Originally posted by VengeSunsoar So short sessions are comparable to ugly women but long sessions are comparable to beautiful women.
Alright. This sight just dropped to an entirely new level of stupid.
You could always look at this as some people prefer a 6 hour flight in coach with the general public, to a person who prefers a 20 hour drive to the same destination and you choose who sits next to you and if you want to stop and look at things of interest along the way.
Unless doing the original act is no accomplishment at all, then doing it longer or more times is more challenging. Sorry, it's not opinion its math.
Whether the act involves skill or not, the duration it's done is mostly irrelevant.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 1 time, that's unimpressive.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 100 times, that's still unimpressive.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 10,000 times to earn the "Bridge Walking MASTER" achievement and get the Staff of The Bridge Guardian, then I'm a fool with low standards of entertainment quality...and it's still unimpressive.
Walking the bridge 10k times isn't challenging. It's just as easy as the first time I walked across it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Unless doing the original act is no accomplishment at all, then doing it longer or more times is more challenging. Sorry, it's not opinion its math.
Whether the act involves skill or not, the duration it's done is mostly irrelevant.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 1 time, that's unimpressive.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 100 times, that's still unimpressive.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 10,000 times to earn the "Bridge Walking MASTER" achievement and get the Staff of The Bridge Guardian, then I'm a fool with low standards of entertainment quality...and it's still unimpressive.
Walking the bridge 10k times isn't challenging. It's just as easy as the first time I walked across it.
Exactly. Thanks for putting it this way, it clear, concise and easy to understand. You won't win any arguements or change anyone's minds but this can't really be stated any better than you did.
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
I want SOLO but I do not want to finish it in 15 minutes. I came from an Asheron's Call background in 1999 when I got into this genre, where it took me 12 years to reach level cap. Let that sink in...TWELVE YEARS! I also enjoy questing but not in the fed-ex delivery quests of games like WoW or Wildstar but the detail and attention of Asheron's Call, where the average quest can take 1-2 hours to complete and you have to use corners, proper pulling, the right weapon, pull levers, traverse traps and pitfalls, pick locks and be ready to skip certain mobs cause they aren't worth it. Many elements that go into doing a quest in Asheron's Call with TIME being the main factor so this is why I enjoy longer content. Check my sig.....RPG's are about the journey not the destination.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
LMAO totally proves my point. And no, longer is not synonymous to difficult. You sir, are the one that cannot grasp that concept. Taking a year to get to max level in a game is not difficult. It's tedious. Sitting in one spot for hours every day just to get partial level is not difficult. Taking an hour to run from one zone to another is not difficult. I could go on and on.
You know, reading posts like yours really makes me wonder why I even bother trying to communicate on forums at all.
In my post, which you quoted in its entirety and, presumably, (giving you the benefit of the doubt here) read, I said this...
"Here's the thing. I keep seeing the same strawman arguments being put forth, by a lot of the same names who've been making the same argument for a long time now - even though they've already been told the flaws in their thinking.
The strawman is that older MMO gamers felt "content being longer made it more challenging". No. No, and once more for emphasis... No."
That's a direct quote. Yet, you turn around, and accuse me of saying the very opposite.
Seriously, vandal... WTF?
As for the rest of your post... Look, if you want to have a serious discussion,and you want to address what I've said honestly... without throwing around red herrings and strawmen... then great. We'll try again. If your replies are going to be the same as your last, then just don't bother. I've got better things to do.
Unless doing the original act is no accomplishment at all, then doing it longer or more times is more challenging. Sorry, it's not opinion its math.
Whether the act involves skill or not, the duration it's done is mostly irrelevant.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 1 time, that's unimpressive.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 100 times, that's still unimpressive.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 10,000 times to earn the "Bridge Walking MASTER" achievement and get the Staff of The Bridge Guardian, then I'm a fool with low standards of entertainment quality...and it's still unimpressive.
Walking the bridge 10k times isn't challenging. It's just as easy as the first time I walked across it.
I'm starting to think that these people need to go back to consoles. Doing that would solve all of their issues. They want to be a MMO gamer so bad, but can't do it. They need to admit this to themselves and go back. Will never happen, but....
Or, lets just make all MMOs like console games because I only have 15 minutes to play. It's all that my mommy allows on school nights.
"Go back to console" is a clear sign of someone inexperienced in PC gaming.
Apart from MMORPGs, PC gaming is not and has never been about excessive timesinks.
Please realize you're defending games which involve excessive timesinks, and then charge players for time (subscriptions.) We're not talking about good game design. We're discussing a money grab.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Would you rather have sex with 4 gorgeous and amazing in bed people, that lasted 15 minutes at a time... or spend 60 minutes once with someone who is gorgeous and amazing in bed?
Fixed that for you. Unless, of course, you're working off of the ridiculously poor assumption that a 15-minute dungeon compared to a 60-minute dungeon has worse graphics, lower AI or some other equally absurd premise.
I complete expect a reply of circular logic as to how the 15-minute dungeon is lower quality ("ugly") because it isn't a 60-minute dungeon.
While you are correct that the simple fact its shorter doesnt make it worse. You are committing a logical fallacy as well by assuming the opposite. The graphical quality, AI, etc are not the only defining factors of what makes a dungeon "good".
A short dungeon by definition can not have as much content, or for that matter longer and more challenging fights, there is a simple time constraint. You can't have difficult and engaging mob AI that requires thought because to do a dungeon in 15 minutes you have to be able to AOE tank everything and gib it all down quickly. While a dungeon doesnt need to be 60 minutes to accomplish that either, shortening the time reduces your options, both with AI and content, story, etc.
To tie this back into the intercourse analogy, its like comparing a "quicky" to a normal session involving foreplay, etc etc. Neither is inherently bad, but the latter tends to be more enjoyable for all parties involved. That also doesnt mean the others don't have a place.
The problem is that mmo's only seem to have one or the other. They could have "quicky" dungeons, and they could have "long" dungeons. But instead they make it black or white one or the other and alienate people.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Would you rather have sex with 4 gorgeous and amazing in bed people, that lasted 15 minutes at a time... or spend 60 minutes once with someone who is gorgeous and amazing in bed?
Fixed that for you. Unless, of course, you're working off of the ridiculously poor assumption that a 15-minute dungeon compared to a 60-minute dungeon has worse graphics, lower AI or some other equally absurd premise.
I expect a reply of circular logic as to how the 15-minute dungeon is lower quality ("ugly") because it isn't a 60-minute dungeon.
While you are correct that the simple fact its shorter doesnt make it worse. You are committing a logical fallacy as well by assuming the opposite. The graphical quality, AI, etc are not the only defining factors of what makes a dungeon "good".
A short dungeon by definition can not have as much content, or for that matter longer and more challenging fights, there is a simple time constraint. You can't have difficult and engaging mob AI that requires thought because to do a dungeon in 15 minutes you have to be able to AOE tank everything and gib it all down quickly. While a dungeon doesnt need to be 60 minutes to accomplish that either, shortening the time reduces your options, both with AI and content, story, etc.
Verily thou didst deliver.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm starting to think that these people need to go back to consoles. Doing that would solve all of their issues. They want to be a MMO gamer so bad, but can't do it. They need to admit this to themselves and go back. Will never happen, but....
Or, lets just make all MMOs like console games because I only have 15 minutes to play. It's all that my mommy allows on school nights.
"Go back to console" is a clear sign of someone inexperienced in PC gaming.
Apart from MMORPGs, PC gaming is not and has never been about excessive timesinks.
Please realize you're defending games which involve excessive timesinks, and then charge players for time (subscriptions.) We're not talking about good game design. We're discussing a money grab.
Paying for a provided service does not bother me. Gaming is not a human right.
Would you rather have sex with 4 gorgeous and amazing in bed people, that lasted 15 minutes at a time... or spend 60 minutes once with someone who is gorgeous and amazing in bed?
Fixed that for you. Unless, of course, you're working off of the ridiculously poor assumption that a 15-minute dungeon compared to a 60-minute dungeon has worse graphics, lower AI or some other equally absurd premise.
I expect a reply of circular logic as to how the 15-minute dungeon is lower quality ("ugly") because it isn't a 60-minute dungeon.
While you are correct that the simple fact its shorter doesnt make it worse. You are committing a logical fallacy as well by assuming the opposite. The graphical quality, AI, etc are not the only defining factors of what makes a dungeon "good".
A short dungeon by definition can not have as much content, or for that matter longer and more challenging fights, there is a simple time constraint. You can't have difficult and engaging mob AI that requires thought because to do a dungeon in 15 minutes you have to be able to AOE tank everything and gib it all down quickly. While a dungeon doesnt need to be 60 minutes to accomplish that either, shortening the time reduces your options, both with AI and content, story, etc.
Verily thou didst deliver.
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not. I also updated the post you quoted with a bit of additional info just to better support my meaning.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Unless doing the original act is no accomplishment at all, then doing it longer or more times is more challenging. Sorry, it's not opinion its math.
Whether the act involves skill or not, the duration it's done is mostly irrelevant.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 1 time, that's unimpressive.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 100 times, that's still unimpressive.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 10,000 times to earn the "Bridge Walking MASTER" achievement and get the Staff of The Bridge Guardian, then I'm a fool with low standards of entertainment quality...and it's still unimpressive.
Walking the bridge 10k times isn't challenging. It's just as easy as the first time I walked across it.
What is a challenge to you?
That strawman analogy gives me the stark impression that crossing the bridge once would be a challenge to him.
For games I usually define challenge as the amount of skill required to succeed. The actual dictionary definition is a little broader: "a call to take part in a contest or competition." Not all contests involve skill, so while I might begrudgingly concede that you could call non-skill things challenges, it's the skill involved in a challenge which provides the meaning.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Unless doing the original act is no accomplishment at all, then doing it longer or more times is more challenging. Sorry, it's not opinion its math.
Whether the act involves skill or not, the duration it's done is mostly irrelevant.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 1 time, that's unimpressive.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 100 times, that's still unimpressive.
If I walk back and forth across a bridge 10,000 times to earn the "Bridge Walking MASTER" achievement and get the Staff of The Bridge Guardian, then I'm a fool with low standards of entertainment quality...and it's still unimpressive.
Walking the bridge 10k times isn't challenging. It's just as easy as the first time I walked across it.
What is a challenge to you?
That strawman analogy gives me the stark impression that crossing the bridge once would be a challenge to him.
Yeah, I don't understand it at all.
Even HE says that crossing a bridge 10,000 times is stupid. But, if he decides to do it, even though it will suck, will it not be a challenge?
Isn't that what a challenge is, something that sucks that you have to overcome in order to achieve your goal?
I guess landing on the moon wasn't a challenge either. Like, big deal and they were sitting down inside the rocket the whole time.
I guess the term "challenge" is suggestive now on this site. I'll just add it to the long list of other suggestive terms.
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
Actually for me as I grow older I see less days I get to play- which means I lack the ability to raid everyday, but the longer I get to play when I do log on the game. (Work long days- but do not work many days... 7 days every 2 weeks- week 1-5days, week 2 2days)
So in essence longer more difficult content suits me because I have the time to do it. Whereas quick 5-10min solo/grp runs then LFG again gets boring real quick when I have a few hours to play.... I also do not really look to play a game when a short time frame to play... it is difficult for me to get into the game if I can only play for a few minutes. I more than likely will not even log on a game if I do not have 2+ hours to spare.
Really do not get where you come up with we have less time. When you are younger high school etc you spend 35 hours a week in school. Most hourly employees (exceptions- truck drivers etc) work 40 hours a week and most salary look at 50 hour weeks (give or take depending on how fortunate you are or how ambitious you are running your own company)
Chances are regardless of age you still have family obligations. Whether its self chosen or forced by your parents, your children or your spouse. Also, the older you get even starting in high school the less time you will share off with friends which means you will probably spend less time there. I know most of my friends do not start their days at 1AM.
For games I usually define challenge as the amount of skill required to succeed. The actual dictionary definition is a little broader: "a call to take part in a contest or competition." Not all contests involve skill, so while I might begrudgingly concede that you could call non-skill things challenges, it's the skill involved in a challenge which provides the meaning.
Would getting bored or distracted be considered a mental challenge?
Solitary confinement in the dark for long periods of time can be a challenge, that is all mental.
I'm starting to think that these people need to go back to consoles. Doing that would solve all of their issues. They want to be a MMO gamer so bad, but can't do it. They need to admit this to themselves and go back. Will never happen, but....
Or, lets just make all MMOs like console games because I only have 15 minutes to play. It's all that my mommy allows on school nights.
"Go back to console" is a clear sign of someone inexperienced in PC gaming.
Apart from MMORPGs, PC gaming is not and has never been about excessive timesinks.
Please realize you're defending games which involve excessive timesinks, and then charge players for time (subscriptions.) We're not talking about good game design. We're discussing a money grab.
Unfortunately, good game design boils down to personal taste. What's good for one gamer isn't for another and sometimes developers make something they like that no one else does. Excessive times sinks are for you what is considered a reasonable pace for others. Money grabs occur in every form of entertainment, fast paced or not, hardcore or casual, old school or new.
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
They seem to think longer, tedious, time consuming, etc is synonymous to challenging and difficult.
Your the guy that reads cliff notes of novels and doesn't understand why anyone would want to read an entire book. Because novels are longer, tedious and time consuming to navigate............
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
Well here's the thing, most vets, like myself, in their 30's and 40's have been multi-tasking life and their games since our teens. Only difference being instead of a real job and family, we had, back then, after school homework, sports/recreation, girl/boyfriends and part-time jobs. Case in point, real vets don't need games dumbed down to fit a certain life-style, as we have always factored in our game time with real life.
100% this. I been gaming since I was in my early teens. I managed to play games while going to high school, being in several clubs and playing sports. I also managed time to go outside and play with friends.
In my 20's I managed to get into an IT Career then started going back to school via online classes for 2 degrees. I still was very able to play Vanilla WOW or TBC with out LFD tools, and instances that took an hour or 2 to complete. While I worked 60+ hours a week took 2 to 3 classes online I still managed during Vanilla and TBC to get some raid progression done and hard time consuming content done.
Now I am almost 35. Finished my Degrees, working in the IT field for 11 years, have a wife that plays MMOs with me, and 3 kids. I still manage to find time to play with friends who are not 3 time zones from me even if its only for 2 hours a week. I also find time to get in 8 to 10 hours a week a week of gaming. I put my 1 and 2 year old down in bed at 730 pm and I am gaming until about 930 pm 2 to 3 days a week. I get some more hours during the weekend and still manage to get content. done. I also do not expect every night to get into an instance because that is were friends come in and its time to chill with my friends. Yes they are friends even if I have not met most of them. I still have known many of them for 8+ years.
I dont need Fast food 15 minute instances because to me that is a waste of time. 30 to 45 minute instances which take a bit of coordination while we check on TS works very well for a casual gamer like myself. The people that always bring up the TIME EXCUSE BULLSHIT I love to tell them to leave MMOs because they dont belong because they want a genera that is built on the Social Aspect and having to work as a TEAM to achieve goals to be dumbed down to playing Angry Birds on their phones while taking a crap. Sorry that type of game does not mix at all with MMOs and that is why the genera is in the toilet.
The only thing MMOs do not need is old time Time sinks like it would take me to jump 3 planets in SWG and could take me up to an hour to get out to point A. We also do not need or want LFD type tools because they take and chance a social game into a lobby based game where they wait in a city wanting an queue to pop every 5 minutes.
I can accept things will take time like raid progression, or instances, even finding a group for the instance. What I cannot accept is fast pace clear shit in weeks and have months to wait for content unless you are the most hardest core of the hardcore players. If you are an average player no you should take months to get through the content.
Wow, I was just thinking the first computer I saw was in high school and had punch cards and magnetic tape. About the size of refrigerators.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
Well here's the thing, most vets, like myself, in their 30's and 40's have been multi-tasking life and their games since our teens. Only difference being instead of a real job and family, we had, back then, after school homework, sports/recreation, girl/boyfriends and part-time jobs. Case in point, real vets don't need games dumbed down to fit a certain life-style, as we have always factored in our game time with real life.
100% this. I been gaming since I was in my early teens. I managed to play games while going to high school, being in several clubs and playing sports. I also managed time to go outside and play with friends.
In my 20's I managed to get into an IT Career then started going back to school via online classes for 2 degrees. I still was very able to play Vanilla WOW or TBC with out LFD tools, and instances that took an hour or 2 to complete. While I worked 60+ hours a week took 2 to 3 classes online I still managed during Vanilla and TBC to get some raid progression done and hard time consuming content done.
Now I am almost 35. Finished my Degrees, working in the IT field for 11 years, have a wife that plays MMOs with me, and 3 kids. I still manage to find time to play with friends who are not 3 time zones from me even if its only for 2 hours a week. I also find time to get in 8 to 10 hours a week a week of gaming. I put my 1 and 2 year old down in bed at 730 pm and I am gaming until about 930 pm 2 to 3 days a week. I get some more hours during the weekend and still manage to get content. done. I also do not expect every night to get into an instance because that is were friends come in and its time to chill with my friends. Yes they are friends even if I have not met most of them. I still have known many of them for 8+ years.
I dont need Fast food 15 minute instances because to me that is a waste of time. 30 to 45 minute instances which take a bit of coordination while we check on TS works very well for a casual gamer like myself. The people that always bring up the TIME EXCUSE BULLSHIT I love to tell them to leave MMOs because they dont belong because they want a genera that is built on the Social Aspect and having to work as a TEAM to achieve goals to be dumbed down to playing Angry Birds on their phones while taking a crap. Sorry that type of game does not mix at all with MMOs and that is why the genera is in the toilet.
The only thing MMOs do not need is old time Time sinks like it would take me to jump 3 planets in SWG and could take me up to an hour to get out to point A. We also do not need or want LFD type tools because they take and chance a social game into a lobby based game where they wait in a city wanting an queue to pop every 5 minutes.
I can accept things will take time like raid progression, or instances, even finding a group for the instance. What I cannot accept is fast pace clear shit in weeks and have months to wait for content unless you are the most hardest core of the hardcore players. If you are an average player no you should take months to get through the content.
Wow, I was just thinking the first computer I saw was in high school and had punch cards and magnetic tape. About the size of refrigerators.
Hehe same with me!
I took Fortran in high school, circa 1972. I remember punching up all those cards only to get a printout at the end, to see if your program worked.
But even then I remember the geeks who practically lived there and are all probably rich millionaires now!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Comments
Alright. This sight just dropped to an entirely new level of stupid.
You could always look at this as some people prefer a 6 hour flight in coach with the general public, to a person who prefers a 20 hour drive to the same destination and you choose who sits next to you and if you want to stop and look at things of interest along the way.
Whether the act involves skill or not, the duration it's done is mostly irrelevant.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Exactly. Thanks for putting it this way, it clear, concise and easy to understand. You won't win any arguements or change anyone's minds but this can't really be stated any better than you did.
I want SOLO but I do not want to finish it in 15 minutes. I came from an Asheron's Call background in 1999 when I got into this genre, where it took me 12 years to reach level cap. Let that sink in...TWELVE YEARS! I also enjoy questing but not in the fed-ex delivery quests of games like WoW or Wildstar but the detail and attention of Asheron's Call, where the average quest can take 1-2 hours to complete and you have to use corners, proper pulling, the right weapon, pull levers, traverse traps and pitfalls, pick locks and be ready to skip certain mobs cause they aren't worth it. Many elements that go into doing a quest in Asheron's Call with TIME being the main factor so this is why I enjoy longer content. Check my sig.....RPG's are about the journey not the destination.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
What is a challenge to you?
"Go back to console" is a clear sign of someone inexperienced in PC gaming.
Apart from MMORPGs, PC gaming is not and has never been about excessive timesinks.
Please realize you're defending games which involve excessive timesinks, and then charge players for time (subscriptions.) We're not talking about good game design. We're discussing a money grab.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
While you are correct that the simple fact its shorter doesnt make it worse. You are committing a logical fallacy as well by assuming the opposite. The graphical quality, AI, etc are not the only defining factors of what makes a dungeon "good".
A short dungeon by definition can not have as much content, or for that matter longer and more challenging fights, there is a simple time constraint. You can't have difficult and engaging mob AI that requires thought because to do a dungeon in 15 minutes you have to be able to AOE tank everything and gib it all down quickly. While a dungeon doesnt need to be 60 minutes to accomplish that either, shortening the time reduces your options, both with AI and content, story, etc.
To tie this back into the intercourse analogy, its like comparing a "quicky" to a normal session involving foreplay, etc etc. Neither is inherently bad, but the latter tends to be more enjoyable for all parties involved. That also doesnt mean the others don't have a place.
The problem is that mmo's only seem to have one or the other. They could have "quicky" dungeons, and they could have "long" dungeons. But instead they make it black or white one or the other and alienate people.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Verily thou didst deliver.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Paying for a provided service does not bother me. Gaming is not a human right.
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not. I also updated the post you quoted with a bit of additional info just to better support my meaning.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
That strawman analogy gives me the stark impression that crossing the bridge once would be a challenge to him.
For games I usually define challenge as the amount of skill required to succeed. The actual dictionary definition is a little broader: "a call to take part in a contest or competition." Not all contests involve skill, so while I might begrudgingly concede that you could call non-skill things challenges, it's the skill involved in a challenge which provides the meaning.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yeah, I don't understand it at all.
Even HE says that crossing a bridge 10,000 times is stupid. But, if he decides to do it, even though it will suck, will it not be a challenge?
Isn't that what a challenge is, something that sucks that you have to overcome in order to achieve your goal?
I guess landing on the moon wasn't a challenge either. Like, big deal and they were sitting down inside the rocket the whole time.
I guess the term "challenge" is suggestive now on this site. I'll just add it to the long list of other suggestive terms.
Actually for me as I grow older I see less days I get to play- which means I lack the ability to raid everyday, but the longer I get to play when I do log on the game. (Work long days- but do not work many days... 7 days every 2 weeks- week 1-5days, week 2 2days)
So in essence longer more difficult content suits me because I have the time to do it. Whereas quick 5-10min solo/grp runs then LFG again gets boring real quick when I have a few hours to play.... I also do not really look to play a game when a short time frame to play... it is difficult for me to get into the game if I can only play for a few minutes. I more than likely will not even log on a game if I do not have 2+ hours to spare.
Really do not get where you come up with we have less time. When you are younger high school etc you spend 35 hours a week in school. Most hourly employees (exceptions- truck drivers etc) work 40 hours a week and most salary look at 50 hour weeks (give or take depending on how fortunate you are or how ambitious you are running your own company)
Chances are regardless of age you still have family obligations. Whether its self chosen or forced by your parents, your children or your spouse. Also, the older you get even starting in high school the less time you will share off with friends which means you will probably spend less time there. I know most of my friends do not start their days at 1AM.
Would getting bored or distracted be considered a mental challenge?
Solitary confinement in the dark for long periods of time can be a challenge, that is all mental.
Or am I way off on this?
Unfortunately, good game design boils down to personal taste. What's good for one gamer isn't for another and sometimes developers make something they like that no one else does. Excessive times sinks are for you what is considered a reasonable pace for others. Money grabs occur in every form of entertainment, fast paced or not, hardcore or casual, old school or new.
I'm not. Just throwing examples out of what I would consider a mental challenge, generally speaking.
Your the guy that reads cliff notes of novels and doesn't understand why anyone would want to read an entire book. Because novels are longer, tedious and time consuming to navigate............
Wow, I was just thinking the first computer I saw was in high school and had punch cards and magnetic tape. About the size of refrigerators.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Hehe same with me!
I took Fortran in high school, circa 1972. I remember punching up all those cards only to get a printout at the end, to see if your program worked.
But even then I remember the geeks who practically lived there and are all probably rich millionaires now!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!