Ok, I would like to hear your guys opinion. However I would find it very hard to come back to HZ even if they have improved it as much as they claim.
I wish I could find that testimony from David Allen (Founder of Artifact Entertainment and the guy who dreamt up Horizons original plans) he put out on the net, however I just spent the time from my last post to now trying to find it. However you can check out a lot of what David Allen has done since then and see the aftermath of what life is like for David Allen after David Bowman stabbed him in the back. There are some info at the forums there. oh here is link... http://www.pharaoh-productions.com/ ... Which should clue you in on what happened, but one of the interviews David Allen had with MMORPG.net mind you not .com is no longer there. In there forum they have the link, but it is dead. Maybe someone reading this will have a link to a interview with DA which they can share.
However, only thing I can find to share with you all about what is to be expected from DB (David Bowman) is DA's (David Allen) post on his own forum. You can research it if you like or even ask DA himself and I promise you that he will tell you that this copy of his post I am pasting below is his perception of DB.
The big lesson that I learned at Artifact was trust your gut because it's usually right. I'd say 90% of all gut feelings are correct, but quite often our brain convinces us not to listen to them.
Deep down inside, I knew that an individual working for me was a sneaky malicious scumbag, but my brain told me that I could "fix things". WRONG. Some people are just too far gone - and it's nothing but a waste of time to try and make things right. These people need to be taken care of immediately, because if they aren't, they do nothing but undermine and gather more people like themselves. You see, scumbags work together because they have a very preverse view of ethics and integrity. They believe what they are doing is right, and can justify almost every action with their ego. The sad truth about these people is that the biggest scumbags are usually the least skilled people out there. They lie, deceive and manipulate because they cannot do anything else, and they cannot face the fact that they are sad, untalented, unwanted people. So, they simply manipulate those around them to try and better themselves, telling themselves that they're successful, smart, and capable due to everything they've accomplished through lies, plagarism, and thievery.
And the reason why these people get away with this? BECAUSE WE LET THEM. So many people believe in "looking away" or just "moving on" that nobody is willing to hold people accountable for their actions. This is one reason why the US has turned into the drek that it has - the people empower the manipulators, cheaters, and liars to no end.
Ego and deception are the core of business here in the united states - this is very apparent in the salesmen, but not so apparent at the corporate or executive level because it is so much more refined - but do not be fooled - it is there and stronger than ever.
Having been thrown through the grinder, I now know how to deal with such circumstances. In addition, I now have the corporate and legal knowledge to better protect myself and my company from such takeovers.
With Artifact, I was up against a highly skilled group of investors who set the company up for a takeover from the beginning. I did not know that then, but I sure know that now. Essentially, I had no chance against them with my limited knowledge at that time.
There is no sure fire way to ensure that the people you work with are trustworthy and loyal - trust is built, not given. One must simply do the best with what they have and listen to their gut.
All I can say is act with honor and integrity, and pair that with listening to your gut, and you'll almost always make the right decision.
One of my favorite lines: "And you think you can really win?"
"Every time I say NO." _________________ David Allen Pharaoh Productions, L.L.C. Creators of DOMINION and UNIVERSE!
I wish I could find his testimony. I think if everyone read it HZ would be banned, however maybe not since DA still has 5% invested into HZ. It was a very sad story and the information shared about DB and Turbine even paints a more compelling picture. Makes one wish DB was incarcerated.
Sorry, but following HZ from the beginning and even being a owner of Demise, another game from AE - David Allen. Makes me just sick to see Game dreamer devs get shanked by a business corrupt money hungry POS.
Originally posted by Lepidus This article was based on an interview with David and my experiences in the game itself. It is not however a full out critical review. You will note it is listed under editorial, not review. We are planning to do a new review in the near future. So yes, when I get X number of mobs, that comes from Tulga. When I say that the client performs a lot better than it did at launch - that is me.
I never played Horizons in the first place. I never gave it much thought due to all the bad press and bad things people have said. After reading your article I will probably give it a try this weekend. Am I going to expect x number of mobs or quests? Hell no and anyone that only came away from your article with that information is ignoring the point of the article. I understood the purpose wasn't to claim the game was great. It wasn't to say everything is perfect, but mostly to tell people "give it another shot, you might be suprised". So you did succeed with at least one person.
To everyone that is screaming how much a lie this article is, instead why don't you spend sometime writing up why it's a lie.
Many people were involved in the hostile takeover of Artifact (which the company was set up for by the investors), but nobody betrayed the trust of myself, the gamers, and other people at the company like James Jones. Unfortunately the investors removed my authority as CEO in February of 2001 when I attempted to fire him and they refused to support my decision due to the fact that it could "affect the ability to raise additional capital" if the COO was removed at that time. To them, it was about the position, not the person; a dreadful mistake on their part. I even presented a document that outlined all of James behavior and actions that led up to my decision to fire him that included proof of blatant deception, undermining, insubordination, and more.
Why would they make this choice? Because I would not endorse certain behavior, and I was the biggest liability against change since I was the founder and the one with the vision. James on the other hand was willing to do anything the investors asked.
I was a fool to work with such an individual, and that's where my responsibility is defined, and a terrible lesson learned.
David Bowman was also directly involved as a matter of fact he was the perpetual straw that broke the camels back. When he was hired on as Executive Producer (by myself), he saw an opportunity to come in and either A) team with me and make the original game, or team with James and work to remove me so that he could get complete control of HORIZONS and make his own game, and even get a shot at obtaining a higher position within the company.
Its obvious which choice he made, but in order to accomplish what he did, he chose to engage in deceitful and unethical behavior towards myself and others.
Unfortunately at that time, I was not experienced in identifying malicious behavior and taking care of it properly. Now, I am more the wiser, and can prevent such destructive behavior from destroying any of my future work again. _________________ David Allen Pharaoh Productions, L.L.C. Creators of DOMINION and UNIVERSE!
Maybe I will find the whole story soon. If I do or if others know where. Please give the link. Thanks
Oh and BTW, for sleepyguyftl this is some basic proof why most of us do not believe it when David Bowman says things. I know you havn't been around this game long enough to know. But them quotes from the original founder of Artifact Entertainment should be a good starter. Not including a lot of what others know at face value that David Bowman isn't to be trusted. Tulga's first priority when taking over HZ should have been an agreement to remove DB's association with the game all together. It only hurts the title with his name mentioned.
Well it's nice to see that it still has a chance. Ive played many many MMORPGs and have to say this one had the most promise. Ok, so it took a bad ride. I quite after playing beta and then giving them a chacne live for a few months, but I keep going back. The role play was great, the trade was well thought out and worked as did the crafting. The player towns were great fun once you got them working. The lag, well that is what made me quite - loose that and you have a winning game.
I loved the ongoing invasion and the fact towns were take over....
Awesome. I found it. All please read if you want to know... It is too long to post here and I am sure the Admins would be upset if I had a post that long.
I, myself, and my two sons and my husband along with a guild, that I founded and led for almost 5 years developed and founded for Horizons, devoted ourselves to Horizons thru BETA and thru launch and 6 of us, myself included, stayed as long as we could into September of 2004 before we finally gave up and called it quits. I have a couple of good friends, ex-guildmates, who recently went back to Horizons to give it another try and the reports coming back from them were essentially "NO CHANGE"...not a surprise in light of everything that has happened during Horizons lifetime.
Allow me to explain.....
The game of Horizons, to me and many others dear to me, was nothing but a heartbreaking experience that left us all feeling cheated, swindled, and drained of enthusiasm for gaming itself for sometime after leaving because of the scope of the negative experience we all endured in trying to "hang on" and stay with this game in the face of a multitude of reasons to leave it and move on. There was and is so many aspects of this game Horizons that are lacking compared to all the other MMORPG's out there now, in our opinion it simply isn't worth a player's time...even if it were FREE...even play it. There just isn't anything there to warrant wasting time playingit. Not even on a "trial" basis.
To be fair I WILL mention the three things that DO make Horizons unique compared to the MMORPG competition currently: (1) players can play a dragon that does actually fly and can go thru rites of passage; (2) Player built housing on plots of land a player can actually purchase and develop independently into truly unique areas of the game world itself; and (3) a wonderful innovative crafting system that offers players so much innovation and ability to customize items in terms of stats and to a LIMITED extent appearance and overall a crafting experience that can and does hold a player's interest for long periods of time just because it is so much "fun" to craft because teh interface and crafting system itself is just that uique and interesting to engage in. Players DO enjoy crafting more in Horizons than they do in other most other MMORPG games that have crafting systems in them at least currently....
But this ALL can, and most assuredly WILL, change as other new MMORPG's come out in the not-so-distant future. Up and coming MMORPG competitors such as "Vanguard: Saga of Heroes" will incorporate these same features, the ONLY things that Horizons has done RIGHT, and easily outclass Horizons making it obsolete. I know that Vanguard, for example, is boasting a crafting system that will far surpass most MMORPG's out currently, and, and I am relatively certain that Vanguard's crafting interface and overall crafting system design will AT LEAST match if not totally surpass the crafting system and interface that Horizons currently has. Also, Vanguard and a few other up and coming MMORPG games have announced player designed and built housing as well. The only thing I have not yet heard of as being in the works in any other game is that of players being able to play dragons as a playable race, especially dragons that can fly under player control. This one feature remains Horizon's ONLY "unique" game feature and players whose gaming preference hinges on being able to play an actual dragon have only one game choice available to them in which they can play a dragon and that is Horizons. However, with the rate at which technology is expanding in gaming it is probably only a matter of time before another game surfaces which will also allow playable, flying dragons as well. Until it does, however, players who want only to play a dragon will have their needs best served by playing Horizons.
But for the MAJORITY of MMORPG gamers: almost every other game out right NOW completely outclasses Horizons in almost every area but the 3 mentioned above. In short, as I first stated it would be a monmental waste of time, not to mention money, to even give Horizons a shot. Several close friends I have, who used to be in my Horizons guild and, who have recently revisited Horizons, state there is NOTHING NEW to experience in Horizons currently that warrants even giving this game another chance. For so many people that did play Horizons in BETA or at launch who devoted extensive amounts of time to playing it hoping against hope that it was their "ultimate " MMORPG home, found ONLY utter disappointment and frustration on so many levels that many will NEVER go back. They feel cheated and swindled by all the hopes they once had for this game and what it was to become...but that it never came close to being and NOW they know that it never could have become anything close to what was promised so many times by it's creator, Mr. David Bowman.
Mr. Bowman promised his player base starting in BETA and extending all the way thru launch to this past Fall so many things that never happened or that even came close to happening. It is fairly rare for MMORPG players to revisit games once they have pulled up roots and moved on because of the amount of time and devotion that goes into playing MMORPG games in the first place. To make matters even worse, in the case of a game where people have been repeatedly lied to and promised all kinds of wonderful changes and content by the development staff, it would take nothing short of a miracle to bring players back to such a game under these circumstances. Yet this is how it was and has been for Horizons players over time.
The billing issues alone drove many players away and with good reason. Most who lost money by being double or triple billed did not even seek compensation due to a belief that no compensation would be forthcoming if they did seek it. I also know personally of many players who were inappropriately billed repeatedly and in many cases sought refunds but were denied refunds for one reason or another usually excuses made by Artifact Entertainment as to why their refunds were not warranted despite evidence of clear wrongdoing on Artifact's part. Also, those who did not ask for refunds did not get offered any either: if players did not ask, even though the errors were clearcut and system wide, occuring to MOST of the player base at the same time, Artifact did not ever to my knowlege seek out any of the players to attempt to get them refunds for inappropriate billing. In other words, if Artifact could get away with keeping the money, right or wrong, they did. Most game companies I have personally dealt with have been honest enough and accomadating enough that, when it came to billing issues, they would contact the player and seek to entedn game credit to them if not a cash refund. I have, furthermore heard of several companies where, upon realizing a mistake was made in billing, they notified the player and gave a refund to the player without the player even asking for a refund initially. This is honesty. A BASIC INGEDIENT of a good relationship with a customer. A concept apparently foreign to Artifact Entertainment. Of course one could argue that, because Artifact was going Bankrupt, the last thing they needed to be doing was refunding alot of money to their customers but the customer should never have to pay for the mistakes of a game company. Bankruptcy laws are structured in such a way so as to protect the customer and the creditor from undo loss with such companies. But dishonesty is dishonesty and it is well documented in the Artifact Entertainment Chaper 11 Court documents as to the lack of ethics displayed by Mr. Bowman in dealing with his many creditors. So it is should not be a surprise that similar ethics came into play with Mr. Bowman's dealings with his customers als the gamers themselves.
Lest anyone should consider Artifact Entertainment to be an entity completley separate and apart from Tulga Games: think again. It is also common knowlege to anyone who has followed the Artifact Entertainment Chapter 11 Hearings and corporate buyout situation that Artifact went thru in the process of "selling" Artifact to Tulga, that "Tulga Games" is merely a new corporate name and organization for the old team of Artifact Entertainment. A corporate "switcheroo" that resulted in Artifact getting rid of most of it's outstanding corporate debt without losing control of the game "Horizons" at all: David Bowman is STILL at the helm of the ship which means, in effect, that absolutely nothing has in fact has changed or WILL change. As result of this, many people feel that Mr. Bowman and anything he is associated with is dishonest to the core and many gamers who have been burnt previously by Mr. Bowman or Horizons will not trust enough to even try a "trial" of the game again for fear that they will be burnt again.
The facts remain: the player built buildings in game remain empty (the furniture for these buildings was never added because the game client could not handle rendering it all upon loading) ; the lag during live events with many players and NPC's present in the same zone at the same time makes the game unplayable, slowing the game play to a crawl for many and freezing or crashing the game for others making so called "live events" impossible to run; the fact that crafters can enter into and become proficent at every single craft in the game makes crafting pointless in the end result ; rendering the game economy hopelessly broken and making crafting itself, no matter how much fun it is, pointless because most players in the game end up self-sufficient in all areas of gameplay not needing to buy from or sell to other players, ultimately rendering the game economy pointless as well; and swimming and dungeons have never existed in this game because the game developers, for whatever reasons, have not been able to put collision detection into the game ( which, by the way, is a very simple and basic game function MOST ALL MMORPG's) due to the game client being as weak as it is. Not to mention the obvious fact that the game company does not have the money to work with to keep this game alive indefinately without subscribers. Ultimately, with the new MMORPG games out now and the others coming out in the coming months, it is purely a matter of time before Horizons will be run out of money and close permanently. S why try it now? Chances are good your time invested will be wasted ultimately. Reason enough to move on and not look back.
Finally, I do not persoanlly hold MMORPG.com responsible for writing this article. Mr. Bowman adeptly "spins" lies into false versions of what he calls "truth" and is equally talented at manipulating people into listening to his colorful versions of reality where his game Horizons is concerned. I am sure, Dana, that you are well meaning in writing this article but I must comment about what is said here. You ask why the people would give false numbers etc. RE: the game. I want to suggest that Mr. Bwman clearly has EVERY REASON to lie: he is still "spinning" his falsehoods, trying to keep this game "Horizons" ....HIS game.... long past the point where it should have been allowed to survive in the first place given the lack of quality the game has relative to the competition in the market to begin with. Plain and simply put: Horizons just isn't worth playing at all. Even Mr. Bowman knows this but he still has bills to pay and a family to support as do we all. It is a shame that he doesn't know when "enough is enough" and it is time to stop and walk away. From one who was among the very first group pf BETA testers for this game and one who "sold out" to the hype and supported Horizons to the "nth degree" I realized Last September that it was time to move on and my best advice to others out there now is to do the same. Horizons just isn't worth a second look.
Originally posted by Cosi Bankruptcy laws are structured in such a way so as to protect the customer and the creditor from undo loss with such companies.
Bankruptcy laws in most countries are designed to protect the government and the people going bankrupt. The idea that any bankruptcy law protects the consumer is certainly a novel one, and as for it protecting creditors......well just you watch as the government takes any money still left in a business before the crditors get a look in.
I have to agree that Horizons was rather a waste of time, at first look the game is OK but when you actually sit and play it then there was very little depth or content or pont to it all. This was a shame because it had alot of potential.
A good wife deserves more than half the praise, just as a bad one deserves more than half the blame. - Tacitus
Originally posted by Rudnoc Ok, I would like to hear your guys opinion. However I would find it very hard to come back to HZ even if they have improved it as much as they claim. I wish I could find that testimony from David Allen (Founder of Artifact Entertainment and the guy who dreamt up Horizons original plans) he put out on the net, however I just spent the time from my last post to now trying to find it. However you can check out a lot of what David Allen has done since then and see the aftermath of what life is like for David Allen after David Bowman stabbed him in the back. There are some info at the forums there. oh here is link... http://www.pharaoh-productions.com/ ... Which should clue you in on what happened, but one of the interviews David Allen had with MMORPG.net mind you not .com is no longer there. In there forum they have the link, but it is dead. Maybe someone reading this will have a link to a interview with DA which they can share. However, only thing I can find to share with you all about what is to be expected from DB (David Bowman) is DA's (David Allen) post on his own forum. You can research it if you like or even ask DA himself and I promise you that he will tell you that this copy of his post I am pasting below is his perception of DB. Listed below is a copy of a forum post from David Allen which you can find here >> http://www.pharaoh-productions.com/phpbb/public/viewtopic.php?t=1260 ______________________________________________________________________ The big lesson that I learned at Artifact was trust your gut because it's usually right. I'd say 90% of all gut feelings are correct, but quite often our brain convinces us not to listen to them. Deep down inside, I knew that an individual working for me was a sneaky malicious scumbag, but my brain told me that I could "fix things". WRONG. Some people are just too far gone - and it's nothing but a waste of time to try and make things right. These people need to be taken care of immediately, because if they aren't, they do nothing but undermine and gather more people like themselves. You see, scumbags work together because they have a very preverse view of ethics and integrity. They believe what they are doing is right, and can justify almost every action with their ego. The sad truth about these people is that the biggest scumbags are usually the least skilled people out there. They lie, deceive and manipulate because they cannot do anything else, and they cannot face the fact that they are sad, untalented, unwanted people. So, they simply manipulate those around them to try and better themselves, telling themselves that they're successful, smart, and capable due to everything they've accomplished through lies, plagarism, and thievery. And the reason why these people get away with this? BECAUSE WE LET THEM. So many people believe in "looking away" or just "moving on" that nobody is willing to hold people accountable for their actions. This is one reason why the US has turned into the drek that it has - the people empower the manipulators, cheaters, and liars to no end. Ego and deception are the core of business here in the united states - this is very apparent in the salesmen, but not so apparent at the corporate or executive level because it is so much more refined - but do not be fooled - it is there and stronger than ever. Having been thrown through the grinder, I now know how to deal with such circumstances. In addition, I now have the corporate and legal knowledge to better protect myself and my company from such takeovers. With Artifact, I was up against a highly skilled group of investors who set the company up for a takeover from the beginning. I did not know that then, but I sure know that now. Essentially, I had no chance against them with my limited knowledge at that time. There is no sure fire way to ensure that the people you work with are trustworthy and loyal - trust is built, not given. One must simply do the best with what they have and listen to their gut. All I can say is act with honor and integrity, and pair that with listening to your gut, and you'll almost always make the right decision. One of my favorite lines: "And you think you can really win?" "Every time I say NO." _________________ David Allen Pharaoh Productions, L.L.C. Creators of DOMINION and UNIVERSE! ________________________________________________________________________
I wish I could find his testimony. I think if everyone read it HZ would be banned, however maybe not since DA still has 5% invested into HZ. It was a very sad story and the information shared about DB and Turbine even paints a more compelling picture. Makes one wish DB was incarcerated. Sorry, but following HZ from the beginning and even being a owner of Demise, another game from AE - David Allen. Makes me just sick to see Game dreamer devs get shanked by a business corrupt money hungry POS.
Oh well...the download didnt complete itself and freeze for some reason...and since it is HUGE, I dont care enought to try it again, I mean, damn, this is a HUGE download, I am not even sure what my internet provider give us as a limit to download.
I understand the problems and limits they have for download, but I am not a good understanding potential customer! If it take more then an hour to download, it better work, or at least not been lost and in need to restart from scratch! Damn!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Oh well...the download didnt complete itself and freeze for some reason...and since it is HUGE, I dont care enought to try it again, I mean, damn, this is a HUGE download, I am not even sure what my internet provider give us as a limit to download.
I understand the problems and limits they have for download, but I am not a good understanding potential customer! If it take more then an hour to download, it better work, or at least not been lost and in need to restart from scratch! Damn!
That link has been like that for ages and TulgAE refuses to fix it. They do have a link somewhere else that does work but you would think the company (that is suppose to be so good) could at least get the trial download to work. Sort of says it all about this game.
I also find it amazing that article doesn't even talk about the troubles between GN (EU server) and TulgAE. GN is still working under the original AE contract and TulgAe refuses to help them unless they redo the contract for more cash. If you go to the EU link you will see the cert. is still not fixed and that has been like this for ages also. http://www.europe.istaria.com/ you really must be impressed with this one. Oh by the way this isn't GN's fault it lays right on TulgAE side. Great company I must say, NOT.
Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against. Bruce Lee
Originally posted by D0ZeR This game can only be compared to one other game. That game has been removed from this site for good reasons. I wonder why this one hasn't been?
mmorpg.com is an unbiased website that offers every person who have a mmorpg to show it off to people like us. you are telling everyone that you would only have games up on a list what you believe needs to be shown, based on its a good quality game and they have good customer relations.
it is in fact that limitless horizons, began giving everyone a serious attitude to anyone or place that had anything negative. that is why mmorpg.com removed from the list not based its a poor game or not. horizons doesnt even come close to this, tulga have never gave anyone attitude they have been listening to everyone on how to improve the game.
mr dozer, i have to say that im really tired of your attitude. i have never seen you ever say anything positive about horizons. the developers and even david bowman have been working very hard to make this a good game. mr bowman said it exactly right, it came out too early, they needed more money but couldnt get it, so they had no choice to release it. everyone seems to be excited about horizons turn around, even mmorpg.com is stunned by it, except for you. im personally happy for the developers of horizons on the work they are doing trying to keep horizons alive and perhaps it will do much better in the future.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
I am feeling kinda bored that everytime the talk comes to Horizons someone is coming up with that David Allen thingee.
Yes, we all know about it and regardless of what has happened back then between people this is not what the whole article is about. Same goes for the neverending "they promised us everything and all we got was Horizons as it is now"-attitude.
When can people just go, check out the game and judge about the things they are offered, and nit judging about things someone once posted as a vision?
It was a valid argument back then when HZ was released, but 1+ year after launch it's stupid to still bring up old socks.
back to topic
Still, and this is what makes me angry, too about that editorial. The people again will be disappointed when they really expect 1000+ quests, and 1000+ monsters...
HZ has it's strengths in the three aspects Cosi talked about and in the mature and friendly community. And the graphics do shine in some moments... I advise you all to check out the latest video I made for our guild:
But it still lacks in many aspects. And this is true. The client performance could still be better forefront.
Still... Tulga IS working on the project, and the Devs show themselves more often on the boards again. A lot of player concerns were adressed. So I advise everyone to give it a go.
Originally posted by D0ZeR This game can only be compared to one other game. That game has been removed from this site for good reasons. I wonder why this one hasn't been?
mmorpg.com is an unbiased website that offers every person who have a mmorpg to show it off to people like us. you are telling everyone that you would only have games up on a list what you believe needs to be shown, based on its a good quality game and they have good customer relations.
it is in fact that limitless horizons, began giving everyone a serious attitude to anyone or place that had anything negative. that is why mmorpg.com removed from the list not based its a poor game or not. horizons doesnt even come close to this, tulga have never gave anyone attitude they have been listening to everyone on how to improve the game.
mr dozer, i have to say that im really tired of your attitude. i have never seen you ever say anything positive about horizons. the developers and even david bowman have been working very hard to make this a good game. mr bowman said it exactly right, it came out too early, they needed more money but couldnt get it, so they had no choice to release it. everyone seems to be excited about horizons turn around, even mmorpg.com is stunned by it, except for you. im personally happy for the developers of horizons on the work they are doing trying to keep horizons alive and perhaps it will do much better in the future.
Limitless horizons lied about there game. TulgAE has done the same thing which if you read that article again is exactly what is going on here now with HZ. DB has only worked hard on one thing and that is ripping people off and of course lying to the player base. This game can't even run on its own money. If I am wrong on that one point then have TulgAE show us all there financials and prove it for once that they are making money. But saying that I wonder how many more need to be conned out of money before this sorry excuse for a game goes away for good. Infact I bet the dev's for this game DB excluded are making peanuts next to other developers (coders).
Please show me where they are excited and who? I read on VN boards how this article is full of it, heck even on their own community site they are saying how that article is so full of lies. I see only a very few people that even come close to excited about this game. I must say those are under suspect as who they really are.
Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against. Bruce Lee
To be honest I didn't read all of that drama that was posted nor am I going to. The article had one message, try Horizons. So I'm going to try it. It certainly can't have any less content than Saga of Ryzom and I wasted a year on that.
New content, more stable servers yada yada yada......
What about the fact that David Bowman continually lied to the player base about everything from working storage vaults to transatlantic accounts, I wouldn't trust this guys words anymore than I would let Michael Jackson babysit.
It sounds like the author leaned a lot more on the word of Mr. Bowman than actual in game experience. We know what that is worth. Miracle patch anyone? I notice missing from the review, excuse me editorial, are words like fun, enjoyable or interesting. They seem to stretch the facts in the article about the number of quests, monsters and live events. I'm sure they didn't lie but come on. Most of the live events took place more than six months ago. Even then several of the events didn't work right and required reboots. I guess they call it an editorial because the reviewer doesn't have to spend much time playing the game or looking for issues with the game. Aside from a mention of a client issue, it sounds like the Horizons is the perfect game.
I really don't get this community sometimes, how much sense does it make to attack the author of the article when it was obviously an editorial and not a review. Why would anyone expect the writer to attack a company when it's obviously there job to attempt to stay as neutral as possible, if mmorpg.com staff started attacking every game developer, producer, programer or whatever, how could they ever be expected to form relationship's with these people and then get us the info we need. Gah ! c'mon people, think a little here.
As for Horizons, for myself, I judge myself by the moral standards I set, involve myself with and support. I cannot with good ethical reasoning support a game that has lied, cheated and stolen from players (the very people that supported it for a great deal of time) and is run by a proven crook. I certainly do not wish negative things on those working on the project but I certainly cannot support it myself.
Yes, this article is based 90% on an interview with David.
As I have said before, we are planning a full critical re-review of the game, but those things take time (if you want the author to actually experience the game). This article was intended to take a basic look at what is going on, based on the word of the developers, and a quick look in the game itself. With those two experiences, I felt more than comfortable suggesting people give the free trial a try. I never said give them your money. The developers said the game is finally at the state they wanted it to be. Given the amount of hype and disappointment many, myself included, experienced way back when - that to me indicates it is worth at the least a download and a free trial.
The second phase will be a re-review where we give it a fresh try on a clean slate, but in a critical article.
For future articles, I will be more clear to include where the article comes from. Progress Reports and Editorial marked articles are usually based on interviews and limited play experience. Given I write one a day, you cannot really expect me to spend the necessary time to do a critical review. That is why I typically do not write critical reviews, I cover too many games to invest the time to give them a fair shake.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
you dont know what you are talking about. Have you tried horizons again recently? have anyone on the UV vault tried horizons recently too? People who are still in Horizons would most likely be in support not against so I dont believe you.
the author of the article was sure was pleased with the changes made with Horizons. Tulga games sure have been talking large steps to fix the problems and turn the game around. Ive just scrolled down a few posts on this thread and everyone too seem to be impressed with the changes Tulga games have made to Horizons, all expect for you.
nobody have lied about anything, i was there for a year and start on december 03, and it was obiviously released too early. Bowman was exactly right about that, he also admitted that were lacking funds to continue to develop the game for another year. It takes alot of money to make a game, the $18 million AE got to develop Horizons wasnt obiviously enough. What if AE got another two million, and waited for another year to fix all the problems, bugs and added content. Im sure it would have been a great game. Its really a fact that games now a days could cost as much as a movie. So its not cheap.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
Only way I give this game a try is if they give out a free trial that doesn't require a credit card number. No way am I giving them my CC Info unless and until I've decided to actually buy the game.
I have a friend who played the game up till WOW came out and says it STILL sucks. I'm not giving my CC info out for a trial. Companies need to get it through their heads that we are getting sick of having to give out financial information to TRY their games.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Jd1680a dozer, you dont know what you are talking about. Have you tried horizons again recently? have anyone on the UV vault tried horizons recently too? People who are still in Horizons would most likely be in support not against so I dont believe you. the author of the article was sure was pleased with the changes made with Horizons. Tulga games sure have been talking large steps to fix the problems and turn the game around. Ive just scrolled down a few posts on this thread and everyone too seem to be impressed with the changes Tulga games have made to Horizons, all expect for you. nobody have lied about anything, i was there for a year and start on december 03, and it was obiviously released too early. Bowman was exactly right about that, he also admitted that were lacking funds to continue to develop the game for another year. It takes alot of money to make a game, the $18 million AE got to develop Horizons wasnt obiviously enough. What if AE got another two million, and waited for another year to fix all the problems, bugs and added content. Im sure it would have been a great game. Its really a fact that games now a days could cost as much as a movie. So its not cheap.
Nothing but a new PC engine could help this game and yes I have played it. I still can't understand how anyone can believe anything DB has to say about this game. Look at how many free game times they have tried giving away. Now they are doing this coffee mug and tshirt thing. That clearly shows they are in damage control and attempting to get as many people as they can to get into game. I wouldn't be surprised if Baker hasn't given them and ultimatum to start bring a profit.
I have faith in MMORPG and I can wait for the review and I will bet it will show how the article in question was full of lies.
Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against. Bruce Lee
Comments
Ok, I would like to hear your guys opinion. However I would find it very hard to come back to HZ even if they have improved it as much as they claim.
I wish I could find that testimony from David Allen (Founder of Artifact Entertainment and the guy who dreamt up Horizons original plans) he put out on the net, however I just spent the time from my last post to now trying to find it. However you can check out a lot of what David Allen has done since then and see the aftermath of what life is like for David Allen after David Bowman stabbed him in the back. There are some info at the forums there. oh here is link... http://www.pharaoh-productions.com/ ... Which should clue you in on what happened, but one of the interviews David Allen had with MMORPG.net mind you not .com is no longer there. In there forum they have the link, but it is dead. Maybe someone reading this will have a link to a interview with DA which they can share.
However, only thing I can find to share with you all about what is to be expected from DB (David Bowman) is DA's (David Allen) post on his own forum. You can research it if you like or even ask DA himself and I promise you that he will tell you that this copy of his post I am pasting below is his perception of DB.
Listed below is a copy of a forum post from David Allen which you can find here >> http://www.pharaoh-productions.com/phpbb/public/viewtopic.php?t=1260
______________________________________________________________________
The big lesson that I learned at Artifact was trust your gut because it's usually right. I'd say 90% of all gut feelings are correct, but quite often our brain convinces us not to listen to them.
Deep down inside, I knew that an individual working for me was a sneaky malicious scumbag, but my brain told me that I could "fix things". WRONG. Some people are just too far gone - and it's nothing but a waste of time to try and make things right. These people need to be taken care of immediately, because if they aren't, they do nothing but undermine and gather more people like themselves. You see, scumbags work together because they have a very preverse view of ethics and integrity. They believe what they are doing is right, and can justify almost every action with their ego. The sad truth about these people is that the biggest scumbags are usually the least skilled people out there. They lie, deceive and manipulate because they cannot do anything else, and they cannot face the fact that they are sad, untalented, unwanted people. So, they simply manipulate those around them to try and better themselves, telling themselves that they're successful, smart, and capable due to everything they've accomplished through lies, plagarism, and thievery.
And the reason why these people get away with this? BECAUSE WE LET THEM. So many people believe in "looking away" or just "moving on" that nobody is willing to hold people accountable for their actions. This is one reason why the US has turned into the drek that it has - the people empower the manipulators, cheaters, and liars to no end.
Ego and deception are the core of business here in the united states - this is very apparent in the salesmen, but not so apparent at the corporate or executive level because it is so much more refined - but do not be fooled - it is there and stronger than ever.
Having been thrown through the grinder, I now know how to deal with such circumstances. In addition, I now have the corporate and legal knowledge to better protect myself and my company from such takeovers.
With Artifact, I was up against a highly skilled group of investors who set the company up for a takeover from the beginning. I did not know that then, but I sure know that now. Essentially, I had no chance against them with my limited knowledge at that time.
There is no sure fire way to ensure that the people you work with are trustworthy and loyal - trust is built, not given. One must simply do the best with what they have and listen to their gut.
All I can say is act with honor and integrity, and pair that with listening to your gut, and you'll almost always make the right decision.
One of my favorite lines: "And you think you can really win?"
"Every time I say NO."
_________________
David Allen
Pharaoh Productions, L.L.C.
Creators of DOMINION and UNIVERSE!
________________________________________________________________________
I wish I could find his testimony. I think if everyone read it HZ would be banned, however maybe not since DA still has 5% invested into HZ. It was a very sad story and the information shared about DB and Turbine even paints a more compelling picture. Makes one wish DB was incarcerated.
Sorry, but following HZ from the beginning and even being a owner of Demise, another game from AE - David Allen. Makes me just sick to see Game dreamer devs get shanked by a business corrupt money hungry POS.
OK, here is a bit more detail info about what happened. I found this in the same thread as the previous one. Here is the link... http://www.pharaoh-productions.com/phpbb/public/viewtopic.php?t=1260
And here is the pasted post from David Allen:
________________________________________________________________________
Meep, in direct response to your question.
team with James and work to remove me so that he could get complete control of HORIZONS and make his own game, and even get a shot at obtaining a higher position within the company.
Many people were involved in the hostile takeover of Artifact (which the company was set up for by the investors), but nobody betrayed the trust of myself, the gamers, and other people at the company like James Jones. Unfortunately the investors removed my authority as CEO in February of 2001 when I attempted to fire him and they refused to support my decision due to the fact that it could "affect the ability to raise additional capital" if the COO was removed at that time. To them, it was about the position, not the person; a dreadful mistake on their part. I even presented a document that outlined all of James behavior and actions that led up to my decision to fire him that included proof of blatant deception, undermining, insubordination, and more.
Why would they make this choice? Because I would not endorse certain behavior, and I was the biggest liability against change since I was the founder and the one with the vision. James on the other hand was willing to do anything the investors asked.
I was a fool to work with such an individual, and that's where my responsibility is defined, and a terrible lesson learned.
David Bowman was also directly involved as a matter of fact he was the perpetual straw that broke the camels back. When he was hired on as Executive Producer (by myself), he saw an opportunity to come in and either A) team with me and make the original game, or
Its obvious which choice he made, but in order to accomplish what he did, he chose to engage in deceitful and unethical behavior towards myself and others.
Unfortunately at that time, I was not experienced in identifying malicious behavior and taking care of it properly. Now, I am more the wiser, and can prevent such destructive behavior from destroying any of my future work again.
_________________
David Allen
Pharaoh Productions, L.L.C.
Creators of DOMINION and UNIVERSE!
________________________________________________________________________
Maybe I will find the whole story soon. If I do or if others know where. Please give the link. Thanks
Oh and BTW, for sleepyguyftl this is some basic proof why most of us do not believe it when David Bowman says things. I know you havn't been around this game long enough to know. But them quotes from the original founder of Artifact Entertainment should be a good starter. Not including a lot of what others know at face value that David Bowman isn't to be trusted. Tulga's first priority when taking over HZ should have been an agreement to remove DB's association with the game all together. It only hurts the title with his name mentioned.
Well it's nice to see that it still has a chance. Ive played many many MMORPGs and have to say this one had the most promise. Ok, so it took a bad ride. I quite after playing beta and then giving them a chacne live for a few months, but I keep going back. The role play was great, the trade was well thought out and worked as did the crafting. The player towns were great fun once you got them working. The lag, well that is what made me quite - loose that and you have a winning game.
I loved the ongoing invasion and the fact towns were take over....
Good luck HZ.
Awesome. I found it. All please read if you want to know... It is too long to post here and I am sure the Admins would be upset if I had a post that long.
http://www.gamemethod.com/MPOG/145/a-story-of-artifact-entertainment
Enjoy!!!
On BTW, you need to scroll down to the bottom of the page to see the starting of the story.
Heck, I gave SoE way to many chances, what do I have to lose to try a free trial? Maybe I will like it, maybe not!
So if you see my elite member score drop, you can assume I am enjoying it!
And the nicest part of all this...if I dont like the game I will still blame SoE! I dont know how, but I am sure I can find a way!
How long is suppose to take the download?
It always seem like to long!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
a small playerbase, missing content, and all this nerd drama too?
WHERE DO I SIGN UP???
Games i'm playing right now...
"In short, I thought NGE was a very bad idea" - Raph Koster talking about NGE on his blog at raphkoster.com
Allow me to explain.....
The game of Horizons, to me and many others dear to me, was nothing but a heartbreaking experience that left us all feeling cheated, swindled, and drained of enthusiasm for gaming itself for sometime after leaving because of the scope of the negative experience we all endured in trying to "hang on" and stay with this game in the face of a multitude of reasons to leave it and move on. There was and is so many aspects of this game Horizons that are lacking compared to all the other MMORPG's out there now, in our opinion it simply isn't worth a player's time...even if it were FREE...even play it. There just isn't anything there to warrant wasting time playingit. Not even on a "trial" basis.
To be fair I WILL mention the three things that DO make Horizons unique compared to the MMORPG competition currently: (1) players can play a dragon that does actually fly and can go thru rites of passage; (2) Player built housing on plots of land a player can actually purchase and develop independently into truly unique areas of the game world itself; and (3) a wonderful innovative crafting system that offers players so much innovation and ability to customize items in terms of stats and to a LIMITED extent appearance and overall a crafting experience that can and does hold a player's interest for long periods of time just because it is so much "fun" to craft because teh interface and crafting system itself is just that uique and interesting to engage in. Players DO enjoy crafting more in Horizons than they do in other most other MMORPG games that have crafting systems in them at least currently....
But this ALL can, and most assuredly WILL, change as other new MMORPG's come out in the not-so-distant future. Up and coming MMORPG competitors such as "Vanguard: Saga of Heroes" will incorporate these same features, the ONLY things that Horizons has done RIGHT, and easily outclass Horizons making it obsolete. I know that Vanguard, for example, is boasting a crafting system that will far surpass most MMORPG's out currently, and, and I am relatively certain that Vanguard's crafting interface and overall crafting system design will AT LEAST match if not totally surpass the crafting system and interface that Horizons currently has. Also, Vanguard and a few other up and coming MMORPG games have announced player designed and built housing as well. The only thing I have not yet heard of as being in the works in any other game is that of players being able to play dragons as a playable race, especially dragons that can fly under player control. This one feature remains Horizon's ONLY "unique" game feature and players whose gaming preference hinges on being able to play an actual dragon have only one game choice available to them in which they can play a dragon and that is Horizons. However, with the rate at which technology is expanding in gaming it is probably only a matter of time before another game surfaces which will also allow playable, flying dragons as well. Until it does, however, players who want only to play a dragon will have their needs best served by playing Horizons.
But for the MAJORITY of MMORPG gamers: almost every other game out right NOW completely outclasses Horizons in almost every area but the 3 mentioned above. In short, as I first stated it would be a monmental waste of time, not to mention money, to even give Horizons a shot. Several close friends I have, who used to be in my Horizons guild and, who have recently revisited Horizons, state there is NOTHING NEW to experience in Horizons currently that warrants even giving this game another chance. For so many people that did play Horizons in BETA or at launch who devoted extensive amounts of time to playing it hoping against hope that it was their "ultimate " MMORPG home, found ONLY utter disappointment and frustration on so many levels that many will NEVER go back. They feel cheated and swindled by all the hopes they once had for this game and what it was to become...but that it never came close to being and NOW they know that it never could have become anything close to what was promised so many times by it's creator, Mr. David Bowman.
Mr. Bowman promised his player base starting in BETA and extending all the way thru launch to this past Fall so many things that never happened or that even came close to happening. It is fairly rare for MMORPG players to revisit games once they have pulled up roots and moved on because of the amount of time and devotion that goes into playing MMORPG games in the first place. To make matters even worse, in the case of a game where people have been repeatedly lied to and promised all kinds of wonderful changes and content by the development staff, it would take nothing short of a miracle to bring players back to such a game under these circumstances. Yet this is how it was and has been for Horizons players over time.
The billing issues alone drove many players away and with good reason. Most who lost money by being double or triple billed did not even seek compensation due to a belief that no compensation would be forthcoming if they did seek it. I also know personally of many players who were inappropriately billed repeatedly and in many cases sought refunds but were denied refunds for one reason or another usually excuses made by Artifact Entertainment as to why their refunds were not warranted despite evidence of clear wrongdoing on Artifact's part. Also, those who did not ask for refunds did not get offered any either: if players did not ask, even though the errors were clearcut and system wide, occuring to MOST of the player base at the same time, Artifact did not ever to my knowlege seek out any of the players to attempt to get them refunds for inappropriate billing. In other words, if Artifact could get away with keeping the money, right or wrong, they did. Most game companies I have personally dealt with have been honest enough and accomadating enough that, when it came to billing issues, they would contact the player and seek to entedn game credit to them if not a cash refund. I have, furthermore heard of several companies where, upon realizing a mistake was made in billing, they notified the player and gave a refund to the player without the player even asking for a refund initially. This is honesty. A BASIC INGEDIENT of a good relationship with a customer. A concept apparently foreign to Artifact Entertainment. Of course one could argue that, because Artifact was going Bankrupt, the last thing they needed to be doing was refunding alot of money to their customers but the customer should never have to pay for the mistakes of a game company. Bankruptcy laws are structured in such a way so as to protect the customer and the creditor from undo loss with such companies. But dishonesty is dishonesty and it is well documented in the Artifact Entertainment Chaper 11 Court documents as to the lack of ethics displayed by Mr. Bowman in dealing with his many creditors. So it is should not be a surprise that similar ethics came into play with Mr. Bowman's dealings with his customers als the gamers themselves.
Lest anyone should consider Artifact Entertainment to be an entity completley separate and apart from Tulga Games: think again. It is also common knowlege to anyone who has followed the Artifact Entertainment Chapter 11 Hearings and corporate buyout situation that Artifact went thru in the process of "selling" Artifact to Tulga, that "Tulga Games" is merely a new corporate name and organization for the old team of Artifact Entertainment. A corporate "switcheroo" that resulted in Artifact getting rid of most of it's outstanding corporate debt without losing control of the game "Horizons" at all: David Bowman is STILL at the helm of the ship which means, in effect, that absolutely nothing has in fact has changed or WILL change. As result of this, many people feel that Mr. Bowman and anything he is associated with is dishonest to the core and many gamers who have been burnt previously by Mr. Bowman or Horizons will not trust enough to even try a "trial" of the game again for fear that they will be burnt again.
The facts remain: the player built buildings in game remain empty (the furniture for these buildings was never added because the game client could not handle rendering it all upon loading) ; the lag during live events with many players and NPC's present in the same zone at the same time makes the game unplayable, slowing the game play to a crawl for many and freezing or crashing the game for others making so called "live events" impossible to run; the fact that crafters can enter into and become proficent at every single craft in the game makes crafting pointless in the end result ; rendering the game economy hopelessly broken and making crafting itself, no matter how much fun it is, pointless because most players in the game end up self-sufficient in all areas of gameplay not needing to buy from or sell to other players, ultimately rendering the game economy pointless as well; and swimming and dungeons have never existed in this game because the game developers, for whatever reasons, have not been able to put collision detection into the game ( which, by the way, is a very simple and basic game function MOST ALL MMORPG's) due to the game client being as weak as it is. Not to mention the obvious fact that the game company does not have the money to work with to keep this game alive indefinately without subscribers. Ultimately, with the new MMORPG games out now and the others coming out in the coming months, it is purely a matter of time before Horizons will be run out of money and close permanently. S why try it now? Chances are good your time invested will be wasted ultimately. Reason enough to move on and not look back.
Finally, I do not persoanlly hold MMORPG.com responsible for writing this article. Mr. Bowman adeptly "spins" lies into false versions of what he calls "truth" and is equally talented at manipulating people into listening to his colorful versions of reality where his game Horizons is concerned. I am sure, Dana, that you are well meaning in writing this article but I must comment about what is said here. You ask why the people would give false numbers etc. RE: the game. I want to suggest that Mr. Bwman clearly has EVERY REASON to lie: he is still "spinning" his falsehoods, trying to keep this game "Horizons" ....HIS game.... long past the point where it should have been allowed to survive in the first place given the lack of quality the game has relative to the competition in the market to begin with. Plain and simply put: Horizons just isn't worth playing at all. Even Mr. Bowman knows this but he still has bills to pay and a family to support as do we all. It is a shame that he doesn't know when "enough is enough" and it is time to stop and walk away. From one who was among the very first group pf BETA testers for this game and one who "sold out" to the hype and supported Horizons to the "nth degree" I realized Last September that it was time to move on and my best advice to others out there now is to do the same. Horizons just isn't worth a second look.
Bankruptcy laws in most countries are designed to protect the government and the people going bankrupt. The idea that any bankruptcy law protects the consumer is certainly a novel one, and as for it protecting creditors......well just you watch as the government takes any money still left in a business before the crditors get a look in.
I have to agree that Horizons was rather a waste of time, at first look the game is OK but when you actually sit and play it then there was very little depth or content or pont to it all. This was a shame because it had alot of potential.
A good wife deserves more than half the praise, just as a bad one deserves more than half the blame. - Tacitus
Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against.
Bruce Lee
Oh well...the download didnt complete itself and freeze for some reason...and since it is HUGE, I dont care enought to try it again, I mean, damn, this is a HUGE download, I am not even sure what my internet provider give us as a limit to download.
I understand the problems and limits they have for download, but I am not a good understanding potential customer!
If it take more then an hour to download, it better work, or at least not been lost and in need to restart from scratch! Damn!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
That link has been like that for ages and TulgAE refuses to fix it. They do have a link somewhere else that does work but you would think the company (that is suppose to be so good) could at least get the trial download to work. Sort of says it all about this game.
I also find it amazing that article doesn't even talk about the troubles between GN (EU server) and TulgAE. GN is still working under the original AE contract and TulgAe refuses to help them unless they redo the contract for more cash. If you go to the EU link you will see the cert. is still not fixed and that has been like this for ages also. http://www.europe.istaria.com/ you really must be impressed with this one. Oh by the way this isn't GN's fault it lays right on TulgAE side. Great company I must say, NOT.
Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against.
Bruce Lee
Jesus, if thats true what happened to DA then I feel completly sorry for him, infact I feel certain anger towards Bowman and James.
Poor guy.
mmorpg.com is an unbiased website that offers every person who have a mmorpg to show it off to people like us. you are telling everyone that you would only have games up on a list what you believe needs to be shown, based on its a good quality game and they have good customer relations.
it is in fact that limitless horizons, began giving everyone a serious attitude to anyone or place that had anything negative. that is why mmorpg.com removed from the list not based its a poor game or not. horizons doesnt even come close to this, tulga have never gave anyone attitude they have been listening to everyone on how to improve the game.
mr dozer, i have to say that im really tired of your attitude. i have never seen you ever say anything positive about horizons. the developers and even david bowman have been working very hard to make this a good game. mr bowman said it exactly right, it came out too early, they needed more money but couldnt get it, so they had no choice to release it. everyone seems to be excited about horizons turn around, even mmorpg.com is stunned by it, except for you. im personally happy for the developers of horizons on the work they are doing trying to keep horizons alive and perhaps it will do much better in the future.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
@rudnoc
I am feeling kinda bored that everytime the talk comes to Horizons someone is coming up with that David Allen thingee.
Yes, we all know about it and regardless of what has happened back then between people this is not what the whole article is about.
Same goes for the neverending "they promised us everything and all we got was Horizons as it is now"-attitude.
When can people just go, check out the game and judge about the things they are offered, and nit judging about things someone once posted as a vision?
It was a valid argument back then when HZ was released, but 1+ year after launch it's stupid to still bring up old socks.
back to topic
Still, and this is what makes me angry, too about that editorial. The people again will be disappointed when they really expect 1000+ quests, and 1000+ monsters...
HZ has it's strengths in the three aspects Cosi talked about and in the mature and friendly community. And the graphics do shine in some moments... I advise you all to check out the latest video I made for our guild:
http://www.fileplanet.com/154241/150000/fileinfo/Horizons:-Empires-of-Istaria---Order-of-Reclamation-Guild-Movie
But it still lacks in many aspects. And this is true. The client performance could still be better forefront.
Still... Tulga IS working on the project, and the Devs show themselves more often on the boards again. A lot of player concerns were adressed. So I advise everyone to give it a go.
mmorpg.com is an unbiased website that offers every person who have a mmorpg to show it off to people like us. you are telling everyone that you would only have games up on a list what you believe needs to be shown, based on its a good quality game and they have good customer relations.
it is in fact that limitless horizons, began giving everyone a serious attitude to anyone or place that had anything negative. that is why mmorpg.com removed from the list not based its a poor game or not. horizons doesnt even come close to this, tulga have never gave anyone attitude they have been listening to everyone on how to improve the game.
mr dozer, i have to say that im really tired of your attitude. i have never seen you ever say anything positive about horizons. the developers and even david bowman have been working very hard to make this a good game. mr bowman said it exactly right, it came out too early, they needed more money but couldnt get it, so they had no choice to release it. everyone seems to be excited about horizons turn around, even mmorpg.com is stunned by it, except for you. im personally happy for the developers of horizons on the work they are doing trying to keep horizons alive and perhaps it will do much better in the future.
Limitless horizons lied about there game. TulgAE has done the same thing which if you read that article again is exactly what is going on here now with HZ. DB has only worked hard on one thing and that is ripping people off and of course lying to the player base. This game can't even run on its own money. If I am wrong on that one point then have TulgAE show us all there financials and prove it for once that they are making money. But saying that I wonder how many more need to be conned out of money before this sorry excuse for a game goes away for good. Infact I bet the dev's for this game DB excluded are making peanuts next to other developers (coders).
Please show me where they are excited and who? I read on VN boards how this article is full of it, heck even on their own community site they are saying how that article is so full of lies. I see only a very few people that even come close to excited about this game. I must say those are under suspect as who they really are.
Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against.
Bruce Lee
To be honest I didn't read all of that drama that was posted nor am I going to. The article had one message, try Horizons. So I'm going to try it. It certainly can't have any less content than Saga of Ryzom and I wasted a year on that.
New content, more stable servers yada yada yada......
What about the fact that David Bowman continually lied to the player base about everything from working storage vaults to transatlantic accounts, I wouldn't trust this guys words anymore than I would let Michael Jackson babysit.
It sounds like the author leaned a lot more on the word of Mr. Bowman than actual in game experience. We know what that is worth. Miracle patch anyone? I notice missing from the review, excuse me editorial, are words like fun, enjoyable or interesting. They seem to stretch the facts in the article about the number of quests, monsters and live events. I'm sure they didn't lie but come on. Most of the live events took place more than six months ago. Even then several of the events didn't work right and required reboots. I guess they call it an editorial because the reviewer doesn't have to spend much time playing the game or looking for issues with the game. Aside from a mention of a client issue, it sounds like the Horizons is the perfect game.
Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against.
Bruce Lee
I really don't get this community sometimes, how much sense does it make to attack the author of the article when it was obviously an editorial and not a review. Why would anyone expect the writer to attack a company when it's obviously there job to attempt to stay as neutral as possible, if mmorpg.com staff started attacking every game developer, producer, programer or whatever, how could they ever be expected to form relationship's with these people and then get us the info we need. Gah ! c'mon people, think a little here.
As for Horizons, for myself, I judge myself by the moral standards I set, involve myself with and support. I cannot with good ethical reasoning support a game that has lied, cheated and stolen from players (the very people that supported it for a great deal of time) and is run by a proven crook. I certainly do not wish negative things on those working on the project but I certainly cannot support it myself.
Important Information regarding Posting and You
Yes, this article is based 90% on an interview with David.
As I have said before, we are planning a full critical re-review of the game, but those things take time (if you want the author to actually experience the game). This article was intended to take a basic look at what is going on, based on the word of the developers, and a quick look in the game itself. With those two experiences, I felt more than comfortable suggesting people give the free trial a try. I never said give them your money. The developers said the game is finally at the state they wanted it to be. Given the amount of hype and disappointment many, myself included, experienced way back when - that to me indicates it is worth at the least a download and a free trial.
The second phase will be a re-review where we give it a fresh try on a clean slate, but in a critical article.
For future articles, I will be more clear to include where the article comes from. Progress Reports and Editorial marked articles are usually based on interviews and limited play experience. Given I write one a day, you cannot really expect me to spend the necessary time to do a critical review. That is why I typically do not write critical reviews, I cover too many games to invest the time to give them a fair shake.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
dozer,
you dont know what you are talking about. Have you tried horizons again recently? have anyone on the UV vault tried horizons recently too? People who are still in Horizons would most likely be in support not against so I dont believe you.
the author of the article was sure was pleased with the changes made with Horizons. Tulga games sure have been talking large steps to fix the problems and turn the game around. Ive just scrolled down a few posts on this thread and everyone too seem to be impressed with the changes Tulga games have made to Horizons, all expect for you.
nobody have lied about anything, i was there for a year and start on december 03, and it was obiviously released too early. Bowman was exactly right about that, he also admitted that were lacking funds to continue to develop the game for another year. It takes alot of money to make a game, the $18 million AE got to develop Horizons wasnt obiviously enough. What if AE got another two million, and waited for another year to fix all the problems, bugs and added content. Im sure it would have been a great game. Its really a fact that games now a days could cost as much as a movie. So its not cheap.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
Only way I give this game a try is if they give out a free trial that doesn't require a credit card number.
No way am I giving them my CC Info unless and until I've decided to actually buy the game.
I have a friend who played the game up till WOW came out and says it STILL sucks. I'm not giving my CC info out for a trial. Companies need to get it through their heads that we are getting sick of having to give out financial information to TRY their games.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Nothing but a new PC engine could help this game and yes I have played it. I still can't understand how anyone can believe anything DB has to say about this game. Look at how many free game times they have tried giving away. Now they are doing this coffee mug and tshirt thing. That clearly shows they are in damage control and attempting to get as many people as they can to get into game. I wouldn't be surprised if Baker hasn't given them and ultimatum to start bring a profit.
I have faith in MMORPG and I can wait for the review and I will bet it will show how the article in question was full of lies.
Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against.
Bruce Lee