And i am still waiting for your explanation where CIG has taken 75 M$ taxpayer money like 38 Studios did. Or where CIG has ANY open loans that need to be paid back at a certain time.
I am guessing here, but i'll bite:
38 Studios did some impressive work and demoes right up until that 75M the had in funding ran out.
It is not about WHERE the money came from, but the fact that they ran out of them. Thats where people draw parallels. Erillion said:
That is in game engine, although with higher polygon counts than what you will see in the normal game (it is explained in detail in the livestream from Manchester).
Ok, but it stll looks horrible... If I where him, I would sue for misrepresentation...
Nope, the controversy is about 38 Studios taking taxpayer money although management knew beforehand that the 75 M$ in loan would not be enough to finish their planned MMO project Copernicus.
Nope, the controversy is about 38 Studios taking taxpayer money although management knew beforehand that the 75 M$ in loan would not be enough to finish their planned MMO project Copernicus.
Is 90M enough to pay for Star Citizen as planned and do CIG know that? I do see a similarity.
But as usual you are doing your damned best to talk about everything else than that. So wahtever...
Nope, the controversy is about 38 Studios taking taxpayer money although management knew beforehand that the 75 M$ in loan would not be enough to finish their planned MMO project Copernicus.
Is 90M enough to pay for Star Citizen as planned and do CIG know that? I do see a similarity.
But as usual you are doing your damned best to talk about everything else than that. So wahtever...
I don't think funding is really an much of an issue for Star Citizen as some make it out to be. They seem to be able to make about four million to five million dollars per year due to supporters continuing to pour their income into the project. Not to mention, even if it were to suffer some kind of financial issue, there are a dozen or more publishers who would love a slice of the Star Citizen pie.
What a huge waste of money lol. Who cares who does the voice acting? I mean it's fine and all, but for a project that is obviously in trouble does it make sense to spend money on stuff like that? Mark Hamill? Someone needs to call Chris Roberts and remind him he isn't Lucas. What's wrong the big star of Roberts smashing block buster success Wing Commander movie, Freddie Prinze Jr. wasn't available??? Citizen-con? Alpha 2.0? This comedy show just keeps getting better. I'm amazed people are so easily fooled still.
Nope, the controversy is about 38 Studios taking taxpayer money although management knew beforehand that the 75 M$ in loan would not be enough to finish their planned MMO project Copernicus.
Is 90M enough to pay for Star Citizen as planned and do CIG know that? I do see a similarity.
But as usual you are doing your damned best to talk about everything else than that. So wahtever...
The press ! At last count i am at 54 articles about the Gary Oldman speech and the Manchester event within the last 2 days (using Google search settings). From all major and many minor gaming websites and magazines. And such sites as Forbes, which featured heavily in the recent anti-SC quotes. And what is their main topic of discussion ? The line up of well known actors. And many more articles are added every hour.
The public ! Within 2 days approx +10 k more backers, bringing + 1.6 M$ (and growing)
Many backers ! There is a lot of excited talk on the official forums about the comparison with the old Wing Commander games.
What do you think the average yearly salary and overhead (Office Space Cost, IT Equipment, etc...) of a CIG employee is?
How much do you think the Mocap shoot cost?
How much do you think they have spent on contractors since being funded?
I am very interested in what answers are supplied!
EDIT: Preferably in US Dollars!
Average yearly salary for programmer in the US is 72.000 $. For the UK and Germany, where 2/3 of CIG's employees are the salary is 20-30 % less. I posted the link to the average salaries in another post. I posted a head-count of CIG employees from 7 in Oct 2012 to 260 in Oct 2015 in another thread (the sticky post about SC milestones).
Overhead cost is varying wildly between different industries and different locations. Hard to estimate. CIG has not exactly chosen Numero Uno prime real estate spots for most of their offices. They outright bought the CryEngine in 2013 (German rumour mill says: for a very nice price) and do not pay license fees for it.
Mocap shoot cost ... no idea. Not my area of expertise.
They had around 80ish contractors in 2014, now down to 50 ish contractors in 2015. My guess: Take the salary for a CIG employee in UK and deduct 30 %. Keep in mind - the contractors are paid per task, not by head-count, so i would not use a full year salary as basis. My guess = several million $.
Can you go into more detail on how CIG secured a $75 million loan guarantee from Rhode Island tax payers money from that state's Economic Development Corporation (EDC) ... or anything similar from any other state ?
Just trying to understand where the similarity to 38 studios is.
Have fun
If the similarities are not completely obvious to you, then I feel sorry for you. They have almost 300 on the team, do you have any clue how fast that many people can blow through the money they have collected so far? You have no clue how a project like this consumes cash. Not even going into how it is almost impossible to manage a team that large without a large management team in place, which they don't have.
I could be laughing it up over all the people who threw money at this project, but I am not. I just feel sad that it is doomed to failure. If they had just stuck to the basic game, they might have had a chance, but Chris had to add his ridiculous stretch goals.
If you are really lucky you might end up with half finished game like Vanguard, but I don't see any publishers out there willing to bail them out.
At least someone gets it. You are going to run into some long winded arguments with @Erillion ;I would just ignore it. Sad part he is hurting the game in the long run more than anyone else. Just damage control high speed. He really should take a break. But that is just my opinion.
Can you go into more detail on how CIG secured a $75 million loan guarantee from Rhode Island tax payers money from that state's Economic Development Corporation (EDC) ... or anything similar from any other state ?
Just trying to understand where the similarity to 38 studios is.
Have fun
If the similarities are not completely obvious to you, then I feel sorry for you. They have almost 300 on the team, do you have any clue how fast that many people can blow through the money they have collected so far? You have no clue how a project like this consumes cash. Not even going into how it is almost impossible to manage a team that large without a large management team in place, which they don't have.
I could be laughing it up over all the people who threw money at this project, but I am not. I just feel sad that it is doomed to failure. If they had just stuck to the basic game, they might have had a chance, but Chris had to add his ridiculous stretch goals.
If you are really lucky you might end up with half finished game like Vanguard, but I don't see any publishers out there willing to bail them out.
You ignore major differences.
Notwithstanding borrowing 75 million. 38 studios took a big gamble by purchasing Big Huge Games. How many millions did the purchase cost them? They put themselves into a position where they had everything riding on Kingdoms of Amalur. Kingdoms of Amalur flopped and that's when things went south.
I'm actually surprised you ignore 38 studios debt. It's like wearing concrete boots.
IMHO Squadron 42 will release. If it flops, SC is most likely done and IMHO that's the only similarity.
I checked the link to order and ended in ----> BUY MORE SHIPS, BUY MORE SHIPS, enough said.
Damn, that evil website offers something ? EA would never do that! I rarely see game sites offering something... for S A L E. Damn you capitalism, DAMN YOU!
Good thing they are not just voice actors then. Next gen titles are capable of using real people, especially actors, as the source for motion capture and facial animation. So what this does is allow the actors to actually exist in the game itself, they offer more than mere voices... but expressions, persona's..ect, their acting becomes fully used in the game. Mix in known names and you not only have quality that goes with their expertise but also something much easier to market/showcase appeal.
If they have the resources to get away with it, then its a good move especially if they can get more sales out of it to make up for the cost.
Regardless, these actors WILL in fact add greatly to the enjoyment of the game... and the actual emotional response we can get from the characters they represent.
Rofl more wasted player $$$ on non game development... So glad I waited just to buy the game once it's out haha
Define game development? The motion capture and facial rigs they get out of it do fall under game development. Now if you are referring just to the challenge mechanics that designers can cook up, then yes they are different areas completely.
To put it in perspective, imagine your argument getting thrown at say a sports game where they do motion capture + face scans to recreate real people in the game. These directly contribute to the immersion and visual representation of the game itself. The same can be said for what SC is doing, only instead of athletes being used to make the game, they are using actors know for sci-fi and fantasy roles.
This is an important step in the next generation of game development, especially when you start to toss in VR.
What was that quote again? " Didnt feel like we were making a game , just making something for the next event ".
Hmm
holy cow - an event is a presentation? Man this anonymous clown must be intelligent. Wonder why he got kicked out, he appears to be a real pro. lol Seriously, I'm glad CIG fired this loser troll.
What was that quote again? " Didnt feel like we were making a game , just making something for the next event ".
Hmm
holy cow - an event is a presentation? Man this anonymous clown must be intelligent. Wonder why he got kicked out, he appears to be a real pro. lol Seriously, I'm glad CIG fired this loser troll.
I believe he was the one that quit. Just saying lets keep with the facts.
What a huge waste of money lol. Who cares who does the voice acting? I mean it's fine and all, but for a project that is obviously in trouble does it make sense to spend money on stuff like that? Mark Hamill? Someone needs to call Chris Roberts and remind him he isn't Lucas. What's wrong the big star of Roberts smashing block buster success Wing Commander movie, Freddie Prinze Jr. wasn't available??? Citizen-con? Alpha 2.0? This comedy show just keeps getting better. I'm amazed people are so easily fooled still.
Yah, it isn't like that movie was based on an existing game series that stared Mark Hamil in 3 of it's titles... I mean it isn't like they have history together cuz they never worked together on like 3 previous projects... And I mean no one who knows his previous work would ever expect or hope for him to repeat the things they liked... Good thing there weren't stretch goals letting supporters know something like this could happen.
So in short wow totally outta left field. /endsarcasm
If the similarities are not completely obvious to you, then I feel sorry for you. They have almost 300 on the team, do you have any clue how fast that many people can blow through the money they have collected so far? You have no clue how a project like this consumes cash. Not even going into how it is almost impossible to manage a team that large without a large management team in place, which they don't have.
I could be laughing it up over all the people who threw money at this project, but I am not. I just feel sad that it is doomed to failure. If they had just stuck to the basic game, they might have had a chance, but Chris had to add his ridiculous stretch goals.
If you are really lucky you might end up with half finished game like Vanguard, but I don't see any publishers out there willing to bail them out.
I have been a project manager for the last two decades, in various industries. I have a pretty good idea what a team of 300 people plus the necessary infrastructure costs. The data specific for the gaming industry is available online (average salaries, average overhead cost) ... so its not that hard to make a guestimate. You will find just such a calculation done by me in other threads here on mmorpg.com
Yes, I have a clue how a project consumes cash. Yes, i have a clue how a worldwide distributed team at various branch offices is being managed. And no, IMHO doing it with a large management team is usually not the best option.
Did CIG spent most of 2013 building up its infrastructure and team ? Yes.
Did CIG have some unplanned employee turnover, including management ? Yes
Did CIG have some development dead ends ? Yes (like every other gaming project)
But ...
Does CIG have a project timeline with milestones ? Yes (milestones may move, but thats not unusual in PM)
Does CIG have a financial departement looking at the money ? Yes (see/listen to recent INN interview)
Does CIG team have some very experienced personnel ? Yes
Does CIG team have full dedication to the project ? Oh Yes.
And i am still waiting for your explanation where CIG has taken 75 M$ taxpayer money like 38 Studios did. Or where CIG has ANY open loans that need to be paid back at a certain time.
Have fun
What is the difference whether the money comes from a kickstarter or from a loan. When the money runs out the exact same thing happens, the project dies. The point you are trying to make is superfluous. Just ask Brad MacQuaid what happens, you might get lucky like he did and find a friend to bail out your half finished game. I don't think Chris will be that lucky.
If you have so much experience please I don't grasp how you can be so oblivious to the numbers. Costs include far more than just salaries, you have rental space, computers, utilities, and it looks like housing costs too. With the new Obamacare, you have mandatory benefits you must pay. Sounds like to me you have never had to sit down and figure out what a project costs. 90 million for a MMO is a pittance. You can bet EA never budgeted 250 million for SWTOR. Fortunately for that team, EA has deep pockets and were willing to finish it.
Yep, been involved in many IT projects, including games. I have seen many good managers fail with 100 people let alone 300. Pretty obvious from all the turnover that Chris is not good at that at all. I really doubt there is much fiscal control going on with the all ancillary expenses that have been leaked.
So your bluff just folded itself. Yep, this is all speculation, but take it from a veteran, this does not look good at all.
It's a total waste of money to have A list actors in Star Wars, they could have hired the ahi-ahi-ahi guy or Rebecca Black!
jokes aside, quick tip: don't lose out on the 5000 free credits promo on account creation if you want to purchase the game anyway, use my link below. It can only be entered on account creation, not afterwards
Can you go into more detail on how CIG secured a $75 million loan guarantee from Rhode Island tax payers money from that state's Economic Development Corporation (EDC) ... or anything similar from any other state ?
Just trying to understand where the similarity to 38 studios is.
Have fun
If the similarities are not completely obvious to you, then I feel sorry for you. They have almost 300 on the team, do you have any clue how fast that many people can blow through the money they have collected so far? You have no clue how a project like this consumes cash. Not even going into how it is almost impossible to manage a team that large without a large management team in place, which they don't have.
I could be laughing it up over all the people who threw money at this project, but I am not. I just feel sad that it is doomed to failure. If they had just stuck to the basic game, they might have had a chance, but Chris had to add his ridiculous stretch goals.
If you are really lucky you might end up with half finished game like Vanguard, but I don't see any publishers out there willing to bail them out.
You ignore major differences.
Notwithstanding borrowing 75 million. 38 studios took a big gamble by purchasing Big Huge Games. How many millions did the purchase cost them? They put themselves into a position where they had everything riding on Kingdoms of Amalur. Kingdoms of Amalur flopped and that's when things went south.
I'm actually surprised you ignore 38 studios debt. It's like wearing concrete boots.
IMHO Squadron 42 will release. If it flops, SC is most likely done and IMHO that's the only similarity.
How is it any different? When the money runs out where are all the salaries, benefits, rent, utilties, hardware costs ad infinitum coming from? Right, it works the same way debt does. Chris has a bigger buffer than 38 Studios had, but in the life of a MMO development it is nothing, especially the way they are throwing money away on none development costs.
It's a total waste of money to have A list actors in Star Wars, they could have hired the ahi-ahi-ahi guy or Rebecca Black!
jokes aside, quick tip: don't lose out on the 5000 free credits promo on account creation if you want to purchase the game anyway, use my link below. It can only be entered on account creation, not afterwards
Confused again. :-D Why do you keep comparing this GAME to a movie? That makes no sense!
Can you go into more detail on how CIG secured a $75 million loan guarantee from Rhode Island tax payers money from that state's Economic Development Corporation (EDC) ... or anything similar from any other state ?
Just trying to understand where the similarity to 38 studios is.
Have fun
If the similarities are not completely obvious to you, then I feel sorry for you. They have almost 300 on the team, do you have any clue how fast that many people can blow through the money they have collected so far? You have no clue how a project like this consumes cash. Not even going into how it is almost impossible to manage a team that large without a large management team in place, which they don't have.
I could be laughing it up over all the people who threw money at this project, but I am not. I just feel sad that it is doomed to failure. If they had just stuck to the basic game, they might have had a chance, but Chris had to add his ridiculous stretch goals.
If you are really lucky you might end up with half finished game like Vanguard, but I don't see any publishers out there willing to bail them out.
You ignore major differences.
Notwithstanding borrowing 75 million. 38 studios took a big gamble by purchasing Big Huge Games. How many millions did the purchase cost them? They put themselves into a position where they had everything riding on Kingdoms of Amalur. Kingdoms of Amalur flopped and that's when things went south.
I'm actually surprised you ignore 38 studios debt. It's like wearing concrete boots.
IMHO Squadron 42 will release. If it flops, SC is most likely done and IMHO that's the only similarity.
How is it any different? When the money runs out where are all the salaries, benefits, rent, utilties, hardware costs ad infinitum coming from? Right, it works the same way debt does. Chris has a bigger buffer than 38 Studios had, but in the life of a MMO development it is nothing, especially the way they are throwing money away on none development costs.
What's the difference?
Well let's just start with Repayments, you know if you don't make them, you end up with a bailiff puting a padlock on the door just like 38 studios.
What is the difference whether the money comes from a kickstarter or from a loan. When the money runs out the exact same thing happens, the project dies. The point you are trying to make is superfluous. Just ask Brad MacQuaid what happens, you might get lucky like he did and find a friend to bail out your half finished game. I don't think Chris will be that lucky.
If you have so much experience please I don't grasp how you can be so oblivious to the numbers. Costs include far more than just salaries, you have rental space, computers, utilities, and it looks like housing costs too. With the new Obamacare, you have mandatory benefits you must pay. Sounds like to me you have never had to sit down and figure out what a project costs. 90 million for a MMO is a pittance. You can bet EA never budgeted 250 million for SWTOR. Fortunately for that team, EA has deep pockets and were willing to finish it.
Yep, been involved in many IT projects, including games. I have seen many good managers fail with 100 people let alone 300. Pretty obvious from all the turnover that Chris is not good at that at all. I really doubt there is much fiscal control going on with the all ancillary expenses that have been leaked.
So your bluff just folded itself. Yep, this is all speculation, but take it from a veteran, this does not look good at all.
Whats the difference you ask ? CIG does not have to pay back 75 M$, 38 Studios had to do that. It killed them. For you that may be an insignificant detail. For me its not.
I have been aware all the time that cost means more than salaries (see my remark above in this and other threads about overhead cost and license fees). For you Obamacare may be new, for us here healthcare and pension provisions have been mandatory for decades and OF COURSE its priced in.
So we both have been involved in many IT projects. Go us !
"Leaked ancillary expenses" .... speaking about the infamous coffee machine example ? Which incidentally costs exactly what such professional machines cost ... and most companies have several of those. And there is a VERY GOOD reason why you offer free coffee to your employees. ESPECIALLY to programmers. And yes, even to yourself when you work 18 hours a day for the last 3.5 years.
With no way to verify if you are a "veteran" or not ... thank you for your personal opinion. My opinion is somewhat different than yours.
Comments
38 Studios did some impressive work and demoes right up until that 75M the had in funding ran out.
It is not about WHERE the money came from, but the fact that they ran out of them. Thats where people draw parallels.
Erillion said: Ok, but it stll looks horrible...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38_Studios
Especially as these 75 M$ had to be paid back at some point.
CIG does not have loans to pay back. Especially not 75 M$.
And no, you are not Gary Oldman (thank god). But you can sue anyone you want ....
You think its horrible ? Well - in German we say - "Tastes are like a slap in the face - its different for everyone"
Have fun
But as usual you are doing your damned best to talk about everything else than that. So wahtever...
@hfztt and anyone else i guess!
What do you think the average yearly salary and overhead (Office Space Cost, IT Equipment, etc...) of a CIG employee is?
How much do you think the Mocap shoot cost?
How much do you think they have spent on contractors since being funded?
I am very interested in what answers are supplied!
EDIT: Preferably in US Dollars!
The public ! Within 2 days approx +10 k more backers, bringing + 1.6 M$ (and growing)
Many backers ! There is a lot of excited talk on the official forums about the comparison with the old Wing Commander games.
Have fun
Overhead cost is varying wildly between different industries and different locations. Hard to estimate. CIG has not exactly chosen Numero Uno prime real estate spots for most of their offices. They outright bought the CryEngine in 2013 (German rumour mill says: for a very nice price) and do not pay license fees for it.
Mocap shoot cost ... no idea. Not my area of expertise.
They had around 80ish contractors in 2014, now down to 50 ish contractors in 2015. My guess: Take the salary for a CIG employee in UK and deduct 30 %. Keep in mind - the contractors are paid per task, not by head-count, so i would not use a full year salary as basis. My guess = several million $.
Have fun
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
Notwithstanding borrowing 75 million. 38 studios took a big gamble by purchasing Big Huge Games. How many millions did the purchase cost them? They put themselves into a position where they had everything riding on Kingdoms of Amalur. Kingdoms of Amalur flopped and that's when things went south.
I'm actually surprised you ignore 38 studios debt. It's like wearing concrete boots.
IMHO Squadron 42 will release. If it flops, SC is most likely done and IMHO that's the only similarity.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
EA would never do that!
I rarely see game sites offering something... for S A L E. Damn you capitalism, DAMN YOU!
Life IS Feudal
this is full performance capture/facial expression capture
you get the voice acting, the face expression and all body movement all at the same time
Hmm
Seriously, I'm glad CIG fired this loser troll.
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
I mean it isn't like they have history together cuz they never worked together on like 3 previous projects...
And I mean no one who knows his previous work would ever expect or hope for him to repeat the things they liked...
Good thing there weren't stretch goals letting supporters know something like this could happen.
So in short wow totally outta left field.
/endsarcasm
If you have so much experience please I don't grasp how you can be so oblivious to the numbers. Costs include far more than just salaries, you have rental space, computers, utilities, and it looks like housing costs too. With the new Obamacare, you have mandatory benefits you must pay. Sounds like to me you have never had to sit down and figure out what a project costs. 90 million for a MMO is a pittance. You can bet EA never budgeted 250 million for SWTOR. Fortunately for that team, EA has deep pockets and were willing to finish it.
Yep, been involved in many IT projects, including games. I have seen many good managers fail with 100 people let alone 300. Pretty obvious from all the turnover that Chris is not good at that at all. I really doubt there is much fiscal control going on with the all ancillary expenses that have been leaked.
So your bluff just folded itself. Yep, this is all speculation, but take it from a veteran, this does not look good at all.
jokes aside, quick tip: don't lose out on the 5000 free credits promo on account creation if you want to purchase the game anyway, use my link below. It can only be entered on account creation, not afterwards
How is it any different? When the money runs out where are all the salaries, benefits, rent, utilties, hardware costs ad infinitum coming from? Right, it works the same way debt does. Chris has a bigger buffer than 38 Studios had, but in the life of a MMO development it is nothing, especially the way they are throwing money away on none development costs.
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
Well let's just start with Repayments, you know if you don't make them, you end up with a bailiff puting a padlock on the door just like 38 studios.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I have been aware all the time that cost means more than salaries (see my remark above in this and other threads about overhead cost and license fees). For you Obamacare may be new, for us here healthcare and pension provisions have been mandatory for decades and OF COURSE its priced in.
So we both have been involved in many IT projects. Go us !
"Leaked ancillary expenses" .... speaking about the infamous coffee machine example ? Which incidentally costs exactly what such professional machines cost ... and most companies have several of those. And there is a VERY GOOD reason why you offer free coffee to your employees. ESPECIALLY to programmers. And yes, even to yourself when you work 18 hours a day for the last 3.5 years.
With no way to verify if you are a "veteran" or not ... thank you for your personal opinion. My opinion is somewhat different than yours.
Have fun
I mean... just... wow.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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