Bringing back the direction and vision begun of the Pen & Paper RPG would make modern MMORPGs superior to what they are today and have been for years... We MMORPGers do not care what your MMOs do otherwise.
nah .. for those who like pnp rpg ... play pnp RPGs. Video games are entertaining in different ways.
Bringing back the direction and vision begun of the Pen & Paper RPG would make modern MMORPGs superior to what they are today and have been for years... We MMORPGers do not care what your MMOs do otherwise.
nah .. for those who like pnp rpg ... play pnp RPGs. Video games are entertaining in different ways.
Exactly. Anyone suggesting MMORPGs are like tabletop RPGs is someone who simply isn't very experienced in gaming (if they were experienced they'd know to compare MMORPGs with videogame RPGs instead.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Bringing back the direction and vision begun of the Pen & Paper RPG would make modern MMORPGs superior to what they are today and have been for years... We MMORPGers do not care what your MMOs do otherwise.
nah .. for those who like pnp rpg ... play pnp RPGs. Video games are entertaining in different ways.
Exactly. Anyone suggesting MMORPGs are like tabletop RPGs is someone who simply isn't very experienced in gaming (if they were experienced they'd know to compare MMORPGs with videogame RPGs instead.)
Having a common direction and vision doesn't imply that they are the same product.
I barely read your post OP, not going to lie. I just think MMOs are kind of a joke nowadays. I started back when AC2 was alive. So this maybe correlates to when I was 12-14. I'm 22 now. Games have really gotten dumbed down to casuals (for the most part) and are clones of clones of clones. You get what I'm trying to say.
Nowadays, games aren't really much about the adventure or about working through numerous steps to achieve something that actually throws a challenge at you. Now, all you need to do is invest some time to a certain activity and boom, you have tier 27 gear.
i miss games like Final Fantasy 11 or vanilla world of Warcraft. These games provided a challenge and an adventure. In FFXI you had to literally spend hours on hours to find a group and grind some mobs. Tedious? Yes. Rewarding? Hell yeah.
BEING a dragoon in Ffxi and owning Ifrit as a summon are still some of my top mmo moments.
Please come check out my stream. All the love is appreciated!
You post just illustrates perfectly how you have no idea what resource management is and how these games where played. No one sat around for 300 seconds, you managed your limited resources with planning and many different options the game offered.
A healer for example has to make sure not to over-cure and waste MP, maybe it's better to throw a Regen spell on the DD than a full cure, how about using Bio 2 or Slow to reduce damage, hence reduce healing and mana use. I know your head is already spinning and you ask yourself: "What are all these spells, i only have 3 buttons, Damage, Heal, Teleport".
The Limited Mana and long recovery time served as an incentive to play better and manage your resources better, not as a time sink. It was only a time sink for idiots that do not understand how to play.
Your comment is the typical comment of the new generation of gamers that are not able to put 2 and 2 together and need to be hand held through the whole game getting every reward automatically for just holding the controller and pressing a button.
Your argument hinges on the ideas that (1) 300 seconds is the full regen downtime and so nobody actually experienced it, and (2) managing resources is an interesting decision.
Yes, if you rest at 40% health you only wait 180 seconds (60% of 300). And clearly this doesn't change my point: when you're waiting for 180 seconds you're not playing the game for that length of time (the game is playing you.)
The decision to stop and rest at 40% is one decision every 10-30 minutes. Meanwhile if combat is well-designed you're going to be making similar decisions of varying degrees every few seconds (with some resource management being short-term (every ~10 sec) and others being longer-term (~5 min cooldowns) and lots of decisions falling in between.) So you gain one decision while losing hundreds of other decisions.
#2 is the reason attrition-based decisions are used less and less in gaming (and even removed from games that had them), because they're less frequent and often shallower than the decisions they replace. Thank you for getting into the depth of combat decision-making in your own post, as it assures me this point will really sink in for you -- you understand that good combat rotations offer a dense constant series of interesting decisions, and you can mentally compare that with the infrequent uninteresting decision of downtime timesinks.
With limited downtime, the game can make those decisions even more meaningful, by providing a real threat of those efficiency decisions mattering, and penalizing mistakes in every major fight. With excessive downtime, the penalty for those mistakes is very abstract and can actually be entirely avoided by simply resting a bit earlier than normal.
Agreed on all points. Very well thoughout and constructed illustration of the greater design principles at play here.
To add to the point. The situation as it relates to EQ was even worse. As the penalty for combat failure was so exessively punitive that no one in there right mind would or did risk not being completely prepared for the fight. There was no decision making in terms of resources, if the fight thought to be even remotely challenging you simply regened to full. Like you said the decision for conservation can be circumvented and for the most part it was completely bi-passed by excessive caution triggered by the insane death penalty.
But that wasn't even the worst of it. Resource regen wasn't even what you spent most of your time doing in EQ. Most of the time spent in EQ was at various "camp" spots waiting for respawn (or more liking sitting at the zone yelling for updates about what camp spots were open). Resource conservation wasn't even a factor. You see we gamers were clever and we figured out how to time the killing of mobs so that respawn would be spread out in such a way so that we only had to engage one mob at a time. All the clever design and difficulty of the multi-mob encounter went out the window as we "gamed" the mechanics.
That's not entirely true. The mechanics of the game were such that you werent in an instance, and other groups could get to that boss mob sooner and take it from you. You had to weigh that with trying to decide to regen to full, etc etc. In dungeons it was very important to maintain pulls and do it quickly enough or you would never make it to the boss that dropped the loot. Mobs in the way would respawn before you could get to it. So, yes, all of these things weighed into the risk/reward and is part of what made the game great.
EQ's mechanics were really only bad/punishing for soloing. IMO thats not a problem, you shouldn't be soloing in an MMO. But times have changed and MMO's are more MSO's (massively single player online blah blah blah). So the idea of having game mechanics that actually push you into grouping and socializing is mind boggling to most gamers now. To most gamers "multiplayer" just means being in the same place as other humans, not interacting with them in any possible manner, just the simple fact they are there running around.
EQ and early MMO's were predicated on the idea of actually being in a world with hundreds of other humans and were designed around creating ways to get those people to work together towards a common goal.
In EQ that was PVE, in UO it was PVP, either way it was about being in groups.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
That's not entirely true. The mechanics of the game were such that you werent in an instance, and other groups could get to that boss mob sooner and take it from you. You had to weigh that with trying to decide to regen to full, etc etc. In dungeons it was very important to maintain pulls and do it quickly enough or you would never make it to the boss that dropped the loot. Mobs in the way would respawn before you could get to it. So, yes, all of these things weighed into the risk/reward and is part of what made the game great.
EQ's mechanics were really only bad/punishing for soloing. IMO thats not a problem, you shouldn't be soloing in an MMO. But times have changed and MMO's are more MSO's (massively single player online blah blah blah). So the idea of having game mechanics that actually push you into grouping and socializing is mind boggling to most gamers now. To most gamers "multiplayer" just means being in the same place as other humans, not interacting with them in any possible manner, just the simple fact they are there running around.
EQ and early MMO's were predicated on the idea of actually being in a world with hundreds of other humans and were designed around creating ways to get those people to work together towards a common goal.
In EQ that was PVE, in UO it was PVP, either way it was about being in groups.
In EQ it was PvE AND PvP for many of us. They had quite a few PvP servers and I can tell you I enjoyed them way more than PvP in UO or any "PvP" title since. Nothing was more exciting to compete over in a PvP game than the PvE content in EverQuest, and its the biggest drawback for me in sandbox titles that ultimately offer nothing to do or anything worthwhile to compete over.
That's not entirely true. The mechanics of the game were such that you werent in an instance, and other groups could get to that boss mob sooner and take it from you. You had to weigh that with trying to decide to regen to full, etc etc. In dungeons it was very important to maintain pulls and do it quickly enough or you would never make it to the boss that dropped the loot. Mobs in the way would respawn before you could get to it. So, yes, all of these things weighed into the risk/reward and is part of what made the game great.
EQ's mechanics were really only bad/punishing for soloing. IMO thats not a problem, you shouldn't be soloing in an MMO. But times have changed and MMO's are more MSO's (massively single player online blah blah blah). So the idea of having game mechanics that actually push you into grouping and socializing is mind boggling to most gamers now. To most gamers "multiplayer" just means being in the same place as other humans, not interacting with them in any possible manner, just the simple fact they are there running around.
EQ and early MMO's were predicated on the idea of actually being in a world with hundreds of other humans and were designed around creating ways to get those people to work together towards a common goal.
In EQ that was PVE, in UO it was PVP, either way it was about being in groups.
In EQ it was PvE AND PvP for many of us. They had quite a few PvP servers and I can tell you I enjoyed them way more than PvP in UO or any "PvP" title since. Nothing was more exciting to compete over in a PvP game than the PvE content in EverQuest, and its the biggest drawback for me in sandbox titles that ultimately offer nothing to do or anything worthwhile to compete over.
True, but 90% of the servers were still PVE, and if you watch the 10 year anniversary video they made they even talk about how they played UO and specifically designed the game not to be like it because of how caustic the community was. So while they had PVP servers, PVP absolutely was not the focus, and all balance decisions and game changes were made specifically for PVE with PVP as an afterthought.
That being said i had nothing against the PVP people. You guys were ballsy. I was playing EQ when rallos zek server managed to wake / kill the sleeper. I remember seeing all the news about it and thought it was BS.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Bringing back the direction and vision begun of the Pen & Paper RPG would make modern MMORPGs superior to what they are today and have been for years... We MMORPGers do not care what your MMOs do otherwise.
nah .. for those who like pnp rpg ... play pnp RPGs. Video games are entertaining in different ways.
Exactly. Anyone suggesting MMORPGs are like tabletop RPGs is someone who simply isn't very experienced in gaming (if they were experienced they'd know to compare MMORPGs with videogame RPGs instead.)
Having a common direction and vision doesn't imply that they are the same product.
Having a common direction & vision with medium so different? That is just silly.
Video games can handle tons of characters, with physics simulation.
PnP cannot even handle 10 NPCs without rolling dices for an hour just to simulate a few seconds, but anything can happen, and not everything needs to be program in advance.
They are good at different things .. i certainly do not hope that they have the same common direction and visions .. otherwise they won't be very good entertainment.
Bringing back the direction and vision begun of the Pen & Paper RPG would make modern MMORPGs superior to what they are today and have been for years... We MMORPGers do not care what your MMOs do otherwise.
nah .. for those who like pnp rpg ... play pnp RPGs. Video games are entertaining in different ways.
Exactly. Anyone suggesting MMORPGs are like tabletop RPGs is someone who simply isn't very experienced in gaming (if they were experienced they'd know to compare MMORPGs with videogame RPGs instead.)
Having a common direction and vision doesn't imply that they are the same product.
Having a common direction & vision with medium so different? That is just silly.
Video games can handle tons of characters, with physics simulation.
PnP cannot even handle 10 NPCs without rolling dices for an hour just to simulate a few seconds, but anything can happen, and not everything needs to be program in advance.
They are good at different things .. i certainly do not hope that they have the same common direction and visions .. otherwise they won't be very good entertainment.
I know, we shall create a new MMO genre. We shall call it MMOPNP! They shall consist of worlds that we can play our characters within. Our characters will be able to interact with and within those worlds. Our characters will be able to interact with and within the stories of those worlds. Our characters will be able to forge their own stories within those worlds. Our characters will be able to be customized in playstyle and appearances. The game will allow for long periods of time of entertainment through exploration, mysteries, suspense, horror, drama, achievement, that all moves deeper and deeper as one progresses their character! Oh wait... That would be what an MMORPG was supposed to be, huh...
Don't worry about him, he is just pretending to be dense. He is MMORPG.com #1 troll.
Bringing back the direction and vision begun of the Pen & Paper RPG would make modern MMORPGs superior to what they are today and have been for years... We MMORPGers do not care what your MMOs do otherwise.
nah .. for those who like pnp rpg ... play pnp RPGs. Video games are entertaining in different ways.
Exactly. Anyone suggesting MMORPGs are like tabletop RPGs is someone who simply isn't very experienced in gaming (if they were experienced they'd know to compare MMORPGs with videogame RPGs instead.)
Having a common direction and vision doesn't imply that they are the same product.
Having a common direction & vision with medium so different? That is just silly.
Video games can handle tons of characters, with physics simulation.
PnP cannot even handle 10 NPCs without rolling dices for an hour just to simulate a few seconds, but anything can happen, and not everything needs to be program in advance.
They are good at different things .. i certainly do not hope that they have the same common direction and visions .. otherwise they won't be very good entertainment.
I know, we shall create a new MMO genre. We shall call it MMOPNP! They shall consist of worlds that we can play our characters within. Our characters will be able to interact with and within those worlds. Our characters will be able to interact with and within the stories of those worlds. Our characters will be able to forge their own stories within those worlds. Our characters will be able to be customized in playstyle and appearances. The game will allow for long periods of time of entertainment through exploration, mysteries, suspense, horror, drama, achievement, that all moves deeper and deeper as one progresses their character! Oh wait... That would be what an MMORPG was supposed to be, huh...
Don't worry about him, he is just pretending to be dense. He is MMORPG.com #1 troll.
Thanks, but I was not aiming my reply at him, because I think I have figured that one out mostly ;p
Speaking of which, "Welcome back nari!" It was like a good month or two of no posts from you... unless I am mistaken? And gogo 22k!
I often see mmo vets bemoan current titles because dungeons and the like can be soloed or done in 5-10 mins unlike in the past where it was face-stompingly hard (I'm assuming). Nothing wrong wrong with this, I like a challenge myself, but thinking about it further I realized something. Isn't this content BETTER for vets? It's probably not a stretch to say this content was designed with you in mind. By now, most vets are in their 30s or 40s with a family, job, etc with very sparse time.
If challenging/long content WAS developed vets wouldnt be able to participate in it because of their limited time. So shouldnt we be seeing the opposite? Shouldnt vets be praising new developers for making content they can solo between a hectic life?
Well here's the thing, most vets, like myself, in their 30's and 40's have been multi-tasking life and their games since our teens. Only difference being instead of a real job and family, we had, back then, after school homework, sports/recreation, girl/boyfriends and part-time jobs. Case in point, real vets don't need games dumbed down to fit a certain life-style, as we have always factored in our game time with real life.
That is the most accurate statement I have seen on this site for a long while kuddos to you
Bringing back the direction and vision begun of the Pen & Paper RPG would make modern MMORPGs superior to what they are today and have been for years... We MMORPGers do not care what your MMOs do otherwise.
nah .. for those who like pnp rpg ... play pnp RPGs. Video games are entertaining in different ways.
Exactly. Anyone suggesting MMORPGs are like tabletop RPGs is someone who simply isn't very experienced in gaming (if they were experienced they'd know to compare MMORPGs with videogame RPGs instead.)
Having a common direction and vision doesn't imply that they are the same product.
Having a common direction & vision with medium so different? That is just silly.
Video games can handle tons of characters, with physics simulation.
PnP cannot even handle 10 NPCs without rolling dices for an hour just to simulate a few seconds, but anything can happen, and not everything needs to be program in advance.
They are good at different things .. i certainly do not hope that they have the same common direction and visions .. otherwise they won't be very good entertainment.
I know, we shall create a new MMO genre. We shall call it MMOPNP! They shall consist of worlds that we can play our characters within. Our characters will be able to interact with and within those worlds. Our characters will be able to interact with and within the stories of those worlds. Our characters will be able to forge their own stories within those worlds. Our characters will be able to be customized in playstyle and appearances. The game will allow for long periods of time of entertainment through exploration, mysteries, suspense, horror, drama, achievement, that all moves deeper and deeper as one progresses their character! Oh wait... That would be what an MMORPG was supposed to be, huh...
nah .. mmorpg was never supposed to be like that .. at least not one of the first one like EQ. You know that EQ is just a hack-n-slash (abate multiplayer) game based on DikuMUD, right?
and whatever mmorpg is "supposed to be" ... more than a decade ago .. is just irrelevant now. It has changed, and became, to the delight of many, more like games.
That's not entirely true. The mechanics of the game were such that you werent in an instance, and other groups could get to that boss mob sooner and take it from you. You had to weigh that with trying to decide to regen to full, etc etc. In dungeons it was very important to maintain pulls and do it quickly enough or you would never make it to the boss that dropped the loot. Mobs in the way would respawn before you could get to it. So, yes, all of these things weighed into the risk/reward and is part of what made the game great.
EQ's mechanics were really only bad/punishing for soloing. IMO thats not a problem, you shouldn't be soloing in an MMO. But times have changed and MMO's are more MSO's (massively single player online blah blah blah). So the idea of having game mechanics that actually push you into grouping and socializing is mind boggling to most gamers now. To most gamers "multiplayer" just means being in the same place as other humans, not interacting with them in any possible manner, just the simple fact they are there running around.
EQ and early MMO's were predicated on the idea of actually being in a world with hundreds of other humans and were designed around creating ways to get those people to work together towards a common goal.
In EQ that was PVE, in UO it was PVP, either way it was about being in groups.
In EQ it was PvE AND PvP for many of us. They had quite a few PvP servers and I can tell you I enjoyed them way more than PvP in UO or any "PvP" title since. Nothing was more exciting to compete over in a PvP game than the PvE content in EverQuest, and its the biggest drawback for me in sandbox titles that ultimately offer nothing to do or anything worthwhile to compete over.
True, but 90% of the servers were still PVE, and if you watch the 10 year anniversary video they made they even talk about how they played UO and specifically designed the game not to be like it because of how caustic the community was. So while they had PVP servers, PVP absolutely was not the focus, and all balance decisions and game changes were made specifically for PVE with PVP as an afterthought.
That being said i had nothing against the PVP people. You guys were ballsy. I was playing EQ when rallos zek server managed to wake / kill the sleeper. I remember seeing all the news about it and thought it was BS.
Thats why PvP in EQ was so good. They focused on making an enjoyable game first, then they tweaked PvP without changing the game. The classes maintained their identity, combat was strategic, and whether you were fighting other players or not, there was still fun to be had and ways to progress your character.
Its actually somewhat of a misconception that "PvP was an afterthought." They had a PvP server even in beta. It was just not their goal to make PvP the end-all-be-all, and for that they ended up with a game that was fun both with and without PvP and provided two very diverse experiences (I had max level characters on both Tarew marr and Rallos zek).
Its also a misconception that to make a good PvP game, PvP has to be the foundation. In reality, the game has to be fun, the world has to be compelling and offer engaging long term ways to progress your character. Otherwise, you end up being bored, fighting over territory that really means nothing in the grand scheme of things because the world is just a lifeless backdrop that provides the character with nothing and isn't worth fighting over.
nah .. mmorpg was never supposed to be like that .. at least not one of the first one like EQ. You know that EQ is just a hack-n-slash (abate multiplayer) game based on DikuMUD, right?
and whatever mmorpg is "supposed to be" ... more than a decade ago .. is just irrelevant now. It has changed, and became, to the delight of many, more like games.
Right, but don't discourage the guy from his MMOPNP idea. It's one of the most logical things he's ever said, to actually use a different name to apply to the different genre he describes.
Clearly MMORPGs weren't "supposed to be" what he describes, but instead of repeatedly pointing out why that's wrong and illogical and lacks supporting evidence we should encourage his use of MMOPNP to apply to this very clearly different genre he imagines.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
nah .. mmorpg was never supposed to be like that .. at least not one of the first one like EQ. You know that EQ is just a hack-n-slash (abate multiplayer) game based on DikuMUD, right?
and whatever mmorpg is "supposed to be" ... more than a decade ago .. is just irrelevant now. It has changed, and became, to the delight of many, more like games.
Right, but don't discourage the guy from his MMOPNP idea. It's one of the most logical things he's ever said, to actually use a different name to apply to the different genre he describes.
Clearly MMORPGs weren't "supposed to be" what he describes, but instead of repeatedly pointing out why that's wrong and illogical and lacks supporting evidence we should encourage his use of MMOPNP to apply to this very clearly different genre he imagines.
You are absolutely right! Not one single person EVER considered taking the Pen & Paper / Tabletop RPG from it's paper form, in order to create a form that is able to deliver audio and visual effects while letting the computer programs sap up the mundane dice rolls parts... Nope, that has never been considered... Nope, that was never remotely an intention...
nah .. mmorpg was never supposed to be like that .. at least not one of the first one like EQ. You know that EQ is just a hack-n-slash (abate multiplayer) game based on DikuMUD, right?
and whatever mmorpg is "supposed to be" ... more than a decade ago .. is just irrelevant now. It has changed, and became, to the delight of many, more like games.
Right, but don't discourage the guy from his MMOPNP idea. It's one of the most logical things he's ever said, to actually use a different name to apply to the different genre he describes.
Clearly MMORPGs weren't "supposed to be" what he describes, but instead of repeatedly pointing out why that's wrong and illogical and lacks supporting evidence we should encourage his use of MMOPNP to apply to this very clearly different genre he imagines.
True ... I would not discourage that at all although the "online" part in MMOPNP seems to be contradicting the PNP part. I suppose you can use "electronic paper"?
It is quite interesting, though, that people are deluding themselves of what a genre "should be", instead of just play the games and enjoy.
nah .. mmorpg was never supposed to be like that .. at least not one of the first one like EQ. You know that EQ is just a hack-n-slash (abate multiplayer) game based on DikuMUD, right?
and whatever mmorpg is "supposed to be" ... more than a decade ago .. is just irrelevant now. It has changed, and became, to the delight of many, more like games.
Right, but don't discourage the guy from his MMOPNP idea. It's one of the most logical things he's ever said, to actually use a different name to apply to the different genre he describes.
Clearly MMORPGs weren't "supposed to be" what he describes, but instead of repeatedly pointing out why that's wrong and illogical and lacks supporting evidence we should encourage his use of MMOPNP to apply to this very clearly different genre he imagines.
True ... I would not discourage that at all although the "online" part in MMOPNP seems to be contradicting the PNP part. I suppose you can use "electronic paper"?
It is quite interesting, though, that people are deluding themselves of what a genre "should be", instead of just play the games and enjoy.
Most likely people are looking for something in which there is nothing to replace it.
Introverts liked old school games despite where interaction was forced and things were somewhat painful to go through at times. It kept certain types of players away from the games.
Today games are dominated by extroverts just like the real world. There are a lot more extroverts then there are introverts. Extroverts prefer to seek out people on their own instead of being forced into it.
nah .. mmorpg was never supposed to be like that .. at least not one of the first one like EQ. You know that EQ is just a hack-n-slash (abate multiplayer) game based on DikuMUD, right?
and whatever mmorpg is "supposed to be" ... more than a decade ago .. is just irrelevant now. It has changed, and became, to the delight of many, more like games.
Right, but don't discourage the guy from his MMOPNP idea. It's one of the most logical things he's ever said, to actually use a different name to apply to the different genre he describes.
Clearly MMORPGs weren't "supposed to be" what he describes, but instead of repeatedly pointing out why that's wrong and illogical and lacks supporting evidence we should encourage his use of MMOPNP to apply to this very clearly different genre he imagines.
True ... I would not discourage that at all although the "online" part in MMOPNP seems to be contradicting the PNP part. I suppose you can use "electronic paper"?
It is quite interesting, though, that people are deluding themselves of what a genre "should be", instead of just play the games and enjoy.
NWN1&2, Sword Coast legends.
but discussin should be about is PnP feeling possible in "persistant MMO world". Farming same boss for a drop, for instance, almost instant respawns and whole "persistancy" goes against everything PnP stand for.
Theres more PnP/RPG in todays themeparks with one off quests than in games like EQ with all farming/grinidng/camping required.
Comments
nah .. for those who like pnp rpg ... play pnp RPGs. Video games are entertaining in different ways.
It is and always has been the Pen & Paper RPGers (the proper MMORPGers)
VS the MMO gamers.
Old VS New is irrelevant.
Maybe, Hardcore vs. Casual?
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
Exactly. Anyone suggesting MMORPGs are like tabletop RPGs is someone who simply isn't very experienced in gaming (if they were experienced they'd know to compare MMORPGs with videogame RPGs instead.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Having a common direction and vision doesn't imply that they are the same product.
I barely read your post OP, not going to lie. I just think MMOs are kind of a joke nowadays. I started back when AC2 was alive. So this maybe correlates to when I was 12-14. I'm 22 now. Games have really gotten dumbed down to casuals (for the most part) and are clones of clones of clones. You get what I'm trying to say.
Nowadays, games aren't really much about the adventure or about working through numerous steps to achieve something that actually throws a challenge at you. Now, all you need to do is invest some time to a certain activity and boom, you have tier 27 gear.
i miss games like Final Fantasy 11 or vanilla world of Warcraft. These games provided a challenge and an adventure. In FFXI you had to literally spend hours on hours to find a group and grind some mobs. Tedious? Yes. Rewarding? Hell yeah.
BEING a dragoon in Ffxi and owning Ifrit as a summon are still some of my top mmo moments.
That's not entirely true. The mechanics of the game were such that you werent in an instance, and other groups could get to that boss mob sooner and take it from you. You had to weigh that with trying to decide to regen to full, etc etc. In dungeons it was very important to maintain pulls and do it quickly enough or you would never make it to the boss that dropped the loot. Mobs in the way would respawn before you could get to it. So, yes, all of these things weighed into the risk/reward and is part of what made the game great.
EQ's mechanics were really only bad/punishing for soloing. IMO thats not a problem, you shouldn't be soloing in an MMO. But times have changed and MMO's are more MSO's (massively single player online blah blah blah). So the idea of having game mechanics that actually push you into grouping and socializing is mind boggling to most gamers now. To most gamers "multiplayer" just means being in the same place as other humans, not interacting with them in any possible manner, just the simple fact they are there running around.
EQ and early MMO's were predicated on the idea of actually being in a world with hundreds of other humans and were designed around creating ways to get those people to work together towards a common goal.
In EQ that was PVE, in UO it was PVP, either way it was about being in groups.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
In EQ it was PvE AND PvP for many of us. They had quite a few PvP servers and I can tell you I enjoyed them way more than PvP in UO or any "PvP" title since. Nothing was more exciting to compete over in a PvP game than the PvE content in EverQuest, and its the biggest drawback for me in sandbox titles that ultimately offer nothing to do or anything worthwhile to compete over.
True, but 90% of the servers were still PVE, and if you watch the 10 year anniversary video they made they even talk about how they played UO and specifically designed the game not to be like it because of how caustic the community was. So while they had PVP servers, PVP absolutely was not the focus, and all balance decisions and game changes were made specifically for PVE with PVP as an afterthought.
That being said i had nothing against the PVP people. You guys were ballsy. I was playing EQ when rallos zek server managed to wake / kill the sleeper. I remember seeing all the news about it and thought it was BS.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Having a common direction & vision with medium so different? That is just silly.
Video games can handle tons of characters, with physics simulation.
PnP cannot even handle 10 NPCs without rolling dices for an hour just to simulate a few seconds, but anything can happen, and not everything needs to be program in advance.
They are good at different things .. i certainly do not hope that they have the same common direction and visions .. otherwise they won't be very good entertainment.
Don't worry about him, he is just pretending to be dense. He is MMORPG.com #1 troll.
Thanks, but I was not aiming my reply at him, because I think I have figured that one out mostly ;p
Speaking of which, "Welcome back nari!" It was like a good month or two of no posts from you... unless I am mistaken? And gogo 22k!
That is the most accurate statement I have seen on this site for a long while kuddos to you
nah .. mmorpg was never supposed to be like that .. at least not one of the first one like EQ. You know that EQ is just a hack-n-slash (abate multiplayer) game based on DikuMUD, right?
and whatever mmorpg is "supposed to be" ... more than a decade ago .. is just irrelevant now. It has changed, and became, to the delight of many, more like games.
almost .. 22k .. will be there soon
Do i get a official "achievement" when I get there?
Actually, I am surprised you do not already have some alternative / rare title (other than the expert/hardcore, etc titles).
Thats why PvP in EQ was so good. They focused on making an enjoyable game first, then they tweaked PvP without changing the game. The classes maintained their identity, combat was strategic, and whether you were fighting other players or not, there was still fun to be had and ways to progress your character.
Its actually somewhat of a misconception that "PvP was an afterthought." They had a PvP server even in beta. It was just not their goal to make PvP the end-all-be-all, and for that they ended up with a game that was fun both with and without PvP and provided two very diverse experiences (I had max level characters on both Tarew marr and Rallos zek).
Its also a misconception that to make a good PvP game, PvP has to be the foundation. In reality, the game has to be fun, the world has to be compelling and offer engaging long term ways to progress your character. Otherwise, you end up being bored, fighting over territory that really means nothing in the grand scheme of things because the world is just a lifeless backdrop that provides the character with nothing and isn't worth fighting over.
Right, but don't discourage the guy from his MMOPNP idea. It's one of the most logical things he's ever said, to actually use a different name to apply to the different genre he describes.
Clearly MMORPGs weren't "supposed to be" what he describes, but instead of repeatedly pointing out why that's wrong and illogical and lacks supporting evidence we should encourage his use of MMOPNP to apply to this very clearly different genre he imagines.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You are absolutely right! Not one single person EVER considered taking the Pen & Paper / Tabletop RPG from it's paper form, in order to create a form that is able to deliver audio and visual effects while letting the computer programs sap up the mundane dice rolls parts... Nope, that has never been considered... Nope, that was never remotely an intention...
True ... I would not discourage that at all although the "online" part in MMOPNP seems to be contradicting the PNP part. I suppose you can use "electronic paper"?
It is quite interesting, though, that people are deluding themselves of what a genre "should be", instead of just play the games and enjoy.
Most likely people are looking for something in which there is nothing to replace it.
Introverts liked old school games despite where interaction was forced and things were somewhat painful to go through at times. It kept certain types of players away from the games.
Today games are dominated by extroverts just like the real world. There are a lot more extroverts then there are introverts. Extroverts prefer to seek out people on their own instead of being forced into it.
NWN1&2, Sword Coast legends.
but discussin should be about is PnP feeling possible in "persistant MMO world". Farming same boss for a drop, for instance, almost instant respawns and whole "persistancy" goes against everything PnP stand for.
Theres more PnP/RPG in todays themeparks with one off quests than in games like EQ with all farming/grinidng/camping required.