You can't just say I want freedom in games, If you want that go play outside. Honestly games have design parameters, they are based on numbers. The argument could easily be switched around to say; what's the point of having many options if they all have the same net result? IE: (perfect balance scenario) There will always be an optimal way/build, there's no way around it. Some games hide it better than others.
In any case the statement is valid, he's obviously so against conformity that he would rather have a subpar spec, over playing what others might be playing. This is an actual medically recognized issue, sometimes linked with depression. We aren't sure what makes people want to weaken themselves to be "one off" but it happens in society, every day. Some people just alienate themselves, and like it that way.
I'm not trying to say that everyone should be the same, I'm saying you can only design so much into a game, and have it feel different. There will always be a degree of similarity, and there will always an optimal choice, for a given task.
Wait, daring to be different is now a bad thing? WTF are you smoking? Conformity is a sign of weakness my friend. Not the other way around.
Conformity is the basis for society, one cannot exist without the other. It's not a sign of weakness, it's a part of survival. Edit: Also when I say conformity on a video game thread, I'm talking about it in context of a video game, (read:things being similar), not a political context.
Ok, so let's talk about the context of gaming and the community. I have to agree with MisterZeebub in that the gaming community in general has gone down hill rather quickly. Too many elitists and instant gratification kids have wrecked the online genre and I'm sure most of them migrated over from FPS community. Online gaming USED to be about having fun, you know, for entertainment purposes with friends and family. It used to be about playing whatever type of class or profession you found fun and enjoyable. Now it seems you can't even play a game if you are playing the "wrong" class. So there you have it, you don't play games to have fun. You play games to WIN.
this , and isnt a Gw2 issue , in other games if u play this spec or this class u are doing it wrong, because X + Y is more powerfull..... while i minmax in raiding, if im doing low man / solo content , i would play the spec / build i want and the elitists can go to hell...because i remember running Ranger , and having fun with my longbow / greatsword and wolf pet , was just lvl 20~ opening skills and whatnot....and here comes another guy and start talking how shortbow is better that wolf was useless and blablabla , ehm im lvl 20 man....just having fun doing events around here , i dont even have a shortbow yet...but that doesnt stop him to say to call me n00b and that horrible players like me are killing the genre .... ( i was what??? look at the 4!!$ing mirror )
The fotm ppl that instant kick ranger/engi becuse useless proffessions are useless .../sigh
Leveled up to 31+ and it seems like my character progression is completely finished? As an example, on Necromancer I have all the pets, the full spec line focused on pets maxed out, and all equipment slots filled.
What's left? I could level and put points into other specs I don't plan to use? I could level and get better gear which gets scaled down depending on area? I could sit around and hope that maybe... MAYBE a group gets together for group content? Past 2 afternoons and evenings i've been looking for a non level 80 group to do story mode instances and none pop up. The ones that do pop are either 80 only or substantially higher level req.
Simply put, it seems like there is no real reason to keep playing or leveling since I don't see any new unlocks or goals for my character outside of getting more stats (which again scale down).
So, am I missing something? Do you continue to unlock new skill upgrades and bonuses to benefit a spec past unlocking the skills for it (which can be done by level 31)?
You could try have some fun in the game?
I can't see why so many players are really fanatically obsessed about 'progression'.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
GW2 is very good game, but there is absolutely no reason to play it. No progression. You can reach lvl 80 in 3 days. And then there is absolutely no progression. No new skills , no better equipment...nothing - Only thing you can continue playing for is cosmetic items
So the only reason you play MMOs is progress?
I play games because it's fun, not because the game bribes me.
As for no better equipment that is just rubbish. You might get lvled up to 80 when you enter WvW but beating someone in ascended gear with green lvl 31 rubbish takes extreme skill.
One of the reasons I play mmoRPGs is progress. From pnp to crpgs character progression was always one on the core pillars of the genre.
There is merit to games with little to no progression, I mean people are playing and enjoying CounterStrike and the likes but as you can see in the recent years even games like CoD and Battlefield introduced rpg elements (levels, unlocks, perks) simply because people like them. They give a sense of accomplishment, a target to "work" towards, a carrot on a stick if you like. Ultimately, they make people come back.
It's perfectly ok to like a MMO game with minimal progression like GW2, but personally I prefer MMORPGs.
Thank you for this text book example of elitist narcissism and contempt for anyone that doesn't share your outlook. The condescension, the insults, the insinuation of my lack of game skill, its all there. You've just hammered home my point far better than any example I could have used. Its this exact thinking that has made most MMO communities into toxic hell holes and why so many games these days seem to missing the one vital factor of their very existence ... FUN.
GW2 is all about FUN, unfortunately GW2 is not the problem.
But of course you need to actually play the game to know that.
Played the game extensively at launch and though it has changed since then, at its core it hasn't changed all that much. Plus I keep up with the games progress through friends who still play. Nice straw man argument though.
"You know nothing of winter Don Ho."
You actually admit you know nothing. Good for you.
You can't just say I want freedom in games, If you want that go play outside. Honestly games have design parameters, they are based on numbers. The argument could easily be switched around to say; what's the point of having many options if they all have the same net result? IE: (perfect balance scenario) There will always be an optimal way/build, there's no way around it. Some games hide it better than others.
In any case the statement is valid, he's obviously so against conformity that he would rather have a subpar spec, over playing what others might be playing. This is an actual medically recognized issue, sometimes linked with depression. We aren't sure what makes people want to weaken themselves to be "one off" but it happens in society, every day. Some people just alienate themselves, and like it that way.
I'm not trying to say that everyone should be the same, I'm saying you can only design so much into a game, and have it feel different. There will always be a degree of similarity, and there will always an optimal choice, for a given task.
Wait, daring to be different is now a bad thing? WTF are you smoking? Conformity is a sign of weakness my friend. Not the other way around.
Conformity is the basis for society, one cannot exist without the other. It's not a sign of weakness, it's a part of survival. Edit: Also when I say conformity on a video game thread, I'm talking about it in context of a video game, (read:things being similar), not a political context.
Ok, so let's talk about the context of gaming and the community. I have to agree with MisterZeebub in that the gaming community in general has gone down hill rather quickly. Too many elitists and instant gratification kids have wrecked the online genre and I'm sure most of them migrated over from FPS community. Online gaming USED to be about having fun, you know, for entertainment purposes with friends and family. It used to be about playing whatever type of class or profession you found fun and enjoyable. Now it seems you can't even play a game if you are playing the "wrong" class. So there you have it, you don't play games to have fun. You play games to WIN.
GW2 is very good game, but there is absolutely no reason to play it. No progression. You can reach lvl 80 in 3 days. And then there is absolutely no progression. No new skills , no better equipment...nothing - Only thing you can continue playing for is cosmetic items
So the only reason you play MMOs is progress?
I play games because it's fun, not because the game bribes me.
As for no better equipment that is just rubbish. You might get lvled up to 80 when you enter WvW but beating someone in ascended gear with green lvl 31 rubbish takes extreme skill.
One of the reasons I play mmoRPGs is progress. From pnp to crpgs character progression was always one on the core pillars of the genre.
There is merit to games with little to no progression, I mean people are playing and enjoying CounterStrike and the likes but as you can see in the recent years even games like CoD and Battlefield introduced rpg elements (levels, unlocks, perks) simply because people like them. They give a sense of accomplishment, a target to "work" towards, a carrot on a stick if you like. Ultimately, they make people come back.
It's perfectly ok to like a MMO game with minimal progression like GW2, but personally I prefer MMORPGs.
Nope, character progression was never pillar, it was side dish.
Only MMOs tried to define RPG as character progression because they werent RPGs and had nothing else but character progression.
I'm hoping raids will open up non zerker, non stacking tactics in gw2. I am waiting to buy hot until I see how they play out. If they turn out like dungeons, then GW2 truly will have failed at the non-trinity attempt at pve.
here's to hoping.
ps- still waiting for a warrior power sword build... I swing my sword again...
You get tons more unlocks.. and another 2 specializations. There is so much to do in GW2 it's untrue... I've put in over 600 hours and I haven't even got 100% map completion.. because other things just pull away from finishing it all the time. Even after all is said and done.. it's a great game for setting your own progression goals. E.G. collection all the mace weapon skins.. getting all the skins and unlocks from the gem store (without spending real money).. rank up PvP.. WvW...
And.. unless you're covered head to toe in ascended armour, you are no where near done.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Nope, character progression was never pillar, it was side dish.
Only MMOs tried to define RPG as character progression because they werent RPGs and had nothing else but character progression.
MMOs were NEVER RPGs.
Dude I've been playing pnp RPGs for almost 2 decades now. Don't embarrass yourself by sh*tposting.
[mod edit]
RPGs both pen and paper and computer games have always been about progression. Through travel, through story, through levels and/or skills gained, enemies overcome, treasure amassed. There is always some kind of yard stick with which to measure your character's achievements. Hell even some of the most beloved fantasy epics are all about progression. How cool would we think Bilbo Bagins was if he spent his entire life safe in the Shire? Or Luke Slywalker if he'd just spent the rest of his life working on Uncle Ben's moisture farm?
Now I would agree that just because most of your main character abilities cap out before level 80 in GW2 doesn't mean there aren't other types of progression to enjoy. Its just from what I've experienced not everyone happens to find them enjoyable. They don't feel that what they're getting back for their efforts is a recognizable reward for time spent. There's nothing wrong with that, but at the same time there's nothing wrong with the people that do.
well said.. except for, it was uncle Owen's Farm :P
Post edited by Amana on
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If someone feels like they have experienced everything a game has to offer, then these impressions are perfectly valid. One can argue that they haven't seen everything, because they haven't earned A and B, or visited X and Y, until they are blue in the face; but the fact clearly is that the game is not providing enough incentive or basic fun for them to want to experience these elements. Either the game is not for them, or there is a fault in the games fundamental design that is not providing that feeling of progression that some gamers need in order to have fun playing.
I see a lot of arguments here telling people they haven't experienced everything a game has to offer. It seems to be the standard fanboy response. But it is irrelevant if I have no desire, or feel no incentive to experience everything a game has to offer. The game has failed to draw me into all of its content.
If someone feels like they have experienced everything a game has to offer, then these impressions are perfectly valid. One can argue that they haven't seen everything, because they haven't earned A and B, or visited X and Y, until they are blue in the face; but the fact clearly is that the game is not providing enough incentive or basic fun for them to want to experience these elements. Either the game is not for them, or there is a fault in the games fundamental design that is not providing that feeling of progression that some gamers need in order to have fun playing.
I see a lot of arguments here telling people they haven't experienced everything a game has to offer. It seems to be the standard fanboy response. But it is irrelevant if I have no desire, or feel know incentive to experience everything a game has to offer. The game has failed to draw me into all of its content.
Couldn't it also be said that those who go on and on attempting to color a game in a negative light, often ignore they haven't seen everything? Point being if they accept that, it might actually give them less ammunition to sling....
I'll be perfectly honest I find GW2 to be a very boring game, I lose interest really fast whenever I give it another spin. That's why I avoid throwing any real critique at it, it's not my thing, yet it obviously has done well, many enjoy it, who am I serving by going any deeper than that?
Post edited by Distopia on
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Actually it just means that you think everyone should play the way that you play. Obviously you like WvW so that build suits your playstyle. A necro with pets is one of the best solo PvE builds which maybe he's playstyle. This isn't an elite raiding game where one build rules them all.
Up to a certain point, once you get into Orr there are far better builds.
Pet master is a build that is easy in the early game but gets harder to play the higher up you get in level. It is not good for stuff like dungeons and fractals, even though a great player could make it work. Then again, a great player can make any build work.
GW2 is very good game, but there is absolutely no reason to play it. No progression. You can reach lvl 80 in 3 days. And then there is absolutely no progression. No new skills , no better equipment...nothing - Only thing you can continue playing for is cosmetic items
So the only reason you play MMOs is progress?
I play games because it's fun, not because the game bribes me.
As for no better equipment that is just rubbish. You might get lvled up to 80 when you enter WvW but beating someone in ascended gear with green lvl 31 rubbish takes extreme skill.
One of the reasons I play mmoRPGs is progress. From pnp to crpgs character progression was always one on the core pillars of the genre.
There is merit to games with little to no progression, I mean people are playing and enjoying CounterStrike and the likes but as you can see in the recent years even games like CoD and Battlefield introduced rpg elements (levels, unlocks, perks) simply because people like them. They give a sense of accomplishment, a target to "work" towards, a carrot on a stick if you like. Ultimately, they make people come back.
It's perfectly ok to like a MMO game with minimal progression like GW2, but personally I prefer MMORPGs.
Nope, character progression was never pillar, it was side dish.
Only MMOs tried to define RPG as character progression because they werent RPGs and had nothing else but character progression.
MMOs were NEVER RPGs.
Ummm since D&D progression was a pillar of RPGs. GW2 is the only mmo(rpg) that believes it's a bad thing... I love character development, not just gear, but skills and combinations of skills. This has been a thing since rpgs were rpgs man.
If someone feels like they have experienced everything a game has to offer, then these impressions are perfectly valid. One can argue that they haven't seen everything, because they haven't earned A and B, or visited X and Y, until they are blue in the face; but the fact clearly is that the game is not providing enough incentive or basic fun for them to want to experience these elements. Either the game is not for them, or there is a fault in the games fundamental design that is not providing that feeling of progression that some gamers need in order to have fun playing.
I see a lot of arguments here telling people they haven't experienced everything a game has to offer. It seems to be the standard fanboy response. But it is irrelevant if I have no desire, or feel know incentive to experience everything a game has to offer. The game has failed to draw me into all of its content.
Couldn't it also be said that those who go and on attempting to color a game in a negative light, often ignore they haven't seen everything? Point being if they accept that, it might actually give them less ammunition to sling....
I'll be perfectly honest I find GW2 to be a very boring game, I lose interest really fast whenever I give it another spin. That's why I avoid throwing any real critique at it, it's not my thing, yet it obviously has done well, many enjoy it, who am I serving by going any deeper than that?
The OP was specifically about someone feeling that they have completed everything at a low level; and many of the responses were people identifying specifically what he hasn't completed and suggesting that his feelings towards the game are, therefore, invalid. I am addressing that point, not critiquing the game.
If someone feels like they have experienced everything a game has to offer, then these impressions are perfectly valid. One can argue that they haven't seen everything, because they haven't earned A and B, or visited X and Y, until they are blue in the face; but the fact clearly is that the game is not providing enough incentive or basic fun for them to want to experience these elements. Either the game is not for them, or there is a fault in the games fundamental design that is not providing that feeling of progression that some gamers need in order to have fun playing.
I see a lot of arguments here telling people they haven't experienced everything a game has to offer. It seems to be the standard fanboy response. But it is irrelevant if I have no desire, or feel no incentive to experience everything a game has to offer. The game has failed to draw me into all of its content.
As long as you tried a few dungeons then sure, fractals are harder but if you don't like dungeons you wont like them either.
A bit open world, a shot at WvW or regular PvP and a few dungeons, if none of that works for you you should play something else. If you like dungeons in Wow but never bothered with them here the argument that you havn't experienced all the game have to offer would be valid.
If someone feels like they have experienced everything a game has to offer, then these impressions are perfectly valid. One can argue that they haven't seen everything, because they haven't earned A and B, or visited X and Y, until they are blue in the face; but the fact clearly is that the game is not providing enough incentive or basic fun for them to want to experience these elements. Either the game is not for them, or there is a fault in the games fundamental design that is not providing that feeling of progression that some gamers need in order to have fun playing.
I see a lot of arguments here telling people they haven't experienced everything a game has to offer. It seems to be the standard fanboy response. But it is irrelevant if I have no desire, or feel know incentive to experience everything a game has to offer. The game has failed to draw me into all of its content.
Couldn't it also be said that those who go and on attempting to color a game in a negative light, often ignore they haven't seen everything? Point being if they accept that, it might actually give them less ammunition to sling....
I'll be perfectly honest I find GW2 to be a very boring game, I lose interest really fast whenever I give it another spin. That's why I avoid throwing any real critique at it, it's not my thing, yet it obviously has done well, many enjoy it, who am I serving by going any deeper than that?
The OP was specifically about someone feeling that they have completed everything at a low level; and many of the responses were people identifying specifically what he hasn't completed and suggesting that his feelings towards the game are, therefore, invalid. I am addressing that point, not critiquing the game.
I didn't say you were, nor did I identify you as a culprit. I was addressing your point about "fanboi" rebuttals. When someone says I've done it all, and someone else says no you haven't... that's not the latter being a fanboi...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If someone feels like they have experienced everything a game has to offer, then these impressions are perfectly valid. One can argue that they haven't seen everything, because they haven't earned A and B, or visited X and Y, until they are blue in the face; but the fact clearly is that the game is not providing enough incentive or basic fun for them to want to experience these elements. Either the game is not for them, or there is a fault in the games fundamental design that is not providing that feeling of progression that some gamers need in order to have fun playing.
I see a lot of arguments here telling people they haven't experienced everything a game has to offer. It seems to be the standard fanboy response. But it is irrelevant if I have no desire, or feel no incentive to experience everything a game has to offer. The game has failed to draw me into all of its content.
As long as you tried a few dungeons then sure, fractals are harder but if you don't like dungeons you wont like them either.
A bit open world, a shot at WvW or regular PvP and a few dungeons, if none of that works for you you should play something else. If you like dungeons in Wow but never bothered with them here the argument that you havn't experienced all the game have to offer would be valid.
You have just drawn an arbitrary line in the sand that suits your outlook. But that is irrelevant, because I am not arguing whether or not he HAS seen everything, I am arguing that him feeling like he has seen everything is not invalidated by the fact people can identify specific elements he has not seen.
That said, I think people often over-complicate mmos on this site. You can get a very good feel for most of them after a few hours, and no you do not have to have visited every corner of the map to know what the game entails.
I think it comes down to this, some people only care about what makes them more powerful type of progression some people love getting new tools to work with and unlocking stuff for new challenges and doing new things, others like a mix of both.
If someone feels like they have experienced everything a game has to offer, then these impressions are perfectly valid. One can argue that they haven't seen everything, because they haven't earned A and B, or visited X and Y, until they are blue in the face; but the fact clearly is that the game is not providing enough incentive or basic fun for them to want to experience these elements. Either the game is not for them, or there is a fault in the games fundamental design that is not providing that feeling of progression that some gamers need in order to have fun playing.
I see a lot of arguments here telling people they haven't experienced everything a game has to offer. It seems to be the standard fanboy response. But it is irrelevant if I have no desire, or feel know incentive to experience everything a game has to offer. The game has failed to draw me into all of its content.
Couldn't it also be said that those who go and on attempting to color a game in a negative light, often ignore they haven't seen everything? Point being if they accept that, it might actually give them less ammunition to sling....
I'll be perfectly honest I find GW2 to be a very boring game, I lose interest really fast whenever I give it another spin. That's why I avoid throwing any real critique at it, it's not my thing, yet it obviously has done well, many enjoy it, who am I serving by going any deeper than that?
The OP was specifically about someone feeling that they have completed everything at a low level; and many of the responses were people identifying specifically what he hasn't completed and suggesting that his feelings towards the game are, therefore, invalid. I am addressing that point, not critiquing the game.
The OP asked:
"So, am I missing something? Do you continue to unlock new skill upgrades and bonuses to benefit a spec past unlocking the skills for it (which can be done by level 31)?"
The answer is yes, he is missing something, specifically that you gain more specs and further traits.
Sometimes people talk about subjective stuff and you cannot dismiss subjective opinions. Some will share the same opinions, others will agree with some aspects and disagree with others, others will be of the opposite opinion.
But when it is something objective, then you can prove or disprove it.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Comments
No worries, another fifth bucks buys you a new brick wall!
The fotm ppl that instant kick ranger/engi becuse useless proffessions are useless .../sigh
You could try have some fun in the game?
I can't see why so many players are really fanatically obsessed about 'progression'.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
From pnp to crpgs character progression was always one on the core pillars of the genre.
There is merit to games with little to no progression, I mean people are playing and enjoying CounterStrike and the likes but as you can see in the recent years even games like CoD and Battlefield introduced rpg elements (levels, unlocks, perks) simply because people like them. They give a sense of accomplishment, a target to "work" towards, a carrot on a stick if you like. Ultimately, they make people come back.
It's perfectly ok to like a MMO game with minimal progression like GW2, but personally I prefer MMORPGs.
Sorry, but, ummm, no.
Only MMOs tried to define RPG as character progression because they werent RPGs and had nothing else but character progression.
MMOs were NEVER RPGs.
I'm hoping raids will open up non zerker, non stacking tactics in gw2. I am waiting to buy hot until I see how they play out. If they turn out like dungeons, then GW2 truly will have failed at the non-trinity attempt at pve.
here's to hoping.
ps- still waiting for a warrior power sword build... I swing my sword again...
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
You get tons more unlocks.. and another 2 specializations. There is so much to do in GW2 it's untrue... I've put in over 600 hours and I haven't even got 100% map completion.. because other things just pull away from finishing it all the time. Even after all is said and done.. it's a great game for setting your own progression goals. E.G. collection all the mace weapon skins.. getting all the skins and unlocks from the gem store (without spending real money).. rank up PvP.. WvW...
And.. unless you're covered head to toe in ascended armour, you are no where near done.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I see a lot of arguments here telling people they haven't experienced everything a game has to offer. It seems to be the standard fanboy response. But it is irrelevant if I have no desire, or feel no incentive to experience everything a game has to offer. The game has failed to draw me into all of its content.
I'll be perfectly honest I find GW2 to be a very boring game, I lose interest really fast whenever I give it another spin. That's why I avoid throwing any real critique at it, it's not my thing, yet it obviously has done well, many enjoy it, who am I serving by going any deeper than that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Pet master is a build that is easy in the early game but gets harder to play the higher up you get in level. It is not good for stuff like dungeons and fractals, even though a great player could make it work. Then again, a great player can make any build work.
edit- mmos were never rpgs? wut? O.o
As long as you tried a few dungeons then sure, fractals are harder but if you don't like dungeons you wont like them either.
A bit open world, a shot at WvW or regular PvP and a few dungeons, if none of that works for you you should play something else. If you like dungeons in Wow but never bothered with them here the argument that you havn't experienced all the game have to offer would be valid.
Fractals to me looked like a race to reach the end and go deeper.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That said, I think people often over-complicate mmos on this site. You can get a very good feel for most of them after a few hours, and no you do not have to have visited every corner of the map to know what the game entails.
"So, am I missing something? Do you continue to unlock new skill upgrades and bonuses to benefit a spec past unlocking the skills for it (which can be done by level 31)?"
The answer is yes, he is missing something, specifically that you gain more specs and further traits.
Sometimes people talk about subjective stuff and you cannot dismiss subjective opinions. Some will share the same opinions, others will agree with some aspects and disagree with others, others will be of the opposite opinion.
But when it is something objective, then you can prove or disprove it.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders