"No game should ever have a timesink for timesink’s sake. A good timesink has you interacting with the game on some level, earning some level of enjoyment or moving the story along. It might be “realistic”, but keep in mind that you are trying to entertain people here and useless timesinks tend to do the opposite of entertain. Always consider a cooldown if your timesink is boring. At least with that, the player is free to do whatever else they want while waiting on their gated content."
Eh, was that to me? That all seems to support exactly what I've been saying throughout this thread and others, that timesinks are basically the opposite of fun and should never exist for their own sake (no design element should exist for its own sake; it should all be deliberate and intentional, serving a clear purpose.)
Yeah i apologize, i realized after i posted it that it was to the guy you were responding to.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Theoretically you are doing something. You are either walking, running, or resting/recovering. One could argue non stop gameplay is not good for a person either. Taking breaks after every fight or just walking along doing something that is not critical to succeeding is a relaxing event in between the more stressful combat (especially group combat). That's not to say that you should be sitting down for 5 to 10 minutes recovering, but a minute or two wouldn't be bad.
Sitting at your computer doing nothing while you wait for those things is doing nothing. It's not even the same level of engagement as watching TV/videos, since at least with that there's some interesting things happening which might make you think or teach you something. If you're sitting around doing nothing and nothing is happening onscreen that's a completely empty experience.
Taking a break should be a player-driven thing. The game should provide the opportunity to play it non-stop and if the player wants a break they'll choose to take a break. If the game forces a break, the player will choose to do something else.
I guess it's just a difference of opinion.
I don't think it's a waste of time to have a little down time. It's also simulation of resting in the game. It also may be a good thing that the player has time to think of things to do on their own and not just do what the game tells them to do.
I also don't find that traveling is doing nothing. I've gone over this in length before. Traveling doesn't have to be completely devoid of things happening along the way, but even if it was there is still the forest and scenery to enjoy. That is like saying going sightseeing or hiking is a waste of time.
I often find myself not engaged in the combat portion of MMOs these days. When I try one all there is are different forms of combat. Most of them are fairly boring combat if you have played a lot of MMOs before. In that instance I feel that my time is really being wasted. It's why I generally don't play MMOs these days.
I think the next step is to force players to go to the toilets. Possibly with simulated virtual smell, too, for the full immersive experience. I mean, you simulate resting and eating, disposing of waste is also a natural body function.
That would probably be more stimulating then what is in MMOs these days.
The money grab of early subscriptions, yea because 15 bucks all inclusive a month is just such a money grab compared to item mall cash shops that sell the game in pay to win pieces and charge a subscription on top of that.
So laughable. Why not tell us something else completely laughable like that time you said EVE online was buy to play.
Gonna guess you never played MUDs that were mostly completely free and had huge timesinks, you know the things they based EQ and early MMORPGs on...
The fact stands that it clearly was a money grab. There was no reason apart from making more subscription money for the excessive timesinks to have been added to MMORPGs when they haven't been a part of any other genre. You're free to try to pretend it wasn't a money grab by citing something you feel is more of a money grab, but that doesn't alter the underlying facts.
See, Axe... You consistently come across as someone who seems to have some idea of what they're talking about, albeit with an arrogant, hyper-opinionated "I'm always right about everything" tone to everything you post.
But then you write something like that paragraph, and I have to wonder exactly how you can possibly feel justified in conveying such arrogance, because you demonstrate a complete inability to see from any other point-of-view but your own.
Are you familiar with the term "games as a service"?
Are you aware that, as with anything that is considered a service, the idea is to maintain a long-term relationship with the customers?
Are you aware that in order to maintain a long-term relationship with customers, you have to provide something (the 'service') that makes them want to continue giving you their business, rather than going elsewhere, to a competitor?
Are you aware that MMORPGs are designed as long-term hobbies, not one-shot "finish it and move on" single player games? So, by virtue of being something long-term, yes... it kinda makes sense that they would want to include activities that would keep people engaged over a long period of time?
Are you aware that the mere act of creating long-term content does not guarantee people will keep people playing? That there has to be something enjoyable or worthwhile in it for them, or they're not going to stick around? People don't tend to continuously do something voluntarily if they don't enjoy it... especially if it's costing money as well. It's gotta earn their time, and monthly sub fee. As much as so many would like you to believe that.. it's just not so.
There is something they're enjoying in that content, or they're not going to keep doing it for even days... never mind months or years. People who don't like a game tend to leave that game, no matter how long its content is designed to take. And that goes for any game you can point to, on the market now, in the past, or even in the future.
Are you aware that merely referring to something as a "grind" - aside from being subjective - does not automatically make it a bad thing? That it depends on the activity, and how it is to an individual? What you consider a horrible grind, someone else might find to be really enjoyable. I've known people who enjoyed grinding xp, because they could just relax and chill out, chat with friends in-game, or on voice chat, etc. It wasn't a chore to them at all. Are they wrong for feeling that way? Were they victims of a "money grab", even though they felt it was fully worth the cost?
Are you aware that in old-school MMORPGs, when people were engaged in a "grind", that they were - far more often than not - doing so with a group of others? That that interaction with others often became the main focus of the activity? That it was never just about the activity itself? That the content would, very often, become a background, against which a group of people were engaged in a shared hobby, talking, joking, getting to know one another, and generally having a good time? Perhaps that session of "grinding" would eventually lead to something else... like a dungeon run, or some questing, or exploring.. or whatever...
Are you aware that "not engaging in content when it begins to feel like a grind" is always, and always has been, an option? That there has always been other things a player could choose to do instead, if a given activity was beginning to feel "grindy" to them? I did this throughout my 7+ years of FFXI, and for over 4 years in Lineage 2. I never did anything I didn't want to do, nor for any longer than I wanted to do it. Neither FFXI, nor L2 ever felt like a grind to me. Yes, I'm being serious. There was *always* a variety of other things I could do. The solution to the "boring grind", is to step off the treadmill, and stop grinding. Sadly, with the self-imposed attitude of "must get to level cap ASAP!" that's so ingrained in MMO players these days, such a suggestion must sound completely crazy. But it works. Every time. I speak from experience.
When people like you, and others, make the kind of arguments you do, they sound great on their face, but it's really such, such shallow thinking. You look only surface deep, and only through a very narrow lens that only supports your narrative. You never take a step back to look at the bigger picture. You never stop to think, well... wait... maybe.. just maybe there's more to this than I'm acknowledging. Maybe I should take some time to try and understand the other side's point-of-view, to understand how they see it, how they feel about these things, what their attitude and approach is to these things?
But see, I don't think that will ever happen with people like you... Your ego is too wrapped up in having to be right about everything, every time. You can't acknowledge a differing point-of-view, or try to understand how others think, and how the way you think about things doesn't really apply to others, because they don't share your perspective, biases, etc... Because if you did, then you'd have to admit that you're not right all the time, about everything. You couldn't write statements, declaring what the "fact" is... as though what is true for you is automatically true for everyone else. And well... we just can't allow that, now can we? Gotta keep up that image!
Now speaking for myself here, but what I think of when I say I want longer content...it's just that., longer content. Not long unnecessary timesinks for the sake of keeping you in a particular situation longer to give the false sense of there being more then actually exists.
Just more to do beyond what we are getting now, or even did then.
Anymore, from level 1 to whatever few levels before cap may be...nearly all quests seem redundant and just a necessary evil to get to the prize...that being "end game". Which I'd like to say, is a term that I personally feel NEVER should of coincided with MMORPG's.
Where in the hell are the truly legendary and inventive quests? Arching/Branching story lines that are good enough to make you want to actually read it and learn the lore and not just speed click through the dialog to get to the simple and usual kill X amount of this, collect X amount of that types of quests? Quests with multiple choices of paths to take, with multiple outcomes that may or may not effect the world, or your status within it?
Where is the interactive crafting beyond opening a window and hitting combined? Actually stand at the kiln and add ingredients, stoke the fire to get the heat right, etc. It would be nice to see a crafter able to customize armor and weaponry. Put their own unique signature on their creations they can be proud of and be well known within the world for making. Some type of editor for the crafter. Possibly allowing part switch outs between items to vary looks, colorization choices, etc.
Varying content throughout the world for various levels in the same zone so it all isn't filtered on rails through specific areas for only specific levels to coincide with the zone in question. Just as back in the days of EQ1 when there could be a lvl 50 mobs wandering a lvl 20-30 zone. Do the same with the possibility of discovering quest lines etc in areas you normally wouldn't find them.
Fishing for food, for competition (Perhaps having a server trophy catch list), hell...for fun.
Hunting for food, trophies (Same as Fishing).
Bounty Hunting (Depending on the game in question and it's mechanics)
Ship travel between continents, or just player able to build them and sail the seas of the world. Storms at sea, Pirate attacks, sea monster attacks, discovery of hidden islands (Maybe spawning random islands).
Etc, etc, etc, etc.....
I really don't know why after 17 years of this genre existing it hasn't evolved further. Other than the player base simply accepting what it is given, and despite complaining, continue to pay for it...so why change what keeps paying the bills. It's just rehash after rehash of the same game, but with a different title.
The money grab of early subscriptions, yea because 15 bucks all inclusive a month is just such a money grab compared to item mall cash shops that sell the game in pay to win pieces and charge a subscription on top of that.
So laughable. Why not tell us something else completely laughable like that time you said EVE online was buy to play.
Gonna guess you never played MUDs that were mostly completely free and had huge timesinks, you know the things they based EQ and early MMORPGs on...
The fact stands that it clearly was a money grab. There was no reason apart from making more subscription money for the excessive timesinks to have been added to MMORPGs when they haven't been a part of any other genre. You're free to try to pretend it wasn't a money grab by citing something you feel is more of a money grab, but that doesn't alter the underlying facts.
See, Axe... You consistently come across as someone who seems to have some idea of what they're talking about, albeit with an arrogant, hyper-opinionated "I'm always right about everything" tone to everything you post.
But then you write something like that paragraph, and I have to wonder exactly how you can possibly feel justified in conveying such arrogance, because you demonstrate a complete inability to see from any other point-of-view but your own.
Are you familiar with the term "games as a service"?
Are you aware that, as with anything that is considered a service, the idea is to maintain a long-term relationship with the customers?
Are you aware that in order to maintain a long-term relationship with customers, you have to provide something (the 'service') that makes them want to continue giving you their business, rather than going elsewhere, to a competitor?
Are you aware that MMORPGs are designed as long-term hobbies, not one-shot "finish it and move on" single player games? So, by virtue of being something long-term, yes... it kinda makes sense that they would want to include activities that would keep people engaged over a long period of time?
Are you aware that the mere act of creating long-term content does not guarantee people will keep people playing? That there has to be something enjoyable or worthwhile in it for them, or they're not going to stick around? People don't tend to continuously do something voluntarily if they don't enjoy it... especially if it's costing money as well. It's gotta earn their time, and monthly sub fee. As much as so many would like you to believe that.. it's just not so.
There is something they're enjoying in that content, or they're not going to keep doing it for even days... never mind months or years. People who don't like a game tend to leave that game, no matter how long its content is designed to take. And that goes for any game you can point to, on the market now, in the past, or even in the future.
Are you aware that merely referring to something as a "grind" - aside from being subjective - does not automatically make it a bad thing? That it depends on the activity, and how it is to an individual? What you consider a horrible grind, someone else might find to be really enjoyable. I've known people who enjoyed grinding xp, because they could just relax and chill out, chat with friends in-game, or on voice chat, etc. It wasn't a chore to them at all. Are they wrong for feeling that way? Were they victims of a "money grab", even though they felt it was fully worth the cost?
Are you aware that in old-school MMORPGs, when people were engaged in a "grind", that they were - far more often than not - doing so with a group of others? That that interaction with others often became the main focus of the activity? That it was never just about the activity itself? That the content would, very often, become a background, against which a group of people were engaged in a shared hobby, talking, joking, getting to know one another, and generally having a good time? Perhaps that session of "grinding" would eventually lead to something else... like a dungeon run, or some questing, or exploring.. or whatever...
Are you aware that "not engaging in content when it begins to feel like a grind" is always, and always has been, an option? That there has always been other things a player could choose to do instead, if a given activity was beginning to feel "grindy" to them? I did this throughout my 7+ years of FFXI, and for over 4 years in Lineage 2. I never did anything I didn't want to do, nor for any longer than I wanted to do it. Neither FFXI, nor L2 ever felt like a grind to me. Yes, I'm being serious. There was *always* a variety of other things I could do. The solution to the "boring grind", is to step off the treadmill, and stop grinding. Sadly, with the self-imposed attitude of "must get to level cap ASAP!" that's so ingrained in MMO players these days, such a suggestion must sound completely crazy. But it works. Every time. I speak from experience.
When people like you, and others, make the kind of arguments you do, they sound great on their face, but it's really such, such shallow thinking. You look only surface deep, and only through a very narrow lens that only supports your narrative. You never take a step back to look at the bigger picture. You never stop to think, well... wait... maybe.. just maybe there's more to this than I'm acknowledging. Maybe I should take some time to try and understand the other side's point-of-view, to understand how they see it, how they feel about these things, what their attitude and approach is to these things?
But see, I don't think that will ever happen with people like you... Your ego is too wrapped up in having to be right about everything, every time. You can't acknowledge a differing point-of-view, or try to understand how others think, and how the way you think about things doesn't really apply to others, because they don't share your perspective, biases, etc... Because if you did, then you'd have to admit that you're not right all the time, about everything. You couldn't write statements, declaring what the "fact" is... as though what is true for you is automatically true for everyone else. And well... we just can't allow that, now can we? Gotta keep up that image!
+1
Would also like to add how silly it is when certain people here like to keep using non-MMORPG games as examples for...MMORPG games.
From the main forum selection page of this site...
See, Axe... You consistently come across as someone who seems to have some idea of what they're talking about, albeit with an arrogant, hyper-opinionated "I'm always right about everything" tone to everything you post.
But then you write something like that paragraph, and I have to wonder exactly how you can possibly feel justified in conveying such arrogance, because you demonstrate a complete inability to see from any other point-of-view but your own.
Are you familiar with the term "games as a service"?
Are you aware that, as with anything that is considered a service, the idea is to maintain a long-term relationship with the customers?
Are you aware that in order to maintain a long-term relationship with customers, you have to provide something (the 'service') that makes them want to continue giving you their business, rather than going elsewhere, to a competitor?
Are you aware that MMORPGs are designed as long-term hobbies, not one-shot "finish it and move on" single player games? So, by virtue of being something long-term, yes... it kinda makes sense that they would want to include activities that would keep people engaged over a long period of time?
Are you aware that the mere act of creating long-term content does not guarantee people will keep people playing? That there has to be something enjoyable or worthwhile in it for them, or they're not going to stick around? People don't tend to continuously do something voluntarily if they don't enjoy it... especially if it's costing money as well. It's gotta earn their time, and monthly sub fee. As much as so many would like you to believe that.. it's just not so.
There is something they're enjoying in that content, or they're not going to keep doing it for even days... never mind months or years. People who don't like a game tend to leave that game, no matter how long its content is designed to take. And that goes for any game you can point to, on the market now, in the past, or even in the future.
Are you aware that merely referring to something as a "grind" - aside from being subjective - does not automatically make it a bad thing? That it depends on the activity, and how it is to an individual? What you consider a horrible grind, someone else might find to be really enjoyable. I've known people who enjoyed grinding xp, because they could just relax and chill out, chat with friends in-game, or on voice chat, etc. It wasn't a chore to them at all. Are they wrong for feeling that way? Were they victims of a "money grab", even though they felt it was fully worth the cost?
Are you aware that in old-school MMORPGs, when people were engaged in a "grind", that they were - far more often than not - doing so with a group of others? That that interaction with others often became the main focus of the activity? That it was never just about the activity itself? That the content would, very often, become a background, against which a group of people were engaged in a shared hobby, talking, joking, getting to know one another, and generally having a good time? Perhaps that session of "grinding" would eventually lead to something else... like a dungeon run, or some questing, or exploring.. or whatever...
Are you aware that "not engaging in content when it begins to feel like a grind" is always, and always has been, an option? That there has always been other things a player could choose to do instead, if a given activity was beginning to feel "grindy" to them? I did this throughout my 7+ years of FFXI, and for over 4 years in Lineage 2. I never did anything I didn't want to do, nor for any longer than I wanted to do it. Neither FFXI, nor L2 ever felt like a grind to me. Yes, I'm being serious. There was *always* a variety of other things I could do. The solution to the "boring grind", is to step off the treadmill, and stop grinding. Sadly, with the self-imposed attitude of "must get to level cap ASAP!" that's so ingrained in MMO players these days, such a suggestion must sound completely crazy. But it works. Every time. I speak from experience.
When people like you, and others, make the kind of arguments you do, they sound great on their face, but it's really such, such shallow thinking. You look only surface deep, and only through a very narrow lens that only supports your narrative. You never take a step back to look at the bigger picture. You never stop to think, well... wait... maybe.. just maybe there's more to this than I'm acknowledging. Maybe I should take some time to try and understand the other side's point-of-view, to understand how they see it, how they feel about these things, what their attitude and approach is to these things?
But see, I don't think that will ever happen with people like you... Your ego is too wrapped up in having to be right about everything, every time. You can't acknowledge a differing point-of-view, or try to understand how others think, and how the way you think about things doesn't really apply to others, because they don't share your perspective, biases, etc... Because if you did, then you'd have to admit that you're not right all the time, about everything. You couldn't write statements, declaring what the "fact" is... as though what is true for you is automatically true for everyone else. And well... we just can't allow that, now can we? Gotta keep up that image!
The part you quoted isn't a "point of view" sort of thing. It's a fact, with a clear correlation, a clear motivation, and the lead designer of a MMORPG backing it up with his definition of timesink.
Timesinks are extremely similar to grind (the former is a measure of decisions/time while the latter tends to be a more subjective fun/time) and with either you're right that players always have a choice, except that if it's the primary activity of a game that's too grindy they'll generally choose to play another game entirely.
Players are there for the game. The beer. If you water down the beer, players are going to switch to a different beer that isn't watered down. They don't care about beer as a service or whatever catch phrase you want to use. They just want the beer, and that's it. So it doesn't matter that I know what games-as-a-service are about, having worked on them the last ~6 years. What matters is creating a good game for players that isn't watered down.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The part you quoted isn't a "point of view" sort of thing. It's a fact, with a clear correlation, a clear motivation, and the lead designer of a MMORPG backing it up with his definition of timesink.
Timesinks are extremely similar to grind (the former is a measure of decisions/time while the latter tends to be a more subjective fun/time) and with either you're right that players always have a choice, except that if it's the primary activity of a game that's too grindy they'll generally choose to play another game entirely.
Players are there for the game. The beer. If you water down the beer, players are going to switch to a different beer that isn't watered down. They don't care about beer as a service or whatever catch phrase you want to use. They just want the beer, and that's it. So it doesn't matter that I know what games-as-a-service are about, having worked on them the last ~6 years. What matters is creating a good game for players that isn't watered down.
Then how do you explain the continued existence of Coors Light? It is basically water with a dab of beer in it, yet...it still exists because it must be selling enough to make it so. =P
See, Axe... You consistently come across as someone who seems to have some idea of what they're talking about, albeit with an arrogant, hyper-opinionated "I'm always right about everything" tone to everything you post.
But then you write something like that paragraph, and I have to wonder exactly how you can possibly feel justified in conveying such arrogance, because you demonstrate a complete inability to see from any other point-of-view but your own.
Are you familiar with the term "games as a service"?
Are you aware that, as with anything that is considered a service, the idea is to maintain a long-term relationship with the customers?
Are you aware that in order to maintain a long-term relationship with customers, you have to provide something (the 'service') that makes them want to continue giving you their business, rather than going elsewhere, to a competitor?
Are you aware that MMORPGs are designed as long-term hobbies, not one-shot "finish it and move on" single player games? So, by virtue of being something long-term, yes... it kinda makes sense that they would want to include activities that would keep people engaged over a long period of time?
Are you aware that the mere act of creating long-term content does not guarantee people will keep people playing? That there has to be something enjoyable or worthwhile in it for them, or they're not going to stick around? People don't tend to continuously do something voluntarily if they don't enjoy it... especially if it's costing money as well. It's gotta earn their time, and monthly sub fee. As much as so many would like you to believe that.. it's just not so.
There is something they're enjoying in that content, or they're not going to keep doing it for even days... never mind months or years. People who don't like a game tend to leave that game, no matter how long its content is designed to take. And that goes for any game you can point to, on the market now, in the past, or even in the future.
Are you aware that merely referring to something as a "grind" - aside from being subjective - does not automatically make it a bad thing? That it depends on the activity, and how it is to an individual? What you consider a horrible grind, someone else might find to be really enjoyable. I've known people who enjoyed grinding xp, because they could just relax and chill out, chat with friends in-game, or on voice chat, etc. It wasn't a chore to them at all. Are they wrong for feeling that way? Were they victims of a "money grab", even though they felt it was fully worth the cost?
Are you aware that in old-school MMORPGs, when people were engaged in a "grind", that they were - far more often than not - doing so with a group of others? That that interaction with others often became the main focus of the activity? That it was never just about the activity itself? That the content would, very often, become a background, against which a group of people were engaged in a shared hobby, talking, joking, getting to know one another, and generally having a good time? Perhaps that session of "grinding" would eventually lead to something else... like a dungeon run, or some questing, or exploring.. or whatever...
Are you aware that "not engaging in content when it begins to feel like a grind" is always, and always has been, an option? That there has always been other things a player could choose to do instead, if a given activity was beginning to feel "grindy" to them? I did this throughout my 7+ years of FFXI, and for over 4 years in Lineage 2. I never did anything I didn't want to do, nor for any longer than I wanted to do it. Neither FFXI, nor L2 ever felt like a grind to me. Yes, I'm being serious. There was *always* a variety of other things I could do. The solution to the "boring grind", is to step off the treadmill, and stop grinding. Sadly, with the self-imposed attitude of "must get to level cap ASAP!" that's so ingrained in MMO players these days, such a suggestion must sound completely crazy. But it works. Every time. I speak from experience.
When people like you, and others, make the kind of arguments you do, they sound great on their face, but it's really such, such shallow thinking. You look only surface deep, and only through a very narrow lens that only supports your narrative. You never take a step back to look at the bigger picture. You never stop to think, well... wait... maybe.. just maybe there's more to this than I'm acknowledging. Maybe I should take some time to try and understand the other side's point-of-view, to understand how they see it, how they feel about these things, what their attitude and approach is to these things?
But see, I don't think that will ever happen with people like you... Your ego is too wrapped up in having to be right about everything, every time. You can't acknowledge a differing point-of-view, or try to understand how others think, and how the way you think about things doesn't really apply to others, because they don't share your perspective, biases, etc... Because if you did, then you'd have to admit that you're not right all the time, about everything. You couldn't write statements, declaring what the "fact" is... as though what is true for you is automatically true for everyone else. And well... we just can't allow that, now can we? Gotta keep up that image!
The part you quoted isn't a "point of view" sort of thing. It's a fact, with a clear correlation, a clear motivation, and the lead designer of a MMORPG backing it up with his definition of timesink.
Timesinks are extremely similar to grind (the former is a measure of decisions/time while the latter tends to be a more subjective fun/time) and with either you're right that players always have a choice, except that if it's the primary activity of a game that's too grindy they'll generally choose to play another game entirely.
Players are there for the game. The beer. If you water down the beer, players are going to switch to a different beer that isn't watered down. They don't care about beer as a service or whatever catch phrase you want to use. They just want the beer, and that's it. So it doesn't matter that I know what games-as-a-service are about, having worked on them the last ~6 years. What matters is creating a good game for players that isn't watered down.
ROFLMAO, blunt instrument strikes again ...... and misses.
Try thinking of it in terms of Whisky and Beer. After all, at one level, Whisky is Beer with the water taken out. Now if you simply do that you wind up with a pretty awful spirit, but if you put it in barrels and age it and it can taste might fine.
But you know something: people still make lots of different kinds of beer and a whole lot of folks drink a whole lot of beer and enjoy doing so.
Or you could think about Brandy and Wine. Or think about what happens when you mix Brandy spirt and wine and make; port, tokay, sherry etc.
Or you could think about Calvados and Cider.
Timesink, Grind, one Developers definition or another. People like doing different things, people have different tolerance levels for repetition and this can vary day to day and over time. There is no absolute here as fun and boredom are always subjective.
It would be nice to imagine a day where folks will respect that it takes different strokes for different folks, but it will never happen.
Some people simply want to play games. Others want to participate in virtual worlds. Apples and oranges.
Immersion and time are key elements in creating a palpable sense of danger and the illusion that one must fight to survive. People play "survival" games and approve of mechanics that require you to do things like rest, slowly mend wounds, prepare and eat food or travel. Then when these same features involving realism and time are incorporated into an MMO, they object as if immersion no longer has a place in the land of elves and dwarves.
I contend that it does. I miss having to rest and worrying that we might not have enough time to recuperate before the enemy attacks us again. It was part of the gameplay, and calling it a waste of time or non-gameplay will never make it so... no matter how many times you repeat it.
99% of the time the words time sink and grind are used by people to describe things thru personally don't like. Eating pills level after level in paan could be called a time sink, questing, killing bosses, simply bring logged into a game - anything. Sometimes i enjoy wandering in a world killing and collecting cp and rewards, that's a 'timesink'. But I don't think to myself 'i want to spend time in a timesink'
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
Well here's the thing, most vets, like myself, in their 30's and 40's have been multi-tasking life and their games since our teens. Only difference being instead of a real job and family, we had, back then, after school homework, sports/recreation, girl/boyfriends and part-time jobs. Case in point, real vets don't need games dumbed down to fit a certain life-style, as we have always factored in our game time with real life.
...and that was back in the days when school was still challenging not like today where everyone passes and the content is about as challenging as the games released today.
What they call Hard Mode today was Normal Mode back in our days. I just recently played "The Last of Us" for the first time in their special Ultra Hard Mode that has everything turned off even the UI and i feel hardly challenged.
We want more meaningful and challenging content. Sometimes that means longer to reach a goal but arriving there actually means something. It's an achievement, no, not like the achievements you get in games these days where you get an achievement for loading the game. I mean real achievements that took time, effort and dedication to get.
The current generation of games is tailored to a generation of kids that failed in school, that got pushed along and want everything for just showing up. That is as much effort as they are willing to put into something. I show up, give me the stuff.
What do you think you will appreciate more, a house you built from the ground up with your own blood sweat and tears (many of those hours non enjoyable and felt a lot like "work"). Or one you bought? Obviously you'll still appreciate and enjoy the house you bought, but its not going to be the same as if you built it yourself.
I am a architect, I enjoyed letting people build it for me according to my wishes/demands. :P
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
What do you think you will appreciate more, a house you built from the ground up with your own blood sweat and tears (many of those hours non enjoyable and felt a lot like "work"). Or one you bought? Obviously you'll still appreciate and enjoy the house you bought, but its not going to be the same as if you built it yourself.
I am a architect, I enjoyed letting people build it for me according to my wishes/demands. :P
Then you perfectly understand what has been said.
You rather spend a long time designing and creating your perfect house with gravity defying features, great light and the challenge to make it all structurally sound and not screw up the statics than pick one from the Bauhaus Catalog, right?
I contend that it does. I miss having to rest and worrying that we might not have enough time to recuperate before the enemy attacks us again. It was part of the gameplay, and calling it a waste of time or non-gameplay will never make it so... no matter how many times you repeat it.
I snipped part of what you said, but really wanted to approve and respond to this section.. This is part of that micro-management I would love to see back in RPGs again.. Managing your mana, energy, stamina or whatever people want to call it, should be part of your gaming experience, no different then a cars fuel efficiency in a race.. It requires planning and strategy and adds another element in adventuring.. I can't remember how many times in EQ or similar games I had to watch out for agro while I mend and heal.. It also opens up more role playing abilities like clarity, stamina buff or speed.. etc etc.. Surviving combat should be more then what happens in those 30 second burst between mobs..
I contend that it does. I miss having to rest and worrying that we might not have enough time to recuperate before the enemy attacks us again. It was part of the gameplay, and calling it a waste of time or non-gameplay will never make it so... no matter how many times you repeat it.
I snipped part of what you said, but really wanted to approve and respond to this section.. This is part of that micro-management I would love to see back in RPGs again.. Managing your mana, energy, stamina or whatever people want to call it, should be part of your gaming experience, no different then a cars fuel efficiency in a race.. It requires planning and strategy and adds another element in adventuring.. I can't remember how many times in EQ or similar games I had to watch out for agro while I mend and heal.. It also opens up more role playing abilities like clarity, stamina buff or speed.. etc etc.. Surviving combat should be more then what happens in those 30 second burst between mobs..
I totally agree with you. The "casualitis" of today's games is the problem. People don't want to put in any effort or think. They want to be entertained and win 100% of the time. This is not what games have been about, failure was part of the gameplay.
I totally agree with you. The "casualitis" of today's games is the problem. People don't want to put in any effort or think. They want to be entertained and win 100% of the time. This is not what games have been about, failure was part of the gameplay.
In the history of video games, has there ever been a time when Video Games weren't considered an 'Entertainment Product' for the vast majority of people?
Other than the 1st video game (Pong), I can't think of one.
This 'Back in my day we walked in the snow' never happened and pretending it did is historical revisionism.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
Then how do you explain the continued existence of Coors Light? It is basically water with a dab of beer in it, yet...it still exists because it must be selling enough to make it so. =P
Not everyone has standards. But almost nobody goes to watered down beer if there aren't other factors forcing them there, like cost.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Bladestrom Ah wait that's not right, it's more like 1 hour walking through beautiful countryside followed by 49 hours walking on a treadmill > 49 hours walking through beautiful countryside followed by 1 hour on a treadmill. Perfect
Yep. Anyone know what the starter area in Rift looks like from memory? I started beta, pushed through the first 5 zones in 10 minutes (or less), turned of the game and never went back. I've been waiting for a good MMO for a very long time.
Goodness you are fast. It takes me 10 minutes at least to make a character. o.O
Late reply, but... character creation != gameplay. Come on now.
ROFLMAO, blunt instrument strikes again ...... and misses.
Try thinking of it in terms of Whisky and Beer. After all, at one level, Whisky is Beer with the water taken out. Now if you simply do that you wind up with a pretty awful spirit, but if you put it in barrels and age it and it can taste might fine.
But you know something: people still make lots of different kinds of beer and a whole lot of folks drink a whole lot of beer and enjoy doing so.
Or you could think about Brandy and Wine. Or think about what happens when you mix Brandy spirt and wine and make; port, tokay, sherry etc.
Or you could think about Calvados and Cider.
Timesink, Grind, one Developers definition or another. People like doing different things, people have different tolerance levels for repetition and this can vary day to day and over time. There is no absolute here as fun and boredom are always subjective.
Why would I try thinking in terms of whiskey? Timesinks aren't some desirable thing that makes for a better game. They're empty non-gameplay. It's watered down beer.
Do you realize what you're defending though? A game takes 15 secs to regen health and mana. A designer comes along, tweaks that number to 300 seconds so you spend nearly 5 long minutes between combat just sitting around waiting, and you're going to claim that's in any way better gameplay? That's not gameplay at all. Gameplay is decisions, and sitting around waiting involves no decisions.
If you enjoy a game telling you "wait here", and that's fun to you, more power to you. But most people understand that timesinks are water in the beer. Some water is required to make beer, but excessive water beyond that just ruins the product.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I totally agree with you. The "casualitis" of today's games is the problem. People don't want to put in any effort or think. They want to be entertained and win 100% of the time. This is not what games have been about, failure was part of the gameplay.
In the history of video games, has there ever been a time when Video Games weren't considered an 'Entertainment Product' for the vast majority of people?
Other than the 1st video game (Pong), I can't think of one.
This 'Back in my day we walked in the snow' never happened and pretending it did is historical revisionism.
Did i say they are not? You might want to read what i wrote again. I was talking about 100% winning and having it easy not about games not being an entertainment product.
Just to entertain your misguided reply, there is a difference between interactive entertainment and non interactive. I would call most games non interactive because you just need to be barely alive to press a button.
ROFLMAO, blunt instrument strikes again ...... and misses.
Try thinking of it in terms of Whisky and Beer. After all, at one level, Whisky is Beer with the water taken out. Now if you simply do that you wind up with a pretty awful spirit, but if you put it in barrels and age it and it can taste might fine.
But you know something: people still make lots of different kinds of beer and a whole lot of folks drink a whole lot of beer and enjoy doing so.
Or you could think about Brandy and Wine. Or think about what happens when you mix Brandy spirt and wine and make; port, tokay, sherry etc.
Or you could think about Calvados and Cider.
Timesink, Grind, one Developers definition or another. People like doing different things, people have different tolerance levels for repetition and this can vary day to day and over time. There is no absolute here as fun and boredom are always subjective.
Why would I try thinking in terms of whiskey? Timesinks aren't some desirable thing that makes for a better game. They're empty non-gameplay. It's watered down beer.
Do you realize what you're defending though? A game takes 15 secs to regen health and mana. A designer comes along, tweaks that number to 300 seconds so you spend nearly 5 long minutes between combat just sitting around waiting, and you're going to claim that's in any way better gameplay? That's not gameplay at all. Gameplay is decisions, and sitting around waiting involves no decisions.
If you enjoy a game telling you "wait here", and that's fun to you, more power to you. But most people understand that timesinks are water in the beer. Some water is required to make beer, but excessive water beyond that just ruins the product.
You post just illustrates perfectly how you have no idea what resource management is and how these games where played. No one sat around for 300 seconds, you managed your limited resources with planning and many different options the game offered.
A healer for example has to make sure not to over-cure and waste MP, maybe it's better to throw a Regen spell on the DD than a full cure, how about using Bio 2 or Slow to reduce damage, hence reduce healing and mana use. I know your head is already spinning and you ask yourself: "What are all these spells, i only have 3 buttons, Damage, Heal, Teleport".
The Limited Mana and long recovery time served as an incentive to play better and manage your resources better, not as a time sink. It was only a time sink for idiots that do not understand how to play.
Your comment is the typical comment of the new generation of gamers that are not able to put 2 and 2 together and need to be hand held through the whole game getting every reward automatically for just holding the controller and pressing a button.
Did i say they are not? You might want to read what i wrote again. I was talking about 100% winning and having it easy not about games not being an entertainment product.
Just to entertain your misguided reply, there is a difference between interactive entertainment and non interactive. I would call most games non interactive because you just need to be barely alive to press a button.
No, you just called it a 'problem'.
Some of the games where you couldn't fail are considered (by many) to be one of the best game ever made so not sure what you are talking about.
Yes, I'm talking about Lucas Arts games where it had no failure state. Grim Fandango, Monkey's Island, Day of the Tentacle etc
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
I'm really enjoying reading everyone's opinion and seeing how passionate they are about this but guys lets not steer the conversation towards flaming, name-calling, trolling, etc ... >.<
Did i say they are not? You might want to read what i wrote again. I was talking about 100% winning and having it easy not about games not being an entertainment product.
Just to entertain your misguided reply, there is a difference between interactive entertainment and non interactive. I would call most games non interactive because you just need to be barely alive to press a button.
No, you just called it a 'problem'.
Some of the games where you couldn't fail are considered (by many) to be one of the best game ever made so not sure what you are talking about.
Yes, I'm talking about Lucas Arts games where it had no failure state. Grim Fandango, Monkey's Island, Day of the Tentacle etc
The failure state for these games where misleading puzzles and items, which are exactly the same as failure in other games and have been put into the mentioned games on purpose to make them harder and for you to fail until you figure out the correct solution.
Now, you can try and argue more but i think it's time to put the shovel down. I am afraid this conversation serves no purpose anymore,
Comments
Yeah i apologize, i realized after i posted it that it was to the guy you were responding to.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
That would probably be more stimulating then what is in MMOs these days.
If by longer you mean unnecessary time sinks for the sake of time sinks content, then i don't think anyone wants that.
If by longer you mean epic, meaningful, dangerous, immersive, non-throwaway content, then yes i want that.
Now speaking for myself here, but what I think of when I say I want longer content...it's just that., longer content. Not long unnecessary timesinks for the sake of keeping you in a particular situation longer to give the false sense of there being more then actually exists.
Just more to do beyond what we are getting now, or even did then.
Anymore, from level 1 to whatever few levels before cap may be...nearly all quests seem redundant and just a necessary evil to get to the prize...that being "end game". Which I'd like to say, is a term that I personally feel NEVER should of coincided with MMORPG's.
Where in the hell are the truly legendary and inventive quests? Arching/Branching story lines that are good enough to make you want to actually read it and learn the lore and not just speed click through the dialog to get to the simple and usual kill X amount of this, collect X amount of that types of quests? Quests with multiple choices of paths to take, with multiple outcomes that may or may not effect the world, or your status within it?
Where is the interactive crafting beyond opening a window and hitting combined? Actually stand at the kiln and add ingredients, stoke the fire to get the heat right, etc. It would be nice to see a crafter able to customize armor and weaponry. Put their own unique signature on their creations they can be proud of and be well known within the world for making. Some type of editor for the crafter. Possibly allowing part switch outs between items to vary looks, colorization choices, etc.
Varying content throughout the world for various levels in the same zone so it all isn't filtered on rails through specific areas for only specific levels to coincide with the zone in question. Just as back in the days of EQ1 when there could be a lvl 50 mobs wandering a lvl 20-30 zone. Do the same with the possibility of discovering quest lines etc in areas you normally wouldn't find them.
Fishing for food, for competition (Perhaps having a server trophy catch list), hell...for fun.
Hunting for food, trophies (Same as Fishing).
Bounty Hunting (Depending on the game in question and it's mechanics)
Ship travel between continents, or just player able to build them and sail the seas of the world. Storms at sea, Pirate attacks, sea monster attacks, discovery of hidden islands (Maybe spawning random islands).
Etc, etc, etc, etc.....
I really don't know why after 17 years of this genre existing it hasn't evolved further. Other than the player base simply accepting what it is given, and despite complaining, continue to pay for it...so why change what keeps paying the bills. It's just rehash after rehash of the same game, but with a different title.
+1
Would also like to add how silly it is when certain people here like to keep using non-MMORPG games as examples for...MMORPG games.
From the main forum selection page of this site...
The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Use this forum to talk about MMORPGs. Please stay on the topic about MMORPGs and use the "off-topic" forum for unrelated posts.The part you quoted isn't a "point of view" sort of thing. It's a fact, with a clear correlation, a clear motivation, and the lead designer of a MMORPG backing it up with his definition of timesink.
Timesinks are extremely similar to grind (the former is a measure of decisions/time while the latter tends to be a more subjective fun/time) and with either you're right that players always have a choice, except that if it's the primary activity of a game that's too grindy they'll generally choose to play another game entirely.
Players are there for the game. The beer. If you water down the beer, players are going to switch to a different beer that isn't watered down. They don't care about beer as a service or whatever catch phrase you want to use. They just want the beer, and that's it. So it doesn't matter that I know what games-as-a-service are about, having worked on them the last ~6 years. What matters is creating a good game for players that isn't watered down.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Then how do you explain the continued existence of Coors Light? It is basically water with a dab of beer in it, yet...it still exists because it must be selling enough to make it so. =P
ROFLMAO, blunt instrument strikes again ...... and misses.
Try thinking of it in terms of Whisky and Beer. After all, at one level, Whisky is Beer with the water taken out. Now if you simply do that you wind up with a pretty awful spirit, but if you put it in barrels and age it and it can taste might fine.
But you know something: people still make lots of different kinds of beer and a whole lot of folks drink a whole lot of beer and enjoy doing so.
Or you could think about Brandy and Wine. Or think about what happens when you mix Brandy spirt and wine and make; port, tokay, sherry etc.
Or you could think about Calvados and Cider.
Timesink, Grind, one Developers definition or another. People like doing different things, people have different tolerance levels for repetition and this can vary day to day and over time. There is no absolute here as fun and boredom are always subjective.
It would be nice to imagine a day where folks will respect that it takes different strokes for different folks, but it will never happen.
Some people simply want to play games. Others want to participate in virtual worlds. Apples and oranges.
Immersion and time are key elements in creating a palpable sense of danger and the illusion that one must fight to survive. People play "survival" games and approve of mechanics that require you to do things like rest, slowly mend wounds, prepare and eat food or travel. Then when these same features involving realism and time are incorporated into an MMO, they object as if immersion no longer has a place in the land of elves and dwarves.
I contend that it does. I miss having to rest and worrying that we might not have enough time to recuperate before the enemy attacks us again. It was part of the gameplay, and calling it a waste of time or non-gameplay will never make it so... no matter how many times you repeat it.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
...and that was back in the days when school was still challenging not like today where everyone passes and the content is about as challenging as the games released today.
What they call Hard Mode today was Normal Mode back in our days. I just recently played "The Last of Us" for the first time in their special Ultra Hard Mode that has everything turned off even the UI and i feel hardly challenged.
We want more meaningful and challenging content. Sometimes that means longer to reach a goal but arriving there actually means something. It's an achievement, no, not like the achievements you get in games these days where you get an achievement for loading the game. I mean real achievements that took time, effort and dedication to get.
The current generation of games is tailored to a generation of kids that failed in school, that got pushed along and want everything for just showing up. That is as much effort as they are willing to put into something. I show up, give me the stuff.
I am a architect, I enjoyed letting people build it for me according to my wishes/demands. :P
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Then you perfectly understand what has been said.
You rather spend a long time designing and creating your perfect house with gravity defying features, great light and the challenge to make it all structurally sound and not screw up the statics than pick one from the Bauhaus Catalog, right?
I snipped part of what you said, but really wanted to approve and respond to this section.. This is part of that micro-management I would love to see back in RPGs again.. Managing your mana, energy, stamina or whatever people want to call it, should be part of your gaming experience, no different then a cars fuel efficiency in a race.. It requires planning and strategy and adds another element in adventuring.. I can't remember how many times in EQ or similar games I had to watch out for agro while I mend and heal.. It also opens up more role playing abilities like clarity, stamina buff or speed.. etc etc.. Surviving combat should be more then what happens in those 30 second burst between mobs..
I totally agree with you. The "casualitis" of today's games is the problem. People don't want to put in any effort or think. They want to be entertained and win 100% of the time. This is not what games have been about, failure was part of the gameplay.
In the history of video games, has there ever been a time when Video Games weren't considered an 'Entertainment Product' for the vast majority of people?
Other than the 1st video game (Pong), I can't think of one.
This 'Back in my day we walked in the snow' never happened and pretending it did is historical revisionism.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
Not everyone has standards. But almost nobody goes to watered down beer if there aren't other factors forcing them there, like cost.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Late reply, but... character creation != gameplay. Come on now.
Why would I try thinking in terms of whiskey? Timesinks aren't some desirable thing that makes for a better game. They're empty non-gameplay. It's watered down beer.
Do you realize what you're defending though? A game takes 15 secs to regen health and mana. A designer comes along, tweaks that number to 300 seconds so you spend nearly 5 long minutes between combat just sitting around waiting, and you're going to claim that's in any way better gameplay? That's not gameplay at all. Gameplay is decisions, and sitting around waiting involves no decisions.
If you enjoy a game telling you "wait here", and that's fun to you, more power to you. But most people understand that timesinks are water in the beer. Some water is required to make beer, but excessive water beyond that just ruins the product.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Did i say they are not? You might want to read what i wrote again. I was talking about 100% winning and having it easy not about games not being an entertainment product.
Just to entertain your misguided reply, there is a difference between interactive entertainment and non interactive. I would call most games non interactive because you just need to be barely alive to press a button.
You post just illustrates perfectly how you have no idea what resource management is and how these games where played. No one sat around for 300 seconds, you managed your limited resources with planning and many different options the game offered.
A healer for example has to make sure not to over-cure and waste MP, maybe it's better to throw a Regen spell on the DD than a full cure, how about using Bio 2 or Slow to reduce damage, hence reduce healing and mana use. I know your head is already spinning and you ask yourself: "What are all these spells, i only have 3 buttons, Damage, Heal, Teleport".
The Limited Mana and long recovery time served as an incentive to play better and manage your resources better, not as a time sink. It was only a time sink for idiots that do not understand how to play.
Your comment is the typical comment of the new generation of gamers that are not able to put 2 and 2 together and need to be hand held through the whole game getting every reward automatically for just holding the controller and pressing a button.
No, you just called it a 'problem'.
Some of the games where you couldn't fail are considered (by many) to be one of the best game ever made so not sure what you are talking about.
Yes, I'm talking about Lucas Arts games where it had no failure state. Grim Fandango, Monkey's Island, Day of the Tentacle etc
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
The failure state for these games where misleading puzzles and items, which are exactly the same as failure in other games and have been put into the mentioned games on purpose to make them harder and for you to fail until you figure out the correct solution.
Now, you can try and argue more but i think it's time to put the shovel down. I am afraid this conversation serves no purpose anymore,
Good bye.