I always wondered why MMORPGs, both current generation and the old generation, require so little of their player base in terms of skill. Why do we have an incredibly simplistic combat which is just mashing a few buttons and repeating the same actions over and over again.
It seems that the only thing that people get rewarded for in MMORPGs is time. MMORPGs reward people for "working hard". But why do you need to "work hard"? Every other single genre rewards their players for performing well. Some genres also have a progression system but they don't throw out the skill element out of the window. Even in real life, "working hard" is good but "working smart" is way better and much more valued.
In racers I get rewarded and win by improving my driving skills. You can argue that by investing more time, you get better and that is true. But the sense of accomplishment you get from beating a challenge or someone purely by you getting better is completely different to I own you because I spent more time sitting on my ass grinding.
Now that the novelty of MMORPGs is gone for the vast majority of players, the shallowness and lack of depth behind MMORPG's combat and activities is becoming so glaring it's ridiculous. I can understand why games like EQ had a simplistic tab based combat and why the game promoted time investment. You can argue that the technology back then wasn't as advanced. But why the hell are we getting MMORPGs with even more simplistic and shallow combat systems which require even less skill than games which had to work with what was available back in the 90s. Surely they should have more advanced combat systems and activities to challenge players to improve not just "grind it out" and "invest time" and "work hard".
So the magic and novelty is long gone, having simplistic and shallow mechanics/combat makes MMORPGs look ancient and that's very sad.
"You are not trying to learn Brazilian Jujitsu or something here"
In the game I play, finding one's feet in combat is very similar to learning a martial art. It is intuitive, rewards unrehearsed* reaction, and takes years to master. It follows simple Newtonian mechanics.
I've found just as much depth in dancing with an opponent in that game as in sparring with a partner in boxing, practicing randori in Jujutsu, or playing inside a roda while feeling the whoosh of an opponent's meia lua inches from one's face.
I grew up in Japan, practiced Karate from age 8, studied other martial arts in my 20s, and turned to a more peaceful life in my 30s.
Lovingly, there is just as much depth and skill required in Vendetta as in those arts.
*I'm using 'rehearsed' in a different way than 'practiced' here. Of course, the core of martial arts is practice. Intuitive knowledge carries through spontaneous action better than a scholarly lesson does. The whole purpose of practicing Kata isn't so that one uses those very same sequences of moves in a fight, but to arrive at an intuitive knowledge of what moves to use in any given spontaneous situation. The same sort of intuitive knowledge is required in a Vendetta furball; it's like thinking with your center of gravity.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
There are hard things in MMORPG's. But thank god the combat isn't one of them. I don't want to have to focus on my keyboard instead of watching the screen while in a fight.
But simplistic combat does NOT mean the game doesn't have hard elements. I started MMO's with Dark Age of Camelot which had very easy combat. But the coordination required when doing any group thing could be quit difficult and require each person to play their role with high expertise. Then you take that group mechanic into the RVR of the game and things got even more difficult where it took an in-depth knowledge of your class and how you worked with others to take on other player groups. Skill was needed.
Now I play Wildstar, have you? Here the combat involves a lot of defensive maneuvering and using the right skill at the right time. The raid bosses and even dungeon bosses require Coordination in the group and skill, lots of skill.
So if all your judging an MMO is by what is required for you to kill a single mob while soloing, then yes, its very simple. But then, that's just the tip of the iceberg in MMO's, isn't it?
I am in fact indeed judging MMOs by their solo experience. Because I need to go through hundreds of hours of soloing mobs to get the 0.5% that actually may require some actual involvement from me. How can something be the tip of the iceberg if it makes up 90% of the content in a game? If anything, high-end game raiding which requires a lot of cordination is the very tiny bit of teh iceberg to which you need to spend 100-200 hours to get to.
Originally posted by Pepeq
Define skill? You're ability to mash buttons faster than your opponent? Your ability to mimic a pre-choreographed instance encounter? Your ability to acquire indecent profits on the AH?
When the final boss requires you to do differential calculus to complete an encounter, you can mention the word *skill* in the same sentence as a video game... until then, get over yourself.
Skill - anything from gaining knowledge about game mechanics, to microing (or how good you are at controlling your character) to strategic thinking etc. A lot of other posts in this thread talk about skills and I how I assumed that would be some kind of hand eye co-ordination - FPS style.
Ability to mash buttons faster than your opponent - you can't do that in many skill intensive genres - RTS, FPS, DOTA, Turn based games, platformers, action games etc.
YOur last sentence is just retarded. Have you played a game like DOTA or Starcraft II? Can you really say those games require no skill? Really? There are no scripted events. You need strategic thinking, good microing, excellent understand of game mechanics, team work and being able to think quickly. Those games have such high skill ceiling that you can play them for 10-20 years and still be no where near good.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I always wondered why MMORPGs, both current generation and the old generation, require so little of their player base in terms of skill. Why do we have an incredibly simplistic combat which is just mashing a few buttons and repeating the same actions over and over again.
You are seeking out the wrong MMO's then. You couldn't be more wrong.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I would like to see more challenge in MMORPG's, but I can think of some reasons why we don't that much.
1. MMORPGs want as many players as possible, so they cater to the lowest common denominator. People that have no experience with playing computer games often start with playing MMORPGs.
2. MMORPGs are known to use a lot of repeating content in games. While it sounds fun on paper if fights take a lot of skill and mobs won't die easily, at the same time you maybe don't want that kind of challenge against never ending respawning trash mobs you have to wade through on your quests. This is a difference with most single player games that won't respawn mobs if you stay put in an area that you just cleared.
3. The tab based combat system. There is not much room in this combat system for playerskill based gameplay. Apart from some telegraphed big attacks to dodge (with big cooldown lol) that newer MMORPG's use, you are still absorbing home seeking attacks for the most part.
I always wondered why MMORPGs, both current generation and the old generation, require so little of their player base in terms of skill. Why do we have an incredibly simplistic combat which is just mashing a few buttons and repeating the same actions over and over again.
You are seeking out the wrong MMO's then. You couldn't be more wrong.
It is still mostly the case. In most MMORPG's the challenge is in the meta and preperation of combat. Finding great builds for your character. But for most players that is taken away too, because of guides that pop up very fast after release. Just look at TSW or EVE for example. How many of the players make their own TSW build or ship loadout? Most just look up guides.
But actual controlling your character , required situational awareness, tactical positioning, reflexes, those kind of skills are not much needed in MMORPG. PVP needs some, depending on the MMO, but PVE rarely.
Ofc herding a raid into success takes skill too, but that is just required by a few ppl per raid. The rest can watch television or check their phones during raiding. Also, thanks to the super mobmagnets called tanks.
I always wondered why MMORPGs, both current generation and the old generation, require so little of their player base in terms of skill. Why do we have an incredibly simplistic combat which is just mashing a few buttons and repeating the same actions over and over again.
You are seeking out the wrong MMO's then. You couldn't be more wrong.
It is still mostly the case. In most MMORPG's the challenge is in the meta and preperation of combat. Finding great builds for your character. But for most players that is taken away too, because of guides that pop up very fast after release. Just look at TSW or EVE for example. How many of the players make their own TSW build or ship loadout? Most just look up guides.
But actual controlling your character , required situational awareness, tactical positioning, reflexes, those kind of skills are not much needed in MMORPG. PVP needs some, depending on the MMO, but PVE rarely.
Ofc herding a raid into success takes skill too, but that is just required by a few ppl per raid. The rest can watch television or check their phones during raiding. Also, thanks to the super mobmagnets called tanks.
I'll repeat what Muke said. "You couldn't be more wrong"!!!!!
But actual controlling your character , required situational awareness, tactical positioning, reflexes, those kind of skills are not much needed in MMORPG. PVP needs some, depending on the MMO, but PVE rarely.
You never play Diablo 3 greater rifts? (And before anyone says it is not a MMORPG .. it is close enough to the very common instanced dungeon runs game mode of MMORPGs).
MMORPG's are not the only simplistic games. FPS games are simplistic, driving games are simplistic, RTS games are simplistic.
That's regarding PvE. PvP most genres are actually challenging depending on your opponent.
The only games I actually find challenging PvE wise are grand stratergy games and TBS.
Not all, vanilla FFXI was not simplistic by any stretch as you don't get free handouts for doing meaningless quests or for stepping on some new ground.
Unreal and Quake are not easy by any stretch,those fps's made many a pvpr quit and look for EASIER routes like rpg pvp or zerg pvp.
RTS/Moba games,yes those are simplistic just the cumbersome eye twitching to follow what is going on around you ,but no real cover,poor camera angles,no zaxis,not enough selection in type of weapon or type of damage makes them much weaker versions of pvp.
I feel that most devs have decided that a high majority of gamer's are poor gamer's,weak at utilizing any skill and would quit if they can't easily advance in levels.So devs tend to make leveling very easy just to keep players coming back for more and seems judging by Wow's success,it works for making money but to a REAL gamer looking for a constant challenge and some depth in game design,there is not much out there to choose from.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I do agree with OP, MMOs should reward things like timing better, having many skills is useless if you just can rotate them with very little impact on your performance.
Using the right skill at the right time really should be far more rewarding that it is, positioning and moving as you fight have become more common in games though.
As I see it a MMOs should be like chess: easy to learn but a long time to master. And tactics should be more important than gear or stats, particularly for PvP games. Today are most fights in PvP games decided when they start depending on the gear, levels and so on.
MMOs usually reward people who grind better than people who play good.
It would seem that some people think the only skills worthy of note are motor skills. Personally, I much prefer games that test my mental skills. Maybe the recent focus on motor skills in MMORPG gaming is a result of failed responses from the masses in regards to any kind of mental challenge.
The trend I've noticed is that the faster you speed up the gameplay, the less challenging the content becomes and the greater focus that goes into the combat mechanics themselves. I call it the "Whackamole Effect".
There's no skill difference between tab target and action, takented players are very very fast with precision target switching, talented action player are accurate with targeting. skill is with the player not the game.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
If there is no skill in MMO's why is it that so few people ever see the end game to completion? And I'm not just talking about raids either even small group content in games like EQ2 only a very small percentage of the population ever completes all of it.
Also why is it there is such a huge difference between really good players and average ones? it's true that gear does make a difference but I have known many players playing the same classes in the same gear doing the same fight where one player excels beyond his peers all else being equal.
Yea sure you can squeak by almost any MMO being average but that doesn't mean the ability to excel isn't there with good play, smart planning and yea skillful execution of your class. Maybe the issue is more one of the game not advertising exceptional players like they do in other genres? Or the places where skill is required are not as obvious as some other types of games? Either way it doesn't mean skill isn't there just that you are not taking the time or energy to go find it.
Because the RPG as a whole was more important than the 'G' part. Old MMO's were built to emulate table top RPG's and their turn based combat systems - rolling dice isn't much of a skill. Combat was really about who your character was and how they had been built and the story behind them. The idea of MMORPG's being more gamey is recent. But as MMO's simplified the character building aspect, the entire purpose of being an RPG started to get lost. The 'skill' used to be in building a character, but the interest changed that by allowing people to pop on to the internet, find the "best" build and everyone became the same. Then we got dps meters, so everyone played the same build, but now they also pressed the same buttons in specific orders.
So now people are looking to action/arcade style combat as "skill" because they've forgotten why MMO's existed in the first place. For people to play a virtual table top RPG.
This...in spades.
RPG's have always been more about your brain and your love for rich story than you twitch ability.
Now that the action genre community has bled in, we don't get much of that anymore. Thanks....
MMORPGs are designed to require no skill because its easy for the company to keep people grinding for new gear to get more powerful. If gear didnt matter and only player skill was the involved (unfortunately we dont have that), people would not have that fake feeling of accomplishing something when getting more powerful gear so they would not play the game (pffffft)
It is not the only reason but it is one of the reasons why gear grind is the norm instead of player skill.
Another reason is the catering to casual players who are the majority of payers and want a walk in the park when playing every game, including mmorpgs.
On a side note, If making enemies bullet spongy and 100% accurate (cough Destiny) is what companies consider difficult and requiring player skill nowadays, then ill gladly stay with casual faceroll easy mmos. When talking about player skill it goes hand in hand with difficulty. I want difficult gameplay but fair, like the Souls/Borne games. You can beat those naked if you know how to fight the tough encounters and the sense of accomplishment is way bigger than getting a random raid drop in an mmo (to me anyway).
TLDR: to add player skill that works well with difficult and smart AI, gear requirement needs to go away or become less relevant. And im OK with that.
What you call "skill" was mostly a matter of "time".
I would argue that having patience is a skill......no?
no.
And why would anyone need patience to play games? We are talking about entertainment, not real world important stuff.
I will be the first to admit .. when it comes to entertainment, patience has little value. It does not make things more fun .. at least not for me.
Well that might be so but I wasn't really talking that you need patience to have fun now did I.
No, you just said something to say something. It had no relevance just like your last comment. You shouldn't need patience in order to enjoy yourself in a game. This isn't 1999 and genre has evolved past me grind 200 mobs and sitting for 5 minutes waiting to regenerate health.
There is also a distinct difference between time spent in game in order to progress and having patience.
2009: The Chronicles of Spellborn - A very skill-intensive MMO, taken over after four months and ultimately closed down soon after.
2014: Wildstar - Another difficult MMO, with the world first DS40 clear coming seven months after release. It is struggling after one year, and will be free-to-play in August.
Personally, I really wish skill-based MMOs were economically feasible. From now on, it seems we have to learn to live with "skill hybrid" gaming.
Comments
Never played the Secret World have you?
Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT
Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.
Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games
Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery
"You are not trying to learn Brazilian Jujitsu or something here"
In the game I play, finding one's feet in combat is very similar to learning a martial art. It is intuitive, rewards unrehearsed* reaction, and takes years to master. It follows simple Newtonian mechanics.
I've found just as much depth in dancing with an opponent in that game as in sparring with a partner in boxing, practicing randori in Jujutsu, or playing inside a roda while feeling the whoosh of an opponent's meia lua inches from one's face.
I grew up in Japan, practiced Karate from age 8, studied other martial arts in my 20s, and turned to a more peaceful life in my 30s.
Lovingly, there is just as much depth and skill required in Vendetta as in those arts.
*I'm using 'rehearsed' in a different way than 'practiced' here. Of course, the core of martial arts is practice. Intuitive knowledge carries through spontaneous action better than a scholarly lesson does. The whole purpose of practicing Kata isn't so that one uses those very same sequences of moves in a fight, but to arrive at an intuitive knowledge of what moves to use in any given spontaneous situation. The same sort of intuitive knowledge is required in a Vendetta furball; it's like thinking with your center of gravity.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Skill - anything from gaining knowledge about game mechanics, to microing (or how good you are at controlling your character) to strategic thinking etc. A lot of other posts in this thread talk about skills and I how I assumed that would be some kind of hand eye co-ordination - FPS style.
Ability to mash buttons faster than your opponent - you can't do that in many skill intensive genres - RTS, FPS, DOTA, Turn based games, platformers, action games etc.
YOur last sentence is just retarded. Have you played a game like DOTA or Starcraft II? Can you really say those games require no skill? Really? There are no scripted events. You need strategic thinking, good microing, excellent understand of game mechanics, team work and being able to think quickly. Those games have such high skill ceiling that you can play them for 10-20 years and still be no where near good.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
You are seeking out the wrong MMO's then. You couldn't be more wrong.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I would like to see more challenge in MMORPG's, but I can think of some reasons why we don't that much.
1. MMORPGs want as many players as possible, so they cater to the lowest common denominator. People that have no experience with playing computer games often start with playing MMORPGs.
2. MMORPGs are known to use a lot of repeating content in games. While it sounds fun on paper if fights take a lot of skill and mobs won't die easily, at the same time you maybe don't want that kind of challenge against never ending respawning trash mobs you have to wade through on your quests. This is a difference with most single player games that won't respawn mobs if you stay put in an area that you just cleared.
3. The tab based combat system. There is not much room in this combat system for playerskill based gameplay. Apart from some telegraphed big attacks to dodge (with big cooldown lol) that newer MMORPG's use, you are still absorbing home seeking attacks for the most part.
It is still mostly the case. In most MMORPG's the challenge is in the meta and preperation of combat. Finding great builds for your character. But for most players that is taken away too, because of guides that pop up very fast after release. Just look at TSW or EVE for example. How many of the players make their own TSW build or ship loadout? Most just look up guides.
But actual controlling your character , required situational awareness, tactical positioning, reflexes, those kind of skills are not much needed in MMORPG. PVP needs some, depending on the MMO, but PVE rarely.
Ofc herding a raid into success takes skill too, but that is just required by a few ppl per raid. The rest can watch television or check their phones during raiding. Also, thanks to the super mobmagnets called tanks.
I'll repeat what Muke said. "You couldn't be more wrong"!!!!!
You never play Diablo 3 greater rifts? (And before anyone says it is not a MMORPG .. it is close enough to the very common instanced dungeon runs game mode of MMORPGs).
Not all, vanilla FFXI was not simplistic by any stretch as you don't get free handouts for doing meaningless quests or for stepping on some new ground.
Unreal and Quake are not easy by any stretch,those fps's made many a pvpr quit and look for EASIER routes like rpg pvp or zerg pvp.
RTS/Moba games,yes those are simplistic just the cumbersome eye twitching to follow what is going on around you ,but no real cover,poor camera angles,no zaxis,not enough selection in type of weapon or type of damage makes them much weaker versions of pvp.
I feel that most devs have decided that a high majority of gamer's are poor gamer's,weak at utilizing any skill and would quit if they can't easily advance in levels.So devs tend to make leveling very easy just to keep players coming back for more and seems judging by Wow's success,it works for making money but to a REAL gamer looking for a constant challenge and some depth in game design,there is not much out there to choose from.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Because most people suck at gaming?
I do agree with OP, MMOs should reward things like timing better, having many skills is useless if you just can rotate them with very little impact on your performance.
Using the right skill at the right time really should be far more rewarding that it is, positioning and moving as you fight have become more common in games though.
As I see it a MMOs should be like chess: easy to learn but a long time to master. And tactics should be more important than gear or stats, particularly for PvP games. Today are most fights in PvP games decided when they start depending on the gear, levels and so on.
MMOs usually reward people who grind better than people who play good.
It would seem that some people think the only skills worthy of note are motor skills. Personally, I much prefer games that test my mental skills. Maybe the recent focus on motor skills in MMORPG gaming is a result of failed responses from the masses in regards to any kind of mental challenge.
The trend I've noticed is that the faster you speed up the gameplay, the less challenging the content becomes and the greater focus that goes into the combat mechanics themselves. I call it the "Whackamole Effect".
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
If there is no skill in MMO's why is it that so few people ever see the end game to completion? And I'm not just talking about raids either even small group content in games like EQ2 only a very small percentage of the population ever completes all of it.
Also why is it there is such a huge difference between really good players and average ones? it's true that gear does make a difference but I have known many players playing the same classes in the same gear doing the same fight where one player excels beyond his peers all else being equal.
Yea sure you can squeak by almost any MMO being average but that doesn't mean the ability to excel isn't there with good play, smart planning and yea skillful execution of your class. Maybe the issue is more one of the game not advertising exceptional players like they do in other genres? Or the places where skill is required are not as obvious as some other types of games? Either way it doesn't mean skill isn't there just that you are not taking the time or energy to go find it.
This...in spades.
RPG's have always been more about your brain and your love for rich story than you twitch ability.
Now that the action genre community has bled in, we don't get much of that anymore. Thanks....
MMORPGs are designed to require no skill because its easy for the company to keep people grinding for new gear to get more powerful. If gear didnt matter and only player skill was the involved (unfortunately we dont have that), people would not have that fake feeling of accomplishing something when getting more powerful gear so they would not play the game (pffffft)
It is not the only reason but it is one of the reasons why gear grind is the norm instead of player skill.
Another reason is the catering to casual players who are the majority of payers and want a walk in the park when playing every game, including mmorpgs.
On a side note, If making enemies bullet spongy and 100% accurate (cough Destiny) is what companies consider difficult and requiring player skill nowadays, then ill gladly stay with casual faceroll easy mmos. When talking about player skill it goes hand in hand with difficulty. I want difficult gameplay but fair, like the Souls/Borne games. You can beat those naked if you know how to fight the tough encounters and the sense of accomplishment is way bigger than getting a random raid drop in an mmo (to me anyway).
TLDR: to add player skill that works well with difficult and smart AI, gear requirement needs to go away or become less relevant. And im OK with that.
I would argue that having patience is a skill......no?
hehe I so agree.....I actually removed a almost similar sentence
no.
And why would anyone need patience to play games? We are talking about entertainment, not real world important stuff.
I will be the first to admit .. when it comes to entertainment, patience has little value. It does not make things more fun .. at least not for me.
Well that might be so but I wasn't really talking that you need patience to have fun now did I.
No, you just said something to say something. It had no relevance just like your last comment. You shouldn't need patience in order to enjoy yourself in a game. This isn't 1999 and genre has evolved past me grind 200 mobs and sitting for 5 minutes waiting to regenerate health.
There is also a distinct difference between time spent in game in order to progress and having patience.
2009: The Chronicles of Spellborn - A very skill-intensive MMO, taken over after four months and ultimately closed down soon after.
2014: Wildstar - Another difficult MMO, with the world first DS40 clear coming seven months after release. It is struggling after one year, and will be free-to-play in August.
Personally, I really wish skill-based MMOs were economically feasible. From now on, it seems we have to learn to live with "skill hybrid" gaming.