and decided to be a griefer or fool and do something absolutely stupid and you die and have to reroll wouldnt that prevent alot of the stupid players from getting anywhere
8. Depth and some random understanding of meaningful choices
Depth and something meaningful... yeah, ok not all of us are socially inept pvp players, there are those of us who like quality story lines not only in the books we read, but the games we play.. Something the MMO market has been severely lacking in btw. and choice... wow how novel... yeah linear quests are everywhere, how about something different? afraid to have to think? oh noes.. effort... how tragic.. youd actually have to think...
9. Throw in insane time sinks.
Dailies and catalog quests arent bad enough? there are actually those who believe we need more time sinks...
10 And of course, lobby gaming! Show utter contempt for anything which is instanced and any mechanics which faciliate group formation.
Some of the best grroups were ones I found while lobbying.. screw random group finders.. those mechanics have uined the social aspect of the MMO's and instances? seriously, whos satisfied with those when we have the tech and capability of creating entire worlds to run around in ... and not flea sized worlds in current games but something like what Citadel of Sorcery is doing, a 900 million kilometer planet that players are free to explore... who cares about instances.. give me a bar and an reason to throw a chair at someone and ill be happy to find a group member out of the survivors... LFG, Raid finder, OQ.. and whatever the hell else there is.. screw that crap, man up and do it yourself, quit being a NEET and get into the social aspect of MMOs or go bag to console RPGs.
Yep im a jerk, and ass, whatever... I have heard it all before, I have seen what games have come and gone.. I hate how the computer tech has slowed in development as the PC game developers got lazy... screw this crap.. I put all my money to Citadel of Sorcery because they seem to get it...
Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT
Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.
Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games
Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery
There is only so much that can be said about a specific topic without getting thread locked by a mod.
What exactly do you think FFXIV ARR did? It's held its playerbase for over a year and is about to gain even more with their expansion.
And this is all despite the black mark it has for FFXIV 1.0 had on its reputation.
Well , after few topics complaint about new MMO , we get one or two topic as this topic. I doubt this will be last one.
Anyway , do this topic count as moaning as well ?
Dear OP,
People have different opinions and expressing those different opinions are one of the primary purposes of internet forums. If people sharing opinions bothers you, perhaps you should avoid internet forums. Maybe in the future you can make some clones and then sit around all day with people who only see things like you do but until then, you might want to avoid the rest of the internet.
Thanks for coming by, I truly enjoyed your moaning about why others are wrong for moaning.
Not at all, as a key contributor to the whining and certified Bitter Vet™ this site suits my needs perfectly, in fact these are the only forums I visit (much like my gaming, there can be only one)
Sure, we could use some new material, and maybe if there was actually some worthy new titles far enough along to properly discuss the conversations would be more positive, but right now most of the indies are more promise than practice, and the jury remains out on their eventual success or failure.
Now it's a real shame that MMORPG.com grabs everyone who logs in and forces their browsers to these boring retread threads, but then that's... wait, it doesn't work that way, does it, you have to chose to open a thread and read it right?
Rather than complain about a lack of originality, might be better to create your own threads that are more interesting and positive, but my guess is you can't, there's isn't that much good about this genre to say right now, it's in a pretty sad state of affairs. (when compared to the original vision that some of us thought would be fulfilled)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Does asking a question in very plain manner in which the poster is not pleased with something?
Did you really make a post moaning about a person moaning about other people moaning?
Don't think so.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
There are a shit ton of threads and forum types here. All sorts talk about many things. Get over it.
What is the worst post of them all? People whining about people whining. Most do not in fact whine. They are simply chat about topics relevant to themselves. Nobody with an ounce of intelligence should think everyone has the same interests and history in gaming especially on a site that has morphed it's coverage with with the times along with the industry it covers.
And this guy is a spotlight poster?! Strip this dude of the title. He embarrasses himself. Forums are entirely about diversity in conversation and debate. You have no interest? Move on to something else, there is a spectrum of topics through out thousands of threads. This has nothing to do with gaming, nothing to do with mmos ... just someone butt hurt over topics from players who inevitably experience many of the trials and issues we all do when playing games within this genre.
I can tolerate 100% polar opposite opinions than my own. I fully understand that it is a constant challenge to understand someone's background and experience in order to truly realize their position on topics and why they may differ from my own. This thread however ... is a steaming pile of manure spewed out of a self-entitled couch editor and king of internet thought policing.
You stay sassy!
How many of these type of threads are the on the forums lol?
Oh wait everyone enjoying MMORPG's are playing and not posting on forums. Its impossible to do both because everyone who dislikes an MMORPG doesn't play it.
They can post their feelings in existing threads. In a lot of forums they ask people to search before posting so as to prevent having hundreds of topics which are all the same.
I am not against them expressing their feelings and discussing what they want. They should stick to existing threads though instead of constantly creating new ones which are identical, there is no point to having 1000000000000 threads on the same topic. What's even more hilarious we have 4-5 which are being active right now!! In other forums they usually merge such topics ot keep discussion in one place.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
That's exactly what I thought. I don't mind them posting their opinions and feelings, this is a discussion board after all. However I think identical threads should be merged amd kept in one place. In many other forums, they ask you to search before creating new topics and any duplications are closed.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I second this so much. The thing that really annoys me is the superiority BS. They think they are better than people who enjoy those mechanics and they often call them sheep and dismiss them as lazy and shallow.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I agree with this and I have been saying for a long time that the mods here, or MikeB himself, should just sticky a doom and gloom post and a nostalgia post then delete/lock the rest. Give the unhappy people or people that feel jaded a more permanent home instead of wandering aimlessly from thread to thread saying the same thing. They can have one spot they can all flock to with other like minded. Heck even their own sub-forum like the SWG vets for that very same purpose. Of course I don't have to click on them to read, which I actually don't becuase if you read one you have read them all. However, I'm just saying that out of all the repeated threads that get locked, I'm surprised the doom and gloom ones are allowed an exception.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Probably because no one would take on the forum without them. If they do it would probably some generic talk about game profits instead of talk about the actual game. As pointed out before the games now are pretty simple and don't require asking for help in most cases. I bet the doom and gloom posts bring more traffic to the site then any other post. I guess it is just like the how MMOs have gone after the mass market for the money. The message board developers go after what is best for them.