Do try to read the first post I put in this thread and notice what I converse about.
I did read it, I've read the same post a hundred times in the last 12+ years - sounds intelligent, sounds insightful, really doesn't do a damn thing because video games aren't just ideas you can write on paper and translate magically into a playable world.
They are numbers, and scripts, and logic, and variables etc.
It's programming, code made by people.
So unless you can provide specifics on how exactly to change things, giving specific examples and outlying in excruciating detail how EXACTLY it works...
Just empty ideas.
"Make games more immersive. Foster emergent content."
Because I offer solutions plenty elsewhere and when I make an entry post I do so on the subject of the thread or as a response to a conversation within the thread rather than creating a new tangent.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
OP says the real problem is community. Says, back in the day, people played together...
Plenty of people still play together today.
They just aren't (often) forced to, at least until they reach certain points in the game or want to do certain activities...
But if I remember correctly, there was plenty of soloing in the older games too, it was just more difficult (generally speaking) and often not as lucrative.
But wait again! It's STILL the most lucrative and "easy" way to play is to play with other people...
So, community is the problem?
Seems like communities are bigger when you have games with millions of players, and they are broader as you have tons of games to choose from...
Because I offer solutions plenty elsewhere and when I make an entry post I do so on the subject of the thread or as a response to a conversation within the thread rather than creating a new tangent.
And I told you your "solutions" post was a bunch of well written, great sounding ideas and philosophical musings that (while they sound great) really don't address any real "problems" because they are not specific solutions to specific problems.
How would you better foster community in a MMORPG, specifically?
Quick, respond without using buzz words like "emergent content" and "immersion."
"Community" in what context is the question extracted from that.
Overall gaming community? The sub-communities that form within game to socialize? The clans systems? The social hubs? The grouping mechanics?
Some of the statements made have suggested that modern tools that serve convenience in play have made communication superfluous to the gameplay, leading to a large "community" of people that don't actively interact with or communicate with each other.
The flip side would be that older games didn't have comparatively large communities to begin with, and lacked the convenience tools to garner a larger group.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
"Community" in what context is the question extracted from that.
Overall gaming community? The sub-communities that form within game to socialize? The clans systems? The social hubs? The grouping mechanics?
Some of the statements made have suggested that modern tools that serve convenience in play have made communication superfluous to the gameplay, leading to a large "community" of people that don't actively interact with or communicate with each other.
The flip side would be that older games didn't have comparatively large communities to begin with, and lacked the convenience tools to garner a larger group.
And I told you your "solutions" post was a bunch of well written, great sounding ideas and philosophical musings that (while they sound great) really don't address any real "problems" because they are not specific solutions to specific problems.
As stated, "Problem with MMOs" is not the title of a thread about solutions. What you're calling my "solutions" post is my post about the title subject, which is not about solutions. I said I offer solutions elsewhere, meaning not in this thread. I know this strange reality where people talk about the thread topic vexes you, but do try and keep up.
EDIT: Perhaps if you'd like to make a new thread that is meant to discuss solutions, then feel free to ask away there.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
As stated, "Problem with MMOs" is not the title of a thread about solutions. What you're calling my "solutions" post is my post about the title subject, which is not about solutions. I said I offer solutions elsewhere, meaning not in this thread. I know this strange reality where people talk about the thread topic vexes you, but do try and keep up.
So you post your comment(s) on what the problems are without offering solutions?
What's the point of that exactly? Seems kind of self serving. Sure maybe a sign of solidarity, like "I feel the same way too and here is why" but what is the point?
EDIT: Nah, actually it's simply offering perspective, sometimes it aligns with others, sometimes it doesn't. It's main purpose is to present an additional variable that can build a more complete image of everything faced in the subject for people to draw their own conclusions from or seek inspiration from.
From clarifying problems and having other people either confirm or deny it with their own opinions, more identity can be given to what kind of things can be looked at for seeking solutions.
IE, find what's broke before taking a hammer to it.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
So a thread to what, feel bad about the current state of MMOs? Seems kind of pointless.
One big pity party, sorry I came in trying to encourage people to get over it and really question what it is they don't like, why they don't like it, and what possible solutions are there to overcome it.
Well the mission statement of most MMORPGS when I first got involved was to create 'living/breathing virtual worlds'.
So for me progress for an MMORPG is if the game is moving closer to that goal.
Quest hubs, question marks over heads, fast travel, etc...all are not progress but deviations imo.
I would agree entirely. The current state of the MMO has fun games to play, for a time, but are not the living/breathing virtual worlds I imagined when I was a teenager and started playing UO.
I personally believe the inability for so many to divorce the FFA PvP system from Sandbox gameplay is the biggest hindrance to this goal.
I would further clarify that no MMO has, to date, been able to properly deter PK in a way that is realistic to a game world we are meant to believe is a living/breathing virtual world.
If the consequences for unlawful action were appropriate, I believe FFA PvP could work, but games that have FFA PvP tend to cater to those PKs as they play for that specific ruleset.
This leads to a game where you have a wilderness full of wolves, and the sheep all move on to something else, then without easy prey the wolves hunt each other to extinction.
There are never enough "honorable" white-knight players to counter the PKs, so it never works.
It only has "worked" when they are kept separate, as it does in EvE, in UO with the Trammel split, etc. but there are other issues there too.
There are just too many sociopath players in games that allow FFA PvP, now I am not saying that the player is a sociopath IRL, but they certainly play one.
Killing a weak(er) player for a few limited goods, camping corpses, other forms of griefing/ganking etc. is so, so, so counter-productive to community building.
How is a virtual world supposed to be "realistic" if they all seemingly are trying to simulate a wild wild west dog eat dog post-apocalyptic psycho-fest.
Games are made, played, and then the player either moves on or stays. The game thrives or exists until it can no longer sustain itself. Nothing simpler than that.
Devs aren't perfect, they aren't seers. They create games they believe will be great. There are roadblocks to some. Money, being pressured, decisions not being theirs, greed etc. Some games turn out great, others not so great(being diplomatic here).
Expectation is the handicap in most cases. Whether calling for the 'classical' Mmorpg or wanting a shinier one, the end result usually tends to be same. Disappointment for some and amusement for others. Project Gorgon, as an example, is very close to what can be called 'classical' yet there isn't great hype for it. SWToR and GW2 were hyped like crazy and look at them now. Still being enjoyed by many yet a disappointment for others.
It's doubtful any game will have the recognition or praise EQ, UO or even WoW (and some will disagree of the praise bit I'm sure) had in their time nowadays. Too many players now, and each with their own expectation of what it should contain for their pleasure. No game will ever cater to us all.
Well the mission statement of most MMORPGS when I first got involved was to create 'living/breathing virtual worlds'.
So for me progress for an MMORPG is if the game is moving closer to that goal.
Quest hubs, question marks over heads, fast travel, etc...all are not progress but deviations imo.
I would agree entirely. The current state of the MMO has fun games to play, for a time, but are not the living/breathing virtual worlds I imagined when I was a teenager and started playing UO.
I personally believe the inability for so many to divorce the FFA PvP system from Sandbox gameplay is the biggest hindrance to this goal.
There has never been a good balance and I think the main reason is that PvP in an RPG is totally different to the PvP in say an FPS game. Not just equipment, area of combat, balance but also mindset.
Because a lot of the popularity for PvP comes from non MMORPG'ers who are used to FPS type PvP, they want things like arena's and balanced teams but in an MMO it really shouldn't be like that.
Until someone can fix the issues with FFA PvP I personally would rather not have it there.
Best PvP I have even had was on a private NWN server with enforced RP...man that was intense.
Comments
My follow up commentary to you has been solely the observation about you doing what you're presently complaining about.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
They are numbers, and scripts, and logic, and variables etc.
It's programming, code made by people.
So unless you can provide specifics on how exactly to change things, giving specific examples and outlying in excruciating detail how EXACTLY it works...
Just empty ideas.
"Make games more immersive. Foster emergent content."
Sounds awesome!
How?
I was but a boy, now I am a man lol
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Keep trying though!
If you have brilliant ideas on what EXACTLY to change to make MMOs better, I'd love to hear them!
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Yes, that will help things greatly - let's just list out our problems, no need to offer up any solutions! Why do that?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Plenty of people still play together today.
They just aren't (often) forced to, at least until they reach certain points in the game or want to do certain activities...
But if I remember correctly, there was plenty of soloing in the older games too, it was just more difficult (generally speaking) and often not as lucrative.
But wait again! It's STILL the most lucrative and "easy" way to play is to play with other people...
So, community is the problem?
Seems like communities are bigger when you have games with millions of players, and they are broader as you have tons of games to choose from...
Yet there is no community anymore?
Doesn't make much sense, does it?
How would you better foster community in a MMORPG, specifically?
Quick, respond without using buzz words like "emergent content" and "immersion."
WoW has gotten smaller, but the genre has gotten much bigger and broader.
There are a lot more titles to choose from, and (likely, I don't have figures) larger as a whole.
How do you measure progress?
Overall gaming community? The sub-communities that form within game to socialize? The clans systems? The social hubs? The grouping mechanics?
Some of the statements made have suggested that modern tools that serve convenience in play have made communication superfluous to the gameplay, leading to a large "community" of people that don't actively interact with or communicate with each other.
The flip side would be that older games didn't have comparatively large communities to begin with, and lacked the convenience tools to garner a larger group.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
How would you address that problem, specifically?
EDIT: Perhaps if you'd like to make a new thread that is meant to discuss solutions, then feel free to ask away there.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
What's the point of that exactly? Seems kind of self serving. Sure maybe a sign of solidarity, like "I feel the same way too and here is why" but what is the point?
EDIT: Nah, actually it's simply offering perspective, sometimes it aligns with others, sometimes it doesn't. It's main purpose is to present an additional variable that can build a more complete image of everything faced in the subject for people to draw their own conclusions from or seek inspiration from.
From clarifying problems and having other people either confirm or deny it with their own opinions, more identity can be given to what kind of things can be looked at for seeking solutions.
IE, find what's broke before taking a hammer to it.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
So for me progress for an MMORPG is if the game is moving closer to that goal.
Quest hubs, question marks over heads, fast travel, etc...all are not progress but deviations imo.
One big pity party, sorry I came in trying to encourage people to get over it and really question what it is they don't like, why they don't like it, and what possible solutions are there to overcome it.
My bad... I guess.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I personally believe the inability for so many to divorce the FFA PvP system from Sandbox gameplay is the biggest hindrance to this goal.
I would further clarify that no MMO has, to date, been able to properly deter PK in a way that is realistic to a game world we are meant to believe is a living/breathing virtual world.
If the consequences for unlawful action were appropriate, I believe FFA PvP could work, but games that have FFA PvP tend to cater to those PKs as they play for that specific ruleset.
This leads to a game where you have a wilderness full of wolves, and the sheep all move on to something else, then without easy prey the wolves hunt each other to extinction.
There are never enough "honorable" white-knight players to counter the PKs, so it never works.
It only has "worked" when they are kept separate, as it does in EvE, in UO with the Trammel split, etc. but there are other issues there too.
There are just too many sociopath players in games that allow FFA PvP, now I am not saying that the player is a sociopath IRL, but they certainly play one.
Killing a weak(er) player for a few limited goods, camping corpses, other forms of griefing/ganking etc. is so, so, so counter-productive to community building.
How is a virtual world supposed to be "realistic" if they all seemingly are trying to simulate a wild wild west dog eat dog post-apocalyptic psycho-fest.
Games are made, played, and then the player either moves on or stays. The game thrives or exists until it can no longer sustain itself. Nothing simpler than that.
Devs aren't perfect, they aren't seers. They create games they believe will be great. There are roadblocks to some. Money, being pressured, decisions not being theirs, greed etc. Some games turn out great, others not so great(being diplomatic here).
Expectation is the handicap in most cases. Whether calling for the 'classical' Mmorpg or wanting a shinier one, the end result usually tends to be same. Disappointment for some and amusement for others.
Project Gorgon, as an example, is very close to what can be called 'classical' yet there isn't great hype for it. SWToR and GW2 were hyped like crazy and look at them now. Still being enjoyed by many yet a disappointment for others.
It's doubtful any game will have the recognition or praise EQ, UO or even WoW (and some will disagree of the praise bit I'm sure) had in their time nowadays. Too many players now, and each with their own expectation of what it should contain for their pleasure. No game will ever cater to us all.
Cheers!
Because a lot of the popularity for PvP comes from non MMORPG'ers who are used to FPS type PvP, they want things like arena's and balanced teams but in an MMO it really shouldn't be like that.
Until someone can fix the issues with FFA PvP I personally would rather not have it there.
Best PvP I have even had was on a private NWN server with enforced RP...man that was intense.