From the point of yet another Old Schooler, I think a mix of both worlds is what's needed for a game to flourish. What I mean by that is there are a ton of great things about both new and old games.
Here's what I want to see and hopefully Pantheon is listening
1.) Slow leveling ala EQ1. Having areas where people can solo and others that require groups should also be a thing since not everyone can spend long play sessions.
2.) Both instances and open world bosses/dungeons. After playing on the new EQ TLP servers I fully revert my no instances policy. Having instances allows guilds/groups to schedule things on their time without being locked out or having to poop sock.
3.) In depth tradeskills. Give me a reason to actually want to do this. Crafting should be something that is needed in the world not secondary. Crafters should be able to make some very powerful things that are ideally wanted by the population past lvl 10.
4.) Limited quick travel. Moving from continent to continent is fine but only allow say druid/wiz ports from EQ1. The insta porting to dungeons and such is just too much and ruins immersion.
5.) Simplified combat. Not simple, but simplified. EQ1 was a bit too simple. EQ2 was way the hell overboard. I don't want to have 30+ buttons to watch or even have on my bars for that matter. Give me 15-20 skills that progress via level and we're good. If you need to use a 13 button rotation to put out good damage then you are trying to hard and limiting our ability to be social.
6.) Group based with meaningful questing. It's an MMO. If I wanted a single player game I have a console for that. Quests shouldn't be something that I use to go from place to place gaining levels. They should be something I search for because of the rewards offered. XP should come from actually fighting and exploring the world. Again still have those areas at all levels where people can solo if they want. Even if that area doesn't provide as much xp as the others it gives people with little time something to do or those looking for a group to not sit idle.
I'm sure I could keep going but that's about the basics. I want the difficulty of old school with some new school flair. Essentially I wanted a new EQ1 but when the TLP servers dropped and how bad it is poop socking raid targets it is just not what I can do anymore. 2am hate/fear raids for CT/Inny when I have to be at work for 5am just doesn't work.
Really hoping that an up and coming title can at least give us some sense of this but I think the only one coming close is Pantheon.
All of those things are Pantheon tenets minus the instancing. Thus far they've said they intend for the world to be open and contested, but ideally with enough content to cater to the needs of everyone on a server. The are designing the game to be harder and group-centric from the start so it will naturally take longer and involve some level of competition for the hardest and most rewarding content.
Its on them to create challenging content fast enough that it prevents poopsocking, but that was not nearly as big of a problem on classic EQ servers as it is on emulators with static content for years at a time with everyone sitting max level. Unlike modern games, in EQ, not everyone played to raid, and very few people even made it to "end game" before new content was already being released. My guess is that they will try to replicate that experience to some degree with Pantheon.
From the point of yet another Old Schooler, I think a mix of both worlds is what's needed for a game to flourish. What I mean by that is there are a ton of great things about both new and old games.
Here's what I want to see and hopefully Pantheon is listening
1.) Slow leveling ala EQ1. Having areas where people can solo and others that require groups should also be a thing since not everyone can spend long play sessions.
2.) Both instances and open world bosses/dungeons. After playing on the new EQ TLP servers I fully revert my no instances policy. Having instances allows guilds/groups to schedule things on their time without being locked out or having to poop sock.
3.) In depth tradeskills. Give me a reason to actually want to do this. Crafting should be something that is needed in the world not secondary. Crafters should be able to make some very powerful things that are ideally wanted by the population past lvl 10.
4.) Limited quick travel. Moving from continent to continent is fine but only allow say druid/wiz ports from EQ1. The insta porting to dungeons and such is just too much and ruins immersion.
5.) Simplified combat. Not simple, but simplified. EQ1 was a bit too simple. EQ2 was way the hell overboard. I don't want to have 30+ buttons to watch or even have on my bars for that matter. Give me 15-20 skills that progress via level and we're good. If you need to use a 13 button rotation to put out good damage then you are trying to hard and limiting our ability to be social.
6.) Group based with meaningful questing. It's an MMO. If I wanted a single player game I have a console for that. Quests shouldn't be something that I use to go from place to place gaining levels. They should be something I search for because of the rewards offered. XP should come from actually fighting and exploring the world. Again still have those areas at all levels where people can solo if they want. Even if that area doesn't provide as much xp as the others it gives people with little time something to do or those looking for a group to not sit idle.
I'm sure I could keep going but that's about the basics. I want the difficulty of old school with some new school flair. Essentially I wanted a new EQ1 but when the TLP servers dropped and how bad it is poop socking raid targets it is just not what I can do anymore. 2am hate/fear raids for CT/Inny when I have to be at work for 5am just doesn't work.
Really hoping that an up and coming title can at least give us some sense of this but I think the only one coming close is Pantheon.
All of those things are Pantheon tenets minus the instancing. Thus far they've said they intend for the world to be open and contested, but ideally with enough content to cater to the needs of everyone on a server. The are designing the game to be harder and group-centric from the start so it will naturally take longer and involve some level of competition for the hardest and most rewarding content. Its on them to create challenging content fast enough that is also to prevent poopsocking, but that was not nearly as big of a problem on classic EQ servers as it is on emulators with static content for years at a time with everyone sitting max level.
Yea. I've followed Pantheon since the kickstarter and even asked Brad questions myself. According to him there will be some instancing along with open world bosses which IMO is the right way to approach things. That's why I'm hanging a lot of my hope with Pantheon
Yea. I've followed Pantheon since the kickstarter and even asked Brad questions myself. According to him there will be some instancing along with open world bosses which IMO is the right way to approach things. That's why I'm hanging a lot of my hope with Pantheon
Ya, the only instancing they've mentioned "may" be in the game would involve story content. As for dungeons, both raid and group, so far they've said all will be open and contested.
The fact that they were designed to be persistent worlds seems to negate this. Then theres the issue of player retention that most MMOs are in a constant battle with that seems to say otherwise.
What MMOs are designed to be persistent worlds now? They are not even "massively".
Originally posted by Dullahan That exclusivity that no longer exists in games is also one of the major reasons players no longer strive for mastery. If everyone can see the easy version of the boss dungeon, not only is that unrealistic and unimmersive, its flat out giving a false sense of accomplishment.
How so? Please do remember that less than 5% of people ever completed old heroic dungeons. So how is a game that locks story content behind a barrier that 95% of people will never achieve immersive?
The exclusivity never came from "seeing" a boss dungeon, it came from community. I belonged to a guild (in WoW) in my earlier years that was so exclusive that we didn't even have enough players to regularly complete 25-man content. However, to this day (3 or 4 years later) I still get people who are surprised to see my guild tag and say they didn't know we were still around (which we really aren't). The exclusivity was something created organically in the gaming community, not based on achievements of the guild itself. If you were ever invited, then you'd accept.
I see absolutely no reason NOT to spoon-feed content. Fact of the matter is that people never completed that content in the first place. So, if nothing else, you're creating greater immersion and greater knowledge of the gaming world people are "living" in. Why? People are currently disconnected from the game stories being told. Period. So they have zero connection to the game world and no compelling reason to stick around and spend their money.
Its the desire to see new things that were previously inaccessible and improving your character that keeps people playing. The fact that you are spoon-fed everything in themepark games with so little time committed is the very reason those games lack longevity.
What does this mean? How much is "so little time". If I had to level 0-100. REALISTICALLY how long would it take someone to level 0-100? That is, someone actually running story quests, not grinding or power levelling? I remember that my BEST time 0-70 was 6 days game time and that was much faster than many. Add on the other xpacks and we're probably talking about 300, 400 hours? For someone new, just starting out, you could probably expect a good 800-1000 hour romp, while taking it all in. Maybe more! Is that really spoon-feeding?
The biggest issue with MMOs is that they create barriers to new players. You want to recruit a friend? Well they don't want to play because they don't want to spend 500 hours catching up with you. Just tag along and follow? Sure!!!! Now you're level 100 and you don't know how to play your class, don't know what's going on, know none of the characters in the game, and you're supposed to be invested in this story? Not really.
Commitment is definitely an issue with MMORPGs, but not in the way you're thinking. You're talking about creating commitment through investment. You're so heavily invested in a game, time wise, that you simply can't give it up. First, that doesn't work, people still leave, and new people won't join because the barrier to entry is so much greater than what they want to invest in. Secondly, you talk about longevity, but the reality is that you will ultimately spend the majority of your time in that game at maximum level. So if you're going to be adding on anywhere, add endgame content, create end-heavy gaming experiences that don't get old. Destiny did this fairly well, creating a small level cap but still offering tough group content.
To be fair iMs Pacman and coin operated games were designed with a game play that allowed for more quarters to be shoved in the machine. Trial and error allowed you to advance and provided coin to the owner of the machine. I don't think that makes todays gamer a moron they just didn't grow up with this mechanic. I also don't believe they are too dumb to figure it out. Modern games just don't have this type of hamster wheel as it isn't necesary.
Yes they did. Just look at WoW with their purple addiction grind. It's a bit different, yet still a cashgrab.
I am just mentioning that the post I referred to was scoffing on old games with poor graphics, while I was pointing out that the current generation only looks at graphics. Yet the content of those ancient games themselves can be more challenging then the games they play NOW.
Fair enough. Sure the grind changes but the participation in it is not what it used to be. To your point people seem content now with consuming the easy content, leaving the grind and hop to the next game. The modern cash grab is to allow folks to pay to make things easier.
What does this mean? How much is "so little time". If I had to level 0-100. REALISTICALLY how long would it take someone to level 0-100? That is, someone actually running story quests, not grinding or power levelling? I remember that my BEST time 0-70 was 6 days game time and that was much faster than many. Add on the other xpacks and we're probably talking about 300, 400 hours? For someone new, just starting out, you could probably expect a good 800-1000 hour romp, while taking it all in. Maybe more! Is that really spoon-feeding?
If you are refering to WoW here, I did 1-100 when WoD launched in 8 days RL time. That's working normal 8-5 hours and playing at most 6 hours at night but up to 15 on weekends. So no your numbers are way off. With the dungeon finder you can get from 15-60 in a day with heirloom gear and the right class
Yea. I've followed Pantheon since the kickstarter and even asked Brad questions myself. According to him there will be some instancing along with open world bosses which IMO is the right way to approach things. That's why I'm hanging a lot of my hope with Pantheon
Ya, the only instancing they've mentioned "may" be in the game would involve story content. As for dungeons, both raid and group, so far they've said all will be open and contested.
That would be a mistake imo. Having to poop sock targets effectively kills any working persons chance at seeing raids each week. I don't mind some thing being open but all things open ... nope. I play MMOs to raid and if I can't raid then the game is pointless to me. Will definitely have to send an email asking about this because it would cause me and every other person I have interested atm to pull from this game
Commitment is definitely an issue with MMORPGs, but not in the way you're thinking. You're talking about creating commitment through investment. You're so heavily invested in a game, time wise, that you simply can't give it up. First, that doesn't work, people still leave, and new people won't join because the barrier to entry is so much greater than what they want to invest in. Secondly, you talk about longevity, but the reality is that you will ultimately spend the majority of your time in that game at maximum level. So if you're going to be adding on anywhere, add endgame content, create end-heavy gaming experiences that don't get old. Destiny did this fairly well, creating a small level cap but still offering tough group content.
commitment is not the problem. Convenience is. You want games that people can jump in and out. You don't keep them by locking them in (because they will leave anyway). You do it by make it fun, and easy for them to come in and play a bit.
What does this mean? How much is "so little time". If I had to level 0-100. REALISTICALLY how long would it take someone to level 0-100? That is, someone actually running story quests, not grinding or power levelling? I remember that my BEST time 0-70 was 6 days game time and that was much faster than many. Add on the other xpacks and we're probably talking about 300, 400 hours? For someone new, just starting out, you could probably expect a good 800-1000 hour romp, while taking it all in. Maybe more! Is that really spoon-feeding?
If you are refering to WoW here, I did 1-100 when WoD launched in 8 days RL time. That's working normal 8-5 hours and playing at most 6 hours at night but up to 15 on weekends. So no your numbers are way off. With the dungeon finder you can get from 15-60 in a day with heirloom gear and the right class
This has been my experience. A few weeks of casual play, at most, and you've completed the instances and are doing raids. You are talking a month tops for players putting moderate time in.
Its a flawed system. From the very start you are talking about dozens of zones that take a year to create and develop assets for, and players spend only a few hours in them. That is just not a proper pace for progression.
What does this mean? How much is "so little time". If I had to level 0-100. REALISTICALLY how long would it take someone to level 0-100? That is, someone actually running story quests, not grinding or power levelling? I remember that my BEST time 0-70 was 6 days game time and that was much faster than many. Add on the other xpacks and we're probably talking about 300, 400 hours? For someone new, just starting out, you could probably expect a good 800-1000 hour romp, while taking it all in. Maybe more! Is that really spoon-feeding?
If you are refering to WoW here, I did 1-100 when WoD launched in 8 days RL time. That's working normal 8-5 hours and playing at most 6 hours at night but up to 15 on weekends. So no your numbers are way off. With the dungeon finder you can get from 15-60 in a day with heirloom gear and the right class
Yeah, exactly, without being "immersed". I was saying actually DOING story quests. He was talking about how spoon-feeding was breaking immersion and then you demonstrated the exact reason why immersion is being broken. The dungeon runs you're talking about are probably you plus a lvl 100 player just plevelling you through. I'm talking questing and actually giving a shit about the game. Otherwise, why not just pop a 90 boost and be done with it? Same experience and you save yourself 50 or 60 hours.
This has been my experience. A few weeks of casual play, at most, and you've completed the instances and are doing raids. You are talking a month tops for players putting moderate time in.
May be that is the problem. Some don't want to spend WEEKS to level up. It depends on what is fun to them.
This has been my experience. A few weeks of casual play, at most, and you've completed the instances and are doing raids. You are talking a month tops for players putting moderate time in.
May be that is the problem. Some don't want to spend WEEKS to level up. It depends on what is fun to them.
And, again, I would ask what does "casual" mean. Are we talking about 6 hours a night here? Daily? Or 8 hours a week? I KNOW we're still not talking about ACTUALLY doing story quests, etc because the amount of content in story quests is generally pretty beefy compared to single player games.
This has been my experience. A few weeks of casual play, at most, and you've completed the instances and are doing raids. You are talking a month tops for players putting moderate time in.
May be that is the problem. Some don't want to spend WEEKS to level up. It depends on what is fun to them.
And, again, I would ask what does "casual" mean. Are we talking about 6 hours a night here? Daily? Or 8 hours a week? I KNOW we're still not talking about ACTUALLY doing story quests, etc because the amount of content in story quests is generally pretty beefy compared to single player games.
Those estimates are accounting for reading and "immersing" yourself in all the quests. Working full time, playing for 3-4 hours tops a night and more on weekends were talking about experiencing all content in less than a months time, not including hardmode instances.
There is no perfect pace. Some people like it slower, more challenging progression thats dependent on grouping. Others just want a path they can skate down with few time constraints. Removing exclusivity from games and focusing on accessibility has led to game design catering to the lowest common denominator. All that can be said for sure is, spending months on content that takes hours to consume is insanity and just another example of the industry failing to learn from its mistakes.
This has been my experience. A few weeks of casual play, at most, and you've completed the instances and are doing raids. You are talking a month tops for players putting moderate time in.
May be that is the problem. Some don't want to spend WEEKS to level up. It depends on what is fun to them.
And, again, I would ask what does "casual" mean. Are we talking about 6 hours a night here? Daily? Or 8 hours a week? I KNOW we're still not talking about ACTUALLY doing story quests, etc because the amount of content in story quests is generally pretty beefy compared to single player games.
Obviously "casual" is subjective. A lot of people may think 6 hours a day is a lot if you do it every day. Some may not.
This has been my experience. A few weeks of casual play, at most, and you've completed the instances and are doing raids. You are talking a month tops for players putting moderate time in.
May be that is the problem. Some don't want to spend WEEKS to level up. It depends on what is fun to them.
And, again, I would ask what does "casual" mean. Are we talking about 6 hours a night here? Daily? Or 8 hours a week? I KNOW we're still not talking about ACTUALLY doing story quests, etc because the amount of content in story quests is generally pretty beefy compared to single player games.
Those estimates are accounting for reading and "immersing" yourself in all the quests. Working full time, playing for 3-4 hours tops a night and more on weekends were talking about experiencing all content in less than a months time, not including hardmode instances.
There is no perfect pace. Some people like it slower, more challenging progression thats dependent on grouping. Others just want a path they can skate down with few time constraints. Removing exclusivity from games and focusing on accessibility has led to game design catering to the lowest common denominator. All that can be said for sure is, spending months on content that takes hours to consume is insanity and just another example of the industry failing to learn from its mistakes.
Again, I would challenge that people are "consuming" the content. If you never actually play through the content then you aren't consuming it at all. It's like ordering dinner at a fancy restaurant and then dumping all the food on the floor and eating the plate.
I'm REALLY sorry, but there is no way that you are CONSUMING the content in something like WoW, for instance, in a week without doing something like grinding dungeons or some other sort of mind-numbingly painful activity. Just ain't happening.
What you view as being insanity, I view as playing the game. Who would have imagined that we would come to the point where our primary concern is getting from point A to B. I remember when it was about having fun and being engaged and playing with friends. Games aren't catering to the lowest common denominator, they're catering to their future. You know why? Because you and I aren't going to be here in 30 years and they'd like people to play their game. Imagine that!! So they've got to train them, start them somewhere.
3-4 hours a night and possibly 8+ hours a day on week ends... We are talking about playing a video game for 30 to 40 hours a week. That's definitely not casual.
Casual players have time for other activities than working and... having a second job at night in a video game instead of spending time with their families and friends.
If one plays that much, he shouldn't be surprised to "consume" 150 hours of content or more in a month.
Yeh... that is a lot. Given there are tons of other entertainment (and we are not talking about the things that are actually important, like work, family and stuff like that), 40 hours a week (that is a full time job) seems excessive.
~25 hours is pretty casual. Thats less time a week than the average American spends watching TV.
Splitting hairs now and arguing that you can't consume WoW content in the time suggested is ludicrous. Outside of heroic end game stuff, you are talking about content that plays out like a saturday morning cartoon. There are few obstacles and failure isn't even an issue.
This has been my experience. A few weeks of casual play, at most, and you've completed the instances and are doing raids. You are talking a month tops for players putting moderate time in.
May be that is the problem. Some don't want to spend WEEKS to level up. It depends on what is fun to them.
This is one of the problems with MMORPG's today, It's all about the end game. They create these huge worlds, but then go and make the leveling process irrelevant, and so quick that you get to the end game and have nothing to do in a matter of days. they essentially make only 5%of the game relevant(raids) and 95% of the game(world/everything else) irrelevant. It shouldnt matter if it takes you somthing crazy like 2 years to get to level cap, just play the game go out into the world and have fun. I find it crazy how people can see long leveling time and see that as a bad thing. Heck i say take away hard level caps, and have soft lvl caps.
~25 hours is pretty casual. Thats less time a week than the average American spends watching TV.
Splitting hairs now and arguing that you can't consume WoW content in the time suggested is ludicrous. Outside of heroic end game stuff, you are talking about content that plays out like a saturday morning cartoon. There are few obstacles and failure isn't even an issue.
I'm still hung up on the whole consumption thing. It seems like your idea of consumption is, literally, gorging with complete disregard for any story of "game" that might be placed in front of you. I just want to confirm that's the case. You're talking about doing everything as quickly as possible via the quickest path, regardless of the story? Just grinding dungeons, /following, powerlevelling-type stuff, right? Point A->B.
This is one of the problems with MMORPG's today, It's all about the end game. They create these huge worlds, but then go and make the leveling process irrelevant, and so quick that you get to the end game and have nothing to do in a matter of days. they essentially make only 5%of the game relevant(raids) and 95% of the game(world/everything else) irrelevant.
Yes .. may be they should just ditch the world .. if the argument is inefficient use of resources. In fact, they should just make re-useable assets for dungeons like in D3. The zone that you use for leveling from 1-10 is the same to be used at end-game adventure mode, and rifts. Ditto for all the monsters.
The problem of a persistent world is that is has to be consistent .. so you cannot use the same part for level 1 and max level. Cutting it up into instances solves that problem.
This is one of the problems with MMORPG's today, It's all about the end game. They create these huge worlds, but then go and make the leveling process irrelevant, and so quick that you get to the end game and have nothing to do in a matter of days. they essentially make only 5%of the game relevant(raids) and 95% of the game(world/everything else) irrelevant.
Yes .. may be they should just ditch the world .. if the argument is inefficient use of resources. In fact, they should just make re-useable assets for dungeons like in D3. The zone that you use for leveling from 1-10 is the same to be used at end-game adventure mode, and rifts. Ditto for all the monsters.
The problem of a persistent world is that is has to be consistent .. so you cannot use the same part for level 1 and max level. Cutting it up into instances solves that problem.
No need for that even, just stick someone in a big grey box with waves of progressively more difficult enemies until you reach max level and then a door opens. That's really all that people need/want. All this annoying story-telling is just getting in the way these days. Then we wonder why things aren't as epic as they once were.
No need for that even, just stick someone in a big grey box with waves of progressively more difficult enemies until you reach max level and then a door opens. That's really all that people need/want. All this annoying story-telling is just getting in the way these days. Then we wonder why things aren't as epic as they once were.
Diablo & other ARPGs are already like that. You don't have to go through a second of the story in D3 if you don't want to (oh actually you have to do it once to open up adventure mode).
Now a grey box is not very interesting .. just pretty up the environment with terrain that can be used for combat (like doors as choke points) then we are talking.
mm as much as i agree with your 'new school' points, it only applies to a certain genre e.g the wow/rift/call it what you will genre.
E.g ESO almost matches your points like for like for old school, and avoids most of the negatives. Other modern mmorpg like GW2, FF,TSW acomplish many of the points raised. Its not old school v new school it has always been current games versus great current games. The difference now is that many people are simply sick of the genre but are in denial about it and have a forum to verify their denial - they can't see the positives in any new game. They pine for the 'old school' while lamenting about 'new school'.
My Grand parents done the same about music 'music was proper music back then'. It takes a bit of intelligence to recognise your own behaviour for what they are. Ask yourself this question (anyone) what are the odds 'all' new games are worse than old games, whats really going on in your head?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
1-2 years to hit max level vs 1 week to hit max level
You said a lot, but didn't really say a lot. Yet this right here, you're pretty much saying only a handful of games are old-school...which makes no logical sense.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
All of those things are Pantheon tenets minus the instancing. Thus far they've said they intend for the world to be open and contested, but ideally with enough content to cater to the needs of everyone on a server. The are designing the game to be harder and group-centric from the start so it will naturally take longer and involve some level of competition for the hardest and most rewarding content.
Its on them to create challenging content fast enough that it prevents poopsocking, but that was not nearly as big of a problem on classic EQ servers as it is on emulators with static content for years at a time with everyone sitting max level. Unlike modern games, in EQ, not everyone played to raid, and very few people even made it to "end game" before new content was already being released. My guess is that they will try to replicate that experience to some degree with Pantheon.
Yea. I've followed Pantheon since the kickstarter and even asked Brad questions myself. According to him there will be some instancing along with open world bosses which IMO is the right way to approach things. That's why I'm hanging a lot of my hope with Pantheon
Ya, the only instancing they've mentioned "may" be in the game would involve story content. As for dungeons, both raid and group, so far they've said all will be open and contested.
What MMOs are designed to be persistent worlds now? They are not even "massively".
What does this mean? How much is "so little time". If I had to level 0-100. REALISTICALLY how long would it take someone to level 0-100? That is, someone actually running story quests, not grinding or power levelling? I remember that my BEST time 0-70 was 6 days game time and that was much faster than many. Add on the other xpacks and we're probably talking about 300, 400 hours? For someone new, just starting out, you could probably expect a good 800-1000 hour romp, while taking it all in. Maybe more! Is that really spoon-feeding?
The biggest issue with MMOs is that they create barriers to new players. You want to recruit a friend? Well they don't want to play because they don't want to spend 500 hours catching up with you. Just tag along and follow? Sure!!!! Now you're level 100 and you don't know how to play your class, don't know what's going on, know none of the characters in the game, and you're supposed to be invested in this story? Not really.
Commitment is definitely an issue with MMORPGs, but not in the way you're thinking. You're talking about creating commitment through investment. You're so heavily invested in a game, time wise, that you simply can't give it up. First, that doesn't work, people still leave, and new people won't join because the barrier to entry is so much greater than what they want to invest in. Secondly, you talk about longevity, but the reality is that you will ultimately spend the majority of your time in that game at maximum level. So if you're going to be adding on anywhere, add endgame content, create end-heavy gaming experiences that don't get old. Destiny did this fairly well, creating a small level cap but still offering tough group content.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Fair enough. Sure the grind changes but the participation in it is not what it used to be. To your point people seem content now with consuming the easy content, leaving the grind and hop to the next game. The modern cash grab is to allow folks to pay to make things easier.
If you are refering to WoW here, I did 1-100 when WoD launched in 8 days RL time. That's working normal 8-5 hours and playing at most 6 hours at night but up to 15 on weekends. So no your numbers are way off. With the dungeon finder you can get from 15-60 in a day with heirloom gear and the right class
That would be a mistake imo. Having to poop sock targets effectively kills any working persons chance at seeing raids each week. I don't mind some thing being open but all things open ... nope. I play MMOs to raid and if I can't raid then the game is pointless to me. Will definitely have to send an email asking about this because it would cause me and every other person I have interested atm to pull from this game
commitment is not the problem. Convenience is. You want games that people can jump in and out. You don't keep them by locking them in (because they will leave anyway). You do it by make it fun, and easy for them to come in and play a bit.
This has been my experience. A few weeks of casual play, at most, and you've completed the instances and are doing raids. You are talking a month tops for players putting moderate time in.
Its a flawed system. From the very start you are talking about dozens of zones that take a year to create and develop assets for, and players spend only a few hours in them. That is just not a proper pace for progression.
Yeah, exactly, without being "immersed". I was saying actually DOING story quests. He was talking about how spoon-feeding was breaking immersion and then you demonstrated the exact reason why immersion is being broken. The dungeon runs you're talking about are probably you plus a lvl 100 player just plevelling you through. I'm talking questing and actually giving a shit about the game. Otherwise, why not just pop a 90 boost and be done with it? Same experience and you save yourself 50 or 60 hours.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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May be that is the problem. Some don't want to spend WEEKS to level up. It depends on what is fun to them.
And, again, I would ask what does "casual" mean. Are we talking about 6 hours a night here? Daily? Or 8 hours a week? I KNOW we're still not talking about ACTUALLY doing story quests, etc because the amount of content in story quests is generally pretty beefy compared to single player games.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Those estimates are accounting for reading and "immersing" yourself in all the quests. Working full time, playing for 3-4 hours tops a night and more on weekends were talking about experiencing all content in less than a months time, not including hardmode instances.
There is no perfect pace. Some people like it slower, more challenging progression thats dependent on grouping. Others just want a path they can skate down with few time constraints. Removing exclusivity from games and focusing on accessibility has led to game design catering to the lowest common denominator. All that can be said for sure is, spending months on content that takes hours to consume is insanity and just another example of the industry failing to learn from its mistakes.
Obviously "casual" is subjective. A lot of people may think 6 hours a day is a lot if you do it every day. Some may not.
Again, I would challenge that people are "consuming" the content. If you never actually play through the content then you aren't consuming it at all. It's like ordering dinner at a fancy restaurant and then dumping all the food on the floor and eating the plate.
I'm REALLY sorry, but there is no way that you are CONSUMING the content in something like WoW, for instance, in a week without doing something like grinding dungeons or some other sort of mind-numbingly painful activity. Just ain't happening.
What you view as being insanity, I view as playing the game. Who would have imagined that we would come to the point where our primary concern is getting from point A to B. I remember when it was about having fun and being engaged and playing with friends. Games aren't catering to the lowest common denominator, they're catering to their future. You know why? Because you and I aren't going to be here in 30 years and they'd like people to play their game. Imagine that!! So they've got to train them, start them somewhere.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Yeh... that is a lot. Given there are tons of other entertainment (and we are not talking about the things that are actually important, like work, family and stuff like that), 40 hours a week (that is a full time job) seems excessive.
~25 hours is pretty casual. Thats less time a week than the average American spends watching TV.
Splitting hairs now and arguing that you can't consume WoW content in the time suggested is ludicrous. Outside of heroic end game stuff, you are talking about content that plays out like a saturday morning cartoon. There are few obstacles and failure isn't even an issue.
This is one of the problems with MMORPG's today, It's all about the end game. They create these huge worlds, but then go and make the leveling process irrelevant, and so quick that you get to the end game and have nothing to do in a matter of days. they essentially make only 5%of the game relevant(raids) and 95% of the game(world/everything else) irrelevant. It shouldnt matter if it takes you somthing crazy like 2 years to get to level cap, just play the game go out into the world and have fun. I find it crazy how people can see long leveling time and see that as a bad thing. Heck i say take away hard level caps, and have soft lvl caps.
I'm still hung up on the whole consumption thing. It seems like your idea of consumption is, literally, gorging with complete disregard for any story of "game" that might be placed in front of you. I just want to confirm that's the case. You're talking about doing everything as quickly as possible via the quickest path, regardless of the story? Just grinding dungeons, /following, powerlevelling-type stuff, right? Point A->B.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Yes .. may be they should just ditch the world .. if the argument is inefficient use of resources. In fact, they should just make re-useable assets for dungeons like in D3. The zone that you use for leveling from 1-10 is the same to be used at end-game adventure mode, and rifts. Ditto for all the monsters.
The problem of a persistent world is that is has to be consistent .. so you cannot use the same part for level 1 and max level. Cutting it up into instances solves that problem.
No need for that even, just stick someone in a big grey box with waves of progressively more difficult enemies until you reach max level and then a door opens. That's really all that people need/want. All this annoying story-telling is just getting in the way these days. Then we wonder why things aren't as epic as they once were.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Diablo & other ARPGs are already like that. You don't have to go through a second of the story in D3 if you don't want to (oh actually you have to do it once to open up adventure mode).
Now a grey box is not very interesting .. just pretty up the environment with terrain that can be used for combat (like doors as choke points) then we are talking.
mm as much as i agree with your 'new school' points, it only applies to a certain genre e.g the wow/rift/call it what you will genre.
E.g ESO almost matches your points like for like for old school, and avoids most of the negatives. Other modern mmorpg like GW2, FF,TSW acomplish many of the points raised. Its not old school v new school it has always been current games versus great current games. The difference now is that many people are simply sick of the genre but are in denial about it and have a forum to verify their denial - they can't see the positives in any new game. They pine for the 'old school' while lamenting about 'new school'.
My Grand parents done the same about music 'music was proper music back then'. It takes a bit of intelligence to recognise your own behaviour for what they are. Ask yourself this question (anyone) what are the odds 'all' new games are worse than old games, whats really going on in your head?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
You said a lot, but didn't really say a lot. Yet this right here, you're pretty much saying only a handful of games are old-school...which makes no logical sense.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson