Chris roberts can do whatever he wants, this is his money.
If he wanted he could cease production of the game tomorow and he would not have to give a single cent back, whatever he does is of his own choice. So calm down with the demands.
If you GAVE money to him for his project then you should of known what you were giving to, there are no guarantees at all with this system.
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all
rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not
or cannot fulfill. (This
is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to
create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their
projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that
backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel
that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project
and fulfill.
Pretty sure that shows you are totally wrong. Like I said Roberts has to be scared, legally backers can go after everything he owns. That is a legal contract between Roberts and backers. Would you like to rephrase the comment you just made?
And who says these terms can be held in court? last time i check kickstarter worked as a funding with no strings attached. I doubt anyone would be able to sue him if he failed. One can try though.
Chris roberts can do whatever he wants, this is his money.
If he wanted he could cease production of the game tomorow and he would not have to give a single cent back, whatever he does is of his own choice. So calm down with the demands.
If you GAVE money to him for his project then you should of known what you were giving to, there are no guarantees at all with this system.
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all
rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not
or cannot fulfill. (This
is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to
create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their
projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that
backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel
that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project
and fulfill.
Pretty sure that shows you are totally wrong. Like I said Roberts has to be scared, legally backers can go after everything he owns. That is a legal contract between Roberts and backers. Would you like to rephrase the comment you just made?
And who says these terms can be held in court? last time i check kickstarter worked as a funding with no strings attached. I doubt anyone would be able to sue him if he failed. One can try though.
KICKSTARTER CAMPAIGN ORDERED BY ATTORNEY GENERAL TO PAY FINES, MAKE RESTITUTION
-----------------------
The problem is, this is usually counterproductive due to small amounts of cash and indigent creators meaning the cost/\benefit is usually not worth pursuing.
This is more $$$ than the GDP of many nations and the creator is certainly not indigent.
this ones different though- For a ton of reasons beyond the two I listed above(I'll spare you my thoughts since it would be a fucking book) and this is the one that will set the bar. If SC fails this will be tested and this will no longer be the grey area it currently is.
Chris roberts can do whatever he wants, this is his money.
If he wanted he could cease production of the game tomorow and he would not have to give a single cent back, whatever he does is of his own choice. So calm down with the demands.
If you GAVE money to him for his project then you should of known what you were giving to, there are no guarantees at all with this system.
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all
rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not
or cannot fulfill. (This
is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to
create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their
projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that
backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel
that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project
and fulfill.
Pretty sure that shows you are totally wrong. Like I said Roberts has to be scared, legally backers can go after everything he owns. That is a legal contract between Roberts and backers. Would you like to rephrase the comment you just made?
And who says these terms can be held in court? last time i check kickstarter worked as a funding with no strings attached. I doubt anyone would be able to sue him if he failed. One can try though.
Already legal precedence in regards to kickstarter and fraud. Someone raised 25,000 to make horror themed playing cards and misused the money and was ordered to pay almost 55,000.
I'm still waiting for a successful kick starter game. Luckily I only spent $35 on SC, and maybe played an arena thingy once, never been able to figure out how to get into a ship since then. I haven't touched it in maybe 9 months.
Went in deep witn Pathfinder Online, as well. That at least produced a playable, yet crappy game, but not worth what I put into it.
Wating to see how Crowfall works out. That is my last shot on a kick starter game.
i think I've given up on KS games. Too much wishful thinking, on everyone's part.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
Chris roberts can do whatever he wants, this is his money.
If he wanted he could cease production of the game tomorow and he would not have to give a single cent back, whatever he does is of his own choice. So calm down with the demands.
If you GAVE money to him for his project then you should of known what you were giving to, there are no guarantees at all with this system.
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all
rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not
or cannot fulfill. (This
is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to
create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their
projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that
backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel
that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project
and fulfill.
Pretty sure that shows you are totally wrong. Like I said Roberts has to be scared, legally backers can go after everything he owns. That is a legal contract between Roberts and backers. Would you like to rephrase the comment you just made?
And who says these terms can be held in court? last time i check kickstarter worked as a funding with no strings attached. I doubt anyone would be able to sue him if he failed. One can try though.
Already legal precedence in regards to kickstarter and fraud. Someone raised 25,000 to make horror themed playing cards and misused the money and was ordered to pay almost 55,000.
Well, not really. The guy settled out of court, admitted no guilt, and never paid anything back because there was nothing to left to pay anything back with.
I'm still waiting for a successful kick starter game. Luckily I only spent $35 on SC, and maybe played an arena thingy once, never been able to figure out how to get into a ship since then. I haven't touched it in maybe 9 months.
Went in deep witn Pathfinder Online, as well. That at least produced a playable, yet crappy game, but not worth what I put into it.
Wating to see how Crowfall works out. That is my last shot on a kick starter game.
i think I've given up on KS games. Too much wishful thinking, on everyone's part.
Oh man, there have been some great KS games that exceeded expectation.
POE was freaking fantastic, FTL, Banner saga, that other turn based game that had killer combat but stupid jokes- I could list many. Even games like 7 days to die which are still in EA have delivered an awesome , albeit unfinished game.
But scammers have also come out of the woodwork, folks with no business developing Pac man are getting 6 figures on hype and stretched truth and the fact WE are funding for' profit companies' who have no real risk to themselves is often not a good incentive to get things done. especially when there are zero consequences
Consequences are coming-. they've pushed it too far for too long and the wild west is in need of law. the question is , like most things - Will the "law" end up over-reaching? probably. But something has to give to end this free pass to lie and take money or mishandle money until theres nothing left but a "we tried".
We need consumer protections here - You're right- But at this point its up to the discerning eye to decide whats actually capable of being produced- What is mere hype and what is a total lie.
I've been lucky with my KS purchases and only burned once but for every scam or person who gets in over their head with lies and hype- It hurts valid projects. eventually if things dont change there will be zero consumer confidence and the entire thing will crumble from the weight of the lies used to procure funding.
Accountability is good and should be the standard. Its now needed - Times up for the inmates who've been running this asylum.
I'm still waiting for a successful kick starter game. Luckily I only spent $35 on SC, and maybe played an arena thingy once, never been able to figure out how to get into a ship since then. I haven't touched it in maybe 9 months.
Went in deep witn Pathfinder Online, as well. That at least produced a playable, yet crappy game, but not worth what I put into it.
Wating to see how Crowfall works out. That is my last shot on a kick starter game.
i think I've given up on KS games. Too much wishful thinking, on everyone's part.
Oh man, there have been some great KS games that exceeded expectation.
POE was freaking fantastic, FTL, Banner saga, that other turn based game that had killer combat but stupid jokes- I could list many. Even games like 7 days to die which are still in EA have delivered an awesome , albeit unfinished game.
But scammers have also come out of the woodwork, folks with no business developing Pac man are getting 6 figures on hype and stretched truth and the fact WE are funding for' profit companies' who have no real risk to themselves is often not a good incentive to get things done. especially when there are zero consequences
Consequences are coming-. they've pushed it too far for too long and the wild west is in need of law. the question is , like most things - Will the "law" end up over-reaching? probably. But something has to give to end this free pass to lie and take money.
We need consumer protections here - You're right- But at this point its up to the discerning eye to decide whats actually capable of being produced- What is mere hype and what is a total lie.
I've been lucky with my KS purchases and only burned once but for every scam or person who gets in over their head with lies and hype- It hurts valid projects. eventually if things dont change there will be zero consumer confidence and the entire thing will crumble from the weight of the lies used to procure funding.
Don't agree. Kickstarter allows people to contribute towards an idea or common goal. In short, it's a modern form of patronage and therefore consumer protections aren't applicable.
Chris roberts can do whatever he wants, this is his money.
If he wanted he could cease production of the game tomorow and he would not have to give a single cent back, whatever he does is of his own choice. So calm down with the demands.
If you GAVE money to him for his project then you should of known what you were giving to, there are no guarantees at all with this system.
What an idiotic thing to say. If CR closed up shop tomorrow he'd have so many lawsuits thrown his way he'd have to move to Russia to hide. He is contractually obligated to deliver a functional game. If he doesn't he's either going to end up in jail for fraud (unlikely) or broke for the rest of his life (more likely).
How do you sue if there is no more money ? They could just spend all the money, say they tried and failed and move on. Look at Greedmonger.
You go after everything he owns. Which is why opening a company and putting his brother in charge of it is a bad thing for the backers. But then there is international laws which could really open a can of worms for him.
I am not sure you are even old enough to Vote at this point.....
You need to brush up on how the world works. Company goes down files for Bankruptcy, you sue. You are only entitled to sue the company not the people running it. The only time you can go after the Exec's or owners if you can find them Liable in Civil court, which is very difficult to do. Please see how Trump has kept his fortune after running 3 companies into the ground.
The ONLY reason OJ had to pay out of his pocket and liquidate assets was that in Civil Court he (HIMSELF no one else) was found Liable for the Deaths of Ron Goldman and Nicole Simpson.
I'm still waiting for a successful kick starter game. Luckily I only spent $35 on SC, and maybe played an arena thingy once, never been able to figure out how to get into a ship since then. I haven't touched it in maybe 9 months.
Went in deep witn Pathfinder Online, as well. That at least produced a playable, yet crappy game, but not worth what I put into it.
Wating to see how Crowfall works out. That is my last shot on a kick starter game.
i think I've given up on KS games. Too much wishful thinking, on everyone's part.
Oh man, there have been some great KS games that exceeded expectation.
POE was freaking fantastic, FTL, Banner saga, that other turn based game that had killer combat but stupid jokes- I could list many. Even games like 7 days to die which are still in EA have delivered an awesome , albeit unfinished game.
But scammers have also come out of the woodwork, folks with no business developing Pac man are getting 6 figures on hype and stretched truth and the fact WE are funding for' profit companies' who have no real risk to themselves is often not a good incentive to get things done. especially when there are zero consequences
Consequences are coming-. they've pushed it too far for too long and the wild west is in need of law. the question is , like most things - Will the "law" end up over-reaching? probably. But something has to give to end this free pass to lie and take money.
We need consumer protections here - You're right- But at this point its up to the discerning eye to decide whats actually capable of being produced- What is mere hype and what is a total lie.
I've been lucky with my KS purchases and only burned once but for every scam or person who gets in over their head with lies and hype- It hurts valid projects. eventually if things dont change there will be zero consumer confidence and the entire thing will crumble from the weight of the lies used to procure funding.
Don't agree. Kickstarter allows people to contribute towards an idea or common goal. In short, it's a modern form of patronage and therefore consumer protections aren't applicable.
The Government seems to disagree with your disagreement as the links posted above will show -
I agree we are still in uncharted territory but we are reaching the end of this uncertainty.
If I donated to a real non profit (where I could actually write that $$ off on my taxes) and they failed any obligation they set forth (PBS doesnt send me my coffee mug for the $100 pledge or uses the money for someones side project) I have legal protections.
Why do the 'for profit' companies have more leeway than a non profit? Why do non profits have legal oversight for the donations (i.e.patronage) they procure but 'for profit' companies can take 100 million for a 'for profit' venture where they make capital which personally enriches themselves and never have to answer for anything? And with the scandals in non profits alone, they are held to far higher standards in terms of accountability.
Why can Star citizen get away with using their donations with no strings while enriching themselves and yet a non profit scholarship program that benefits society cannot?
these are questions that we will soon have the answer to, I think.
EDIT- I recommend looking into 501(c3)'s and seeing what kinds of insane oversight they face.
I'm still waiting for a successful kick starter game. Luckily I only spent $35 on SC, and maybe played an arena thingy once, never been able to figure out how to get into a ship since then. I haven't touched it in maybe 9 months.
Went in deep witn Pathfinder Online, as well. That at least produced a playable, yet crappy game, but not worth what I put into it.
Wating to see how Crowfall works out. That is my last shot on a kick starter game.
i think I've given up on KS games. Too much wishful thinking, on everyone's part.
Oh man, there have been some great KS games that exceeded expectation.
POE was freaking fantastic, FTL, Banner saga, that other turn based game that had killer combat but stupid jokes- I could list many. Even games like 7 days to die which are still in EA have delivered an awesome , albeit unfinished game.
But scammers have also come out of the woodwork, folks with no business developing Pac man are getting 6 figures on hype and stretched truth and the fact WE are funding for' profit companies' who have no real risk to themselves is often not a good incentive to get things done. especially when there are zero consequences
Consequences are coming-. they've pushed it too far for too long and the wild west is in need of law. the question is , like most things - Will the "law" end up over-reaching? probably. But something has to give to end this free pass to lie and take money.
We need consumer protections here - You're right- But at this point its up to the discerning eye to decide whats actually capable of being produced- What is mere hype and what is a total lie.
I've been lucky with my KS purchases and only burned once but for every scam or person who gets in over their head with lies and hype- It hurts valid projects. eventually if things dont change there will be zero consumer confidence and the entire thing will crumble from the weight of the lies used to procure funding.
Don't agree. Kickstarter allows people to contribute towards an idea or common goal. In short, it's a modern form of patronage and therefore consumer protections aren't applicable.
The Government seems to disagree with your disagreement as the links posted above will show -
I agree we are still in uncharted territory but we are reaching the end of this uncertainty.
If I donated to a real non profit (where I could actually write that $$ off on my taxes) and they failed any obligation they set forth (PBS doesnt send me my coffee mug for the $100 pledge or uses the money for someones side project) I have legal protections.
Why do the 'for profit' companies have more leeway than a non profit? Why do non profits have legal oversight for the donations (i.e.patronage) they procure but 'for profit' companies can take 100 million for a 'for profit' venture where they make capital which personally enriches themselves and never have to answer for anything? And with the scandals in non profits alone, they are held to far higher standards in terms of accountability.
Why can Star citizen get away with using their donations with no strings while a nbon profit scholarship program that benefits society cannot?
these are questions that we will soon have the answer to, I think.
Because non-profits have laws to follow. The patronage system essentially has no laws surrounding it.
You have no legal protections as a patron unless you enter into some legal deal. If you want to be someone's sugar daddy and it doesn't work out, that's your fault with no applicable legal protections.
And, again, the 'precedence' mentioned above was settled out of court with no admission of guilt and not a penny paid back.
I'm still waiting for a successful kick starter game. Luckily I only spent $35 on SC, and maybe played an arena thingy once, never been able to figure out how to get into a ship since then. I haven't touched it in maybe 9 months.
Went in deep witn Pathfinder Online, as well. That at least produced a playable, yet crappy game, but not worth what I put into it.
Wating to see how Crowfall works out. That is my last shot on a kick starter game.
i think I've given up on KS games. Too much wishful thinking, on everyone's part.
Oh man, there have been some great KS games that exceeded expectation.
POE was freaking fantastic, FTL, Banner saga, that other turn based game that had killer combat but stupid jokes- I could list many. Even games like 7 days to die which are still in EA have delivered an awesome , albeit unfinished game.
But scammers have also come out of the woodwork, folks with no business developing Pac man are getting 6 figures on hype and stretched truth and the fact WE are funding for' profit companies' who have no real risk to themselves is often not a good incentive to get things done. especially when there are zero consequences
Consequences are coming-. they've pushed it too far for too long and the wild west is in need of law. the question is , like most things - Will the "law" end up over-reaching? probably. But something has to give to end this free pass to lie and take money.
We need consumer protections here - You're right- But at this point its up to the discerning eye to decide whats actually capable of being produced- What is mere hype and what is a total lie.
I've been lucky with my KS purchases and only burned once but for every scam or person who gets in over their head with lies and hype- It hurts valid projects. eventually if things dont change there will be zero consumer confidence and the entire thing will crumble from the weight of the lies used to procure funding.
Don't agree. Kickstarter allows people to contribute towards an idea or common goal. In short, it's a modern form of patronage and therefore consumer protections aren't applicable.
The Government seems to disagree with your disagreement as the links posted above will show -
I agree we are still in uncharted territory but we are reaching the end of this uncertainty.
If I donated to a real non profit (where I could actually write that $$ off on my taxes) and they failed any obligation they set forth (PBS doesnt send me my coffee mug for the $100 pledge or uses the money for someones side project) I have legal protections.
Why do the 'for profit' companies have more leeway than a non profit? Why do non profits have legal oversight for the donations (i.e.patronage) they procure but 'for profit' companies can take 100 million for a 'for profit' venture where they make capital which personally enriches themselves and never have to answer for anything? And with the scandals in non profits alone, they are held to far higher standards in terms of accountability.
Why can Star citizen get away with using their donations with no strings while enriching themselves and yet a non profit scholarship program that benefits society cannot?
these are questions that we will soon have the answer to, I think.
That's great and all, meanwhile people are able to log in and play modules of the game already. By definition they have already delivered. It's on them to continue and deliver something we actually want, that's worth the money, but guess what they wouldn't be legally obligated to deliver much more than they have. People need to wake up and figure out that they donated money to a project, you didn't buy company stock.
Also about the whole Chris Roberts hiring family, the family members he has hired apart from his wife, all have much more positive industry credentials than anyone crying about the management of the company.
I'm still waiting for a successful kick starter game. Luckily I only spent $35 on SC, and maybe played an arena thingy once, never been able to figure out how to get into a ship since then. I haven't touched it in maybe 9 months.
Went in deep witn Pathfinder Online, as well. That at least produced a playable, yet crappy game, but not worth what I put into it.
Wating to see how Crowfall works out. That is my last shot on a kick starter game.
i think I've given up on KS games. Too much wishful thinking, on everyone's part.
Oh man, there have been some great KS games that exceeded expectation.
POE was freaking fantastic, FTL, Banner saga, that other turn based game that had killer combat but stupid jokes- I could list many. Even games like 7 days to die which are still in EA have delivered an awesome , albeit unfinished game.
But scammers have also come out of the woodwork, folks with no business developing Pac man are getting 6 figures on hype and stretched truth and the fact WE are funding for' profit companies' who have no real risk to themselves is often not a good incentive to get things done. especially when there are zero consequences
Consequences are coming-. they've pushed it too far for too long and the wild west is in need of law. the question is , like most things - Will the "law" end up over-reaching? probably. But something has to give to end this free pass to lie and take money.
We need consumer protections here - You're right- But at this point its up to the discerning eye to decide whats actually capable of being produced- What is mere hype and what is a total lie.
I've been lucky with my KS purchases and only burned once but for every scam or person who gets in over their head with lies and hype- It hurts valid projects. eventually if things dont change there will be zero consumer confidence and the entire thing will crumble from the weight of the lies used to procure funding.
Don't agree. Kickstarter allows people to contribute towards an idea or common goal. In short, it's a modern form of patronage and therefore consumer protections aren't applicable.
The Government seems to disagree with your disagreement as the links posted above will show -
I agree we are still in uncharted territory but we are reaching the end of this uncertainty.
If I donated to a real non profit (where I could actually write that $$ off on my taxes) and they failed any obligation they set forth (PBS doesnt send me my coffee mug for the $100 pledge or uses the money for someones side project) I have legal protections.
Why do the 'for profit' companies have more leeway than a non profit? Why do non profits have legal oversight for the donations (i.e.patronage) they procure but 'for profit' companies can take 100 million for a 'for profit' venture where they make capital which personally enriches themselves and never have to answer for anything? And with the scandals in non profits alone, they are held to far higher standards in terms of accountability.
Why can Star citizen get away with using their donations with no strings while a nbon profit scholarship program that benefits society cannot?
these are questions that we will soon have the answer to, I think.
Because non-profits have laws to follow. The patronage system essentially has no laws surrounding it.
You have no legal protections as a patron unless you enter into some legal deal. If you want to be someone's sugar daddy and it doesn't work out, that's your fault with no applicable legal protections.
And, again, the 'precedence' mentioned above was settled out of court with no admission of guilt and not a penny paid back.
Everyone has laws to follow.
- Again, we will see.
I'm not a lawyer and I doubt you are and even lawyers at this point will find reason to disagree.
-mark my words- this will be tested. if SC flops get ready...
I would also add we have nobody but ourselves to blame. fanboys produce mediocrity and excuse the worst behavior, Journalists do NOT do their jobs in this industry, when someone is scammed or loses money they generally shrug their shoulders and walk away.
Thats what allowed this to get to this point.
Fanboys need a reality check (not just about SC but in the total defense of everything and willful blindness, if they are emotionally attached to a game)
Journalists need to get off their collective assess and start calling a spade a spade.
The Public needs to start demanding answers.
We bred this situation and when the law clamps down too hard , its because we didnt police ourselves.
I'm still waiting for a successful kick starter game. Luckily I only spent $35 on SC, and maybe played an arena thingy once, never been able to figure out how to get into a ship since then. I haven't touched it in maybe 9 months.
Went in deep witn Pathfinder Online, as well. That at least produced a playable, yet crappy game, but not worth what I put into it.
Wating to see how Crowfall works out. That is my last shot on a kick starter game.
i think I've given up on KS games. Too much wishful thinking, on everyone's part.
Oh man, there have been some great KS games that exceeded expectation.
POE was freaking fantastic, FTL, Banner saga, that other turn based game that had killer combat but stupid jokes- I could list many. Even games like 7 days to die which are still in EA have delivered an awesome , albeit unfinished game.
But scammers have also come out of the woodwork, folks with no business developing Pac man are getting 6 figures on hype and stretched truth and the fact WE are funding for' profit companies' who have no real risk to themselves is often not a good incentive to get things done. especially when there are zero consequences
Consequences are coming-. they've pushed it too far for too long and the wild west is in need of law. the question is , like most things - Will the "law" end up over-reaching? probably. But something has to give to end this free pass to lie and take money.
We need consumer protections here - You're right- But at this point its up to the discerning eye to decide whats actually capable of being produced- What is mere hype and what is a total lie.
I've been lucky with my KS purchases and only burned once but for every scam or person who gets in over their head with lies and hype- It hurts valid projects. eventually if things dont change there will be zero consumer confidence and the entire thing will crumble from the weight of the lies used to procure funding.
Don't agree. Kickstarter allows people to contribute towards an idea or common goal. In short, it's a modern form of patronage and therefore consumer protections aren't applicable.
The Government seems to disagree with your disagreement as the links posted above will show -
I agree we are still in uncharted territory but we are reaching the end of this uncertainty.
If I donated to a real non profit (where I could actually write that $$ off on my taxes) and they failed any obligation they set forth (PBS doesnt send me my coffee mug for the $100 pledge or uses the money for someones side project) I have legal protections.
Why do the 'for profit' companies have more leeway than a non profit? Why do non profits have legal oversight for the donations (i.e.patronage) they procure but 'for profit' companies can take 100 million for a 'for profit' venture where they make capital which personally enriches themselves and never have to answer for anything? And with the scandals in non profits alone, they are held to far higher standards in terms of accountability.
Why can Star citizen get away with using their donations with no strings while a nbon profit scholarship program that benefits society cannot?
these are questions that we will soon have the answer to, I think.
Because non-profits have laws to follow. The patronage system essentially has no laws surrounding it.
You have no legal protections as a patron unless you enter into some legal deal. If you want to be someone's sugar daddy and it doesn't work out, that's your fault with no applicable legal protections.
And, again, the 'precedence' mentioned above was settled out of court with no admission of guilt and not a penny paid back.
Everyone has laws to follow.
- Again, we will see.
I'm not a lawyer and I doubt you are and even lawyers at this point will find reason to disagree.
-mark my words- this will be tested. if SC flops get ready...
I would also add we have nobody but ourselves to blame. fanboys produce mediocrity and excuse the worst behavior, Journalists do NOT do their jobs in this industry, when someone is scammed or loses money they generally shrug their shoulders and walk away.
Thats what allowed this to get to this point.
Fanboys need a reality check (not just about SC but in the total defense of everything and willful blindness, if they are emotionally attached to a game)
Journalists need to get off their collective assess and start calling a spade a spade.
The Public needs to start demanding answers.
We bred this situation and when the law clamps down too hard , its because we didnt police ourselves.
Everyone should want accountability. period.
Like someone already posted, you can actually already play Star Citizen. So they already met any minimum standard for a Kickstarter project.
And people need to realize Kickstarter isn't a store; it's a place to give patronage to ideas and potential products.
Cool- Link please.... That game didnt even seem to need much $$ to make . IMAGINE what we will get with 100 Million. Wow...
Anyhow, I understand some people think accountability is horrible if they are emotionally invested to a company that they 100% know breathes truth and justice.
History shows that any time we have zero accountability there are fantastic results.
hell, when we have accountability we find fraud everywhere- So it must be accountability that is the catylist for fraud. No accountability = No fraud. Brilliant.
Cool- Link please.... That game didnt even seem to need much $$ to make . IMAGINE what we will get with 100 Million. Wow...
Anyhow, I understand some people think accountability is horrible if they are emotionally invested to a company that they 100% know breathes truth and justice.
History shows that any time we have zero accountability there are fantastic results.
hell, when we have accountability we find fraud everywhere- So it must be accountability that is the catylist for fraud. No accountability = No fraud. Brilliant.
Anyhow- I reiterate. We will see....
The term 'buyer beware' comes to mind. Again, there is no 'accountability' when it comes to being a patron nor is there any sort of entitlement involved.
People need to take the time to realize what patronizing means.
Buyer beware exists everywhere in life- But the buyer is slave to the information he has- When that information proves to be false (often intentionally so-) and provided by the seller who aims to gain due to false information and/or promises are broken- its no longer buyer beware.
Accountability my friend- Is of benefit to everyone except those with something to hide.
I cannot for the life of me understand anyone who is against holding people accountable/. This causes entitlement in society and business. In this case- dev entitlement. This dev entitlement has gotten out of hand.
But go ahead- keep defending. It matters not. Time will tell and anyone who has studied any sort of history or business or law knows that having zero accountability is a recipe for the worst behavior imaginable. it gives absolute power- And absolute power corrupts absolutely.
This is pointless back and forth.
What do you think about the statement that laying people off isnt really ;laying anyone off its- "Streamlining"? Corporate doublespeak or just a regular joe with a dream trying to make a hell of a game and being totally on the up and upo with everyone? Especially the timing of a $450 ship sale coming soon- making sure we all know that things are goong perfect and firings arent really lay offs.
Buyer beware exists everywhere in life- But the buyer is slave to the information he has- When that information proves to be false (often intentionally so-) and provided by the seller who aims to gain due to false information and/or promises are broken- its no longer buyer beware.
Accountability my friend- Is of benefit to everyone except those with something to hide.
I cannot for the life of me understand anyone who is against holding people accountable/. This causes entitlement in society and business. In this case- dev entitlement. This dev entitlement has gotten out of hand.
But go ahead- keep defending. It matters not. Time will tell and anyone who has studied any sort of history or business or law knows that having zero accountability is a recipe for the worst behavior imaginable. it gives absolute power- And absolute power corrupts absolutely.
This is pointless back and forth.
What do you think about the statement that laying people off isnt really ;laying anyone off its- "Streamlining"? Corporate doublespeak or just a regular joe with a dream trying to make a hell of a game and being totally on the up and upo with everyone? Especially the timing of a $450 ship sale coming soon- making sure we all know that things are goong perfect and firings arent really lay offs.
I'm not 'defending' anything but instead am pointing out what patronage is.
If you give financial assistance to an artist and it turns out they can only draw stick figures...jokes on you!
Again, read what Kickstarter actually is...a patronage system. If you feel entitled to more and it doesn't work out....jokes on you!
This happened before when Eric Peterson and some other people were let go like a year or two ago.
People love to talk shit about Star Citizen, it's what's cool right now. I'll do my shit-talking if it goes belly-up , but until then it's all just high school drama.
And people saying unverified stuff is "truth" are the real shills here. You get evidence to support a claim, I'll join you in the detraction of this game. Otherwise, its just drama and games on forums, and it doesn't really affect anything in reality.
And no, firing peeps doesn't mean anything, even if it were 50 people. They've got like 300 people working on this game. Tell me when they fire 100-200 of them and its verified. Then I'll raise an eyebrow or two.
I feel sorry for the indie game devs that try to use kickstarter if SC ends up falling flat on its face. No one is going to give them money.
Other indies already ruined it for them. All of the successfully Kickstarter funded MMOs that have been subsequently canceled were indies.
If that were true would SC have raised as much?
I think not.
This is the litmus test.
SC only raised about 3% of their total using Kickstarter. The rest was via their website.
Again, what makes it hard for any MMO to use Kickstarter now are the other indie MMOs that were successfully funded and then canceled.
Star Citizen had a single player campaign, which people were willing to back. The other MMO's on kickstarter were never hugely successful, not even the first one ever attempted. Pretty sure it's because of the pricing structure of the MMO and the competition. Most people figure that an MMO is going to be F2P etc, so whats the benefit of them "buying" it on kickstarter? What perks do they get? And developers aren't allowed to give "free months" for the subscription-based MMO's, either. So when people pledge for an MMO on kickstarter, they are really just donating for the game. Their probably not expecting much value out of it.
Also, most people know that a typical MMO is 15+ mil to make. When companies ask for like 500k on kickstarter, people become pretty skeptical and wonder where the rest of the money is gonna come from.
Comments
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140504/07153727119/washington-state-files-first-consumer-protection-lawsuit-against-kickstarter-project-that-failed-to-deliver.shtml
http://massivelyop.com/2015/09/14/kickstarter-campaign-ordered-by-attorney-general-to-pay-fines-make-restitution/
KICKSTARTER CAMPAIGN ORDERED BY ATTORNEY GENERAL TO PAY FINES, MAKE RESTITUTION
-----------------------The problem is, this is usually counterproductive due to small amounts of cash and indigent creators meaning the cost/\benefit is usually not worth pursuing.
This is more $$$ than the GDP of many nations and the creator is certainly not indigent.
this ones different though- For a ton of reasons beyond the two I listed above(I'll spare you my thoughts since it would be a fucking book) and this is the one that will set the bar. If SC fails this will be tested and this will no longer be the grey area it currently is.
Already legal precedence in regards to kickstarter and fraud. Someone raised 25,000 to make horror themed playing cards and misused the money and was ordered to pay almost 55,000.
Went in deep witn Pathfinder Online, as well. That at least produced a playable, yet crappy game, but not worth what I put into it.
Wating to see how Crowfall works out. That is my last shot on a kick starter game.
i think I've given up on KS games. Too much wishful thinking, on everyone's part.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
POE was freaking fantastic, FTL, Banner saga, that other turn based game that had killer combat but stupid jokes- I could list many. Even games like 7 days to die which are still in EA have delivered an awesome , albeit unfinished game.
But scammers have also come out of the woodwork, folks with no business developing Pac man are getting 6 figures on hype and stretched truth and the fact WE are funding for' profit companies' who have no real risk to themselves is often not a good incentive to get things done. especially when there are zero consequences
Consequences are coming-. they've pushed it too far for too long and the wild west is in need of law. the question is , like most things - Will the "law" end up over-reaching? probably. But something has to give to end this free pass to lie and take money or mishandle money until theres nothing left but a "we tried".
We need consumer protections here - You're right- But at this point its up to the discerning eye to decide whats actually capable of being produced- What is mere hype and what is a total lie.
I've been lucky with my KS purchases and only burned once but for every scam or person who gets in over their head with lies and hype- It hurts valid projects. eventually if things dont change there will be zero consumer confidence and the entire thing will crumble from the weight of the lies used to procure funding.
Accountability is good and should be the standard. Its now needed - Times up for the inmates who've been running this asylum.
You need to brush up on how the world works. Company goes down files for Bankruptcy, you sue. You are only entitled to sue the company not the people running it. The only time you can go after the Exec's or owners if you can find them Liable in Civil court, which is very difficult to do. Please see how Trump has kept his fortune after running 3 companies into the ground.
The ONLY reason OJ had to pay out of his pocket and liquidate assets was that in Civil Court he (HIMSELF no one else) was found Liable for the Deaths of Ron Goldman and Nicole Simpson.
http://massivelyop.com/2015/09/14/kickstarter-campaign-ordered-by-attorney-general-to-pay-fines-make-restitution/
KICKSTARTER CAMPAIGN ORDERED BY ATTORNEY GENERAL TO PAY FINES, MAKE RESTITUTION
------------------------------------------------------------------I agree we are still in uncharted territory but we are reaching the end of this uncertainty.
If I donated to a real non profit (where I could actually write that $$ off on my taxes) and they failed any obligation they set forth (PBS doesnt send me my coffee mug for the $100 pledge or uses the money for someones side project) I have legal protections.
Why do the 'for profit' companies have more leeway than a non profit? Why do non profits have legal oversight for the donations (i.e.patronage) they procure but 'for profit' companies can take 100 million for a 'for profit' venture where they make capital which personally enriches themselves and never have to answer for anything? And with the scandals in non profits alone, they are held to far higher standards in terms of accountability.
Why can Star citizen get away with using their donations with no strings while enriching themselves and yet a non profit scholarship program that benefits society cannot?
these are questions that we will soon have the answer to, I think.
EDIT- I recommend looking into 501(c3)'s and seeing what kinds of insane oversight they face.
Again, I will spare you a book.
You have no legal protections as a patron unless you enter into some legal deal. If you want to be someone's sugar daddy and it doesn't work out, that's your fault with no applicable legal protections.
And, again, the 'precedence' mentioned above was settled out of court with no admission of guilt and not a penny paid back.
Also about the whole Chris Roberts hiring family, the family members he has hired apart from his wife, all have much more positive industry credentials than anyone crying about the management of the company.
- Again, we will see.
I'm not a lawyer and I doubt you are and even lawyers at this point will find reason to disagree.
-mark my words- this will be tested. if SC flops get ready...
I would also add we have nobody but ourselves to blame. fanboys produce mediocrity and excuse the worst behavior, Journalists do NOT do their jobs in this industry, when someone is scammed or loses money they generally shrug their shoulders and walk away.
Thats what allowed this to get to this point.
Fanboys need a reality check (not just about SC but in the total defense of everything and willful blindness, if they are emotionally attached to a game)
Journalists need to get off their collective assess and start calling a spade a spade.
The Public needs to start demanding answers.
We bred this situation and when the law clamps down too hard , its because we didnt police ourselves.
Everyone should want accountability. period.
And people need to realize Kickstarter isn't a store; it's a place to give patronage to ideas and potential products.
With these stretch goals?
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals
Cool- Link please.... That game didnt even seem to need much $$ to make . IMAGINE what we will get with 100 Million. Wow...
Anyhow, I understand some people think accountability is horrible if they are emotionally invested to a company that they 100% know breathes truth and justice.
History shows that any time we have zero accountability there are fantastic results.
hell, when we have accountability we find fraud everywhere- So it must be accountability that is the catylist for fraud. No accountability = No fraud. Brilliant.
Anyhow- I reiterate. We will see....
People need to take the time to realize what patronizing means.
Accountability my friend- Is of benefit to everyone except those with something to hide.
I cannot for the life of me understand anyone who is against holding people accountable/. This causes entitlement in society and business. In this case- dev entitlement. This dev entitlement has gotten out of hand.
But go ahead- keep defending. It matters not. Time will tell and anyone who has studied any sort of history or business or law knows that having zero accountability is a recipe for the worst behavior imaginable. it gives absolute power- And absolute power corrupts absolutely.
This is pointless back and forth.
What do you think about the statement that laying people off isnt really ;laying anyone off its- "Streamlining"? Corporate doublespeak or just a regular joe with a dream trying to make a hell of a game and being totally on the up and upo with everyone? Especially the timing of a $450 ship sale coming soon- making sure we all know that things are goong perfect and firings arent really lay offs.
If you give financial assistance to an artist and it turns out they can only draw stick figures...jokes on you!
Again, read what Kickstarter actually is...a patronage system. If you feel entitled to more and it doesn't work out....jokes on you!
People love to talk shit about Star Citizen, it's what's cool right now. I'll do my shit-talking if it goes belly-up , but until then it's all just high school drama.
And people saying unverified stuff is "truth" are the real shills here. You get evidence to support a claim, I'll join you in the detraction of this game. Otherwise, its just drama and games on forums, and it doesn't really affect anything in reality.
And no, firing peeps doesn't mean anything, even if it were 50 people. They've got like 300 people working on this game. Tell me when they fire 100-200 of them and its verified. Then I'll raise an eyebrow or two.
I think not.
This is the litmus test.
Smells like for drama-queen bullshit and whining to me.
Again, what makes it hard for any MMO to use Kickstarter now are the other indie MMOs that were successfully funded and then canceled.