Actually, old games weren't about acquiring bling. People couldn't inspect your gear or anything, so standing around in rare gear meant nothing as nobody knew what your were wearing was rare.
Yeah like in UO.. oh wait... I guess you mean AC... no, not that. Hmmm... Second Life? There? Planet Entropia? Puzzle Pirates? Odd...
Other than DAoC and maybe one or two others, it was commonplace in NA/EU games. It was FFXI (2003) that kicked up a shitstorn when their version, /check, would send a message to the player saying something like "Suchnsuch is examining you!" The eastern gamers were extremely bothered by that one, considering it both rude ad invasive.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually, old games weren't about acquiring bling. People couldn't inspect your gear or anything, so standing around in rare gear meant nothing as nobody knew what your were wearing was rare.
Well, can't speak for every game, because I haven't played every game, but EQ was definitely about 'bling'.
Running a high-end guild requires a significant amount of social, communication, management and planning skill.
In fact, professors have explained how trinity MMO and guild management makes those MMO players, better to hire than someone with a harvard degree.
IN FACT, many raid leaders from the high-end EQ guilds, are incredibly smart people. The idea that they are basement dwellers, only comes from people who have never raided high-end EQ. They are incredibly talented people.
You do not lead 100 people to the top of a game, if you're an idiot.
Our EQ guild is run like a business. We have a recruiting officer, we have a DKP officer, we have class leaders, we have officers, we have raid leaders, we have someone managing our site, we have people who powerlevel, we have someone who does translations, we have a second guild for upcoming players, etc.
Our officers and raid leader (I am a class leader, not an officer), are people with extensive experience in leading groups of people, often from their job / experience.
I always wondered why MMORPGs, both current generation and the old generation, require so little of their player base in terms of skill. Why do we have an incredibly simplistic combat which is just mashing a few buttons and repeating the same actions over and over again.
It seems that the only thing that people get rewarded for in MMORPGs is time. MMORPGs reward people for "working hard". But why do you need to "work hard"? Every other single genre rewards their players for performing well. Some genres also have a progression system but they don't throw out the skill element out of the window. Even in real life, "working hard" is good but "working smart" is way better and much more valued.
In racers I get rewarded and win by improving my driving skills. You can argue that by investing more time, you get better and that is true. But the sense of accomplishment you get from beating a challenge or someone purely by you getting better is completely different to I own you because I spent more time sitting on my ass grinding.
Now that the novelty of MMORPGs is gone for the vast majority of players, the shallowness and lack of depth behind MMORPG's combat and activities is becoming so glaring it's ridiculous. I can understand why games like EQ had a simplistic tab based combat and why the game promoted time investment. You can argue that the technology back then wasn't as advanced. But why the hell are we getting MMORPGs with even more simplistic and shallow combat systems which require even less skill than games which had to work with what was available back in the 90s. Surely they should have more advanced combat systems and activities to challenge players to improve not just "grind it out" and "invest time" and "work hard".
So the magic and novelty is long gone, having simplistic and shallow mechanics/combat makes MMORPGs look ancient and that's very sad.
Traditionally it's because of the entire premise of RPGs being all about your character and their skills, not the player's skills. There is only a minor influence on the outcome of battles based on the player's ability to do things, it all comes down to whether or not your character is strong enough.
There have however been games which have broken away from this norm and incorporated twitch and / or action combat which tends to put things more in the hands of the player rather than just automatically winning because you meet X stat requirements.
I always wondered why MMORPGs, both current generation and the old generation, require so little of their player base in terms of skill.
In racers I get rewarded and win by improving my driving skills.
Because a lot of older MMORPGs were about knowledge, not physical skills. You are questioning them for not testing the same ability sets as something like a racing game, and that isn't fair or right.
These games were RPGs in the sense that your character attributes within the game were more important than the players reflexes or aim, and this is valid. Not every game has to test the same player attributes.
It is like comparing chess to soccer in a lot of ways, and then criticising chess for not requiring 'skills'.
The only skills a lot of older MMORPGs really required were social skills, which explains why so many were so bad at connecting with them.
Running a high-end guild requires a significant amount of social, communication, management and planning skill.
In fact, professors have explained how trinity MMO and guild management makes those MMO players, better to hire than someone with a harvard degree.
IN FACT, many raid leaders from the high-end EQ guilds, are incredibly smart people. The idea that they are basement dwellers, only comes from people who have never raided high-end EQ. They are incredibly talented people.
You do not lead 100 people to the top of a game, if you're an idiot.
Our EQ guild is run like a business. We have a recruiting officer, we have a DKP officer, we have class leaders, we have officers, we have raid leaders, we have someone managing our site, we have people who powerlevel, we have someone who does translations, we have a second guild for upcoming players, etc.
Our officers and raid leader (I am a class leader, not an officer), are people with extensive experience in leading groups of people, often from their job / experience.
I once viewed an application where someone gave managing a guild as a skill that qualified the person as a project manager, we laughed our asses off since he was clearly socially inept (not to mention a perception of management that came straight from the 70's). That's not to say very clever people don't manage guilds, they can and do, but equally I know of top guilds that were managed by bullies in effect that had little people skills, or indeed technical ability, and in some cases plain obnoxious. They were however ruthless, and in a lot of raid environments that's all that is needed, because when it boils down to it, we are talking rote memorisation as a key characteristic of success in probably 95% of fights in a raiding centric game, not intellectual dexterity. The verbal whip is enough it seems.
As you know great leadership is not management its facilitation, and when do you see behavior that is focused on enabling rather than enforcing patterns of activity in raiding - not often, and that's because creative thinking is counter productive in a game focused on perfecting a consistent pattern of play fight after fight after fight.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
"Why are all mmorpgs designed to require no skill?"
They aren't.
Ywvm.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
there is such thing as smart gameplay in many games it is the added simpleton xp that some games add in that should not.
as to working hard,you are never smart enough the first time or many so you have to work hard.quite often a job requires 90% hard work,so there is no way around it.
the reason we are getting a lot of cheap combat designs is very simple.less code,less effort,less ideas,less testing/balancing,less ai all adds up to saving tons of money.the same things happen with auto map generation it saves tons of cost and time.
gamer's should be knowledgeable by now to spot all the cheap corner cutting.lack od DIFFERENT models,those cheap 2-3 factionpvp games,1 starting town or area,crtoony graphics are there for only one reason,lower poly lower effort and cost.
i have to once again point at one the biggest CON jobs of the century.....h1z1.released FOR SALE ,1 map,1 player model,3 vehicles none with splash effects through water,a simple set of handgun,rifle,assault rifle and bow.no add ons and only one playable mode BR,whereby most of the game assets are removed like zombies,the real purposeof the game.most of the assets are repeated all over the 1 map.
it has been idk 6 mnths at least since a playable game and only 1 map.ONE person could make at least 2 maps by now,so tells you how little assests are put into the game.even the only skill factor which is point n aim is more often random spray fire with loads of bunny hopping,so yes game development has hit an all time LOW .
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
getting better and slaying the dragon? We've come a long way down from that.
Now it's "nerf the dragon. he killed me".
And who cares? Since they kill the dragon in "Looking For Raid", while you kill it in "Mythic" mode, with the gear you get being so much better it's not even funny to compare, like a family truck vs a sports car.
I don't think it matters what your driving if everyone is going to the same car wash instance.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Role Playing Games aren't about YOU as a player they are about the character you are building. MMORPGs reward "Game Savvy" and social skills as well as time. Other games , like driving games, reward learning the interface and the physics of the game ..."Game Savvy". Being good at a driving game doesn't make you a better driver, being good at an FPS doesn't make you a good soldier it makes you better at that game (and games with similar interfaces and physics).
The likely reason is lag period which effects player skill greatly. It shaped the genre and likely still does.
That said some player skill is involved. The genre is RPG and supposed to be about your characters ability more so than your ability. Though I wouldn't mind a Action Adventure type game. But even many single player RPG's its about the character and your strategy with the character vs. pure action skill.
This pretty much would sum it up. I know most people will spend pages trying to define what the word skill means. But, there is too much involved with most target click MMO's. Dealing with cheaters, dealing with lag (hardware or internet connection issues). Unless you just continuously update your computer it always seems like somewhere along the line an update messes up your FPS and you have to learn to live with it or upgrade the computer.
Seems like if you go with the upgrade the computer option, then there is some kind of fix. Always sucks... I spend more time on updating the computer before and while I play these type of games than I do actually playing them.
15 years ago, if you want to play a MMORPG, you have no choice... if you want to experience all the content including high end raiding, your real life will be greatly affected.
Nowadays, you can experience all the content you pay for at different difficulty levels depending on the time your able to invest in the game.
Now, the "hardcore nerds" playing games like a second job and who enjoyed standing on the city mailbox in full epics to impress the noobs may not like that change, but for everyone else, aka the vast majority, it's the best thing that ever happened to the genre. And guess what... you can still impress noobs... with your full mythic level raid gear, while the casuals are happy with LFR or normal gear.
Today : best of both worlds.
Yesterday: elitist nonsense that won't come back in a mainstream MMO, ever.
Originally posted by Quizzical
Because players who have no skill want to win, too.
But it's far from being the case that all MMORPGs require no skill. Many MMORPGs require a little bit of skill, but not a lot. This is most noticeable when pugging with people who lack that little bit of skill.
And a handful of MMORPGs require a lot of skill. The best examples I'm aware of are Puzzle Pirates and Spiral Knights, not coincidentally, both made by Three Rings.
What you call "skill" was mostly a matter of "time".
But that's the whole point of this topic. MMORPGs have no moved from that concept that "time" should be rewarded. Current generation MMORPGs take a lot less time to play (which is good) but they still require no skill.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by Chrisbox Content that requires skill only gets tackled by a small percentage of the player base because incapable players and players with little time take up the majority of said playerbase. If a game wants to survive financially then appealing to all types of players is the route to go.
But why is that the case? So many other genres require a lot from their players and the only way to overcome challenges there is to improve your skill at playing. Is it that MMO players don't want to do anything more than mindless grind while facerollnig their keyboard?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
First, not "all" MMORPGs are like that. Both in PvP and PvE, a players skill was very obvious in both Vanguard and EQ. While melee didn't have many abilities in EQ, it was all about anticipating your opponents movement, staying in range, and jousting; not unlike knife fighting in an FPS game. When it came to casters, someone who simply spammed a key would be annihilated. In Vanguard especially, I could do things that better geared players would not even think to attempt. While the game was eventually turned into a themepark by SOE (that is their specialty isnt it?) and lacked in many ways, the classes had a great deal of depth and an arsenal of abilities (too many afaic - I'd use 20-30 unique abilities in 1 fight).
MMORPGs don't have to be simple, but they've moved to console combat because its something any player can pick up on quickly and it fits with the casual paradigm that is currently the standard. That is the real problem here. It always boils down to convenience versus depth. In this case, everyone is currently designing for convenience.
I always wondered why MMORPGs, both current generation and the old generation, require so little of their player base in terms of skill. Why do we have an incredibly simplistic combat which is just mashing a few buttons and repeating the same actions over and over again.
It seems that the only thing that people get rewarded for in MMORPGs is time. MMORPGs reward people for "working hard". But why do you need to "work hard"? Every other single genre rewards their players for performing well. Some genres also have a progression system but they don't throw out the skill element out of the window. Even in real life, "working hard" is good but "working smart" is way better and much more valued.
In racers I get rewarded and win by improving my driving skills. You can argue that by investing more time, you get better and that is true. But the sense of accomplishment you get from beating a challenge or someone purely by you getting better is completely different to I own you because I spent more time sitting on my ass grinding.
But didn't you beat that person in the racer because you'd spent more time getting better than them? Didn't you essentially grind the same races over and over again to get better? How is that any different?
And playing smart does pay off in MMOs. If you, your group, your guild, whatever works out a quicker/easier way to complete encounter X how is that not "playing smart"? Kiting was something the EQ devs never thought of. Players "played smart" and created it as a tactic. Then a smart player reversed it to create fear kiting. Both examples of "playing smart". Now they're common tactics. Doesn't make them any less smart.
Unless you have a natural talent towards a certain type of game then improvement does come with time (assuming that you are willing and able to actually learn). How do musicians improve? They practice their instrument (or "grind" their scales, forms, whatever). Same with sportsmen. Same with anything. Same with some classes in MMOs. I suck to completely suck at FPS games. Now I've played them for a while I just mostly suck.
Try playing a game with the Old Trinity (tank, heals, crowd control) rather than the New Trinity (tank, heals, DPS) with a crowd controller with no skill. You will struggle until that person gains the necessary skills. Same with tanks and heals.
I guess what I'm saying is that DPS is the lowest skill archetype and now that that has replaced crowd control in the trinity I can see how someone might the skill has gone from MMOs. But, now that MMOs have opened up to mass market they can't really set the skill bar for entry too high. They're all chasing the massive numbers of WoW and that can't happen if the game requires too much skill. It would turn too many players away (the (very) young, the working, those with family or any other of a million reasons why they don't have the time to learn a new skill set before they can start actually enjoying the game). The majority of players today want instant gratification and aren'ty used to failing. Therefore: No Skill Required becomes the norm.
I think Wildstar would like to have a word with the OP. They featured some of the most difficult raiding in the history of MMOs... and went down in flames. People say they want hard content until someone actually offers hard content.
Well, that or they bitch about how it's not the right type of hard content like those nerds that feel leveling should be extremely difficult but don't care about how hard endgame is. For them if your leveling is easy then the whole game is a joke and you're contributing to the degeneration of society by letting "unworthy" people reach max level.
I always wondered why MMORPGs, both current generation and the old generation, require so little of their player base in terms of skill. Why do we have an incredibly simplistic combat which is just mashing a few buttons and repeating the same actions over and over again.
It seems that the only thing that people get rewarded for in MMORPGs is time. MMORPGs reward people for "working hard". But why do you need to "work hard"? Every other single genre rewards their players for performing well. Some genres also have a progression system but they don't throw out the skill element out of the window. Even in real life, "working hard" is good but "working smart" is way better and much more valued.
In racers I get rewarded and win by improving my driving skills. You can argue that by investing more time, you get better and that is true. But the sense of accomplishment you get from beating a challenge or someone purely by you getting better is completely different to I own you because I spent more time sitting on my ass grinding.
Now that the novelty of MMORPGs is gone for the vast majority of players, the shallowness and lack of depth behind MMORPG's combat and activities is becoming so glaring it's ridiculous. I can understand why games like EQ had a simplistic tab based combat and why the game promoted time investment. You can argue that the technology back then wasn't as advanced. But why the hell are we getting MMORPGs with even more simplistic and shallow combat systems which require even less skill than games which had to work with what was available back in the 90s. Surely they should have more advanced combat systems and activities to challenge players to improve not just "grind it out" and "invest time" and "work hard".
So the magic and novelty is long gone, having simplistic and shallow mechanics/combat makes MMORPGs look ancient and that's very sad.
Dont you just love when people like the OP make a blanket statement without knowing all of the facts? Are all the MMO's easy? No. But at the same time they are not difficult. To say that they are all easy is both foolish and naive, because it shows that you have no clue to what your talking about. No sane person would make such a blanket statement without knowing all the facts. Its like saying because the KKK is a group of caucasian's that are racist makes all caucasian's racist.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Originally posted by Chrisbox Content that requires skill only gets tackled by a small percentage of the player base because incapable players and players with little time take up the majority of said playerbase. If a game wants to survive financially then appealing to all types of players is the route to go.
But why is that the case? So many other genres require a lot from their players and the only way to overcome challenges there is to improve your skill at playing.
Are really asserting that there is no difference in a day one player in a game like FFXIV and an end game vet? Because that would be ridiculous.
Why are you ignoring the people that are telling you that it's stupid to compare MMORPGs to other genres in this. It's apples and oranges.
Old school MMORPGs required knowledge over skill. Maybe it could be argued that newer games don't so much, but I look at something like FFXIV in terms of pure knowledge required and see otherwise.
Again, what you are doing is comparing chess to soccer and then coming to the conclusion that chess is bad. Different styles of game require different disciplines. This is a good thing.
Text based games are where the challenge is at. Some are plagued by automation and cure bots but Avalon (www.avalon-rpg.com) is the longest running online RPG in history and takes anti-automation to heart. I've taken great pleasure in wrecking people's automatic fighting systems by typing speed and macros alone.
In my eight years of playing I've never experienced a game world like it. Challenge is not the word. It has over 2000 unique abilities in 9 professions (classes), most of which have undocumented secondary effects which adds another layer to the complexity since only experimentation and discovery can reveal things which may give you an advantage.
If PVP isn't your thing but still want a challenge, Avalon's warfare conquest system is probably the most advanced of any game in the world: legions, troops, soldiers, enlisting, fortifications, siegetowers, trenches, tunnels, oil-cauldrons, minefields, mortar bombing and archery, dispatches, command orders and carrier pigeons, runners and scouts. A couple of years ago, the city of Springdale was wiped from the map after Thakria invaded and conquered.
Worth a try if other games are too easy. Hit up Agarwain or Zio in game for help.
I always wondered why MMORPGs, both current generation and the old generation, require so little of their player base in terms of skill. Why do we have an incredibly simplistic combat which is just mashing a few buttons and repeating the same actions over and over again.
If no skill is required, why do so many people complain about unskilled players in pugs?
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Hand eye co-ordination in games is rather a primitive skill to poses. Personally I'd rather challenge my brain than how fast I can use my keyboard/mouse.
There are scores of games that do exactly that.
They are not MMO's. Everything from chess (on or offline), to turn based strategy, to playing PnP RPG's. All will challenge you mentally.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Define skill? You're ability to mash buttons faster than your opponent? Your ability to mimic a pre-choreographed instance encounter? Your ability to acquire indecent profits on the AH?
When the final boss requires you to do differential calculus to complete an encounter, you can mention the word *skill* in the same sentence as a video game... until then, get over yourself.
Define skill? You're ability to mash buttons faster than your opponent? Your ability to mimic a pre-choreographed instance encounter? Your ability to acquire indecent profits on the AH?
When the final boss requires you to do differential calculus to complete an encounter, you can mention the word *skill* in the same sentence as a video game... until then, get over yourself.
I always wondered why MMORPGs, both current generation and the old generation, require so little of their player base in terms of skill. Why do we have an incredibly simplistic combat which is just mashing a few buttons and repeating the same actions over and over again.
It seems that the only thing that people get rewarded for in MMORPGs is time. MMORPGs reward people for "working hard". But why do you need to "work hard"? Every other single genre rewards their players for performing well. Some genres also have a progression system but they don't throw out the skill element out of the window. Even in real life, "working hard" is good but "working smart" is way better and much more valued.
In racers I get rewarded and win by improving my driving skills. You can argue that by investing more time, you get better and that is true. But the sense of accomplishment you get from beating a challenge or someone purely by you getting better is completely different to I own you because I spent more time sitting on my ass grinding.
Now that the novelty of MMORPGs is gone for the vast majority of players, the shallowness and lack of depth behind MMORPG's combat and activities is becoming so glaring it's ridiculous. I can understand why games like EQ had a simplistic tab based combat and why the game promoted time investment. You can argue that the technology back then wasn't as advanced. But why the hell are we getting MMORPGs with even more simplistic and shallow combat systems which require even less skill than games which had to work with what was available back in the 90s. Surely they should have more advanced combat systems and activities to challenge players to improve not just "grind it out" and "invest time" and "work hard".
So the magic and novelty is long gone, having simplistic and shallow mechanics/combat makes MMORPGs look ancient and that's very sad
Not sure if you've tried Darkfall, but It has some of the most enjoyable PVE that I've experience in years. The original is best, but the second iteration isn't terrible. The only thing is you'll have to most likely deal with other players trying to kil you while you're out there killing NPCs
Comments
Yeah like in UO.. oh wait... I guess you mean AC... no, not that. Hmmm... Second Life? There? Planet Entropia? Puzzle Pirates? Odd...
Other than DAoC and maybe one or two others, it was commonplace in NA/EU games. It was FFXI (2003) that kicked up a shitstorn when their version, /check, would send a message to the player saying something like "Suchnsuch is examining you!" The eastern gamers were extremely bothered by that one, considering it both rude ad invasive.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well, can't speak for every game, because I haven't played every game, but EQ was definitely about 'bling'.
And, yes, you could inspect.
Running a high-end guild requires a significant amount of social, communication, management and planning skill.
In fact, professors have explained how trinity MMO and guild management makes those MMO players, better to hire than someone with a harvard degree.
IN FACT, many raid leaders from the high-end EQ guilds, are incredibly smart people. The idea that they are basement dwellers, only comes from people who have never raided high-end EQ. They are incredibly talented people.
You do not lead 100 people to the top of a game, if you're an idiot.
Our EQ guild is run like a business. We have a recruiting officer, we have a DKP officer, we have class leaders, we have officers, we have raid leaders, we have someone managing our site, we have people who powerlevel, we have someone who does translations, we have a second guild for upcoming players, etc.
Our officers and raid leader (I am a class leader, not an officer), are people with extensive experience in leading groups of people, often from their job / experience.
Traditionally it's because of the entire premise of RPGs being all about your character and their skills, not the player's skills. There is only a minor influence on the outcome of battles based on the player's ability to do things, it all comes down to whether or not your character is strong enough.
There have however been games which have broken away from this norm and incorporated twitch and / or action combat which tends to put things more in the hands of the player rather than just automatically winning because you meet X stat requirements.
Because a lot of older MMORPGs were about knowledge, not physical skills. You are questioning them for not testing the same ability sets as something like a racing game, and that isn't fair or right.
These games were RPGs in the sense that your character attributes within the game were more important than the players reflexes or aim, and this is valid. Not every game has to test the same player attributes.
It is like comparing chess to soccer in a lot of ways, and then criticising chess for not requiring 'skills'.
The only skills a lot of older MMORPGs really required were social skills, which explains why so many were so bad at connecting with them.
I once viewed an application where someone gave managing a guild as a skill that qualified the person as a project manager, we laughed our asses off since he was clearly socially inept (not to mention a perception of management that came straight from the 70's). That's not to say very clever people don't manage guilds, they can and do, but equally I know of top guilds that were managed by bullies in effect that had little people skills, or indeed technical ability, and in some cases plain obnoxious. They were however ruthless, and in a lot of raid environments that's all that is needed, because when it boils down to it, we are talking rote memorisation as a key characteristic of success in probably 95% of fights in a raiding centric game, not intellectual dexterity. The verbal whip is enough it seems.
As you know great leadership is not management its facilitation, and when do you see behavior that is focused on enabling rather than enforcing patterns of activity in raiding - not often, and that's because creative thinking is counter productive in a game focused on perfecting a consistent pattern of play fight after fight after fight.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
They aren't.
Ywvm.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
there is such thing as smart gameplay in many games it is the added simpleton xp that some games add in that should not.
as to working hard,you are never smart enough the first time or many so you have to work hard.quite often a job requires 90% hard work,so there is no way around it.
the reason we are getting a lot of cheap combat designs is very simple.less code,less effort,less ideas,less testing/balancing,less ai all adds up to saving tons of money.the same things happen with auto map generation it saves tons of cost and time.
gamer's should be knowledgeable by now to spot all the cheap corner cutting.lack od DIFFERENT models,those cheap 2-3 factionpvp games,1 starting town or area,crtoony graphics are there for only one reason,lower poly lower effort and cost.
i have to once again point at one the biggest CON jobs of the century.....h1z1.released FOR SALE ,1 map,1 player model,3 vehicles none with splash effects through water,a simple set of handgun,rifle,assault rifle and bow.no add ons and only one playable mode BR,whereby most of the game assets are removed like zombies,the real purposeof the game.most of the assets are repeated all over the 1 map.
it has been idk 6 mnths at least since a playable game and only 1 map.ONE person could make at least 2 maps by now,so tells you how little assests are put into the game.even the only skill factor which is point n aim is more often random spray fire with loads of bunny hopping,so yes game development has hit an all time LOW .
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I don't think it matters what your driving if everyone is going to the same car wash instance.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Role Playing Games aren't about YOU as a player they are about the character you are building. MMORPGs reward "Game Savvy" and social skills as well as time. Other games , like driving games, reward learning the interface and the physics of the game ..."Game Savvy". Being good at a driving game doesn't make you a better driver, being good at an FPS doesn't make you a good soldier it makes you better at that game (and games with similar interfaces and physics).
This pretty much would sum it up. I know most people will spend pages trying to define what the word skill means. But, there is too much involved with most target click MMO's. Dealing with cheaters, dealing with lag (hardware or internet connection issues). Unless you just continuously update your computer it always seems like somewhere along the line an update messes up your FPS and you have to learn to live with it or upgrade the computer.
Seems like if you go with the upgrade the computer option, then there is some kind of fix. Always sucks... I spend more time on updating the computer before and while I play these type of games than I do actually playing them.
But that's the whole point of this topic. MMORPGs have no moved from that concept that "time" should be rewarded. Current generation MMORPGs take a lot less time to play (which is good) but they still require no skill.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
But why is that the case? So many other genres require a lot from their players and the only way to overcome challenges there is to improve your skill at playing. Is it that MMO players don't want to do anything more than mindless grind while facerollnig their keyboard?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
First, not "all" MMORPGs are like that. Both in PvP and PvE, a players skill was very obvious in both Vanguard and EQ. While melee didn't have many abilities in EQ, it was all about anticipating your opponents movement, staying in range, and jousting; not unlike knife fighting in an FPS game. When it came to casters, someone who simply spammed a key would be annihilated. In Vanguard especially, I could do things that better geared players would not even think to attempt. While the game was eventually turned into a themepark by SOE (that is their specialty isnt it?) and lacked in many ways, the classes had a great deal of depth and an arsenal of abilities (too many afaic - I'd use 20-30 unique abilities in 1 fight).
MMORPGs don't have to be simple, but they've moved to console combat because its something any player can pick up on quickly and it fits with the casual paradigm that is currently the standard. That is the real problem here. It always boils down to convenience versus depth. In this case, everyone is currently designing for convenience.
But didn't you beat that person in the racer because you'd spent more time getting better than them? Didn't you essentially grind the same races over and over again to get better? How is that any different?
And playing smart does pay off in MMOs. If you, your group, your guild, whatever works out a quicker/easier way to complete encounter X how is that not "playing smart"? Kiting was something the EQ devs never thought of. Players "played smart" and created it as a tactic. Then a smart player reversed it to create fear kiting. Both examples of "playing smart". Now they're common tactics. Doesn't make them any less smart.
Unless you have a natural talent towards a certain type of game then improvement does come with time (assuming that you are willing and able to actually learn). How do musicians improve? They practice their instrument (or "grind" their scales, forms, whatever). Same with sportsmen. Same with anything. Same with some classes in MMOs. I suck to completely suck at FPS games. Now I've played them for a while I just mostly suck.
Try playing a game with the Old Trinity (tank, heals, crowd control) rather than the New Trinity (tank, heals, DPS) with a crowd controller with no skill. You will struggle until that person gains the necessary skills. Same with tanks and heals.
I guess what I'm saying is that DPS is the lowest skill archetype and now that that has replaced crowd control in the trinity I can see how someone might the skill has gone from MMOs. But, now that MMOs have opened up to mass market they can't really set the skill bar for entry too high. They're all chasing the massive numbers of WoW and that can't happen if the game requires too much skill. It would turn too many players away (the (very) young, the working, those with family or any other of a million reasons why they don't have the time to learn a new skill set before they can start actually enjoying the game). The majority of players today want instant gratification and aren'ty used to failing. Therefore: No Skill Required becomes the norm.
I think Wildstar would like to have a word with the OP. They featured some of the most difficult raiding in the history of MMOs... and went down in flames. People say they want hard content until someone actually offers hard content.
Well, that or they bitch about how it's not the right type of hard content like those nerds that feel leveling should be extremely difficult but don't care about how hard endgame is. For them if your leveling is easy then the whole game is a joke and you're contributing to the degeneration of society by letting "unworthy" people reach max level.
Dont you just love when people like the OP make a blanket statement without knowing all of the facts? Are all the MMO's easy? No. But at the same time they are not difficult. To say that they are all easy is both foolish and naive, because it shows that you have no clue to what your talking about. No sane person would make such a blanket statement without knowing all the facts. Its like saying because the KKK is a group of caucasian's that are racist makes all caucasian's racist.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Are really asserting that there is no difference in a day one player in a game like FFXIV and an end game vet? Because that would be ridiculous.
Why are you ignoring the people that are telling you that it's stupid to compare MMORPGs to other genres in this. It's apples and oranges.
Old school MMORPGs required knowledge over skill. Maybe it could be argued that newer games don't so much, but I look at something like FFXIV in terms of pure knowledge required and see otherwise.
Again, what you are doing is comparing chess to soccer and then coming to the conclusion that chess is bad. Different styles of game require different disciplines. This is a good thing.
Text based games are where the challenge is at. Some are plagued by automation and cure bots but Avalon (www.avalon-rpg.com) is the longest running online RPG in history and takes anti-automation to heart. I've taken great pleasure in wrecking people's automatic fighting systems by typing speed and macros alone.
In my eight years of playing I've never experienced a game world like it. Challenge is not the word. It has over 2000 unique abilities in 9 professions (classes), most of which have undocumented secondary effects which adds another layer to the complexity since only experimentation and discovery can reveal things which may give you an advantage.
If PVP isn't your thing but still want a challenge, Avalon's warfare conquest system is probably the most advanced of any game in the world: legions, troops, soldiers, enlisting, fortifications, siegetowers, trenches, tunnels, oil-cauldrons, minefields, mortar bombing and archery, dispatches, command orders and carrier pigeons, runners and scouts. A couple of years ago, the city of Springdale was wiped from the map after Thakria invaded and conquered.
Worth a try if other games are too easy. Hit up Agarwain or Zio in game for help.
8 years and counting addicted to
Avalon: The Legend Lives - the longest running online RPG in history
If no skill is required, why do so many people complain about unskilled players in pugs?
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
There are scores of games that do exactly that.
They are not MMO's. Everything from chess (on or offline), to turn based strategy, to playing PnP RPG's. All will challenge you mentally.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Define skill? You're ability to mash buttons faster than your opponent? Your ability to mimic a pre-choreographed instance encounter? Your ability to acquire indecent profits on the AH?
When the final boss requires you to do differential calculus to complete an encounter, you can mention the word *skill* in the same sentence as a video game... until then, get over yourself.
+1 for reality
Not sure if you've tried Darkfall, but It has some of the most enjoyable PVE that I've experience in years. The original is best, but the second iteration isn't terrible. The only thing is you'll have to most likely deal with other players trying to kil you while you're out there killing NPCs