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CIG officialy states: AC is already the best space sim ever

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  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Member RarePosts: 2,094
    Originally posted by Dakeru
    Originally posted by Yaevindusk
    Originally posted by Dakeru
    Just because you want to to whiteknight your beloved company again doesn't make it true when you call consoles mediocre.

    Here's an excellent read with regards to why consoles in general are bad for the gaming industry. 

    Oh stupid me!

    And I thought the thing hurting the industry was people tossing several hundred dollars at ideas instead of waiting and buying a finished game for 50$.

     

    'Tis part of that.  In fact, if I recall, there is a dedicated section with regards to it in the link.  The problem as a whole is console manufacturers and not the idea of a console or the playerbase (granted, every fan base will needlessly defend something... which is just what we've been taught to do by big companies).

     

    Personally, I'm fine with people loving their consoles -- I don't think any reasonable person would say otherwise.  I'm still in love my my PSX and PS2.  But the defense of console manufacturers is oft influenced through ignorance of the real issues.  That being "console wars", exclusives, and manufacturers wanting absolute control and lockdown on the industry (among other things of which I will just be repeating what the page says -- it doing a better job at it, at that).

     

    Make no mistake, they would try to make their consoles always online and prevent used videos games if they could.  They have already banned consoles for "Unauthorized" repairs, and were caught using actual PCs to showcase their console games and thus misrepresent things.  More control means more money, and the privilege to publish games on their platform through licenses and the like.  You'd be surprised of what things they (console manufacturers) and console publishers can and are getting away with -- including bullying studios.  Which leads to 9 year old console lifespans, lack of innovation and risk taking, etc.  Granted, many publishers in general do this no matter the platform (though it's less seen on the PC scene despite it having much more games as a whole).  But one step at a time; the more people who are not locked down by console manufacturers, the more the circumstances will change and the games industry will be allowed to breath and make profit themselves.

     

    Or at least, that would be the case if there weren't people making a ruckus on the smallest things.  Which could be argued is a by product of many things, including people getting tired of marketing tactics.  Gone are the days when things are gamers first, which leads to money.  Once you train your pet, you can stop giving them treats and just take the sure fire way of making money.  This is where new innovations and ideas come up -- which the old school tries to prevent and control -- to offer new devices and services.

     

    Steam is just a first step.  Indie titles have such luxuries and nice homes is a first step.  Attempts at trying to give modders income is another step (though misfired one that shouldn't of been started on a game that has existed for years).  All this new technology and resolution and virtual reality and monitor syncs are first steps.

     

    The next "console" will likely be exclaimed to be a "PC" in its own right.  Or a new convenience offered instead.  Microsoft is already preparing for all this with Windows 10.  The cross play between PC and Xboxone in a "buddy buddy" relationship.  If the PC takes off even more, they will likely use this as a foothood -- in addition to being the main OS that most gamers use.

    Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing).  German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century.  Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now).  I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things).  In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while.  If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.

    Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this.  If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own.  Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis.  Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332

    I am always straight forward and have been saying that SC is a big time over rated game.

    However in saying that,it may very well be the best space sim,but that is saying nothing because the genre is very weak at this time.

    Space sim also happens to be the hardest genre to make a high quality game.I am 100% certain SC will not make a high quality space sim game because it will be missing several aspects of the genre that would suffice to my standards.

    What i have seen from SC is a non stop goal towards selling/rmt gaming and NOT building on triple A standards.Every single aspect they release is based on selling something,a VERY lame standard to set,it should be about the quality and depth of the game equally as much as rmt.

    This game alone will go down as THE GAME that proved rmt gaming is by far the worst idea ever pushed by Smedley and others.A subscription would do miles more for this game and it's player base that rmt cannot do.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,078
    3D space sims may be among the easiest games to design, but to stand out they may require exceptional implementation. I've never given up on this genre, since I was a kid; growing up I played X-Wing, Tie Fighter, Escape Velocity, and then Vendetta Online. The MMO aspect requires another set of implementation parameters, and leads to an even deeper UX.

    Off the top of my head, I can think of:

    Star Citizen
    Elite: Dangerous
    Vendetta Online
    No Man's Sky
    Kerbal Space Program
    Space Engineers
    Wings of St. Nazaire
    Rodina
    Limit Theory
    Infinity: The Quest for Earth

    Most of these are in development, and most of these are not MMOs. However, as a space sim fan there are plenty of reasons to be happy.

    Some of the things Star Citizen's development team have done are wrong, but in design it looks like a game I would eagerly play. It is not past redemption. Here's hoping.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,328
    Originally posted by Phaserlight
    **snip **

    Some of the things Star Citizen's development team have done are wrong, but in design it looks like a game I would eagerly play. It is not past redemption. Here's hoping.

    Which development decisions would you personally consider wrong ?  (leaving out the controversial marketing decisions)

    Personally I would have wished for a deeper, individualized crafting system more in the line of SWG crafting. Where someone could make a name for themselves as a designer  (e.g. in my case "Aratech"  speeders / droids / spaceships / housing in SWG, for a time the best on the server hitpoint wise and stat wise, because i used rare minerals gathered over years). 

    In SC that would be more in the line of running a "tuning" shop to make ships better and not the full production cycle from rare ore up to readymade spacecraft single handed - which would be too much for an individual to run single-handed. And the minute I type "single-handed", i know that someone will do this sometimes  in SC (just like people have buildt Titans singlehanded in EVE Online, another truely monumental task). 

     

    Have fun

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Originally posted by Dakeru
    Originally posted by Yaevindusk
    Originally posted by Dakeru
    Just because you want to to whiteknight your beloved company again doesn't make it true when you call consoles mediocre.

    Here's an excellent read with regards to why consoles in general are bad for the gaming industry. 

    Oh stupid me!

    And I thought the thing hurting the industry was people tossing several hundred dollars at ideas instead of waiting and buying a finished game for 50$.

    Console gamers are just as bad as PC gamers when it comes to spending habits, lol

     

    Console gamers don't buy games before they're finished ? So they never pre-order ?

    Console games are only bought when they're "finished". What, no DLC's on console ? 0.o

    Console gamers don't buy DLC-packs in advance ? No "season pass" for DLC's on consoles ?

     

    And what is the PC-based equivalent of the monthly subscription to "XBox-Live" and "Playstation-Plus" ?

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,803
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko
    Originally posted by Dakeru
    Originally posted by Yaevindusk
    Originally posted by Dakeru
    Just because you want to to whiteknight your beloved company again doesn't make it true when you call consoles mediocre.

    Here's an excellent read with regards to why consoles in general are bad for the gaming industry. 

    Oh stupid me!

    And I thought the thing hurting the industry was people tossing several hundred dollars at ideas instead of waiting and buying a finished game for 50$.

    Console gamers are just as bad as PC gamers when it comes to spending habits, lol

     

    Console gamers don't buy games before they're finished ? So they never pre-order ?

    Console games are only bought when they're "finished". What, no DLC's on console ? 0.o

    Console gamers don't buy DLC-packs in advance ? No "season pass" for DLC's on consoles ?

     

    And what is the PC-based equivalent of the monthly subscription to "XBox-Live" and "Playstation-Plus" ?

    At least prepurchasing means the game will be released within a short time. A few months at max.

    That is nowhere near the same as spending hundreds of dollars to get pay to win items for a game that will be released years later.

    Harbinger of Fools
  • BascolaBascola Member UncommonPosts: 425
    Originally posted by kitarad
    Doesn't his player base buy pictures of spaceships ? 

    This Project is easy the worst offender when it comes to selling promises for money. I thought $150 Alpha access was bad but then this showed up.

    A game where the developer has the player base pay for every single asset they create. It's genius, i got to admit that.

    [mod edit]

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    Hey Chris Roberts, I played a Wing Commander game for about 10 minutes before deciding it was total crap - so I went back to playing X-Wing/Tie-Fighter and/or Freespace - far, far superior games.

    Guess what?

    In addition to PC gaming, I've also been a console player since Nintendo - guess I'm a primitive human being then huh?

    Go F yourself Chris Roberts.

    PC Master race of NOTHING but being a big bag of douches. 

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,328

    That Alpha level access costs 150 $ is a myth/negative propaganda and verifiably wrong.

     

    Alpha level access (and therefore the full game later)  was available for as low as 25 $ at one point.

    At the moment it costs 54 $. Or 36 $ if you only want the game and no Alpha or Beta access.

     

    If you chose a pledge package with one of the 22  available ships that you can already fly, you can get started immediately.

     

    No one has to pay more unless (s)he wants to. Everything is available in game for in game money (no real  cash needed).

     

    Have fun

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Originally posted by Erillion

    That Alpha level access costs 150 $ is a myth/negative propaganda and verifiably wrong.

     

    Alpha level access (and therefore the full game later)  was available for as low as 25 $ at one point.

    At the moment it costs 54 $. Or 36 $ if you only want the game and no Alpha or Beta access.

     

    If you chose a pledge package with one of the 22  available ships that you can already fly, you can get started immediately.

     

    No one has to pay more unless (s)he wants to. Everything is available in game for in game money (no real  cash needed).

     

    Have fun

    Don't think Bascola was referring to SC for 150 at alpha level but rather the trend to sell alpha access for MMO's in development in general.

    I also wasn't aware the game was finished and released since you say everything in game is available for in game money.

  • wuckswucks Member UncommonPosts: 114

    "So a mod decided that we can't make funny Hitchhiker references but CIG can" - I'd need to double check this with the internet but I'm pretty sure the mmorpg.com mods remit doesn't quite extend to video game developers... yet. One day, eh lads?


    And to go back to your previous point - if not the player base who exactly do you think should be providing money to make the game assets in an entirely crowd funded game?

  • BascolaBascola Member UncommonPosts: 425
    Originally posted by wucks

    And to go back to your previous point - if not the player base who exactly do you think should be providing money to make the game assets in an entirely crowd funded game?

    Oh sure, the community should fund it but a Spaceship Model does not cost that much to design. They sell them for up to $1000 a pop and seeing as hundreds buy them i think it's a little overpriced, so what is done with the rest? 

    Fancy commercials and Marketing of cause nothing to do with game assets! Any single of those Commercials has cost them a lot more than designing the spaceship. High quality cutscenes are still the most time and cost intensive

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,328
    Originally posted by Kefo

    I also wasn't aware the game was finished and released since you say everything in game is available for in game money.

    I was primarily referring to the game when its  finished and released, but stuff IS already available NOW in Alpha via the REC system for in game currency. See here:

    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/faq/rec-faq

     

    Have fun

     

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Originally posted by Erillion
    Originally posted by Kefo

    I also wasn't aware the game was finished and released since you say everything in game is available for in game money.

    I was primarily referring to the game when its  finished and released, but stuff IS already available NOW in Alpha via the REC system for in game currency. See here:

    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/faq/rec-faq

     

    Have fun

     

    ahh so back to claiming you can see into the future :P

    Sure CR can keep his promise and completely close down the cash shop except for some small minor things and I truly hope he does but I will ask again do you really think he will cut the head off his cash cow?

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,328
    Originally posted by Kefo

    ahh so back to claiming you can see into the future :P

    Sure CR can keep his promise and completely close down the cash shop except for some small minor things and I truly hope he does but I will ask again do you really think he will cut the head off his cash cow?

    Thats the (often !) officially stated position and I personally think they will not change this. 

    Answer to your question about the "cash cow": yes.  CIG has plenty of other options to generate additional income e.g. via additional mission packs and military and non-military solo story campaigns.

     

    Have fun

     

     

     

  • CaldrinCaldrin Member UncommonPosts: 4,505
    Wing Commader series was good but for me it was always the X-Wing and Tie Fighter games that I have the best memories of.
  • TheYear1500TheYear1500 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    Originally posted by Caldrin
    Wing Commader series was good but for me it was always the X-Wing and Tie Fighter games that I have the best memories of.

    Then check out

     

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/impellerstudios/starfighter-inc/description

     

    Being made by some of those guys.  

     

     

    I had a lot of fun playing privateer, and some with wing commander.  I find it funny that CR bashes consoles and yet he is always seen playing on a Xbox controller.  

  • KabaalKabaal Member UncommonPosts: 3,042
    Originally posted by TheYear1500

     

    I had a lot of fun playing privateer, and some with wing commander.  I find it funny that CR bashes consoles and yet he is always seen playing on a Xbox controller.  

    Whether on PC or console a controller is always better than mouse and keyboard for games that involve flight. I don't see how that has any bearing on ones opinions of PC's and consoles.

  • TheYear1500TheYear1500 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    Originally posted by Kabaal
    Originally posted by TheYear1500

     

    I had a lot of fun playing privateer, and some with wing commander.  I find it funny that CR bashes consoles and yet he is always seen playing on a Xbox controller.  

    Whether on PC or console a controller is always better than mouse and keyboard for games that involve flight. I don't see how that has any bearing on ones opinions of PC's and consoles.

    You clearly have never seen CR play, he is horrible.  Actually Mouse and keyboard have very clear advantages in AC and SC because the focus is on aim and not flight.  

  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    Originally posted by Bascola
    Originally posted by wucks

    And to go back to your previous point - if not the player base who exactly do you think should be providing money to make the game assets in an entirely crowd funded game?

    Oh sure, the community should fund it but a Spaceship Model does not cost that much to design. They sell them for up to $1000 a pop and seeing as hundreds buy them i think it's a little overpriced, so what is done with the rest? 

    Fancy commercials and Marketing of cause nothing to do with game assets! Any single of those Commercials has cost them a lot more than designing the spaceship. High quality cutscenes are still the most time and cost intensive

    Well yesterday, I loaded the Retaliator Modell (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/ships/aegis-retaliator/Retaliator) in my testproject and it had 747000 faces ... basically thats the amount of faces of a whole village in ESO (including NPCs).

    I still wonder how they will animate/physic this in LOD0. And yes it is still a problem with DX12/Mantle cause you have to take all other things in account like:

    - we need a fancy skybox with planets, planetary rings, nebulas, effects and .. well fancy stuff.

    - we we have different physics materials like glass cockpits (oh evil glass leads to visible char models and interior) 

    - Things flying around in the Universe (asteroids, dead spacemen, etc)

    - we have a speed of 500m/s on the assets that leads to a max delta of 1000m/s which is quite alot if you don't have a <1ms Ping to the server - 30ms Ping leads to an at least 33,3m difference at 1000m/s this is not calculating UDP Protocol stuff in it (UDP guesses a lot!) - despite the Lag your Computer has with about 1million moving vertices and human reaction time

    - now shoot something and you have even more things that have to be calculated and spread over the network.

    - on top of that moving characters in the ships - at least their position have to be networked

    Sure they can LOD it all down and they will - but most of the above problems will still exist.

    As long we don't have google Fiber all over the world and GPU power equal to quad 980 I don't see this happen.

     

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Originally posted by Erillion
    Originally posted by Kefo

    ahh so back to claiming you can see into the future :P

    Sure CR can keep his promise and completely close down the cash shop except for some small minor things and I truly hope he does but I will ask again do you really think he will cut the head off his cash cow?

    Thats the (often !) officially stated position and I personally think they will not change this. 

    Answer to your question about the "cash cow": yes.  CIG has plenty of other options to generate additional income e.g. via additional mission packs and military and non-military solo story campaigns.

     

    Have fun

    Sure he has other options to make money but I doubt it will equal the money he can bring in through ship sales and so I think he will continue to sell them after release

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722
    Originally posted by Erillion
    Originally posted by Dakeru
    Just because you want to to whiteknight your beloved company again doesn't make it true when you call consoles mediocre.


     

     

    Console tech IS mediocre compared to modern PC tech. That is a verifiable fact.

     

    That is your problem right there. Stop comparing apples and oranges. In the console environment the current generation is top notch. It is beyond stupid when media outlets compare a $400 hardware that does not get upgrades with a $1000+ modern computer that not only does everything you can imagine, it also has upgrades, rendering it even more expensive. And it is just laughable when PC elitists use the media nonsense statements to support the comparison. Of course if you put them side by side PC hardware will wipe the floor with a console, they are not meant to be compared. But hey, journalists have to eat so doing dumb stuff like comparing PC with console attracts eyeballs.

     

    EDIT: by the way, what does PC vs Console have to do with Star Citizen? im sure the game would run fine on both.





  • OmnifishOmnifish Member Posts: 616
    Originally posted by Incomparable

    Consoles create a plateau for game developers. This plateau lasts for around 8 years. And some PC games are dragged down to this plateau level.

    part of advancement is the inherent reward and when reaching limits of current tech trying to break them with new tech/programming. Consoles slow down the need for advancement in PC technology by creating plateaus and limits development to mostly programming.

    in their statement, I am reading is as that they will use the most of current tech, and that consoles will not be part of their market as in compromises are being made. This could also mean the min specs for SC is that better of the current gen console which is bad tech anyways.

     

    Ummm that's not been true ever, on both counts.

    PCs pretty much never slow down in terms of advancement. There's new components released every month that either adds something, 'more', or is a repackage of something else at a lower price. Whether consoles are available or not that would still be the case because it's a open platform

    And regardless, whether such a thing as consoles exists or not, PC games would not suddenly make quantum leaps in terms of design because frankly it'd take too long as a budget concern to address the key areas needed in design, i.e. programming and A.I. Graphics are a simpler form to upgrade, and the P.C. will have an advantage there, but only to the few who can afford it.

    That video is a joke that lacks irony, and if some can't understand what's ironic about CIG joking about, 'greed', well then I'll bow out here ;)

    This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,328
    Originally posted by rojoArcueid

    EDIT: by the way, what does PC vs Console have to do with Star Citizen? im sure the game would run fine on both.

    No it won't.

    Chris Roberts official statement:

    “Star Citizen IS a PC game. It will NEVER be dumbed down for a lesser platform. We will NOT limit the input options or supported peripherals to the lowest common denominator. We will NOT pass on features and technology just because they will only run on some hardware configurations.”

    “I LOVE the PC as a platform because it is open, is always moving forward, with new powerful components (usually at cheaper prices) becoming available to gamers available every year. A $3,000 high end PC gaming rig of today wipes the floor of dedicated graphics supercomputers costing over $1M 10 years ago. People were amazed at being able to get Giga flops of performance. Now we can obtain over 5 TERA flops on a single PCI-E GPU!!! The PC platform is great because it isn’t static. It doesn’t have rules or some controlling entity that decides what will and won’t be in the eco system. If a cool new disruptive technology like the Oculus Rift comes along it can have a chance to gain traction and become the next big thing. Because of this Star Citizen will always be primarily a PC game and will embrace the best and newest tech.”

     

    Have fun

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,328

    >>>> Console players just aren't the type of people who would shell out the kind of money CIG now expect <<<<

     

    Console players do NOT pay around 50 bucks for their games ?

     

    Have fun

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