but discussin should be about is PnP feeling possible in "persistant MMO world". Farming same boss for a drop, for instance, almost instant respawns and whole "persistancy" goes against everything PnP stand for.
Why? None of those things, pnp feeling nor persistent MMO world, are central to MMOs. The pnp feeling is never there ... not from the start. EQ is about camping static respawn, and UO is about nonstop griefing.
And many modern MMOs don't even put in a persistent virtual world.
Some MMOs are about being a more online-y action RPG. Some are about e-sports. Some are about lots of solo content. We should talk about all of those.
They seem to think longer, tedious, time consuming, etc is synonymous to challenging and difficult.
When you are having fun and enjoying an activity, being able to spend more time is a bonus, not a chore.
If you find playing MMORPG's to be tedious, perhaps you have the wrong hobby.
right ... and i find down-time, slow travel, having to chat to group .... tedious .. so i don't play games with those design, MMO or not.
However, not all MMOs are likely, are they? Many are like lobby games. Otherwise, i would be in the "wrong hobby".
Dear god could you try and set it up any better by saying your in the wrong hobby...
I was .. in the EQ days .. hence i quit. Now i think those who want the old school forced grouping, slow travel, with lots of down-time games are in the wrong hobby .. since MMOs have evolved away from that.
I'm starting to think that these people need to go back to consoles. Doing that would solve all of their issues. They want to be a MMO gamer so bad, but can't do it. They need to admit this to themselves and go back. Will never happen, but....
Or, lets just make all MMOs like console games because I only have 15 minutes to play. It's all that my mommy allows on school nights.
You have it in reverse.
It is MMO devs who want to cater to the console gamers and make MMOs more like console gamers.
Console gamers probably wouldn't care less about MMOs, and they only play them when they cater to their preferences enough.
But what does that have to do with challenges?
Again, still no one can dispute that running high greater rift in D3 .. a 15 min activity .. is very challenging.
I agree with this, at least partially. I think the old school MMORPG players were much closer to arcade game players. They equated challenge to dying and having to put another quarter in and start over, There were arcade games that could make you sweat bullets because of death penalty was so severe. I could play battlezone for an hour on a quarter so long battles where you had to have skill to survive were common.
Whether they are console players or just a different kind of group, I think modern MMORPGs cater to a much larger group, including many people who didn't care for arcade games, or sports, or card games, etc. They have totally different concepts of "fun" and to many it is just seeing what is around the corner. It is the themepark not the sandbox.
Get those two groups together in a discussion board and they are talking at cross purposes. They won't agree on what "fun" even means.
Ok being a veteran of consoles going back to the Atari and arcade centers I can see this point as valid. permadeath in consoles and arcade games is a given that we grew up with. When the MMORPGs started in the early 2000's many of us had already converted to PC games... Hell I was a fan of Wing Commander and have been on PC ever since.
Now fast forward 15 years and I have watched what were good quality games with alot of thought put into them come and go. Now all I see are games that are just a copy of another idea. A lot of IPs turned into games, some of which would have done amazingly if it werent for corporate greed (Stargate Worlds) Other IPs were just dragged through the mud on monotony (Star Trek Online).
but one thing that never changes and is also one of the most challenged and negatively targeted ideas is permadeath in MMOs. Diablo 2 had permadeath in Hardcore mode and those of us who loved the challenge died many times in there. hell several of my buddies and I would create characters and run through just to see how far we could make it before we were all dead. Hell we used to place bets on where a particular player would die.
It was fun.
yet today if you bring up Permadeath in an MMO discussion you are flamed, trolled, and basically treated like a red headed step child at a family reunion... Ive seen it get down right disgusting. Now its not something new, dont get me wrong.. alot of this started post 2008.
When the player base changed dramatically. Those of us who playeed prior to 2008 remember good conversations, no trolls, no flame wars, if someone asked for help there would be multiple answers from the population... That all changed when the gaming industry did.
Activision merged with Blizzard in 2008 that year ring a bell? that was also the year of the mass advertising campaign of Blizzard and release of the following expansion.. Wrath of the Lich King. The industry changed at that merge. It was a historical moment that went almost unnoticed as game design afterward changed for better or worse.
many who played World of Warcraft through the first expansion Burning Crusade and went on to play Wrath of the lich King and its follow up Cataclysm saw the changes being made. Many left the game to not come back. Blizzard has lost more subs than they care to admit because of this decision, yet many believe it was a good move by Blizzard and Bobby Kotick to merge.
However since that time the quality of games declined and all the ones we remember for having game changing mechanics and amazing stories have faded away. The run of the mill WoW/EQ/UO clone is what we see released. E3 has become a joke for the mmo industry... The consoles are gaining more interest.. not because they are almost at the level of PC's but that they have better games being developed again...
So do Veterans miss the content, quality, and game style of the past.. Why the hell wouldnt they.. Those games were better in damn near every respect. Sure graphically they suffer today.. but overall with a remastering they can be back to whrer they once were and still bring in the millions.
Hell if Final Fantasy VII ever gets a remake itll be the highest selling game in history only because the demand for it is humungous.
I'm starting to think that these people need to go back to consoles. Doing that would solve all of their issues. They want to be a MMO gamer so bad, but can't do it. They need to admit this to themselves and go back. Will never happen, but....
Or, lets just make all MMOs like console games because I only have 15 minutes to play. It's all that my mommy allows on school nights.
You have it in reverse.
It is MMO devs who want to cater to the console gamers and make MMOs more like console gamers.
Console gamers probably wouldn't care less about MMOs, and they only play them when they cater to their preferences enough.
But what does that have to do with challenges?
Again, still no one can dispute that running high greater rift in D3 .. a 15 min activity .. is very challenging.
I agree with this, at least partially. I think the old school MMORPG players were much closer to arcade game players. They equated challenge to dying and having to put another quarter in and start over, There were arcade games that could make you sweat bullets because of death penalty was so severe. I could play battlezone for an hour on a quarter so long battles where you had to have skill to survive were common.
Whether they are console players or just a different kind of group, I think modern MMORPGs cater to a much larger group, including many people who didn't care for arcade games, or sports, or card games, etc. They have totally different concepts of "fun" and to many it is just seeing what is around the corner. It is the themepark not the sandbox.
Get those two groups together in a discussion board and they are talking at cross purposes. They won't agree on what "fun" even means.
Ok being a veteran of consoles going back to the Atari and arcade centers I can see this point as valid. permadeath in consoles and arcade games is a given that we grew up with. When the MMORPGs started in the early 2000's many of us had already converted to PC games... Hell I was a fan of Wing Commander and have been on PC ever since.
Now fast forward 15 years and I have watched what were good quality games with alot of thought put into them come and go. Now all I see are games that are just a copy of another idea. A lot of IPs turned into games, some of which would have done amazingly if it werent for corporate greed (Stargate Worlds) Other IPs were just dragged through the mud on monotony (Star Trek Online).
but one thing that never changes and is also one of the most challenged and negatively targeted ideas is permadeath in MMOs. Diablo 2 had permadeath in Hardcore mode and those of us who loved the challenge died many times in there. hell several of my buddies and I would create characters and run through just to see how far we could make it before we were all dead. Hell we used to place bets on where a particular player would die.
It was fun.
yet today if you bring up Permadeath in an MMO discussion you are flamed, trolled, and basically treated like a red headed step child at a family reunion... Ive seen it get down right disgusting. Now its not something new, dont get me wrong.. alot of this started post 2008.
When the player base changed dramatically. Those of us who playeed prior to 2008 remember good conversations, no trolls, no flame wars, if someone asked for help there would be multiple answers from the population... That all changed when the gaming industry did.
Activision merged with Blizzard in 2008 that year ring a bell? that was also the year of the mass advertising campaign of Blizzard and release of the following expansion.. Wrath of the Lich King. The industry changed at that merge. It was a historical moment that went almost unnoticed as game design afterward changed for better or worse.
many who played World of Warcraft through the first expansion Burning Crusade and went on to play Wrath of the lich King and its follow up Cataclysm saw the changes being made. Many left the game to not come back. Blizzard has lost more subs than they care to admit because of this decision, yet many believe it was a good move by Blizzard and Bobby Kotick to merge.
However since that time the quality of games declined and all the ones we remember for having game changing mechanics and amazing stories have faded away. The run of the mill WoW/EQ/UO clone is what we see released. E3 has become a joke for the mmo industry... The consoles are gaining more interest.. not because they are almost at the level of PC's but that they have better games being developed again...
So do Veterans miss the content, quality, and game style of the past.. Why the hell wouldnt they.. Those games were better in damn near every respect. Sure graphically they suffer today.. but overall with a remastering they can be back to whrer they once were and still bring in the millions.
Hell if Final Fantasy VII ever gets a remake itll be the highest selling game in history only because the demand for it is humungous.
make character, die, delete, make new one.......theres your permadeath
does game really have to have button "permadeath"
so much talk about how "creative" vets are, but continuous posting shows....not so much.
Blizzard lost more subs than ever when they tried to make things "challenging" again in Cata.
And FFVII did get a remake, you can buy it on Steam or SQIX store. While it did sell decently, demand is so humogous that you dont even know about it. Also they did VIII iirc.
but one thing that never changes and is also one of the most challenged and negatively targeted ideas is permadeath in MMOs. Diablo 2 had permadeath in Hardcore mode and those of us who loved the challenge died many times in there. hell several of my buddies and I would create characters and run through just to see how far we could make it before we were all dead. Hell we used to place bets on where a particular player would die.
So do Veterans miss the content, quality, and game style of the past.. Why the hell wouldnt they.. Those games were better in damn near every respect. Sure graphically they suffer today.. but overall with a remastering they can be back to whrer they once were and still bring in the millions.
Then play D3 .. the PD HC mode is still there.
No those games were "better' for you ... worse for the audience they are targeting now. No one owes you (or veterans) a game they like.
Comments
Why? None of those things, pnp feeling nor persistent MMO world, are central to MMOs. The pnp feeling is never there ... not from the start. EQ is about camping static respawn, and UO is about nonstop griefing.
And many modern MMOs don't even put in a persistent virtual world.
Some MMOs are about being a more online-y action RPG. Some are about e-sports. Some are about lots of solo content. We should talk about all of those.
When you are having fun and enjoying an activity, being able to spend more time is a bonus, not a chore.
If you find playing MMORPG's to be tedious, perhaps you have the wrong hobby.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
right ... and i find down-time, slow travel, having to chat to group .... tedious .. so i don't play games with those design, MMO or not.
However, not all MMOs are likely, are they? Many are like lobby games. Otherwise, i would be in the "wrong hobby".
Dear god could you try and set it up any better by saying your in the wrong hobby...
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I was .. in the EQ days .. hence i quit. Now i think those who want the old school forced grouping, slow travel, with lots of down-time games are in the wrong hobby .. since MMOs have evolved away from that.
Ok being a veteran of consoles going back to the Atari and arcade centers I can see this point as valid. permadeath in consoles and arcade games is a given that we grew up with. When the MMORPGs started in the early 2000's many of us had already converted to PC games... Hell I was a fan of Wing Commander and have been on PC ever since.
Now fast forward 15 years and I have watched what were good quality games with alot of thought put into them come and go. Now all I see are games that are just a copy of another idea. A lot of IPs turned into games, some of which would have done amazingly if it werent for corporate greed (Stargate Worlds) Other IPs were just dragged through the mud on monotony (Star Trek Online).
but one thing that never changes and is also one of the most challenged and negatively targeted ideas is permadeath in MMOs. Diablo 2 had permadeath in Hardcore mode and those of us who loved the challenge died many times in there. hell several of my buddies and I would create characters and run through just to see how far we could make it before we were all dead. Hell we used to place bets on where a particular player would die.
It was fun.
yet today if you bring up Permadeath in an MMO discussion you are flamed, trolled, and basically treated like a red headed step child at a family reunion... Ive seen it get down right disgusting. Now its not something new, dont get me wrong.. alot of this started post 2008.
When the player base changed dramatically. Those of us who playeed prior to 2008 remember good conversations, no trolls, no flame wars, if someone asked for help there would be multiple answers from the population... That all changed when the gaming industry did.
Activision merged with Blizzard in 2008 that year ring a bell? that was also the year of the mass advertising campaign of Blizzard and release of the following expansion.. Wrath of the Lich King. The industry changed at that merge. It was a historical moment that went almost unnoticed as game design afterward changed for better or worse.
many who played World of Warcraft through the first expansion Burning Crusade and went on to play Wrath of the lich King and its follow up Cataclysm saw the changes being made. Many left the game to not come back. Blizzard has lost more subs than they care to admit because of this decision, yet many believe it was a good move by Blizzard and Bobby Kotick to merge.
However since that time the quality of games declined and all the ones we remember for having game changing mechanics and amazing stories have faded away. The run of the mill WoW/EQ/UO clone is what we see released. E3 has become a joke for the mmo industry... The consoles are gaining more interest.. not because they are almost at the level of PC's but that they have better games being developed again...
So do Veterans miss the content, quality, and game style of the past.. Why the hell wouldnt they.. Those games were better in damn near every respect. Sure graphically they suffer today.. but overall with a remastering they can be back to whrer they once were and still bring in the millions.
Hell if Final Fantasy VII ever gets a remake itll be the highest selling game in history only because the demand for it is humungous.
Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT
Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.
Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games
Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery
make character, die, delete, make new one.......theres your permadeath
does game really have to have button "permadeath"
so much talk about how "creative" vets are, but continuous posting shows....not so much.
Blizzard lost more subs than ever when they tried to make things "challenging" again in Cata.
And FFVII did get a remake, you can buy it on Steam or SQIX store. While it did sell decently, demand is so humogous that you dont even know about it. Also they did VIII iirc.
Then play D3 .. the PD HC mode is still there.
No those games were "better' for you ... worse for the audience they are targeting now. No one owes you (or veterans) a game they like.