Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Old School..Whats wrong with everyone ?
delete5230
Member EpicPosts: 7,081
Here is something that bothers me,
Whenever anyone brings up the words " Old School ", everyone here instantly reverts back to VERY OLD mmos such as UO or Everquest 1, or DAOC, even Vanilla World of Warcraft in its deepest broken stages of how it was from day one of release.
Then they poke fun at the poster !!!!
If a newer " Old School " mmo were made, I can assure you it would not be made with 2001 graphic stick figures or extremely cartoonish world or only fetch 10 skunk tails, unless the developers are trying to code it for lower end machines.
This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
Comments
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
You can poke fun at this topic all you like but EVERYONE has to be able to face that were in a decline of staying power in all games made as of the past few years.
Pantheon is my last hope. I'm keeping a loose eye on this one, very loose, because if it will have a cash shop, I'm taking my ball and bat and going home.
Not only do I want an Old School MMORPG that plays like an old school MMORPG, but I also want....
an Old School MMORPG that is developed and FUNDED like the old school ones were.
No Crowdfunding Schemes, no Paid Alpha or Beta Test Phases, in other words NO out of pocket costs for the MMORPG Player / Customer until it is officially released.
Crowd Funding overall has been shown to be a good thing for many types of projects, but Crowdfunding when applied to the Online Gaming Industry, especially MMO Development, has been shown to be untrustworthy.... and if Developers can't use self-control and make good decisions on how the money entrusted to them by the Players is spent during development, if I can't trust a Developer before their MMO is released, then why would I trust them after release?
Under that criteria Pathfinder failed in my eyes. It's off my radar no matter how good it ends up because I will never be able to trust the Devs because of how they chose to fund it and what happened as a result. So to me all these calls to "save Pathfinder Online" are self-serving cries of desperation from People who screwed up and now don't want to pay the price for their bad decisions. Your appeals are lost on me.
Pass this on to the Devs of PFO, will you? Thanks.
"Old Schoolers" are often laughed and because they seem to forget that what they yearn for wasn't perfection. Mostly far from it. While so much has been lost to the progression of the genre, so much in stability and playability has been gained. But the vets tend to like to die on their hill of "IT NEVER GOT BETTER THAN *whatever game introduced them to the concept of MMOs*!!!!"
The thing is, things did get better. Other things got worse. We get laughed at because in order to incorporate the best of both the old and the new would require a budget far beyond what any developer could draw, given that the old school mechanics are factually a niche; a budget far too bloated for that niche to support. Without the polish and stability of the new, any attempt at a game will be (and has been) panned by the community. Without the old school features, we're just left with what we have now.
All that being said, the community is different than it once was. Unless you're rolling with a solid guild, being in an MMO that isn't soloable is a trying experience at best. I find myself yearning for gaming features that necessitate that old sense of community, but this plays into the "be careful what you wish for" area. Do I really want today's average MMO community to be necessary to my experience? While I wish I could say yes, I definitely do not. I'd love a community that I could answer yes to that. But no game made is going to make that magically happen.
But you ask why we get laughed at, then say MMOs aren't MMOs and then hang all your hopes on a game in development before threatening to take your ball and go home. The answer to your question seems self evident.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Maybe us old school vets (me) want something other than stability and playability in our MMO, or perhaps we see some things as more important than stability and playability, or that the price of losing some things just to attain stability and playability was too high a price.
(I am not directing my comments at your post in particular, but you brought up some very good points I desired to respond to. It is not my intention to offend.)
I can play a MMO with instability and playability being not perfect. I won't play a MMO where some of the old content and features and game design I prefer is sacrificed for stability and playability, and other new features.
I liked MMOs as they were then. I don't like them much as they are now.
It SHOULD have oldschool graphics, and here is why... Game development art is one of the most expensive things, taking up literally thousands of images, models, textures and what not. I would ask you this, given X amount of dollars would you rather have everquest 1 style graphics with way more content or newer graphics with less???
I personally would rather play stickfigureMMO if it meant it had a ton of content and lots to do. Everquest was my first MMO, and one thing that was great about it was how hardcore it was, and I am not talking mindless Korean style leveling hardcore, I am talking level 30 mobs walking by the level 1 areas, them chasing you till you die or zone out. It had tens of thousands of quests and oh, no directions, half of them were cryptic until people posted solutions to them online, quest that literally took you across entire continents.
Everquest had hundreds of unique spells, hell there was a spell to change the friggen weather in game.... It felt more D&D with gear, and how the original stuff didn't have minimum levels even on it, so you could twink out a second character. Tons of quests, tons of spells, hardcore where every single pull of a mob could end up in you getting wrecked.
I can honestly say there has not been another game where pulling a small mob that is blue to you could turn into a dozen people dying because of it in ANY other game...
If you want WOW again with new graphics go have at it, that has been done 200 times in the last few years and look how long those games survived? I wan't hardcore without the grind, I want unique classes not the same crap rehashed over and over.
The opening OP post are facts that people seem to equate to " Old School "......They think of Old !
The second OP post is just my opinion. because I don't like anything about newer mmos at all.
Us "old schoolers" often forget the bad parts with the games we played back in the Days and only remember the good times. We are searching for that good old feeling (kick if you like) we had back in the Days that won't come back and since it is not coming back we blame the people that play the new games, we blame the games and we blame the developers. It was so new to us back then, this whole concept, that we had the time of our lives. Of course we don't remember how inbalanced stuff was, the bugs or Everything else that was bad. We remember the feeling we had with the other players when playing the game when it was fun.
This is the first time I refer to myself as a old schooler. But since you mentioned some of the games I have played I guess I am one. I truly hate all the game bashing that goes on in the forums on this site. I just don't get how people can get offended when someone bash a game you like. I mean if you like it you do, why do you care what other Think about the game. And I also see the people you refer to as old schoolers that acts as if Everything was better Before. It wasn't! It is just that the drug that used to make you happy doesn't give you the same feeling anymore. It is not the same players. It is not the same sensation anymore.
One thing I do not like with new games though is that most of them are so easy. Everyone should be able to get to max in crafting in no time, Arrows to all the places in the World, all should be able to get the best gear etc. I guess I have that in common with many of the old school posters here.
No offence to the poster, as everyone equates Old with Old School.
Important :
This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.......
- The Good old times !
- Back Then !
- Unbalancing !
Then you can add.......
- Old stick graphics !
- Fighting animation sucked !
- Abilities that were strange !
- Ugly armor !
- Bad music !
- Bad development and coding !
- Crappie simple fetch quest !
This is how the common poster equates Old School to OLD GAME....
THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THEY STOPED MAKING OLD SCHOOL MMOS. There fore it's the only reference ANYONE HAS !
'Old School' by definition refers to the past, and usually to a time in which things were done the long way or the hard way. Things weren't perfect back then, but there was a sense of accomplishment having done it nonetheless.
Technically speaking 'old school' applies to everyone because everyone has a past. The old joke, I used to walk 3 miles to school, in the snow, up hill, both ways... means something to those who actually lived far from school and there were no bus lines. Parents didn't drop them off at school because they were never dropped off at school. It's just the way things were. One day down the road people will look back at what you did today and laugh at the archaicness of it all. 'What? You used cell phones?' in the same bane as those of us who actually used 2400 baud modems back in the day to access the internet.
Your old school may not be the same as my old school... depends on how old you are. You can't relate to a past you've never lived, you can only mock it. The bright side is, some of us lived during a time in which Pluto was a planet, having been named after a Disney character that was actually quite popular at the time. Most people today have never even seen a Pluto cartoon and wouldn't even recognize Pluto unless he was running around in a faux fur suit at Disney World. Times have changed, but a person's past will always be a person's past. That's what life is all about, acquiring one's own personal history to pass on to the future generation. It brings the present into perspective when you realize how much different it is from the past.
They are not old MMOs. They are evolved into new ones ... to survive and thrive. If you could attach ANY word, why not attach MMO? It is not like websites & reviewers are not doing it already.
The people that get all crazy when you talk about an old school MMO are the same people that consume the content of new MMO's like locust. The reason they poke fun at an old school MMO or the talk of even creating one is because its a game they cant consume, its like the super fat guy at the buffet being pissed because there is something on the buffet table he cant devour and enjoy.
The thought that an MMO is being developed that they cant suck the life out of in 30 days then go to forums and trash talk, while looking to the next host to suck dry bothers them.
Asheron's call 2 is Old skool but it fails because of newer generations plus old generation plays like new generation.
They all want it fast want solo and spoonfed which is almost imposible because AC2 don't have all the new ezmode and spoonfed.
AC2 is rather hardcore when it come to grind and crafting but high lvls even make it kind posible for new players to help a hand this is not even appreciated they still whine and most time quit because they want it more easy and fast and hold hand.
AC2 is mmorpg with no instance no guides ingame mo hold hand and you realy have to infest no NPC MARKED ON MAP OR HAVE !-? above there head. It's also very group depended to level xp but they all just wanne solo and duoboxing with 5 followers so they can solo content.
Old skool don't work anymore Asheron's call 2 have proof that.
I have played in from 2002-2005 and new beta release in 2012 on off for around 1.5 year im lvl 96 so i kno what im talking about.
Old Skool is dead i'm affraid.
That's reason why i don't bother anymore with mmo's and just play solo RPG'S.
Btw graphics for AC2 even today are not that bad i played on 2560x1440p(yeh it support this resolution even its a 2002 game) and game looks great for 2002 old game. See AC2 sections for screenshots. Way ahead of it's time with graphics.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
This is the oft suggested "nostalgia" factor which I personally don't feel is valid.
There is a DAOC freeshard that I played a few years ago that was set to a 2003 rule set, right after SI launched, and though they did not turn on SI, I rediscovered my love for the game and had the best 9 months of gaming in many years.
They didn't implement it exactly, it had some extra instances they employed themselves, slightly different battleground ranges and realm rank rules, and took away the brutal increase in the leveling curve that used to exist in the original game from ranks 40 - 50 and all the changes were great IMO.
They took the server down however, because they could not get the SI expansion to work, and they have been working on it for over a year now and appear to be ready to go live again "soon".
So, yes, if they implement the game the way it was back in the "old" days, you can enjoy it like you did before, at least it was true in my case.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
We have been assured multiple times that their intent is to not have a cash shop - sub only. This is a subject that is very important to me - so I asked multiple times about it.
As an "old schooler", I've mentioned things I wish would return from the older MMORPG's I've played... WHILE also mentioning many things I didn't want to return. AND how those things I wished to see return and be incorporated with the many features improved upon by the newer ones... Just to be rediculed, taunted, told I wear rose colored glasses and am lost in nostalgia, laughed at, and name called by the usual suspects here.
Let say it taste develop .
Immature one like sweet only while matured one like odd tastes .
Odd tastes are addict , when you taste them one , you want to taste them more
For example durian , it smell , hard to eat at first . But when you used to it , you want more .
Huh? What are they then since you seem to hold the definition. I guess I've been playing other types of games all these years...go figure.
Agreed. It's absolutely ridiculous.
I recall a conversation I had with someone making the claim old movies are so much better than the current crop.
I put on a silent film from the 20s and asked how that was a better film than something released today to prove my point.
This has become a generational thing now. MmoRPG's started to become a big thing 18+ years ago. It has NOTHING to do with graphics as we all adjust to the ever growing technological progression. Those games were different than most of today. You either know the reasons why games have changes or you don't ... I won't rehash them here as I have written many long posts about this already and this forum as been swamped with such threads as well.
The core reason why discussing this topic is a difficult one is the same reason why a 40+ year old doesn't hang out with 15-25 year old friends or have many meaningful discussion with them: the difference in life experience. If one does they are mentally and emotionally stunted ... yet everyone on message boards blindly thinks everyone is the same. So much so it appears to almost be a taboo to even mention age difference. Age is a difference. It always has been. It is the entire reason why parents raise and mentor their young. It is the reason why every society's leadership on Earth is filled with aged people. EXPERIENCE.
Most here have never played old school mmos during their prime. If they have played them later it is when their graphics and game play mechanics have become aged. By definition this means those experiences are different. The only players who can enter an old school discussion and understand all angles of the conversion are those old enough to have played those games AND ALSO old enough during that time to have played at a maturity level of an adult. Otherwise you are retelling stories of your childhood which are too narrow a viewpoint to compare to adult experiences. This all means very, very few of us on these boards are capable of approaching this subject with fully adult level social experience.
I played my first mmo (Asheron's Call ... a game with no 36 hour boss camping so don't think all old school games are the same) when I was 27 or 28 years old. If you think my social experience in that game was the same as someone playing Wow in 2005 when they were a teenager you are out of your mind with delusions. This means that when I played Wow in 2005 I was 34 years old. I was already on my second career and wrapping up my sports career as well. I had been to college twice, lost count of how many girlfriends I had had and been through so many ups and downs in my life that they had now become a blur and I was also attempting to start a real family. The reality of the real world was hitting me hard. ALL of this is impossible for a teenager to grasp until they also have experience all of it.
The point to all of this is that WHY we play these games may be the same but WHAT we expect out of such social games is entirely different depending on how much life experience you have. All those things you find important in your teens and even into your 20's is entirely different when you get older ... and I can say this a million times are you won't understand it until you get older.
So lets spell this out: Old School games are an adult experience from a time not everyone on this forum was an adult in. You CANNOT understand our viewpoint because you never lived it. It can be further argued that most of the games released over the last 7+ years have not had anywhere near the social demands on it's players as old school games. This further divides everyone's views on this subject. Compare this to the changing real world of fast food, cell phones and convenience and you further strip expectations of social demands in mmos with newer generations. They simply cannot understand old school views because, again, they have not experience it ... and may never will if wrapped up into this new reality.
This reminds me of a conversion with a co-worker not long back. I mentioned how I have no real attachment to my cell phone. I can walk away from it and head out for a short time with zero worry about nobody reaching me. Such things as going to the gym is my personal time, my zen time, and phones have no place in it. She couldn't wrap her head around this. She told me in a straight face that I should go seek help because I shouldn't ever feel I should leave my phone behind. She considered it a weakness in me that I couldn't adapt to the "modern" world (I am in IT so I found this rather amusing). The conversation saddened me because I felt very, very sorry for her because this way of thinking saturated all areas of her life which was a chaotic mess of stress and anger. Her mind is fragmented and she lacks a sense of clarity and perspective. If you understand my side of the story you may very well be on your way to understanding the old school mmorpg debate.
You stay sassy!
When I started playing EQ1 in 2001, that was pretty much the only game in town. I had a few rl friends who played it and had a guild to roll with. Keeping in mind the limited social media at the time and the relatively few options, people tended to stay with the game through ups and downs. That is how the longevity and sense of community arose, mostly from a lack of alternatives.
Now, there are dozens of games to chose from. With modern social media, you aren't even leaving your gaming network behind when you jump to a new game, most guilds at minimum have a webpage, most have a facebook page and a twitter feed as well (not to mention some form of voice chat to meet up with friends on.).
Even when I go back to EQ1 on a progression server, the game hasn't changes significantly, the environment it operates in has and I have. A lot of "old schoolers" talk fondly about camping Raster in L Guk, but if I had to sit there with a friend camping a spawn for 36 hours again, I would probably go play something else (and regardless of what others say, I think they would too).
Nobody is asking for 36 hour spawn times to return. You entered an old game in contemporary times. Old school discussion is about a different gaming philosophy applied to modern game development.
You stay sassy!
It's about expectations. Everyone expect newer game to be "everything older game have" except better.
When reality, the budget of games never gone up that much. Better graphic often don't bring better game play, but make development harder.
People are expecting when technology continue to rise, the depth of game will continue too. When reality that's not the truth.
That's just it. Some DO think old school means 36 hour respawns, some hate them, some think it means corpse runs, some think that sucked. Some want it to be long level up time, some want that dropped... In the end nobody actually defines 'old school' so it can't be a thing to which we can return. Case in point; as soon as someone does define 'old school' then a bunch of old timers comes on and debates the definition.
In the end none of this is 'old school', what you are experiencing is called nostalgia and it's not a game, it's a mental condition.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Great comment ^
Some modern MMOs can be enjoyed as solo RPGs. There is no need to avoid them just because some sites call them MMOs.