I never stated it was my goal. I simply stated that the goal of the MMORPG designers when I was growing up was to create virtual worlds and that is what attracted me to playing MMORPGS.
Clearly it is not their goals anymore. Otherwise, why would there be lobby systems, and instances in mmorpgs?
You are not naive enough to think that developers' goals will not change for decades, are you?
Thank you for your response. I love the idea of global quests that are dynamic and lifetime quests.
The idea of exploring an area and having the A.I. Respond to a group meandering into it is awesome. You feel less line you are on "rails" and the area seems to have purpose other than to look pretty.
The label is a tool for defining the core features of a given title to enable a buyer to not only find a game that suites their requirements but to also speed up the process from initial search to location of a product meeting their requirements.
You continue to fail to understand that basic premise and are fixated on trying to prove that there is some other reason for having descriptive labels or classifications.
It is the same reason why medicine is labelled and classified.
It is the same reason why food is labelled and classified.
It is the same reason why alcohol is labelled and classified.
It is the same reason why shoes are labelled and classified.
It is the same reason why EVERYTHING is labelled and classified.
The label does not define the product, the product defines the label.
They hate questing because it's not like quests are a staple of RPGs or anything. They despise raiding, gear progression, grinding and all things associated with theme parks. Oh and don't even think about making a "MMO" that you can't play solo from beginning to end, because that is just silly talk! In addition, It better also be polished, balanced, free to play with no bugs and constant content releases.
My point is I think the real problem is that a lot of people that play MMOs don't really like MMOs anymore or have never really liked them.
When developers created games like EQ, UO, Shadowbane, Vanilla WoW, etc they weren't trying to please everyone they were just trying to please a small percentage of people that were into fantasy and video games. They basically started with a fantasy based environment, added some cool elements like crafting, building, etc, sold it in a box and charged a monthly fee to play it to support continued development and server costs, and we were all fine with it. There were only a few to chose from so us gamers picked our poison, created our guilds, hopped in voice comms with our guildies, quested until we reached a level previously thought unreachable and neglected our families and friends for months and years.
I feel that most of the original MMO players have either become jaded or have moved on and we are left with a bunch of people that discovered MMOs at a time when developers were chasing the WoW white rabbit and either doing everything the same but not as good as WoW or everything completely different than it, neither methodology has really progressed the genre.
I say it's time for MMOs to get back to their roots! Forget trying to be everything to everyone and just please the people that really love the genre. Charge us to buy the game and to play, make things not so easily accessible, make grouping mandatory for at least 50% of the game, make it hard to really advance if you don't have tons of time to play! This is what we fell in love with all those years ago and I honestly believe that returning to our roots is the only thing that will make it feel right again!
The real problem with MMO's is that a small portion of the population refuses to allow the devs to be blamed and insists on blaming the players while the devs prefer to listen to that portion and not the majority.
The label is a tool for defining the core features of a given title to enable a buyer to not only find a game that suites their requirements but to also speed up the process from initial search to location of a product meeting their requirements.
You continue to fail to understand that basic premise and are fixated on trying to prove that there is some other reason for having descriptive labels or classifications.
It is the same reason why medicine is labelled and classified.
It is the same reason why food is labelled and classified.
It is the same reason why alcohol is labelled and classified.
It is the same reason why shoes are labelled and classified.
It is the same reason why EVERYTHING is labelled and classified.
The label does not define the product, the product defines the label.
Seriously how many times must you be told.
wow .. .someone is really mad that websites are not using his definition of MMOs.
May be if you keep on telling it, some website will change? Let me know when that happens.
The real problem with MMOs is that no game really can create enough content to constantly keep us occupied.
Why is this a problem? Just finish a game, and move onto the next. It is not like we (or at least I) have time to go over all the content of all the MMOs.
Because a MMO is extremely expensive to make and if you jump ship after a few weeks the publishers doesn't have any reasons to make a MMO, you earn just as much money on a single player games with far less work and money.
If huge MMOs should continue to exist the games need to be able to keep their players longterm. Bungee players just don't generate enough money unless you are focusing on whales and MMOs who does tend to do well in the beginning but then go over on lifesupport with few updates and not much going on.
And few people go through all content of a game but they tend to pass all content they enjoy pretty fast today and then they indeed move on. And today not a single larger western company works on a MMO, there are a few small like Daybreak that possibly still are working on one and a bunch of crowdfunded smaller ones but all the larger companies and publishers have moved on to other types of games.
For now that isn't a huge problem, there are still plenty of western AAA games around (even if most of them are very similar) but 5 years from now it looks like we will be stuck with asian games, some western low budget and a bunch of ancient titans from before that already seen their best time long ago.
Something needs to happen to kickstart the genre in the west and MMOs that can't keep players for more than a month wont do that.
Outside of a handfull of games like WoW, STWOR and GW2 how many games have gotten out of the 250-500k the older games had? Not many. Not to mention F2P "subs" making the market very different. Internet access was different.
Vast majority of players never played those games to judge. They came with WoW and played WoW clones. Can't judge, hate or want what you never thought about.
You seem to want to draw an arbitrary line at 500k subscribers to slice the data in a way that strengthens your argument, but when you slice the data that way nothing changes (the vast majority of games above that threshold were modeled after RPGs (with quests) rather than virtual worlds (or some theoretical quest-lite MMORPG.)
So yeah, let's slice the data that way, or let's take the broader view of all MMORPGs (including whatever way you'd like to measure F2P success) and we'll consistently see that players have preferred MMORPGs inspired by RPGs rather than those that attempted to be virtual worlds.
No matter what way you slice it, quests are popular.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
And across all games they're called quests more than they're called anything else.
So they're quests. If you want to invent some new "epic quest" terminology, you're free to. But a quest is a quest.
I rather use something like "pathetic quest" of the usual "quests" because a quest in itself should be epic no matter if you are looking for the holy grail or saving the queen of Aqualonia...
Anything anyone ask you to do is not really a quest, if your boss is telling you to fetch him a cup of coffee it is not a quest and neither is delivering a letter to a guy standing next to the guy telling you to do it.
quest
(kwĕst)
n.
1. The act or an instance of seeking or pursuing something; a search.
2. An expedition undertaken in medieval romance by a knight in order to perform a prescribed feat: the quest for the Holy Grail.
3. Archaic
a. An inquest.
b. A jury appointed to take part in an inquest.
v.intr. quest·ed, quest·ing, quests
1. To search for something: quested for knowledge.
2. To go on a quest.
3. To search for game or bay when sighting game, as a hound.
From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/quest Killing rats or being a mailman is not really in the description of a quest. Now, searching for wisdom is a quest just as the epic place but if you look on a dictionary then most of what MMOs call quests just isn't that.
We want the old games. But we want them done better. This isn't a hard concept.
who are "we"? I certainly don't want old games. And you can "want" all you like .. but devs can choose whom they are catering to.
You didn't bother to actually read what I said, did you.
Not really. But hey .. the sentence "we want the old games" is pretty clear. Do I misinterpret it that you want to go back to the old classical mmorpg design, but with modern graphics?
The real problem with MMOS is that we don't know how to properly categorize them. If only we could all agree on what to call the game. MMO, MMORPG, MMOARPG, MMOG, MMORTS, MOBA How can we have fun when someone goes around labeling their MOBA as an MMO?
That is hardly a problem with MMOs. We have as fun playing a MMO whatever people call it or other games. It is a small but annoying problem with people but not with MMOs.
The real problem with MMOs is that no game really can create enough content to constantly keep us occupied. We seen some tries to solve it with player created content and random stuff but it havn't really worked as well as it should. And since all devs have speeded up the pace of the games which means the problem become worse.
A good AI would solve it but such a thing don't exist yet.
I rather use something like "pathetic quest" of the usual "quests" because a quest in itself should be epic no matter if you are looking for the holy grail or saving the queen of Aqualonia...
Anything anyone ask you to do is not really a quest, if your boss is telling you to fetch him a cup of coffee it is not a quest and neither is delivering a letter to a guy standing next to the guy telling you to do it.
quest
(kwĕst)
n.
1. The act or an instance of seeking or pursuing something; a search.
2. An expedition undertaken in medieval romance by a knight in order to perform a prescribed feat: the quest for the Holy Grail.
3. Archaic
a. An inquest.
b. A jury appointed to take part in an inquest.
v.intr. quest·ed, quest·ing, quests
1. To search for something: quested for knowledge.
2. To go on a quest.
3. To search for game or bay when sighting game, as a hound.
From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/quest Killing rats or being a mailman is not really in the description of a quest. Now, searching for wisdom is a quest just as the epic place but if you look on a dictionary then most of what MMOs call quests just isn't that.
Eh, the first definition fits fine. Game quests offer a reward; players pursue that reward.
RPGs have specifically called these activities quests since KOTOR (2003) and probably earlier. And of course sidequests have been part of RPGs from the beginning but weren't necessarily called quests at the time.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
And across all games they're called quests more than they're called anything else.
So they're quests. If you want to invent some new "epic quest" terminology, you're free to. But a quest is a quest.
I rather use something like "pathetic quest" of the usual "quests" because a quest in itself should be epic no matter if you are looking for the holy grail or saving the queen of Aqualonia...
Anything anyone ask you to do is not really a quest, if your boss is telling you to fetch him a cup of coffee it is not a quest and neither is delivering a letter to a guy standing next to the guy telling you to do it.
quest
(kwĕst)
n.
1. The act or an instance of seeking or pursuing something; a search.
2. An expedition undertaken in medieval romance by a knight in order to perform a prescribed feat: the quest for the Holy Grail.
3. Archaic
a. An inquest.
b. A jury appointed to take part in an inquest.
v.intr. quest·ed, quest·ing, quests
1. To search for something: quested for knowledge.
2. To go on a quest.
3. To search for game or bay when sighting game, as a hound.
From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/quest Killing rats or being a mailman is not really in the description of a quest. Now, searching for wisdom is a quest just as the epic place but if you look on a dictionary then most of what MMOs call quests just isn't that.
er•rand
(ˈɛr ənd)
n.
1. a short trip to accomplish a specific purpose, as to buy or deliver something or to convey a message, often for someone else.
2. the purpose of such a trip.
3. a special mission entrusted to a messenger; commission.
The real problem with MMOs is that people want that first great experience they had with MMOs.
For most of "people' that you said , the "great experience" wasn't in they "first" MMORPG . I also played few MMORPG until the rise of WOW generation . Things was fine until WOW take the throne .
It isn't about "first great experience" , a lots have few "first great experience" you said , not only one .
If the old MMO's were so great, then why aren't you still playing them?
Because they were changed.
That's because? I ask because this is the most common answer.. yet rarely is it followed with reasoning on why that was. Folks act as though devs just fiendishly changed these games out of spite... as if it had nothing to do with players or more precisely the overall community...
it had nothing at all to do with pages upon pages of complaints, nor large groups of players (guilds) moving on to the big new game that had..wait for it... QUESTS! and it was tied into the progression, no more were you pointlessly running around killing things for points,... now you were doing it because someone needed a pie.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
And across all games they're called quests more than they're called anything else.
So they're quests. If you want to invent some new "epic quest" terminology, you're free to. But a quest is a quest.
Actually there is growing trend of disillusion about quests.
Remember strong sentiments about questing in Swtor and Wildstar from initial playerbase?
Even in single player RPGs there is growing trend for better quests.
This puts MMORPGs in very hard position as it is harder to have interesting quest made in MMORPG than in single player / co-op RPG.
Of course there is many millions of gamers so simplistic task-like mass questing is still strong, but there is trend of growing expectations about quality and concept of questing.
And across all games they're called quests more than they're called anything else.
So they're quests. If you want to invent some new "epic quest" terminology, you're free to. But a quest is a quest.
I rather use something like "pathetic quest" of the usual "quests" because a quest in itself should be epic no matter if you are looking for the holy grail or saving the queen of Aqualonia...
Anything anyone ask you to do is not really a quest, if your boss is telling you to fetch him a cup of coffee it is not a quest and neither is delivering a letter to a guy standing next to the guy telling you to do it.
quest
(kwĕst)
n.
1. The act or an instance of seeking or pursuing something; a search.
2. An expedition undertaken in medieval romance by a knight in order to perform a prescribed feat: the quest for the Holy Grail.
3. Archaic
a. An inquest.
b. A jury appointed to take part in an inquest.
v.intr. quest·ed, quest·ing, quests
1. To search for something: quested for knowledge.
2. To go on a quest.
3. To search for game or bay when sighting game, as a hound.
From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/quest Killing rats or being a mailman is not really in the description of a quest. Now, searching for wisdom is a quest just as the epic place but if you look on a dictionary then most of what MMOs call quests just isn't that.
er•rand
(ˈɛr ənd)
n.
1. a short trip to accomplish a specific purpose, as to buy or deliver something or to convey a message, often for someone else.
2. the purpose of such a trip.
3. a special mission entrusted to a messenger; commission.
Perhaps both of you could benefit from re-playing King's Quest or Ultima or one of the other RPG titles (popular very pre-MMO) from which the phrase "quest" comes from SRPGs to MMOs? There must be a port of one or more of them somewhere.
Or maybe semantics is more fun than this thread, I dunno.
I think we've forgotten just how long some of the primary "pieces" of mmorpg construction formula have been hanging around in the gaming universe.
Maybe we can blame Sierra for everything! Or even Gary Gygax!
(Why do gamers, who damn sure ought to know better, blame games for being simple things?)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with MMOs. There is every variety of MMO to meet your needs. The problem is with the communities. To a large extent, it's an all or nothing gestalt. With it, no MMO will ever be able to meet that requirement.
Outside of a handfull of games like WoW, STWOR and GW2 how many games have gotten out of the 250-500k the older games had? Not many. Not to mention F2P "subs" making the market very different. Internet access was different.
Vast majority of players never played those games to judge. They came with WoW and played WoW clones. Can't judge, hate or want what you never thought about.
You seem to want to draw an arbitrary line at 500k subscribers to slice the data in a way that strengthens your argument, but when you slice the data that way nothing changes (the vast majority of games above that threshold were modeled after RPGs (with quests) rather than virtual worlds (or some theoretical quest-lite MMORPG.)
So yeah, let's slice the data that way, or let's take the broader view of all MMORPGs (including whatever way you'd like to measure F2P success) and we'll consistently see that players have preferred MMORPGs inspired by RPGs rather than those that attempted to be virtual worlds.
No matter what way you slice it, quests are popular.
Again, I am doing the peak pre-WoW game vs. post 2004. 500k isn't arbitrary. That's what EQ had at its peak. Most other games were between 250k and 500k. The point still stands how many games broke past that past range is a valid question when you say all older games were niche. That means vast majority of modern games are niche outside of a handful. That doesn't even get into number of people on the internet, high speed internet and general payment scheme difference.
Comments
You are not naive enough to think that developers' goals will not change for decades, are you?
The idea of exploring an area and having the A.I. Respond to a group meandering into it is awesome. You feel less line you are on "rails" and the area seems to have purpose other than to look pretty.
You continue to fail to understand that basic premise and are fixated on trying to prove that there is some other reason for having descriptive labels or classifications.
It is the same reason why medicine is labelled and classified.
It is the same reason why food is labelled and classified.
It is the same reason why alcohol is labelled and classified.
It is the same reason why shoes are labelled and classified.
It is the same reason why EVERYTHING is labelled and classified.
The label does not define the product, the product defines the label.
Seriously how many times must you be told.
May be if you keep on telling it, some website will change? Let me know when that happens.
If huge MMOs should continue to exist the games need to be able to keep their players longterm. Bungee players just don't generate enough money unless you are focusing on whales and MMOs who does tend to do well in the beginning but then go over on lifesupport with few updates and not much going on.
And few people go through all content of a game but they tend to pass all content they enjoy pretty fast today and then they indeed move on. And today not a single larger western company works on a MMO, there are a few small like Daybreak that possibly still are working on one and a bunch of crowdfunded smaller ones but all the larger companies and publishers have moved on to other types of games.
For now that isn't a huge problem, there are still plenty of western AAA games around (even if most of them are very similar) but 5 years from now it looks like we will be stuck with asian games, some western low budget and a bunch of ancient titans from before that already seen their best time long ago.
Something needs to happen to kickstart the genre in the west and MMOs that can't keep players for more than a month wont do that.
So yeah, let's slice the data that way, or let's take the broader view of all MMORPGs (including whatever way you'd like to measure F2P success) and we'll consistently see that players have preferred MMORPGs inspired by RPGs rather than those that attempted to be virtual worlds.
No matter what way you slice it, quests are popular.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
They're almost never called tasks in any game.
And across all games they're called quests more than they're called anything else.
So they're quests. If you want to invent some new "epic quest" terminology, you're free to. But a quest is a quest.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Anything anyone ask you to do is not really a quest, if your boss is telling you to fetch him a cup of coffee it is not a quest and neither is delivering a letter to a guy standing next to the guy telling you to do it.
quest
(kwĕst)From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/quest Killing rats or being a mailman is not really in the description of a quest. Now, searching for wisdom is a quest just as the epic place but if you look on a dictionary then most of what MMOs call quests just isn't that.
Not really. But hey .. the sentence "we want the old games" is pretty clear. Do I misinterpret it that you want to go back to the old classical mmorpg design, but with modern graphics?
If so, my response remain the same.
RPGs have specifically called these activities quests since KOTOR (2003) and probably earlier. And of course sidequests have been part of RPGs from the beginning but weren't necessarily called quests at the time.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
er•rand
(ˈɛr ənd)n.
Things was fine until WOW take the throne .
It isn't about "first great experience" , a lots have few "first great experience" you said , not only one .
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
it had nothing at all to do with pages upon pages of complaints, nor large groups of players (guilds) moving on to the big new game that had..wait for it... QUESTS! and it was tied into the progression, no more were you pointlessly running around killing things for points,... now you were doing it because someone needed a pie.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Remember strong sentiments about questing in Swtor and Wildstar from initial playerbase?
Even in single player RPGs there is growing trend for better quests.
This puts MMORPGs in very hard position as it is harder to have interesting quest made in MMORPG than in single player / co-op RPG.
Of course there is many millions of gamers so simplistic task-like mass questing is still strong, but there is trend of growing expectations about quality and concept of questing.
Or maybe semantics is more fun than this thread, I dunno.
I think we've forgotten just how long some of the primary "pieces" of mmorpg construction formula have been hanging around in the gaming universe.
Maybe we can blame Sierra for everything! Or even Gary Gygax!
(Why do gamers, who damn sure ought to know better, blame games for being simple things?)
I self identify as a monkey.