Put simply, older gamers are used to having puzzles to figure out, lore to read, areas to explore, and more to do than just collecting loot. Younger gamers only care about an extra +1 to their purple pants of epic purpleness, and would be happy to just have a "dungeon" that's a painting of a scary boss mob with a red button under it, and a loot dispenser chute.
Given that I'm an older gamer, I dont really care for long content as I once did; however, I still want challenging content. "Longer" content kind of weeded players out between skilled and non-skilled so it was easier for guilds to recruit actually good players. Now its just like everyone wants to run a guild and recruit anyone just to build up a bank > take the bank > join a better guild on a different server. Or at least that was how it was a couple of years ago in many games for a long time. I'd like to think that people actually want to play with other good players and to me challenging content kind of makes people prove how good they are vs talking about it.
What I do see... a bunch of newbies who comment on things they don't know about. Half of you don't even know what MMO means. You guys didn't play the original games. You didn't know how much variety they offered. Today's games typically have less some how. All these "new" things, but they still have less. But hey, how would you know? You aren't a "vet". Enjoy your uninformed opinions.
Oh please, there are plenty of people that played those old games. They just don't agree with the total exxaggeration from a small niche of people of how good the good old days were. Opinions are opinions, people like you need to stop harping about how your opinion of good is better than others.
Yeah its great when people talk about things they have no clue about. If I am a mechanic and you are a gardener, and you tell me what being a mechanic is or was like... Im just gonna have to ignore you. Just get over it dude. Opinions are opinions. But this guy made up a thread on something so small, presented it as a bigger deal than it was, stated his opinion, and I stated mine. Don't like it, don't read it. I don't tell people not to post just because I don't like what they say. Get over yourself.
What I do see... a bunch of newbies who comment on things they don't know about. Half of you don't even know what MMO means. You guys didn't play the original games. You didn't know how much variety they offered. Today's games typically have less some how. All these "new" things, but they still have less. But hey, how would you know? You aren't a "vet". Enjoy your uninformed opinions.
Oh please, there are plenty of people that played those old games. They just don't agree with the total exxaggeration from a small niche of people of how good the good old days were. Opinions are opinions, people like you need to stop harping about how your opinion of good is better than others.
Yeah its great when people talk about things they have no clue about. If I am a mechanic and you are a gardener, and you tell me what being a mechanic is or was like... Im just gonna have to ignore you. Just get over it dude. Opinions are opinions. But this guy made up a thread on something so small, presented it as a bigger deal than it was, stated his opinion, and I stated mine. Don't like it, don't read it. I don't tell people not to post just because I don't like what they say. Get over yourself.
I'm sure you're the one that needs to get over yourself.
Their Fake vets,no player that played in the old days want a 1 day thing like in the old days.Most vets like me want more challenging and exciting content that doesn't take a full day and can be played when ever.
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
They seem to think longer, tedious, time consuming, etc is synonymous to challenging and difficult.
I think Wildstar proved this isn't the case. The "mmo vets" ask for it, and when they get it they say its too hard. Personally I'm fine with the new generation that allows me to be with my family and not have to work them around a raid schedule, or work hours to be attuned for an instance.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Hello Subscriptions were there day 1 of MMOs. UO was the first MMO and they had a Subscription. The Model was designed so they could keep severs up and running and pay for Operations. An MMO By definition is a timesink. Having people to manage servers, having power to keep the servers online, internet access for the servers and Developers to fix bugs and create new content. All of this cost money and is not free. They need people to sub to their game so they can pay their operational cost. Free does not pay the bills.
Now do we need 1 hour timesinks to travel..... NO. However how enjoyable is a dungeon when you can do it 10 times in a day because its 5 or 10 minutes of content? You will get bored as all hell and quit because you are no longer enjoying the content. So having a 30 min to a 90 min dungeon is not unacceptable and no its not a timesink if done correctly.
Sure, and maybe UO didn't aggressively try to monetize that business model. But by EQ1 and AC in 1999, there was no doubt that developers were pushing hard on timesinks to chase after that money.
"Timesink" is only used to indicate a bad gameplay/time ratio. It's basically the same as grind -- these terms simply don't get used except when the gameplay/time ratio is bad. regarding gaming before MMORPGs because games were extremely generous in providing a lot of gameplay for every hour invested.
MMORPGs aren't timesinks by definition. In fact, one of the larger factors behind WOW's success is how much more gameplay it provided per hour, compared with its competitors. A ratio which has improved considerably over the years (at launch it was noticeably better than competitors, but admittedly still pretty bad by the standards of other genres.)
So nobody measures those dungeons based on the length of time they take but they measure it based on the amount of gameplay/fun they're going to experience relative to the time required. The 90+ minute world dungeons I experienced in early MMORPGs were total crap compared with one of WOW's 15 minute dungeons.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by killerdodo2 Their Fake vets,no player that played in the old days want a 1 day thing like in the old days.Most vets like me want more challenging and exciting content that doesn't take a full day and can be played when ever.
No wonder we can't have world peace.
Aren't you doing what others are doing and essentially speaking FOR other people?
Is it really so hard for everyone to realize that different people get "jazzed" for different things?
It's how people are wired.
I have friends who believe that for every moment you spend playing a video game you could be doing something that is actually worthwhile.
Who is right?
As a side note ...
Did anyone ever think that it's not about having dungeons/activities that are just "long" but having dungeons/activities that are long so that they can be in a social situation/have experiences with people they actually like for that amount of time?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by killerdodo2 Their Fake vets,no player that played in the old days want a 1 day thing like in the old days.Most vets like me want more challenging and exciting content that doesn't take a full day and can be played when ever.
Fake vets ? So anyone not thinking like you is a fake vet ? I want more challenging and exciting content that last forever. I want it to take months to get to the top. I want a virtual world to live in, even if on certain days I only have 15 minutes to be in it.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Because we appreciate the journey, we are patient, we do enjoy lore and the story, we do understand immersion needs engagement, we don't get jealous if others rush ahead, we know that it madness to rush through content that took years to develop to get to end game where content runs out. Starter for 10
The dungeons of old games and new ones can't really be compared. They were two different things. The old games were open dungeons people could spend any amount of time killing things. The newer ones are instances that have a set amount of content. Some are quick, some not so much.
When the older games started using instances, like EQ with ldon, those were actually pretty quick. They were also timed, think had up to 1.5 hours, but I often remember running through many of them under 30 minutes. I liked both the longer and shorter instances.
As far as the dungeons, I liked the HUGE dungeons you could camp for several hours or just 1 hour depending on your time because that was camping, where people gained exp. If I have a big block of time to play, I rather find a group and keep killing in the same area, moving depending on what camps open up than queue for an instance for 30 minutes, fight for 15minutes, then queue again for another 30 minutes, lol. I find that more tedious, the long wait of doing nothing to then only play for a short period.
Now I know some people hate the LFD, but I kind of like it, even with the awful waits sometimes. Still prefer open dungeon camps though. Back in WoW, don't think I ever did dungeons until end game, but when I played again after lfd, I was able to level by dungeons and that was just more fun, when I didn't have long waits, lol.
In FXIV I like the way the groups and dungeons are done. You can do the LFD and wait possibly a long time for a group, but you can also easily form a group or join one by search. Even if you don't fill all the spots, can just queue to get the rest of the people. The system just seems smoother than what I remember of WoW's.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Because we appreciate the journey, we are patient, we do enjoy lore and the story, we do understand immersion needs engagement, we don't get jealous if others rush ahead, we know that it madness to rush through content that took years to develop to get to end game where content runs out. Starter for 10
Nice post
It should be set in bronze as the Nerd MMORPG Creed. /salute!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Well here's the thing, most vets, like myself, in their 30's and 40's have been multi-tasking life and their games since our teens. Only difference being instead of a real job and family, we had, back then, after school homework, sports/recreation, girl/boyfriends and part-time jobs. Case in point, real vets don't need games dumbed down to fit a certain life-style, as we have always factored in our game time with real life.
Calling all cars! Calling all cars!
Availability Cascade in progress at the corner of False Consensus Street and Cognitive Bias Boulevard.
All available units, please respond. Suspect is armed and dangerous. All available units, please respond.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Older games and today's games are just very different. You can't just take one of today's games, stretch out the leveling times and kill times and say there you go .. it takes longer to level and fights are harder. Enjoy!
That would just make new games longer and more tedious, but still not what is wanted. I think vets want the older game style which included longer leveling and more difficult fights, but particularly non-instanced and more group oriented gameplay.
Though today's games and older games are in the same MMORPG category, they are very different games. Trying to compare them just by length of playtime is the wrong comparison.
I don't mind content. I just don't want to be forced to play 10 year old rehash developer content or play a game that is only developer content. If I want to play developer content I will play it my way, single player with better gameplay.
Originally posted by killerdodo2 Their Fake vets,no player that played in the old days want a 1 day thing like in the old days.Most vets like me want more challenging and exciting content that doesn't take a full day and can be played when ever.
No wonder we can't have world peace.
Aren't you doing what others are doing and essentially speaking FOR other people?
Is it really so hard for everyone to realize that different people get "jazzed" for different things?
It's how people are wired.
I have friends who believe that for every moment you spend playing a video game you could be doing something that is actually worthwhile.
Who is right?
As a side note ...
Did anyone ever think that it's not about having dungeons/activities that are just "long" but having dungeons/activities that are long so that they can be in a social situation/have experiences with people they actually like for that amount of time?
Your friends are right. Absolutely.
I think its time I took their advice. Thanks.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
Well here's the thing, most vets, like myself, in their 30's and 40's have been multi-tasking life and their games since our teens. Only difference being instead of a real job and family, we had, back then, after school homework, sports/recreation, girl/boyfriends and part-time jobs. Case in point, real vets don't need games dumbed down to fit a certain life-style, as we have always factored in our game time with real life.
100% this. I been gaming since I was in my early teens. I managed to play games while going to high school, being in several clubs and playing sports. I also managed time to go outside and play with friends.
In my 20's I managed to get into an IT Career then started going back to school via online classes for 2 degrees. I still was very able to play Vanilla WOW or TBC with out LFD tools, and instances that took an hour or 2 to complete. While I worked 60+ hours a week took 2 to 3 classes online I still managed during Vanilla and TBC to get some raid progression done and hard time consuming content done.
Now I am almost 35. Finished my Degrees, working in the IT field for 11 years, have a wife that plays MMOs with me, and 3 kids. I still manage to find time to play with friends who are not 3 time zones from me even if its only for 2 hours a week. I also find time to get in 8 to 10 hours a week a week of gaming. I put my 1 and 2 year old down in bed at 730 pm and I am gaming until about 930 pm 2 to 3 days a week. I get some more hours during the weekend and still manage to get content. done. I also do not expect every night to get into an instance because that is were friends come in and its time to chill with my friends. Yes they are friends even if I have not met most of them. I still have known many of them for 8+ years.
I dont need Fast food 15 minute instances because to me that is a waste of time. 30 to 45 minute instances which take a bit of coordination while we check on TS works very well for a casual gamer like myself. The people that always bring up the TIME EXCUSE BULLSHIT I love to tell them to leave MMOs because they dont belong because they want a genera that is built on the Social Aspect and having to work as a TEAM to achieve goals to be dumbed down to playing Angry Birds on their phones while taking a crap. Sorry that type of game does not mix at all with MMOs and that is why the genera is in the toilet.
The only thing MMOs do not need is old time Time sinks like it would take me to jump 3 planets in SWG and could take me up to an hour to get out to point A. We also do not need or want LFD type tools because they take and chance a social game into a lobby based game where they wait in a city wanting an queue to pop every 5 minutes.
I can accept things will take time like raid progression, or instances, even finding a group for the instance. What I cannot accept is fast pace clear shit in weeks and have months to wait for content unless you are the most hardest core of the hardcore players. If you are an average player no you should take months to get through the content.
So tired of this idea that "adults" don't have spare time to pursue their hobbies. The only people who have more time than "adults" with "jobs and families" are basically kids who are in high school and not of working age. Even then its debatable. They're spending 40 hours a week in school and in theory have homework and possibly afterschool activities like sports.
Its just a huge logical fallacy. There is no basis in it whatsoever.
I have a friend who is working on his PHD thesis in computer science (some shit about computing genetics) and STILL finds time to play 5-10 hours of games a week, and he is married and works 50-55 hours a week. Guess what, he hates faceroll easy mode games just as much as i do.
What do you think you will appreciate more, a house you built from the ground up with your own blood sweat and tears (many of those hours non enjoyable and felt a lot like "work"). Or one you bought? Obviously you'll still appreciate and enjoy the house you bought, but its not going to be the same as if you built it yourself.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Well here's the thing, most vets, like myself, in their 30's and 40's have been multi-tasking life and their games since our teens. Only difference being instead of a real job and family, we had, back then, after school homework, sports/recreation, girl/boyfriends and part-time jobs. Case in point, real vets don't need games dumbed down to fit a certain life-style, as we have always factored in our game time with real life.
Calling all cars! Calling all cars!
Availability Cascade in progress at the corner of False Consensus Street and Cognitive Bias Boulevard.
All available units, please respond. Suspect is armed and dangerous. All available units, please respond.
What an awesome quote.
My 2 Coppers:
You see I played EQ day one, I played beta UO, I consider myself a vet. Those games were poorly designed. Contrary to popular assumption here they weren't popular because of corpse runs, real item loss, trains, 48 hour jboot camps or 24 hour naked wipe recoverys from the plane of fear. They were popular because they were the first real 3D persistent worlds we got to see. Wow's rise was a direct result of correcting a good deal of those poorly designed mechanics.
When Dvinn camped the zone line we actually thought we could beat him with enough low level players despite the pile 40+ bodies sitting under him. When someone needed help we just intuitively helped them without concern for kill stealing or mob aggro. We simply didn't know the mechanics so WE WERE FREE TO IMAGINE THIS WAS REAL LIVING BREATHING WORLD. We simply didn't know how route and mechanical the simulation was so we gazed in wonder and astonishment at what we "thought" it was. And for some reason some to this day think that magic is able to be captured again, they think that all of those poorly designed punitive game mechanics were the source of their full on immersion.
One of the few fantastic early design decisions McQuaid made was to not allow players to know the actual formulas for the combat mechanics. He knew rightfully so that Min/Maxing would kill the magic, suspend belief and turn the game into the number chasing skinner boxes we have today.
That said while I do think crusty old vets that hold those old game designs in such high esteem have rose colored lens hindsight, they aren't entirely wrong about their being something off about the current crop. There is an awful lot of "Sugar" in modern MMOs and they are probably a little bit to short attention span focused than is probably healthy for the genre. I place the blame for that squarely on the shoulders of the old crop of MMOs, had they not been so over the top punitive and time sink focused the pendulum wouldn't have swung so hard and fast in the other direction.
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
I do have way more spare time since i started to work. No idea why other students have so much spare time, but i certainly did not. Now i just work my 5-10 hours a day and have plenty of spare time left. Helps that my better half is playing games as well i guess.
Also id much rather spend my day bashing my head against a wall then playing current gen easymodes. There is just no fun to be had for me if failing is not possible and all i do is questing solo. I WANT to group up, i WANT to socialize and i WANT to do dungeons that can not be cleared within a few days. Days? Yes days. You don't have to clear a dungeon in one go.
So no, i don't think the current developers design games for me. And since everyone i see screaming for even easier and shorter content is sub 20, i kinda see a trend on who might be the target.
Originally posted by vandal5627
They seem to think longer, tedious, time consuming, etc is synonymous to challenging and difficult.
You obviously have no idea what people are asking for, or you would not write this at all. If you make CURRENT games longer they would be tedious and time consuming without fun and challenge. I agree.
Back in the EQ days dungeons simply used to be HUGE and FUN.
Tedious? Hell no! It was fun. Not because it was big, but because it was well made AND big. if something is fun, you want more of it. That simple.
Time consuming? Yes, no doubt. But if it is fun, that is no negative point at all.
Challenging? Yes, but not because it was long, but because it was possible to fail and die. Something current MMOs don't offer anymore.
Bottomline: Current MMOs lack the fun and quality to make longer dungeons enjoyable. So i do understand why people want shorter, to get it done and forget it. You can not simply make huge dungeons and think it will succeed. You have to make a game that is fun to play. If you got that everyone will want longer dungeons, more dungeons, less quests, more socialization ect.
On the other hand: if you make a game like we keep getting today,... well. The shorter the better. Get your fast fix and be done with it. Or better yet: don't play at all.
I would like to add another thing to this list which is acualy quite a big thing for me, Simply i miss the unpredictability of the games when in dunguens and the world, New games from WoW onwards pretty much add as much safeguards to the game as possible to stop player from affecting each other which realy dulls the game down a great deal.
If you know whats gonna happen every second of the game it realy kills the excitment factor, Mobs leashes and instancing in one way they ruined some of this unpredictability, Even boss fights in instancing there no external factors u need to worry about its always a set fight and u know what will happen next especialy with the text popping up in the middle of the screen providing instruction on what to do (Which destroy the thinking process for gamers which hurts them in the long run because they never learn these skills anymore on how to deal with unpredictable things), in say games like EQ u occasionaly had pat patrol through boss rooms if u didnt properly prepare or the occasion train to be looking out for. Some of the real challenges in these type of games was seeing how your team or raid group can react to these things and that is some of the true challenges imo.
Of course this came with some griefing elements but in a slower pace game such as EQ and being unable to name change aswell as a group based system to put it simply if you were griefing, ninja looting and downright being a jerk your name would get around the playerbase and u woudlnt get invited to any groups/raid and what not and basicly you will be stuck until u reroll so there was rather little griefing involved i found in those games. (Except for the stories of Fansy the Famous Bard haha where he found an intresting way to fight agaist the larger factions u could say)
There a reason i play PvP based games atm, pref games that have some looting involved aswell. Is simply put the open world PvP gives you that unpredictability that modern games have been lacking by basicly adding patrol mobs to any dunguen/open world experience you need to observe the surrounding for and act accordingly. For example when farming mobs in Darkfall i had to keep an eye out for movements or sounds in the distance that i would normaly ignore in modern games and when i hear those sounds or see somone trying to sneak up or even have that feeling of being watched you then have a choice to decide quickly.
-Do i finish this mob off and loot and run?
- Do i drop agro heal up and get rdy to engage?
- Do i just leave with what i have from farming before they have a chance to jumo me while fighting and risk loosing it?
- Do i think im in a stratigic position or place where i feel i can use the mobs spawn agaist him and take him out?
- Do i try hiding till the threat passes?
and so on, most people have a plan for this situation in spawns the visit often depending on the situation that they encounter they learned these thing from playing these types of games and its a skill many people dont have any more due to the current systems. People develop these skills when they need to atm they need very little skills developed due to the game telling them what to do which leads to more dumbed down games to accominate those players atleast the devs think so, which realy isnt the case if somone is persistant enough and willing to try games that come with some risks/unpredictabilities they will develop skill to counter act or minimise the effects when they arise. Which makes them better games in general able to handle harder situations atm were just going the opposite its almost to the point that the games these day lituraly play them self using the player to press the buttons for them.
Game want player to do this player does/moves to the spot the game wants them to be why not just cut the player out and make a script to play the game for you (would cut out human error and most likly get further in raid dunguens faster than a normal player) like realy thats where were at atm which is a realy sad state of affairs for gamers
You see I played EQ day one, I played beta UO, I consider myself a vet. Those games were poorly designed. Contrary to popular assumption here they weren't popular because of corpse runs, real item loss, trains, 48 hour jboot camps or 24 hour naked wipe recoverys from the plane of fear. They were popular because they were the first real 3D persistent worlds we got to see. Wow's rise was a direct result of correcting a good deal of those poorly designed mechanics.
When Dvinn camped the zone line we actually thought we could beat him with enough low level players despite the pile 40+ bodies sitting under him. When someone needed help we just intuitively helped them without concern for kill stealing or mob aggro. We simply didn't know the mechanics so WE WERE FREE TO IMAGINE THIS WAS REAL LIVING BREATHING WORLD. We simply didn't know how route and mechanical the simulation was so we gazed in wonder and astonishment at what we "thought" it was. And for some reason some to this day think that magic is able to be captured again, they think that all of those poorly designed punitive game mechanics were the source of their full on immersion.
One of the few fantastic early design decisions McQuaid made was to not allow players to know the actual formulas for the combat mechanics. He knew rightfully so that Min/Maxing would kill the magic, suspend belief and turn the game into the number chasing skinner boxes we have today.
That said while I do think crusty old vets that hold those old game designs in such high esteem have rose colored lens hindsight, they aren't entirely wrong about their being something off about the current crop. There is an awful lot of "Sugar" in modern MMOs and they are probably a little bit to short attention span focused than is probably healthy for the genre. I place the blame for that squarely on the shoulders of the old crop of MMOs, had they not been so over the top punitive and time sink focused the pendulum wouldn't have swung so hard and fast in the other direction.
What you call poorly designed, I call brilliant. Nothing since then has offered a virtual world that was even close to as engaging. No longer do players need each other or is there a feeling of danger or mystery surrounding the world. Was EQ lacking in some areas, absolutely. The lack of abilities of melees was a big one off the top of my head. Yet for every weak point like that, theres a half dozen strong points that created an entirely different experience than anything you would find in modern themepark games. Even in vanilla WoW that you claim "corrected" mistakes, introduced even more mistakes and removed many of the important elements that together created a virtual world rather than just another video game. If you really don't see that, you either haven't given it much thought or you didn't actually play those games which you claim to have played.
They seem to think longer, tedious, time consuming, etc is synonymous to challenging and difficult.
You obviously have no idea what people are asking for, or you would not write this at all. If you make CURRENT games longer they would be tedious and time consuming without fun and challenge. I agree.
Back in the EQ days dungeons simply used to be HUGE and FUN.
Tedious? Hell no! It was fun. Not because it was big, but because it was well made AND big. if something is fun, you want more of it. That simple.
Time consuming? Yes, no doubt. But if it is fun, that is no negative point at all.
Challenging? Yes, but not because it was long, but because it was possible to fail and die. Something current MMOs don't offer anymore.
Bottomline: Current MMOs lack the fun and quality to make longer dungeons enjoyable. So i do understand why people want shorter, to get it done and forget it. You can not simply make huge dungeons and think it will succeed. You have to make a game that is fun to play. If you got that everyone will want longer dungeons, more dungeons, less quests, more socialization ect.
On the other hand: if you make a game like we keep getting today,... well. The shorter the better. Get your fast fix and be done with it. Or better yet: don't play at all.
LMAO We got a badass here. Noone knows what a fun game is except for him. Too funny.
They seem to think longer, tedious, time consuming, etc is synonymous to challenging and difficult.
You obviously have no idea what people are asking for, or you would not write this at all. If you make CURRENT games longer they would be tedious and time consuming without fun and challenge. I agree.
Back in the EQ days dungeons simply used to be HUGE and FUN.
Tedious? Hell no! It was fun. Not because it was big, but because it was well made AND big. if something is fun, you want more of it. That simple.
Time consuming? Yes, no doubt. But if it is fun, that is no negative point at all.
Challenging? Yes, but not because it was long, but because it was possible to fail and die. Something current MMOs don't offer anymore.
Bottomline: Current MMOs lack the fun and quality to make longer dungeons enjoyable. So i do understand why people want shorter, to get it done and forget it. You can not simply make huge dungeons and think it will succeed. You have to make a game that is fun to play. If you got that everyone will want longer dungeons, more dungeons, less quests, more socialization ect.
On the other hand: if you make a game like we keep getting today,... well. The shorter the better. Get your fast fix and be done with it. Or better yet: don't play at all.
LMAO We got a badass here. Noone knows what a fun game is except for him. Too funny.
Really, thats your best retort? I think I have some straws here you can grasp at.
Comments
Put simply, older gamers are used to having puzzles to figure out, lore to read, areas to explore, and more to do than just collecting loot. Younger gamers only care about an extra +1 to their purple pants of epic purpleness, and would be happy to just have a "dungeon" that's a painting of a scary boss mob with a red button under it, and a loot dispenser chute.
Yeah its great when people talk about things they have no clue about. If I am a mechanic and you are a gardener, and you tell me what being a mechanic is or was like... Im just gonna have to ignore you. Just get over it dude. Opinions are opinions. But this guy made up a thread on something so small, presented it as a bigger deal than it was, stated his opinion, and I stated mine. Don't like it, don't read it. I don't tell people not to post just because I don't like what they say. Get over yourself.
I'm sure you're the one that needs to get over yourself.
I think Wildstar proved this isn't the case. The "mmo vets" ask for it, and when they get it they say its too hard. Personally I'm fine with the new generation that allows me to be with my family and not have to work them around a raid schedule, or work hours to be attuned for an instance.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Sure, and maybe UO didn't aggressively try to monetize that business model. But by EQ1 and AC in 1999, there was no doubt that developers were pushing hard on timesinks to chase after that money.
"Timesink" is only used to indicate a bad gameplay/time ratio. It's basically the same as grind -- these terms simply don't get used except when the gameplay/time ratio is bad. regarding gaming before MMORPGs because games were extremely generous in providing a lot of gameplay for every hour invested.
MMORPGs aren't timesinks by definition. In fact, one of the larger factors behind WOW's success is how much more gameplay it provided per hour, compared with its competitors. A ratio which has improved considerably over the years (at launch it was noticeably better than competitors, but admittedly still pretty bad by the standards of other genres.)
So nobody measures those dungeons based on the length of time they take but they measure it based on the amount of gameplay/fun they're going to experience relative to the time required. The 90+ minute world dungeons I experienced in early MMORPGs were total crap compared with one of WOW's 15 minute dungeons.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No wonder we can't have world peace.
Aren't you doing what others are doing and essentially speaking FOR other people?
Is it really so hard for everyone to realize that different people get "jazzed" for different things?
It's how people are wired.
I have friends who believe that for every moment you spend playing a video game you could be doing something that is actually worthwhile.
Who is right?
As a side note ...
Did anyone ever think that it's not about having dungeons/activities that are just "long" but having dungeons/activities that are long so that they can be in a social situation/have experiences with people they actually like for that amount of time?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Fake vets ? So anyone not thinking like you is a fake vet ? I want more challenging and exciting content that last forever. I want it to take months to get to the top. I want a virtual world to live in, even if on certain days I only have 15 minutes to be in it.
Nice post
The dungeons of old games and new ones can't really be compared. They were two different things. The old games were open dungeons people could spend any amount of time killing things. The newer ones are instances that have a set amount of content. Some are quick, some not so much.
When the older games started using instances, like EQ with ldon, those were actually pretty quick. They were also timed, think had up to 1.5 hours, but I often remember running through many of them under 30 minutes. I liked both the longer and shorter instances.
As far as the dungeons, I liked the HUGE dungeons you could camp for several hours or just 1 hour depending on your time because that was camping, where people gained exp. If I have a big block of time to play, I rather find a group and keep killing in the same area, moving depending on what camps open up than queue for an instance for 30 minutes, fight for 15minutes, then queue again for another 30 minutes, lol. I find that more tedious, the long wait of doing nothing to then only play for a short period.
Now I know some people hate the LFD, but I kind of like it, even with the awful waits sometimes. Still prefer open dungeon camps though. Back in WoW, don't think I ever did dungeons until end game, but when I played again after lfd, I was able to level by dungeons and that was just more fun, when I didn't have long waits, lol.
In FXIV I like the way the groups and dungeons are done. You can do the LFD and wait possibly a long time for a group, but you can also easily form a group or join one by search. Even if you don't fill all the spots, can just queue to get the rest of the people. The system just seems smoother than what I remember of WoW's.
It should be set in bronze as the Nerd MMORPG Creed. /salute!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
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There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That would just make new games longer and more tedious, but still not what is wanted. I think vets want the older game style which included longer leveling and more difficult fights, but particularly non-instanced and more group oriented gameplay.
Though today's games and older games are in the same MMORPG category, they are very different games. Trying to compare them just by length of playtime is the wrong comparison.
Your friends are right. Absolutely.
I think its time I took their advice. Thanks.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
So tired of this idea that "adults" don't have spare time to pursue their hobbies. The only people who have more time than "adults" with "jobs and families" are basically kids who are in high school and not of working age. Even then its debatable. They're spending 40 hours a week in school and in theory have homework and possibly afterschool activities like sports.
Its just a huge logical fallacy. There is no basis in it whatsoever.
I have a friend who is working on his PHD thesis in computer science (some shit about computing genetics) and STILL finds time to play 5-10 hours of games a week, and he is married and works 50-55 hours a week. Guess what, he hates faceroll easy mode games just as much as i do.
What do you think you will appreciate more, a house you built from the ground up with your own blood sweat and tears (many of those hours non enjoyable and felt a lot like "work"). Or one you bought? Obviously you'll still appreciate and enjoy the house you bought, but its not going to be the same as if you built it yourself.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
What an awesome quote.
My 2 Coppers:
You see I played EQ day one, I played beta UO, I consider myself a vet. Those games were poorly designed. Contrary to popular assumption here they weren't popular because of corpse runs, real item loss, trains, 48 hour jboot camps or 24 hour naked wipe recoverys from the plane of fear. They were popular because they were the first real 3D persistent worlds we got to see. Wow's rise was a direct result of correcting a good deal of those poorly designed mechanics.
When Dvinn camped the zone line we actually thought we could beat him with enough low level players despite the pile 40+ bodies sitting under him. When someone needed help we just intuitively helped them without concern for kill stealing or mob aggro. We simply didn't know the mechanics so WE WERE FREE TO IMAGINE THIS WAS REAL LIVING BREATHING WORLD. We simply didn't know how route and mechanical the simulation was so we gazed in wonder and astonishment at what we "thought" it was. And for some reason some to this day think that magic is able to be captured again, they think that all of those poorly designed punitive game mechanics were the source of their full on immersion.
One of the few fantastic early design decisions McQuaid made was to not allow players to know the actual formulas for the combat mechanics. He knew rightfully so that Min/Maxing would kill the magic, suspend belief and turn the game into the number chasing skinner boxes we have today.
That said while I do think crusty old vets that hold those old game designs in such high esteem have rose colored lens hindsight, they aren't entirely wrong about their being something off about the current crop. There is an awful lot of "Sugar" in modern MMOs and they are probably a little bit to short attention span focused than is probably healthy for the genre. I place the blame for that squarely on the shoulders of the old crop of MMOs, had they not been so over the top punitive and time sink focused the pendulum wouldn't have swung so hard and fast in the other direction.
I would like to add another thing to this list which is acualy quite a big thing for me, Simply i miss the unpredictability of the games when in dunguens and the world, New games from WoW onwards pretty much add as much safeguards to the game as possible to stop player from affecting each other which realy dulls the game down a great deal.
If you know whats gonna happen every second of the game it realy kills the excitment factor, Mobs leashes and instancing in one way they ruined some of this unpredictability, Even boss fights in instancing there no external factors u need to worry about its always a set fight and u know what will happen next especialy with the text popping up in the middle of the screen providing instruction on what to do (Which destroy the thinking process for gamers which hurts them in the long run because they never learn these skills anymore on how to deal with unpredictable things), in say games like EQ u occasionaly had pat patrol through boss rooms if u didnt properly prepare or the occasion train to be looking out for. Some of the real challenges in these type of games was seeing how your team or raid group can react to these things and that is some of the true challenges imo.
Of course this came with some griefing elements but in a slower pace game such as EQ and being unable to name change aswell as a group based system to put it simply if you were griefing, ninja looting and downright being a jerk your name would get around the playerbase and u woudlnt get invited to any groups/raid and what not and basicly you will be stuck until u reroll so there was rather little griefing involved i found in those games. (Except for the stories of Fansy the Famous Bard haha where he found an intresting way to fight agaist the larger factions u could say)
There a reason i play PvP based games atm, pref games that have some looting involved aswell. Is simply put the open world PvP gives you that unpredictability that modern games have been lacking by basicly adding patrol mobs to any dunguen/open world experience you need to observe the surrounding for and act accordingly. For example when farming mobs in Darkfall i had to keep an eye out for movements or sounds in the distance that i would normaly ignore in modern games and when i hear those sounds or see somone trying to sneak up or even have that feeling of being watched you then have a choice to decide quickly.
-Do i finish this mob off and loot and run?
- Do i drop agro heal up and get rdy to engage?
- Do i just leave with what i have from farming before they have a chance to jumo me while fighting and risk loosing it?
- Do i think im in a stratigic position or place where i feel i can use the mobs spawn agaist him and take him out?
- Do i try hiding till the threat passes?
and so on, most people have a plan for this situation in spawns the visit often depending on the situation that they encounter they learned these thing from playing these types of games and its a skill many people dont have any more due to the current systems. People develop these skills when they need to atm they need very little skills developed due to the game telling them what to do which leads to more dumbed down games to accominate those players atleast the devs think so, which realy isnt the case if somone is persistant enough and willing to try games that come with some risks/unpredictabilities they will develop skill to counter act or minimise the effects when they arise. Which makes them better games in general able to handle harder situations atm were just going the opposite its almost to the point that the games these day lituraly play them self using the player to press the buttons for them.
Game want player to do this player does/moves to the spot the game wants them to be why not just cut the player out and make a script to play the game for you (would cut out human error and most likly get further in raid dunguens faster than a normal player) like realy thats where were at atm which is a realy sad state of affairs for gamers
What you call poorly designed, I call brilliant. Nothing since then has offered a virtual world that was even close to as engaging. No longer do players need each other or is there a feeling of danger or mystery surrounding the world. Was EQ lacking in some areas, absolutely. The lack of abilities of melees was a big one off the top of my head. Yet for every weak point like that, theres a half dozen strong points that created an entirely different experience than anything you would find in modern themepark games. Even in vanilla WoW that you claim "corrected" mistakes, introduced even more mistakes and removed many of the important elements that together created a virtual world rather than just another video game. If you really don't see that, you either haven't given it much thought or you didn't actually play those games which you claim to have played.
LMAO We got a badass here. Noone knows what a fun game is except for him. Too funny.
Really, thats your best retort? I think I have some straws here you can grasp at.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
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