Originally posted by vandal5627 Every game ever created that had a subscription model merits a subscription to SOMEONE. No justification needed.
I was never looking for justification. Nor was I looking for whether you would personally sub a game. And I really don't care about whether someone is entitled to this or that.
The real question I was trying to ask was about viability. In context of ESO and WildStar the two latest AAA games to attempt subscription. With ESO going B2P and WildStar rumored to possibly go. Neither of these games was a polished product at launch but they were far more advanced then any of the successful games of the past. Those games had much more time to grow. Is it even possible to launch a subscription game in todays market?
FFXIV is an interesting case. It had a horrible launch. They suspended the sub and I'd say doubled down on the investment re-launching as realm-reborn. So, after two development efforts they have something that seems to be worthy of a subscription. That took balls, funds to pull off and a dedicated fan base. They must have invested amost twice the amount of money they originally intended. But it's a pretty unique case. I don't think you can typically launch, suspend the subscription until you have developed a game that is worthy of one. Then tell everyone hey your going to have to pay a subscription to keep playing.
For me a sub game has to offer what I cant get from a non sub game. The only game that fits that is Eve Online because their is nothing else out like it. A game like Final Fantasy is no different then games like Star Wars or Rift. Gameplay is what matters to me.
Originally posted by sagewisdom Originally posted by scorpex-xThe only subscription I accept is one that either has no cash shop or one that is optional.FFXIV has a pay to win cash shop so I'm an completely against that one.
Okay, what the hell is pay to win in FFXIV's cash shop? Nothing. He just hates that game.
For me, it's not whether a game is worth a subscription. I'm paying a sub for LotRO and ESO right now.
The point is that I'm not going to play a game that has a mandatory sub. I'm not going to rent my games anymore, at least not as a standard practice. I just hate doing that.
In the larger picture, again from my perspective, it's not whether a game merits a subscription, but that I don't think most games benefit from locking themselves behind a sub service. They can do better financially and engage more players by dropping the subscription requirement and either selling access to their game (B2P) or just going straight F2P. Nearly every game on the market, and certainly any major title has multiple revenue streams (cash shop, subscription, rmt conversion, DLC, etc). I just don't see the overall benefit for a company to require a sub.
The exceptions:
WoW is always the exception. ActiBlizz does what it wants with WoW and its users accept that. That's true not just with monetization, but their game design, server structure, graphics, etc. Rules and paradigms that apply to most games don't apply to WoW the same way. So that should just be excluded from the equation for what works for other games.
FF14 is another one. They own the IP. They develop and publish the IP. They aren't beholden to many external forces and can run their games, not just FF14, any way they want, and they do. They are more concerned about their PR image and corporate culture than they are about maximizing profits, at least with their MMO. It's the same logic they use to decide what platforms a game will support and release on. They could make more money releasing everything on PC or making HD remakes, but they choose not to arbitrarily at their whim based on their corporate philosophy. Any company in this position, like Nintendo, does the same thing.
A few older moldering legacy games. Some games like Ryzom have their audience. Their audience isn't going to grow dramatically and they are happy paying how the game offers itself. It's not worth the money to add a cash shop or drastically change revenue models. It could hurt them a lot more than it could help.
That's my five bucks.
Fair points, particularly, at this point in time why lock your game into a sub model or even a b2p. Why don't games launch with multiple options including a subscription option? There are games with multiple options out there but they went to it over time. Why not just start there? I can't think of a game that did.
People keep mistaking cause, effect, correlation and all that.
There's nothing wrong with the sub model. It's just most MMOs these days are WoW clones and themeparks, which actively discourage long term play.
Themeparks encourage short burst content burn playstyles, which is insanely expensive, and people only stick around for a few months. On top of that, most of them are boring/poorly made, and just resemle WoW, which means people stick around even less.
Subscription games work for games designed to keep people long term, and are actually worth playing. Eve is still going because all its players are long term. Same with Darkfall. Same with the upcoming crop of indie MMOs, designed for long term.
Themepark and Sandbox games both do the same thing. You do the same content over and over till you have had enough
The huge differences is that sandbox content is player generated meaning
the content is usually way WAY less repetitious, cheaper, AND it encourages socializing. And its pretty much universally agreed that social glue and forming strong friendships keeps people playing MMOs way longer than they would solo.
SO who plays longer, a sandbox player with friends? Or someone who burrns through 2 days of linear content in a themepark, solo, then quits like he would a singleplayer game?
The funny thing is: F2P games tend to be the most expensive.
Games designed around a subscription don't require the endless (and expensive) micro-transactions to get anywhere.
I support 4 gamers playing GW2. Granted it's a B2P game but many on this site don't see a difference between that and F2P. We don't spend real money in the cash shop. It's not more expensive then a sub game it's far less.
If you see a difference between B2P and F2P then disregard. I certainly couldn't affort a micro-transaction F2P game that bled me dry.
No. I used to be a HUGE supporter of subscription based games, but what I have found is that I feel more obligated to play them to get my money worth. Since I do not have that kind of time anymore I do not see the value in it.
What merits a subscription? Updates? Level of content? Fun of the game? It is a matter of perspective. Most games fail in their promised to provide frequent and adequate updates. If that is the sole reasoning behind a subscription, then the answer you be none; there are currently no games that warrant a subscription.
How do you deny that FFXIV doesn't warrant a subscription? If there is any way to squeeze out bigger patches or more volume on a similarly frequent and constant basis, please let me know. Your bar has been set so high we need help from a higher life force to reach it.
The patches can be as big as they want...it's just not a very good game. It's just another WoW clone in an endless sea I got tired of 10 years ago.
I budget $100 a month for video games. $15 bucks for an mmorpg is fine with me. I can kind see the whole rental thing like torval said. But I also rent movies, go to movies, etc and that's more money than a sub.
What merits a subscription? Updates? Level of content? Fun of the game? It is a matter of perspective. Most games fail in their promised to provide frequent and adequate updates. If that is the sole reasoning behind a subscription, then the answer you be none; there are currently no games that warrant a subscription.
How do you deny that FFXIV doesn't warrant a subscription? If there is any way to squeeze out bigger patches or more volume on a similarly frequent and constant basis, please let me know. Your bar has been set so high we need help from a higher life force to reach it.
FFXIV is doing it right, from a content update standpoint. They are releasing new content every 3-4 months. However, to be fair, small content updates like this typically last less than 1 month. The locusts destroy it. Besides, most of their updates involve quests, quests, more quests, and a dungeon or two. They've release 1 raid as far as I can tell (I'm not much of a raid anymore anyways, so I don't pay attention)
Relaunched 8/2013
2.1 update was 12/2013
2.2 update was 3/2014
2.3 update was 7/2014
2.4 update was 10/2014
2.5 update was 1/2015
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
The only subscription I accept is one that either has no cash shop or one that is optional.
FFXIV has a pay to win cash shop so I'm an completely against that one.
Okay, what the hell is pay to win in FFXIV's cash shop?
They have items players sell for large amounts of gil, pretty much the company partaking in RMT. I posted this in another thread but I'll put it here too. A lot of us quit over this p2w cash shop practice.
All items on the cash shop are not tradeable, except wedding rings (which are really overpriced).
The only way to get these wedding rings is by paying real money for them or trading gil to someone else that will.
Weddings are really popular on FFXIV due to the kind of players the game attracts.
Having lots of gil means merc groups will clear whatever you want and let you lot whatever you want.
So if you're rich irl you can just buy anything you want in FFXIV, when a pay to play title lets you pay your way to the top that is pay to win.
Here is another thread about how p2w FFXIV is form it's own players.
For a player that just got to level 50 it was a pretty big jump to go from i50->i110(HQ) in just a few minutes. I asked them how they did it, guess what they did.
Bought $40.00 Platinum Plan, and sold the Promise of Devotion for about 5mil each.
Its not mandatory but if you have the money to spend it can get you a huge boost.
Think of it as an "Optional" Power boost.
Also again, as I said before. Lots of cash bought gil means the games large merc population will get you whatever you want.
Players stopped complaining or quit over this after a while because Square don't care and love the extra $$
Subscription fees are a relic of the past. They were required to maintain server fees. It's been proven though, that other models can also work, such as F2P and B2P.
The last mainstream subscription MMO's are probably FFXIV and WoW. I want to say EvE also, but imo, it's a niche title and not mainstream. (It's just a game everyone talks about, but nobody plays. lol.)
There are no pure subscription MMO games anymore (again, mainstream ones). They all have cash shops now.
I don't see any current MMO that would merit a subscription, not even WoW. They've been trudging along, and the devs are uninspired for it's direction. The content keeps getting less sparse for each expansion since wotlk/cata.
I prefer B2P and F2P now, so i can manage my own money and time.
I think people prefer subscriptions because they truly believe they're getting a quality product in return, and also, because they would rather have that transaction in the background, and not worry about managing their own money on services that B2P or F2P cash shops provide.
If you see a difference between B2P and F2P then disregard. I certainly couldn't affort a micro-transaction F2P game that bled me dry.
I don't place B2P and F2P in the same category.
...because cognitive dissonance is a beautiful thing.
Show me a B2P MMO and I'll show you a F2P MMO that managed to get people to pay for the client. The business model is exactly the same, save for the upfront fee of the B2P MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What merits a subscription? Updates? Level of content? Fun of the game? It is a matter of perspective. Most games fail in their promised to provide frequent and adequate updates. If that is the sole reasoning behind a subscription, then the answer you be none; there are currently no games that warrant a subscription.
How do you deny that FFXIV doesn't warrant a subscription? If there is any way to squeeze out bigger patches or more volume on a similarly frequent and constant basis, please let me know. Your bar has been set so high we need help from a higher life force to reach it.
FFXIV is doing it right, from a content update standpoint. They are releasing new content every 3-4 months. However, to be fair, small content updates like this typically last less than 1 month. The locusts destroy it. Besides, most of their updates involve quests, quests, more quests, and a dungeon or two. They've release 1 raid as far as I can tell (I'm not much of a raid anymore anyways, so I don't pay attention)
Relaunched 8/2013
2.1 update was 12/2013
2.2 update was 3/2014
2.3 update was 7/2014
2.4 update was 10/2014
2.5 update was 1/2015
3 dungeons (no Hard Mode dungeons are not the same as Normal Mode - different trash, paths, bosses, areas, etc.), 2+ trials (hard mode story version and extreme mode), 2.2 and 2.4 had hard raid mode, 2.1 and 2.3 and 2.5 had LFR difficulty level CT raid (both have tons of mechanics and most people still haven't beaten the second coil), Wolves Den (4 vs 4 PvP - admitedly dead), Frontlines (24 vs 24 vs 24 PvP - queues admitedly messed up thanks to slaughter), treasure hunting, housing, crafting upgrades, chocobo raising, chocobo training, chocobo breeding, chocobo racing, pony farming, Triple Triad, minigames, lottery, main story quests, Hildibrand quests, gardening, marrying, Rogue Class, Ninja Job, Rogue and Ninja class quests, Seasonal events (different every time), Relic weapon grind, Savage Coil Mode (Raid), fishing, sightseeing logue, glamours, and hunts.
And, none of it usually has bugs and problems are fixed quick.
The inability to stay profitable under a subscription is the result of casual game design and choosing to emulate rather than innovate. When games were unique, this was not an issue.
It wasn't just about there being less competition, there were still 10+ big name games 10 years ago, yet all of them found success in the subscription because they all offered something a little different. People argue that today theres "soo many options" but in reality there isn't for most people. Anyone that takes an objective look at the long list of games on this site knows there might be 10 games that are relevant and still have something to offer the average player today. Its really no different than it was 10 years ago. The vast majority of people are still playing 5-10 major titles and then maybe a small fraction are outliers playing something you've probably never heard of and wouldn't want to if you did.
The second problem is casual design. When you choose to make your game casual friendly by offering convenience and accessibility, you generally eliminate the need for players to commit to a long term investment in your game. Its the classic case of fast food gaming where players come and go after devouring the shallow content you had to offer. Maybe you can keep producing enough to keep them coming back down the line, but maybe you can't.
If a game comes along that using an older design model, I believe the subscription will work just fine as it once did. For instance, if a traditional mmorpg was released today with virtually no competition, people who enjoyed the game would pay the sub because theres simply nothing else remotely like it. People interested in that type of game are not easily tempted by modern mmos.
The only subscription I accept is one that either has no cash shop or one that is optional.
FFXIV has a pay to win cash shop so I'm an completely against that one.
Okay, what the hell is pay to win in FFXIV's cash shop?
They have items players sell for large amounts of gil, pretty much the company partaking in RMT. I posted this in another thread but I'll put it here too. A lot of us quit over this p2w cash shop practice.
All items on the cash shop are not tradeable, except wedding rings (which are really overpriced).
The only way to get these wedding rings is by paying real money for them or trading gil to someone else that will.
Weddings are really popular on FFXIV due to the kind of players the game attracts.
Having lots of gil means merc groups will clear whatever you want and let you lot whatever you want.
So if you're rich irl you can just buy anything you want in FFXIV, when a pay to play title lets you pay your way to the top that is pay to win.
Here is another thread about how p2w FFXIV is form it's own players.
For a player that just got to level 50 it was a pretty big jump to go from i50->i110(HQ) in just a few minutes. I asked them how they did it, guess what they did.
Bought $40.00 Platinum Plan, and sold the Promise of Devotion for about 5mil each.
Its not mandatory but if you have the money to spend it can get you a huge boost.
Think of it as an "Optional" Power boost.
Also again, as I said before. Lots of cash bought gil means the games large merc population will get you whatever you want.
Players stopped complaining or quit over this after a while because Square don't care and love the extra $$
Gil does not get you that far in FFXIV - I sincerely doubt anyone got carried through FCoB.
That's not even going into the fact that it's not SE's fault that people are selling items for a high premium price and people are dumb enough to buy it. Bots sell good and RMT spam happens, and people actually buy gil and their goods. They can only do so much about this.
Also, I seriously doubt more than a small handful do this anyway. Constantly paying more money on top of a subscribtion just to get some gil and then use it to get through hard stuff? Yeah, no, not many people would choose to do this. Hell, you want to get to the nitty gritty, what are they winning? They aren't going to be world firsts, they aren't getting anything you can't get yourself, and they aren't taking anything from you either.
Why would it even bother you that some dope is spending more money to get far in a game he won't even be able to play? FFXIV is very mechanically driven game with lots of movement and dodging and in many cases, knowing how to play your job properly. They aren't winning anything because they won't be even on the same radar as the "best" due to how few things can allow you to be carried when they come out fresh.
The only subscription I accept is one that either has no cash shop or one that is optional.
FFXIV has a pay to win cash shop so I'm an completely against that one.
Okay, what the hell is pay to win in FFXIV's cash shop?
They have items players sell for large amounts of gil, pretty much the company partaking in RMT. I posted this in another thread but I'll put it here too. A lot of us quit over this p2w cash shop practice.
All items on the cash shop are not tradeable, except wedding rings (which are really overpriced).
The only way to get these wedding rings is by paying real money for them or trading gil to someone else that will.
Weddings are really popular on FFXIV due to the kind of players the game attracts.
Having lots of gil means merc groups will clear whatever you want and let you lot whatever you want.
So if you're rich irl you can just buy anything you want in FFXIV, when a pay to play title lets you pay your way to the top that is pay to win.
Here is another thread about how p2w FFXIV is form it's own players.
For a player that just got to level 50 it was a pretty big jump to go from i50->i110(HQ) in just a few minutes. I asked them how they did it, guess what they did.
Bought $40.00 Platinum Plan, and sold the Promise of Devotion for about 5mil each.
Its not mandatory but if you have the money to spend it can get you a huge boost.
Think of it as an "Optional" Power boost.
Also again, as I said before. Lots of cash bought gil means the games large merc population will get you whatever you want.
Players stopped complaining or quit over this after a while because Square don't care and love the extra $$
Gil does not get you that far in FFXIV - I sincerely doubt anyone got carried through FCoB.
That's not even going into the fact that it's not SE's fault that people are selling items for a high premium price and people are dumb enough to buy it. Bots sell good and RMT spam happens, and people actually buy gil and their goods. They can only do so much about this.
Also, I seriously doubt more than a small handful do this anyway. Constantly paying more money on top of a subscribtion just to get some gil and then use it to get through hard stuff? Yeah, no, not many people would choose to do this. Hell, you want to get to the nitty gritty, what are they winning? They aren't going to be world firsts, they aren't getting anything you can't get yourself, and they aren't taking anything from you either.
Why would it even bother you that some dope is spending more money to get far in a game he won't even be able to play? FFXIV is very mechanically driven game with lots of movement and dodging and in many cases, knowing how to play your job properly. They aren't winning anything because they won't be even on the same radar as the "best" due to how few things can allow you to be carried when they come out fresh.
It honestly just sounds like you're jealous.
Sadly as I showed it does, not only can you get buy higher Ilevel gear but you can pay mercs to get anything you want.
That is way above as p2w as a sub based mmo should ever be, some... as you appear to be are fine with a p2w cash shop. I am not, especially not on a subscription mmo.
A subscription, box fee, expensive expansion fee and a p2w cash shop is too much for me.
Originally posted by vandal5627 Every game ever created that had a subscription model merits a subscription to SOMEONE. No justification needed.
I was never looking for justification. Nor was I looking for whether you would personally sub a game. And I really don't care about whether someone is entitled to this or that.
The real question I was trying to ask was about viability. In context of ESO and WildStar the two latest AAA games to attempt subscription. With ESO going B2P and WildStar rumored to possibly go. Neither of these games was a polished product at launch but they were far more advanced then any of the successful games of the past. Those games had much more time to grow. Is it even possible to launch a subscription game in todays market?
FFXIV is an interesting case. It had a horrible launch. They suspended the sub and I'd say doubled down on the investment re-launching as realm-reborn. So, after two development efforts they have something that seems to be worthy of a subscription. That took balls, funds to pull off and a dedicated fan base. They must have invested amost twice the amount of money they originally intended. But it's a pretty unique case. I don't think you can typically launch, suspend the subscription until you have developed a game that is worthy of one. Then tell everyone hey your going to have to pay a subscription to keep playing.
The real question should've been asked in the first place. You asked a question, it was answered in the manner it was asked.
Also, if the real question about viability of subscription then why turn around and talk about a game being worthy of a subscription or not. Looks to me that I responded to the real question after all.
The inability to stay profitable under a subscription is the result of casual game design and choosing to emulate rather than innovate. When games were unique, this was not an issue.
It wasn't just about there being less competition, there were still 10+ big name games 10 years ago, yet all of them found success in the subscription because they all offered something a little different. People argue that today theres "soo many options" but in reality there isn't for most people. Anyone that takes an objective look at the long list of games on this site knows there might be 10 games that are relevant and still have something to offer the average player today. Its really no different than it was 10 years ago. The vast majority of people are still playing 5-10 major titles and then maybe a small fraction are outliers playing something you've probably never heard of and wouldn't want to if you did.
The second problem is casual design. When you choose to make your game casual friendly by offering convenience and accessibility, you generally eliminate the need for players to commit to a long term investment in your game. Its the classic case of fast food gaming where players come and go after devouring the shallow content you had to offer. Maybe you can keep producing enough to keep them coming back down the line, but maybe you can't.
If a game comes along that using an older design model, I believe the subscription will work just fine as it once did. For instance, if a traditional mmorpg was released today with virtually no competition, people who enjoyed the game would pay the sub because theres simply nothing else remotely like it. People interested in that type of game are not easily tempted by modern mmos.
I would argue that games today launch with more to do then 10 years ago, well for me 14 years ago, is that the nature of a "casual" game? Granted that isn't necessarly innovative and I'd rather not get into an argument over what is and isn't innovative. Been there on this site, nobody will agree. I'll just leave it at that things have changed such that there is more to do then there was 14 years ago. The content does seem to be consumed faster then ever purhaps the casual design is too throw away and doesn't repeat. But in the older games there wasn't really that many options so you repeated because you had to.
For older games, the leveling curve was longer but that didn't result in greater game play just tedium. I can appreciate what kind of social environment of shared pain that created, that certainly has been missing in the newer mmos. I don't think anyone has captured that with what you call "casual game design".
Originally posted by vandal5627 Every game ever created that had a subscription model merits a subscription to SOMEONE. No justification needed.
I was never looking for justification. Nor was I looking for whether you would personally sub a game. And I really don't care about whether someone is entitled to this or that.
The real question I was trying to ask was about viability. In context of ESO and WildStar the two latest AAA games to attempt subscription. With ESO going B2P and WildStar rumored to possibly go. Neither of these games was a polished product at launch but they were far more advanced then any of the successful games of the past. Those games had much more time to grow. Is it even possible to launch a subscription game in todays market?
FFXIV is an interesting case. It had a horrible launch. They suspended the sub and I'd say doubled down on the investment re-launching as realm-reborn. So, after two development efforts they have something that seems to be worthy of a subscription. That took balls, funds to pull off and a dedicated fan base. They must have invested amost twice the amount of money they originally intended. But it's a pretty unique case. I don't think you can typically launch, suspend the subscription until you have developed a game that is worthy of one. Then tell everyone hey your going to have to pay a subscription to keep playing.
The real question should've been asked in the first place. You asked a question, it was answered in the manner it was asked.
Also, if the real question about viability of subscription then why turn around and talk about a game being worthy of a subscription or not. Looks to me that I responded to the real question after all.
The question was asked with respect to a game meriting a subscription with respect to viability that was clarified in the original post text. You certainly can feel I was not clear in my explaination, thats your call, not going to argue that further.
Comments
I was never looking for justification. Nor was I looking for whether you would personally sub a game. And I really don't care about whether someone is entitled to this or that.
The real question I was trying to ask was about viability. In context of ESO and WildStar the two latest AAA games to attempt subscription. With ESO going B2P and WildStar rumored to possibly go. Neither of these games was a polished product at launch but they were far more advanced then any of the successful games of the past. Those games had much more time to grow. Is it even possible to launch a subscription game in todays market?
FFXIV is an interesting case. It had a horrible launch. They suspended the sub and I'd say doubled down on the investment re-launching as realm-reborn. So, after two development efforts they have something that seems to be worthy of a subscription. That took balls, funds to pull off and a dedicated fan base. They must have invested amost twice the amount of money they originally intended. But it's a pretty unique case. I don't think you can typically launch, suspend the subscription until you have developed a game that is worthy of one. Then tell everyone hey your going to have to pay a subscription to keep playing.
Okay, what the hell is pay to win in FFXIV's cash shop?
Nothing. He just hates that game.
The funny thing is: F2P games tend to be the most expensive.
Games designed around a subscription don't require the endless (and expensive) micro-transactions to get anywhere.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Fair points, particularly, at this point in time why lock your game into a sub model or even a b2p. Why don't games launch with multiple options including a subscription option? There are games with multiple options out there but they went to it over time. Why not just start there? I can't think of a game that did.
The huge differences is that sandbox content is player generated meaning
the content is usually way WAY less repetitious, cheaper, AND it encourages socializing. And its pretty much universally agreed that social glue and forming strong friendships keeps people playing MMOs way longer than they would solo.
SO who plays longer, a sandbox player with friends? Or someone who burrns through 2 days of linear content in a themepark, solo, then quits like he would a singleplayer game?
I support 4 gamers playing GW2. Granted it's a B2P game but many on this site don't see a difference between that and F2P. We don't spend real money in the cash shop. It's not more expensive then a sub game it's far less.
If you see a difference between B2P and F2P then disregard. I certainly couldn't affort a micro-transaction F2P game that bled me dry.
The patches can be as big as they want...it's just not a very good game. It's just another WoW clone in an endless sea I got tired of 10 years ago.
I budget $100 a month for video games. $15 bucks for an mmorpg is fine with me. I can kind see the whole rental thing like torval said. But I also rent movies, go to movies, etc and that's more money than a sub.
I don't place B2P and F2P in the same category.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
FFXIV is doing it right, from a content update standpoint. They are releasing new content every 3-4 months. However, to be fair, small content updates like this typically last less than 1 month. The locusts destroy it. Besides, most of their updates involve quests, quests, more quests, and a dungeon or two. They've release 1 raid as far as I can tell (I'm not much of a raid anymore anyways, so I don't pay attention)
Relaunched 8/2013
2.1 update was 12/2013
2.2 update was 3/2014
2.3 update was 7/2014
2.4 update was 10/2014
2.5 update was 1/2015
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
They have items players sell for large amounts of gil, pretty much the company partaking in RMT. I posted this in another thread but I'll put it here too. A lot of us quit over this p2w cash shop practice.
All items on the cash shop are not tradeable, except wedding rings (which are really overpriced).
The only way to get these wedding rings is by paying real money for them or trading gil to someone else that will.
Weddings are really popular on FFXIV due to the kind of players the game attracts.
Having lots of gil means merc groups will clear whatever you want and let you lot whatever you want.
So if you're rich irl you can just buy anything you want in FFXIV, when a pay to play title lets you pay your way to the top that is pay to win.
Here is another thread about how p2w FFXIV is form it's own players.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/208586-FFXIV-A-Step-to-P2W-(My-2.45-Feedback)
Also again, as I said before. Lots of cash bought gil means the games large merc population will get you whatever you want.
Players stopped complaining or quit over this after a while because Square don't care and love the extra $$
Subscription fees are a relic of the past. They were required to maintain server fees. It's been proven though, that other models can also work, such as F2P and B2P.
The last mainstream subscription MMO's are probably FFXIV and WoW. I want to say EvE also, but imo, it's a niche title and not mainstream. (It's just a game everyone talks about, but nobody plays. lol.)
There are no pure subscription MMO games anymore (again, mainstream ones). They all have cash shops now.
I don't see any current MMO that would merit a subscription, not even WoW. They've been trudging along, and the devs are uninspired for it's direction. The content keeps getting less sparse for each expansion since wotlk/cata.
I prefer B2P and F2P now, so i can manage my own money and time.
I think people prefer subscriptions because they truly believe they're getting a quality product in return, and also, because they would rather have that transaction in the background, and not worry about managing their own money on services that B2P or F2P cash shops provide.
...because cognitive dissonance is a beautiful thing.
Show me a B2P MMO and I'll show you a F2P MMO that managed to get people to pay for the client. The business model is exactly the same, save for the upfront fee of the B2P MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
3 dungeons (no Hard Mode dungeons are not the same as Normal Mode - different trash, paths, bosses, areas, etc.), 2+ trials (hard mode story version and extreme mode), 2.2 and 2.4 had hard raid mode, 2.1 and 2.3 and 2.5 had LFR difficulty level CT raid (both have tons of mechanics and most people still haven't beaten the second coil), Wolves Den (4 vs 4 PvP - admitedly dead), Frontlines (24 vs 24 vs 24 PvP - queues admitedly messed up thanks to slaughter), treasure hunting, housing, crafting upgrades, chocobo raising, chocobo training, chocobo breeding, chocobo racing, pony farming, Triple Triad, minigames, lottery, main story quests, Hildibrand quests, gardening, marrying, Rogue Class, Ninja Job, Rogue and Ninja class quests, Seasonal events (different every time), Relic weapon grind, Savage Coil Mode (Raid), fishing, sightseeing logue, glamours, and hunts.
And, none of it usually has bugs and problems are fixed quick.
The inability to stay profitable under a subscription is the result of casual game design and choosing to emulate rather than innovate. When games were unique, this was not an issue.
It wasn't just about there being less competition, there were still 10+ big name games 10 years ago, yet all of them found success in the subscription because they all offered something a little different. People argue that today theres "soo many options" but in reality there isn't for most people. Anyone that takes an objective look at the long list of games on this site knows there might be 10 games that are relevant and still have something to offer the average player today. Its really no different than it was 10 years ago. The vast majority of people are still playing 5-10 major titles and then maybe a small fraction are outliers playing something you've probably never heard of and wouldn't want to if you did.
The second problem is casual design. When you choose to make your game casual friendly by offering convenience and accessibility, you generally eliminate the need for players to commit to a long term investment in your game. Its the classic case of fast food gaming where players come and go after devouring the shallow content you had to offer. Maybe you can keep producing enough to keep them coming back down the line, but maybe you can't.
If a game comes along that using an older design model, I believe the subscription will work just fine as it once did. For instance, if a traditional mmorpg was released today with virtually no competition, people who enjoyed the game would pay the sub because theres simply nothing else remotely like it. People interested in that type of game are not easily tempted by modern mmos.
Gil does not get you that far in FFXIV - I sincerely doubt anyone got carried through FCoB.
That's not even going into the fact that it's not SE's fault that people are selling items for a high premium price and people are dumb enough to buy it. Bots sell good and RMT spam happens, and people actually buy gil and their goods. They can only do so much about this.
Also, I seriously doubt more than a small handful do this anyway. Constantly paying more money on top of a subscribtion just to get some gil and then use it to get through hard stuff? Yeah, no, not many people would choose to do this. Hell, you want to get to the nitty gritty, what are they winning? They aren't going to be world firsts, they aren't getting anything you can't get yourself, and they aren't taking anything from you either.
Why would it even bother you that some dope is spending more money to get far in a game he won't even be able to play? FFXIV is very mechanically driven game with lots of movement and dodging and in many cases, knowing how to play your job properly. They aren't winning anything because they won't be even on the same radar as the "best" due to how few things can allow you to be carried when they come out fresh.
It honestly just sounds like you're jealous.
Sadly as I showed it does, not only can you get buy higher Ilevel gear but you can pay mercs to get anything you want.
That is way above as p2w as a sub based mmo should ever be, some... as you appear to be are fine with a p2w cash shop. I am not, especially not on a subscription mmo.
A subscription, box fee, expensive expansion fee and a p2w cash shop is too much for me.
The real question should've been asked in the first place. You asked a question, it was answered in the manner it was asked.
Also, if the real question about viability of subscription then why turn around and talk about a game being worthy of a subscription or not. Looks to me that I responded to the real question after all.
I would argue that games today launch with more to do then 10 years ago, well for me 14 years ago, is that the nature of a "casual" game? Granted that isn't necessarly innovative and I'd rather not get into an argument over what is and isn't innovative. Been there on this site, nobody will agree. I'll just leave it at that things have changed such that there is more to do then there was 14 years ago. The content does seem to be consumed faster then ever purhaps the casual design is too throw away and doesn't repeat. But in the older games there wasn't really that many options so you repeated because you had to.
For older games, the leveling curve was longer but that didn't result in greater game play just tedium. I can appreciate what kind of social environment of shared pain that created, that certainly has been missing in the newer mmos. I don't think anyone has captured that with what you call "casual game design".
The question was asked with respect to a game meriting a subscription with respect to viability that was clarified in the original post text. You certainly can feel I was not clear in my explaination, thats your call, not going to argue that further.