I'm not failing to see anything. You realize that there are International Charities that undergo less scrutinization that what CIG has in these past few months? Do you give money to charity and then ask them to provide you with documentation on exactly where your money was spent? I'm REALLY sorry, but that's just not how it works.
That's literally how it works. I used to do stewardship for donors at our organization in my previous job. Hundreds of hours are dedicated to putting together spending reports for how people's donated money is spent. Now, in cases where someone donated $5 or so, sure, we wouldn't send them an overview without request and if they did ask, we would give them a general idea of how the funds are allocated as tracking such a small amount would be fairly unrealistic. But anyone donating could ask and receive breakdowns of how monies are spent.
The primary purpose of this is, of course, to ensure that funds are being directed in the appropriate manner and not exceeding administration fees as stated in various legal documents. I don't know much about kickstarter agreements, and I very much doubt they have to follow similar procedures that non-profits do when dealing with donations, but if they did, I wouldn't really see it as a bad thing.
"I don't know much about kickstarter agreements, and I very much doubt they have to follow similar procedures that non-profits do when dealing with donations, but if they did, I wouldn't really see it as a bad thing."
... and therein lies the entire purpose for the request for transparency and accountability. If you have nothing to hide, then why the overwhelming resistance to simply provide a bit of transparency and accountability? It just doesn't make sense, and the more they resist the more criminal the perception created. They have to realize that they are only hurting themselves with this stubborn resistance for secrecy.
Look, I am beyond trying to convince the same 5 apologetic Chris Robert's posters who repeatedly appear on these RSI/CiG/SC threads and no others. Family members, friends, and paid advisors have the same right as anyone else to post the defense of their loved ones and clients as anyone else. My contribution to these threads is in hope of advising new posters to this fiasco so that they are well informed before being sold the bill of goods that is the SC fiasco. I am also fearful of the devastating effect that this will have in the MMORPG industry when it is discovered that this company basically conned masses of gamers of nearly 100 million dollars by ultimately releasing a game amounting to nothing more than vaporware for that 100 million dollar contribution from the naive gaming public.
CiG has to know that a bit of transparency and accountability could only result in a water shed of new funding by appreciative potential fund contributors. The fact that they continue to withhold information, knowing full well that the mere act of graciously providing a bit of transparency and accountability would provide the company with a water shed of good will and additional funding, is telling in and of itself.
This entire endeavor has been smoke and mirrors and transparency will probably bring down the entire house of cards.
Heres the thing, that I think- I think the amount of new money coming into CIG has already dried up to a mere trickle and the bulk of their money is coming from Whales who are so emotionally and financially attached to the project that they will take out personal loans or mortgage their homes to buy ships AND prove the naysayers 'wrong'-
I'm not sure all this drama works against CIG since its a rally the masses of fanboys to BUY MOAR SHIPS.
"Fuck you derek Smart- How DARE you question POPE Roberts... Ill show him- I'll BUY MOAR SHIPS."
"Fuck you random poster guy- How dare you want to know if Chris Roberts hired his wife after she lied about her credentials and placed her in a high tier position thats already filled by an outside media company..HOW DARE YOU... Wheres my credit card, ill show this motherfucker"
-Spurred on by viral marketers and a cult mindset. Its honestly a bit creepy.
The worse things begin to look to a discerning eye- the more they feel 'personally attacked" and they rally with their credit cards.
This is like some crazy psy-op .
I think anyone 'on the fence' can see whats happening and will hold off on buying anything until there is a game of some sort - They are playing to the crowd...Funding.
I mean, their fans are over on the forum gushing over a $450 ship and how "reasonable" it is and they thought it would cost a whole lot more- Gotta have that ship... And we are talking about $450 for a jpeg of a concept in a game that doesnt exist and for all intents and purposes doesn't look like it ever will.
The fans are arguing against any kind of transparency as if its a horrible thing- I'm sure they would be throwing fits about no transparency in other area of life- But they wont dare question the hivemind.
If it wasnt for the paid adbot(s) running about I would go 'undercover" as a fanboy and actually encourage thew fanboys to act even crazier, spend even more money and rally around the SC flag against the evil 'world'- Its 'us vs them" now, just like every cult on the planet...Ever. It would be fun tbh...
I dont think any of us are doing a bit of good- Sane people can see the writing on the wall and the others will hand over their virgin daughters.... I'm waiting for the '2 minute hate ' at the next live event.
I'll give to CR- hes a marketing genius. The fallout from this is going to be epic.
EDIT- When it does fall apart I would bet anything the fanboys will blame Derek Smart and the 'haters' because "this game would have been finished if DS didnt start his shit and destroy it"
What is there to pretend behind requesting of a game development company to provide a bit of transparency and accountability for the almost 100 MILLION dollars it has been GIVEN? Its a request for transparency and accountability. Not a baseless claim requiring any type of proof.
The evidences were all presented in many places already, including in the own blogs of Derek Smart, with statements of Federals, etc, offiicial information, press releases, etc. And for CIG breaking laws they were also presented ad nauseum.
The basic problem is... people don't understand consumer issues. They are imagining that the kind of proof/evidence that a consumer have to gather to win a case, would be only possible with a CSI investigation. So, you are looking for solid evidences, when, for the issue itself, are in front of you, you just don't understand, or is not aware that what certain things that CIG made, are wrong and against the law, and contradict thoughts even of the Federals about crowdfunding, and what can be done, and what is plain abuse of consumers.
Consumers do not need to get the DNA of Roberts to prove that were mislead.
The evidences were all presented in many places already, including in the own blogs of Derek Smart, with statements of Federals, etc, offiicial information, press releases, etc. And for CIG breaking laws they were also presented ad nauseum.
The basic problem is... people don't understand consumer issues. They are imagining that the kind of proof/evidence that a consumer have to gather to win a case, would be only possible with a CSI investigation. So, you are looking for solid evidences, when, for the issue itself, are in front of you, you just don't understand, or is not aware that what certain things that CIG made, are wrong and against the law, and contradict thoughts even of the Federals about crowdfunding, and what can be done, and what is plain abuse of consumers.
Consumers do not need to get the DNA of Roberts to prove that were mislead.
There are no Federal consumer 'protections' when it comes to crowdfunding due to the fact it's a form of patronage.
But there aren't two sides. That is a fallacy used by the attacking side to make it seem like it's some kind of mutual altercation.
What there is, is one small group that is repeatedly assaulting the people in the Star Citizen community. Then several members of that community feel attacked and need to respond. Then there are random people calling bullshit on the lunatic attacks against a video game maker and the new phenomenon of crowdfunding.
There's a lot of shit stirring, destructive behavior getting a free pass under the guise of fair discussion. Given the site moderators' penchant for banning "trolls", you'd think they'd be more on top of this rather than stirring the pot themselves.
It would go a long way towards scrubbing the yellow journalism stains from the gaming media's reputation if they would exercise some actual judgment, instead of attempting to sensationalize a bunch of self serving melodrama.
But there aren't two sides. That is a fallacy used by the attacking side to make it seem like it's some kind of mutual altercation.
What there is, is one small group that is repeatedly assaulting the people in the Star Citizen community. Then several members of that community feel attacked and need to respond. Then there are random people calling bullshit on the lunatic attacks against a video game maker and the new phenomenon of crowdfunding.
There's a lot of shit stirring, destructive behavior getting a free pass under the guise of fair discussion. Given the site moderators' penchant for banning "trolls", you'd think they'd be more on top of this rather than stirring the pot themselves.
It would go a long way towards scrubbing the yellow journalism stains from the gaming media's reputation if they would exercise some actual judgment, instead of attempting to sensationalize a bunch of self serving melodrama.
... or the poor victims in the Star Citizen community can provide a bit of good will transparency and accountability in appreciation for the 100 MILLION dollars it was GIFTED and lay the topic to rest.
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
And that is a logical response.
Clearly im from the camp who thinks this is a poorly mismanaged project rife with nepotism, waste and not a chance in hell of release- A repeat of CR's leading of Digital Anvil Studios.
Cig could take the accountability route and it would do nothing but good for their business- if things are on the up and up, folks on the fence would maybe be more apt to throw in some cash and folks already up to their ears in spaceships that dont exist could buy more spaceships that dont exist KNOWING the chance of them existing one day is on the high side.
Cig could answer for their ninja changing of the TOS and explain why even have a TOS if one side can change it without notice at any time?
if CIG addressed the issues rather than spin "yes we fired people but its not really lay offs , its 'streamlining" us 'haters' would have to shut up and DS would go away. It would also set a great example for future crowdfunding projects.
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
Again, this is not about Derek Smart. It's about the message and its inherent request. It is a message and request of transparency and accountability. Nothing more, nothing less. Switch his name to mine or any other name if that brings you more comfort. The strategy used here by SC and its defenders is a strategy purposefully advanced by the RSI/CiG team at the outset of this "crisis." It is one of intentionally attacking the messenger so as to detract from the real issue at hand. It is a defense strategy quite popular with defense attorneys in their defense against a defendant in an indefensible position. All that is being requested is a bit of transparency and accountability. If we could get a bit more of that and a lot less of Derek Smart please, then we'd be getting somewhere. That said, I doubt any of that is forthcoming. The strategy of continuing to muddy up the waters in the hopeful belief that it will go away is all they have.
Btw, kudos to you for conceding that last sentence in your last paragraph. It is the first time I have read of any SC/Chris Robert's defenders admit that there is nothing wrong with a bit of transparency and accountability.
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
And that is a logical response.
Clearly im from the camp who thinks this is a poorly mismanaged project rife with nepotism, waste and not a chance in hell of release- A repeat of CR's leading of Digital Anvil Studios.
Cig could take the accountability route and it would do nothing but good for their business- if things are on the up and up, folks on the fence would maybe be more apt to throw in some cash and folks already up to their ears in spaceships that dont exist could buy more spaceships that dont exist KNOWING the chance of them existing one day is on the high side.
Cig could answer for their ninja changing of the TOS and explain why even have a TOS if one side can change it without notice at any time?
if CIG addressed the issues rather than spin "yes we fired people but its not really lay offs , its 'streamlining" us 'haters' would have to shut up and DS would go away. It would also set a great example for future crowdfunding projects.
Is it mismanagement/waste as you suspect or are they focused on goals with all these 'accountability' demands being a hindrance to actual game development?
I don't know as I don't follow the day to day and week to week development progress close enough. However, this is MMO development for one of the most ambitious projects ever and think benefit of the doubt should be given to the developer where applicable and proven otherwise.
Is it mismanagement/waste as you suspect or are they focused on goals with all these 'accountability' demands being a hindrance to actual game development?
I don't know as I don't follow the day to day and week to week development progress close enough. However, this is MMO development for one of the most ambitious projects ever and think benefit of the doubt should be given to the developer where applicable and proven otherwise.
The benefit of the doubt was given. For one additional year of what should be the full release. Instead, they did not pass of 5% of a mess released (even that it does not matter if it is a mess, it is, which raises even more doubts about their capacity associated with an obvious cash grabbing and with the obvious fact that as more time it takes, more personal profit the founders of the company can make).
Is it mismanagement/waste as you suspect or are they focused on goals with all these 'accountability' demands being a hindrance to actual game development?
I don't know as I don't follow the day to day and week to week development progress close enough. However, this is MMO development for one of the most ambitious projects ever and think benefit of the doubt should be given to the developer where applicable and proven otherwise.
The benefit of the doubt was given. For one additional year of what should be the full release. Instead, they did not pass of 5% of a mess released (even that it does not matter if it is a mess, it is, which raises even more doubts about their capacity associated with an obvious cash grabbing and with the obvious fact that as more time it takes, more personal profit the founders of the company can make).
Lol? Really? Already given? Yea like MMOs never get delayed or anything. And had they stuck to that original schedule people would have been even more pissed.
And they already provide regular updates on what they are doing on their website. They are already far more transparent than they have to be.
I view it as a waste of time for a game developer to spend any more time trying to appease internet nerds and their sense of entitlement instead of spending that time actually working on the game.
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
Their staff is quoted as being: "We have four development studios: Los Angeles, Austin, Wilmslow, UK and Frankfurt, Germany. Our internal headcount has gone from five at the end of 2012 to 59 at the end of 2013 to 183 at the end of 2014 and to 255 now. That’s some pretty huge growth. The turnover at CIG is no more or less than it was at Origin, EA, Digital Anvil or Microsoft when I was making games there."
So if we were to take these numbers into consideration, starting with the end of 2012 and assuming the year-end number was that of the entire year and using an average salary of $70,000 annually, plus a 40% lkabor burden (which should be conservative). 2013 - $6 million burned 2014 - $18 million burned 2015 - $25 million burned
So in the even that everything stays flat from here on out, that would put it at $100 million burned this time in 2017. If it continues at the current rate experienced between 2014 & 2015 then the numbers would look like this: 2016 - $35 million burned 2017 - $48.5 million burned
So I think that what this shows is that it's much less of a scam and much more of a case of sustainability. I'm not speaking for the entire Pro-SC Camp, but what I'm saying is that SC will either fail or succeed. I'd much rather see the later, but if it fails, I'd rather see it fail on it's own and suffer whatever consequences come afterwards, rather than have to deal with bullshit had have plausible excuses as to why they weren't able to deliver (because of the Internet or people putting strain on their ability to deliver, etc). Honestly, I think that most of the people pounding their canes on the ground are people who don't even have vested interest in the project. Either that or people who have put money in just so they feel like they have a right to whine and bitch.
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
And that is a logical response.
Clearly im from the camp who thinks this is a poorly mismanaged project rife with nepotism, waste and not a chance in hell of release- A repeat of CR's leading of Digital Anvil Studios.
Cig could take the accountability route and it would do nothing but good for their business- if things are on the up and up, folks on the fence would maybe be more apt to throw in some cash and folks already up to their ears in spaceships that dont exist could buy more spaceships that dont exist KNOWING the chance of them existing one day is on the high side.
Cig could answer for their ninja changing of the TOS and explain why even have a TOS if one side can change it without notice at any time?
if CIG addressed the issues rather than spin "yes we fired people but its not really lay offs , its 'streamlining" us 'haters' would have to shut up and DS would go away. It would also set a great example for future crowdfunding projects.
Is it mismanagement/waste as you suspect or are they focused on goals with all these 'accountability' demands being a hindrance to actual game development?
I don't know as I don't follow the day to day and week to week development progress close enough. However, this is MMO development for one of the most ambitious projects ever and think benefit of the doubt should be given to the developer where applicable and proven otherwise.
Okay, everyone says how much "time and money" accountability will cost- it will cost almost zero.
The records exist and they have CPA's (or the equivalent) and attorneys on retainer.
We keep hearing that "creating all these ships for sale does not slow down progress on the game because its a different department" (one of the talking points...)- Same here- the CPA's (or equivalent) will not slow down the game and they have to have them on retainer.
CIG also promised transparency and to let us know where the money went if the game wasnt released after XX date (per their own TOS) which they changed without notice to give themselves waaaaaaaaay more time.
I'm not going to bore you with all the details but its all online from CR's past (and his companies hes run in the ground) to lawsuits by kevin Cosner during his Hollywood ventures , to overpromising and underdelivering and piss poor management/leadership.
Now things are certainly looking like a repeat of CR overpromising and underdelivering and managing a company into the ground- This time with 100 million of crowdfunded money and zero accountability.
You can look at both sides and see who you believe- You dont have to 'like' or 'trust' derek smart to look at the information objectively and DS isnt the only one who has been bringing this shit up for over a year now - hes just the most public name.
Aside from that- Accountability hurts nobody and would actually help their funding on this next ship sale for $450 IF things are on the up and up.
(And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
Don't you realize that he put there links/statements of federal authorities, and many other links that are not "his words" in his blog?
And since you brought this up, what exactly he has been caught lying?
You mean like not taking the 2 minutes to file an automated and free complaint with the FTC? In reality, he doesn't believe his own bullshit.
What a hell are you talking about? Several complaints were opened on FTC. I was one who opened a complaint there. And I know more people who did it.
Derek Smart never did and he was the one leading this little 'accountability' crusade. He spends hours writing and arguing on the internet (when that time could be used to fix his mess of a 'game') and after all that never took the two minutes to file the actual FTC complaint.
Is it mismanagement/waste as you suspect or are they focused on goals with all these 'accountability' demands being a hindrance to actual game development?
I don't know as I don't follow the day to day and week to week development progress close enough. However, this is MMO development for one of the most ambitious projects ever and think benefit of the doubt should be given to the developer where applicable and proven otherwise.
The benefit of the doubt was given. For one additional year of what should be the full release. Instead, they did not pass of 5% of a mess released (even that it does not matter if it is a mess, it is, which raises even more doubts about their capacity associated with an obvious cash grabbing and with the obvious fact that as more time it takes, more personal profit the founders of the company can make).
Lol? Really? Already given? Yea like MMOs never get delayed or anything. And had they stuck to that original schedule people would have been even more pissed.
And they already provide regular updates on what they are doing on their website. They are already far more transparent than they have to be.
I view it as a waste of time for a game developer to spend any more time trying to appease internet nerds and their sense of entitlement instead of spending that time actually working on the game.
Do you mean like the "internet nerds" that GAVE them 100 MILLION dollars?
Is it mismanagement/waste as you suspect or are they focused on goals with all these 'accountability' demands being a hindrance to actual game development?
I don't know as I don't follow the day to day and week to week development progress close enough. However, this is MMO development for one of the most ambitious projects ever and think benefit of the doubt should be given to the developer where applicable and proven otherwise.
The benefit of the doubt was given. For one additional year of what should be the full release. Instead, they did not pass of 5% of a mess released (even that it does not matter if it is a mess, it is, which raises even more doubts about their capacity associated with an obvious cash grabbing and with the obvious fact that as more time it takes, more personal profit the founders of the company can make).
Lol? Really? Already given? Yea like MMOs never get delayed or anything. And had they stuck to that original schedule people would have been even more pissed.
And they already provide regular updates on what they are doing on their website. They are already far more transparent than they have to be.
I view it as a waste of time for a game developer to spend any more time trying to appease internet nerds and their sense of entitlement instead of spending that time actually working on the game.
All the time people bring this "they provide regular updates on what they are doing on their website". Almost like if it was a good faith act.
It's not. They got million of dollars under the excuse to share such things. And you have no idea what that they share is true, or its lie just to don't make you panic, or sometimes to try to give the idea that they "know what they are doing", so people do not lose the trust. The fact is, that all these things that they shared, when investigate deeply, reveal discrepancies and absolute tries to mislead consumers to make their decisions to buy things.
They are not transparent at all, and they earn a lot more dollars, just to share what they share.
This is not 'good faith'. This is for profit. Period.
"I view it as a waste of time for a game developer to spend any more time trying to appease internet nerds "
The only internet nerds are those who refuse this. Who lives in denial and act like parrots of a marketing/pr scheme. Don't see the facts and only looks to the speech and in general, suffering from amnesia. The rest who will see the validity of the asking, considering in what status we are and what was told that would should be, and other circumstances that makes the whole thing suspicion, are just normal consumers that understand that their rights must to be respected, and they cannot be mislead.
There are no Federal consumer 'protections' when it comes to crowdfunding due to the fact it's a form of patronage.
Whatever you say man. Everyone knows here that its a lie.
Name the Federal statute then. The only Federal case that keeps getting repeated ended up settling out of court with no admission of guilt and nothing paid back!
Derek Smart never did and he was the one leading this little 'accountability' crusade. He spends hours writing and arguing on the internet (when that time could be used to fix his mess of a 'game') and after all that never took the two minutes to file the actual FTC complaint.
He is totally full of shit!
Derek Smart never did what? He filed actual FTC Complaint too. You and the people misinforming the facts are full of shit.
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
And that is a logical response.
Clearly im from the camp who thinks this is a poorly mismanaged project rife with nepotism, waste and not a chance in hell of release- A repeat of CR's leading of Digital Anvil Studios.
Cig could take the accountability route and it would do nothing but good for their business- if things are on the up and up, folks on the fence would maybe be more apt to throw in some cash and folks already up to their ears in spaceships that dont exist could buy more spaceships that dont exist KNOWING the chance of them existing one day is on the high side.
Cig could answer for their ninja changing of the TOS and explain why even have a TOS if one side can change it without notice at any time?
if CIG addressed the issues rather than spin "yes we fired people but its not really lay offs , its 'streamlining" us 'haters' would have to shut up and DS would go away. It would also set a great example for future crowdfunding projects.
Is it mismanagement/waste as you suspect or are they focused on goals with all these 'accountability' demands being a hindrance to actual game development?
I don't know as I don't follow the day to day and week to week development progress close enough. However, this is MMO development for one of the most ambitious projects ever and think benefit of the doubt should be given to the developer where applicable and proven otherwise.
Okay, everyone says how much "time and money" accountability will cost- it will cost almost zero.
The records exist and they have CPA's (or the equivalent) and attorneys on retainer.
We keep hearing that "creating all these ships for sale does not slow down progress on the game because its a different department" (one of the talking points...)- Same here- the CPA's (or equivalent) will not slow down the game and they have to have them on retainer.
CIG also promised transparency and to let us know where the money went if the game wasnt released after XX date (per their own TOS) which they changed without notice to give themselves waaaaaaaaay more time.
I'm not going to bore you with all the details but its all online from CR's past (and his companies hes run in the ground) to lawsuits by kevin Cosner during his Hollywood ventures , to overpromising and underdelivering and piss poor management/leadership.
Now things are certainly looking like a repeat of CR overpromising and underdelivering and managing a company into the ground- This time with 100 million of crowdfunded money and zero accountability.
You can look at both sides and see who you believe- You dont have to 'like' or 'trust' derek smart to look at the information objectively and DS isnt the only one who has been bringing this shit up for over a year now - hes just the most public name.
Aside from that- Accountability hurts nobody and would actually help their funding on this next ship sale for $450 IF things are on the up and up.
There is a reason no one in their right mind does all of that....because it takes away from the actual development of the game!
Comments
Heres the thing, that I think- I think the amount of new money coming into CIG has already dried up to a mere trickle and the bulk of their money is coming from Whales who are so emotionally and financially attached to the project that they will take out personal loans or mortgage their homes to buy ships AND prove the naysayers 'wrong'-
I'm not sure all this drama works against CIG since its a rally the masses of fanboys to BUY MOAR SHIPS.
"Fuck you derek Smart- How DARE you question POPE Roberts... Ill show him- I'll BUY MOAR SHIPS."
"Fuck you random poster guy- How dare you want to know if Chris Roberts hired his wife after she lied about her credentials and placed her in a high tier position thats already filled by an outside media company..HOW DARE YOU... Wheres my credit card, ill show this motherfucker"
-Spurred on by viral marketers and a cult mindset. Its honestly a bit creepy.
The worse things begin to look to a discerning eye- the more they feel 'personally attacked" and they rally with their credit cards.
This is like some crazy psy-op .
I think anyone 'on the fence' can see whats happening and will hold off on buying anything until there is a game of some sort - They are playing to the crowd...Funding.
I mean, their fans are over on the forum gushing over a $450 ship and how "reasonable" it is and they thought it would cost a whole lot more- Gotta have that ship... And we are talking about $450 for a jpeg of a concept in a game that doesnt exist and for all intents and purposes doesn't look like it ever will.
The fans are arguing against any kind of transparency as if its a horrible thing- I'm sure they would be throwing fits about no transparency in other area of life- But they wont dare question the hivemind.
If it wasnt for the paid adbot(s) running about I would go 'undercover" as a fanboy and actually encourage thew fanboys to act even crazier, spend even more money and rally around the SC flag against the evil 'world'- Its 'us vs them" now, just like every cult on the planet...Ever. It would be fun tbh...
I dont think any of us are doing a bit of good- Sane people can see the writing on the wall and the others will hand over their virgin daughters.... I'm waiting for the '2 minute hate ' at the next live event.
I'll give to CR- hes a marketing genius. The fallout from this is going to be epic.
EDIT- When it does fall apart I would bet anything the fanboys will blame Derek Smart and the 'haters' because "this game would have been finished if DS didnt start his shit and destroy it"
-Thats no joke- Watch.
What is there to pretend behind requesting of a game development company to provide a bit of transparency and accountability for the almost 100 MILLION dollars it has been GIVEN? Its a request for transparency and accountability. Not a baseless claim requiring any type of proof.
And for CIG breaking laws they were also presented ad nauseum.
The basic problem is... people don't understand consumer issues. They are imagining that the kind of proof/evidence that a consumer have to gather to win a case, would be only possible with a CSI investigation. So, you are looking for solid evidences, when, for the issue itself, are in front of you, you just don't understand, or is not aware that what certain things that CIG made, are wrong and against the law, and contradict thoughts even of the Federals about crowdfunding, and what can be done, and what is plain abuse of consumers.
Consumers do not need to get the DNA of Roberts to prove that were mislead.
What there is, is one small group that is repeatedly assaulting the people in the Star Citizen community. Then several members of that community feel attacked and need to respond. Then there are random people calling bullshit on the lunatic attacks against a video game maker and the new phenomenon of crowdfunding.
There's a lot of shit stirring, destructive behavior getting a free pass under the guise of fair discussion. Given the site moderators' penchant for banning "trolls", you'd think they'd be more on top of this rather than stirring the pot themselves.
It would go a long way towards scrubbing the yellow journalism stains from the gaming media's reputation if they would exercise some actual judgment, instead of attempting to sensationalize a bunch of self serving melodrama.
... or the poor victims in the Star Citizen community can provide a bit of good will transparency and accountability in appreciation for the 100 MILLION dollars it was GIFTED and lay the topic to rest.
They won't do that though, will they?
... hmm, inquiring minds want to know.
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
Clearly im from the camp who thinks this is a poorly mismanaged project rife with nepotism, waste and not a chance in hell of release- A repeat of CR's leading of Digital Anvil Studios.
Cig could take the accountability route and it would do nothing but good for their business- if things are on the up and up, folks on the fence would maybe be more apt to throw in some cash and folks already up to their ears in spaceships that dont exist could buy more spaceships that dont exist KNOWING the chance of them existing one day is on the high side.
Cig could answer for their ninja changing of the TOS and explain why even have a TOS if one side can change it without notice at any time?
if CIG addressed the issues rather than spin "yes we fired people but its not really lay offs , its 'streamlining" us 'haters' would have to shut up and DS would go away. It would also set a great example for future crowdfunding projects.
Again, this is not about Derek Smart. It's about the message and its inherent request. It is a message and request of transparency and accountability. Nothing more, nothing less. Switch his name to mine or any other name if that brings you more comfort. The strategy used here by SC and its defenders is a strategy purposefully advanced by the RSI/CiG team at the outset of this "crisis." It is one of intentionally attacking the messenger so as to detract from the real issue at hand. It is a defense strategy quite popular with defense attorneys in their defense against a defendant in an indefensible position. All that is being requested is a bit of transparency and accountability. If we could get a bit more of that and a lot less of Derek Smart please, then we'd be getting somewhere. That said, I doubt any of that is forthcoming. The strategy of continuing to muddy up the waters in the hopeful belief that it will go away is all they have.
Btw, kudos to you for conceding that last sentence in your last paragraph. It is the first time I have read of any SC/Chris Robert's defenders admit that there is nothing wrong with a bit of transparency and accountability.
I don't know as I don't follow the day to day and week to week development progress close enough. However, this is MMO development for one of the most ambitious projects ever and think benefit of the doubt should be given to the developer where applicable and proven otherwise.
Lol? Really? Already given? Yea like MMOs never get delayed or anything. And had they stuck to that original schedule people would have been even more pissed.
And they already provide regular updates on what they are doing on their website. They are already far more transparent than they have to be.
I view it as a waste of time for a game developer to spend any more time trying to appease internet nerds and their sense of entitlement instead of spending that time actually working on the game.
So I guess I'd consider myself pro-SC. I think it's been shown in numerous cases that they are burning through enough money that I think it's foolish to believe it's a scam. Here's a chairman's letter:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14839-Letter-From-The-Chairman
Their staff is quoted as being:
"We have four development studios: Los Angeles, Austin, Wilmslow, UK and Frankfurt, Germany. Our internal headcount has gone from five at the end of 2012 to 59 at the end of 2013 to 183 at the end of 2014 and to 255 now. That’s some pretty huge growth. The turnover at CIG is no more or less than it was at Origin, EA, Digital Anvil or Microsoft when I was making games there."
So if we were to take these numbers into consideration, starting with the end of 2012 and assuming the year-end number was that of the entire year and using an average salary of $70,000 annually, plus a 40% lkabor burden (which should be conservative).
2013 - $6 million burned
2014 - $18 million burned
2015 - $25 million burned
So in the even that everything stays flat from here on out, that would put it at $100 million burned this time in 2017. If it continues at the current rate experienced between 2014 & 2015 then the numbers would look like this:
2016 - $35 million burned
2017 - $48.5 million burned
So I think that what this shows is that it's much less of a scam and much more of a case of sustainability. I'm not speaking for the entire Pro-SC Camp, but what I'm saying is that SC will either fail or succeed. I'd much rather see the later, but if it fails, I'd rather see it fail on it's own and suffer whatever consequences come afterwards, rather than have to deal with bullshit had have plausible excuses as to why they weren't able to deliver (because of the Internet or people putting strain on their ability to deliver, etc). Honestly, I think that most of the people pounding their canes on the ground are people who don't even have vested interest in the project. Either that or people who have put money in just so they feel like they have a right to whine and bitch.
Crazkanuk
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The records exist and they have CPA's (or the equivalent) and attorneys on retainer.
We keep hearing that "creating all these ships for sale does not slow down progress on the game because its a different department" (one of the talking points...)- Same here- the CPA's (or equivalent) will not slow down the game and they have to have them on retainer.
CIG also promised transparency and to let us know where the money went if the game wasnt released after XX date (per their own TOS) which they changed without notice to give themselves waaaaaaaaay more time.
I'm not going to bore you with all the details but its all online from CR's past (and his companies hes run in the ground) to lawsuits by kevin Cosner during his Hollywood ventures , to overpromising and underdelivering and piss poor management/leadership.
Now things are certainly looking like a repeat of CR overpromising and underdelivering and managing a company into the ground- This time with 100 million of crowdfunded money and zero accountability.
You can look at both sides and see who you believe- You dont have to 'like' or 'trust' derek smart to look at the information objectively and DS isnt the only one who has been bringing this shit up for over a year now - hes just the most public name.
Aside from that- Accountability hurts nobody and would actually help their funding on this next ship sale for $450 IF things are on the up and up.
He is totally full of shit!
Do you mean like the "internet nerds" that GAVE them 100 MILLION dollars?
/ungrateful
Almost like if it was a good faith act.
It's not. They got million of dollars under the excuse to share such things. And you have no idea what that they share is true, or its lie just to don't make you panic, or sometimes to try to give the idea that they "know what they are doing", so people do not lose the trust. The fact is, that all these things that they shared, when investigate deeply, reveal discrepancies and absolute tries to mislead consumers to make their decisions to buy things.
They are not transparent at all, and they earn a lot more dollars, just to share what they share.
This is not 'good faith'. This is for profit. Period.
"I view it as a waste of time for a game developer to spend any more time trying to appease internet nerds "
The only internet nerds are those who refuse this. Who lives in denial and act like parrots of a marketing/pr scheme. Don't see the facts and only looks to the speech and in general, suffering from amnesia. The rest who will see the validity of the asking, considering in what status we are and what was told that would should be, and other circumstances that makes the whole thing suspicion, are just normal consumers that understand that their rights must to be respected, and they cannot be mislead.