How much fun will be a game when you just died for the third time to a leopard you weren't able to detect or 'predict'? Games are about tactics, how to survive and thrive, not about how to play the lottery about how not to be one hit by some invisible enemy.
I don't personal like those type of game.
But I think the main point is it is quite stupid to go to the same area 3 times. And the whole point is to get a group and community to do things together.
So you are saying what qualifies for a virtual world. I would say that it would have to mimic most things in real life.
As Nari pointed out there are some things that probably can be omitted like going to the bathroom.
I'm mostly trying to point out that there are a lot of interesting things about the real world and real life. Not all of it is something that needs to be discarded because it is real.
I haven't tried Wurm Online so I can't comment on weather I think it's a virtual world or not.
fair enough.
I personally think 'virtual worlds' is a hard thing to define but its a bit like porn, you know it when you see it and for me I think there are plenty of virtual worlds.
My MMOs projects and homes are just as real to me as real life is which for me makes it a virtual world so to speak.
I'm also thinking virtual ecosystems and mobs that mimic intelligent beings.
As an example: instead of walking through the jungle and into a leppard and fight. It would be more like a real leppard and know your coming before you know it's there and maybe track you and attack your back when you're not expecting it.
Be careful what you wish for... since it will obviously be way less fun to play than you can think it would be.
Really? Thought it all through? Please enlighten me on what's so obvious.
The main goals in my thoughts are about how to make things less predictable. Predictable is boring, but it is also safe.
Unpredictable can be exciting and dangerous, keeps things fresh. Spreadsheet types hate Unpredictability.
How much fun will be a game when you just died for the third time to a leopard you weren't able to detect or 'predict'? Games are about tactics, how to survive and thrive, not about how to play the lottery about how not to be one hit by some invisible enemy.
Quick to jump to conclusions
It's all about Balance.
Yes it would suck if the leppard on shot the player from behind. The trick is to have the leppard almost kill the player. Barely surviving and coming out on top of an encounter is what puts the biggest smile on a player's face.
I think the trick is to learn how to survive in the wild areas where the leopard would be. Once you come up with a good strategy it's much less likely the leopards will kill you.
I'm surprised you are not interested in how farming works or how paper is made.
Oh .. i am .. but i can get that information by reading a wiki page in 5 min. Do I need to drive a virtual tractor back and forth for 2 hours before I know how it works? I doubt it.
Yes it would suck if the leppard on shot the player from behind. The trick is to have the leppard almost kill the player. Barely surviving and coming out on top of an encounter is what puts the biggest smile on a player's face.
I think the trick is to learn how to survive in the wild areas where the leopard would be. Once you come up with a good strategy it's much less likely the leopards will kill you.
A reference to something similar comes up with the wolves in Dragon's Dogma, which will strafe around your group and attempt to tackle and pin them to the ground. Having enemies that display a stronger natural variety to their tactics and subsequent challenge isn't an act of suddenly making it impossible to play.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
its similar to trying to debate with somoeone on logic as to why they are not in love even when they tell you that they are.
nah i am just asking questions, and musing about the flexibility of the human mind.
Plus, didn't people here often say they want "risk and reward balance"? Isn't that one of those situations where the higher the risk, the higher the fun?
I'm surprised you are not interested in how farming works or how paper is made.
Oh .. i am .. but i can get that information by reading a wiki page in 5 min. Do I need to drive a virtual tractor back and forth for 2 hours before I know how it works? I doubt it.
OK then get the wiki information in 5 minutes in you want.
Otherwise flex you brain and figure out a strategy on your own that works.
Yep they have farming simulators for people who really want to drive the tractor around a lot. There's game to suit everyone. Except old fashioned mmo gamers, because people who aren't old fashioned mmo gamers opinions are more important than the players themselves.
I'm surprised you are not interested in how farming works or how paper is made.
Oh .. i am .. but i can get that information by reading a wiki page in 5 min. Do I need to drive a virtual tractor back and forth for 2 hours before I know how it works? I doubt it.
OK then get the wiki information in 5 minutes in you want.
Otherwise flex you brain and figure out a strategy on your own that works.
For farming? There are plenty of other more interesting (to me) things to flex my brain around ... like figuring out how to deal with heterogeneity across individuals in experimental data.
Farming? I will go with the 5 min wiki thing. Farming simulators would be out of business if they target me. But they are lucky .. they have you, right?
I'm surprised you are not interested in how farming works or how paper is made.
Oh .. i am .. but i can get that information by reading a wiki page in 5 min. Do I need to drive a virtual tractor back and forth for 2 hours before I know how it works? I doubt it.
OK then get the wiki information in 5 minutes in you want.
Otherwise flex you brain and figure out a strategy on your own that works.
For farming? There are plenty of other more interesting (to me) things to flex my brain around ... like figuring out how to deal with heterogeneity across individuals in experimental data.
Farming? I will go with the 5 min wiki thing. Farming simulators would be out of business if they target me. But they are lucky .. they have you, right?
Not really my cup of tea, but Farming Simulator sales are nothing to sneeze at:
Farming Simulator is a farmingsimulation video game series developed by Giants Software. The locations are based on American and European environments. Players are able to farm, breed livestock, grow crops and sell all assets created from farming. The game has sold over four million copies.[2]
I'm surprised you are not interested in how farming works or how paper is made.
Oh .. i am .. but i can get that information by reading a wiki page in 5 min. Do I need to drive a virtual tractor back and forth for 2 hours before I know how it works? I doubt it.
OK then get the wiki information in 5 minutes in you want.
Otherwise flex you brain and figure out a strategy on your own that works.
For farming? There are plenty of other more interesting (to me) things to flex my brain around ... like figuring out how to deal with heterogeneity across individuals in experimental data.
Farming? I will go with the 5 min wiki thing. Farming simulators would be out of business if they target me. But they are lucky .. they have you, right?
Perhaps heterogeneity is complex or perhaps it's not. It sounds to me like it's no more complex than farming.
I guess you are just too smart for the rest of us.
You seem to be only able to focus on combat games and heterogeneity.
I'm pretty amazed you could get anyone to cooperate sine you can't even get most people to agree with you on a message board.
when I hear a game has farming implemented I get interested.
I like Farming in games
I will tell you guys what is WAY over done to the point of being passe and painfully old. violence
I agree with you.
It's nice to have some fighting in game for fun, but there are so many other things that are interesting.
I'm not going to claim to be knowledgeable about farming, but lets look at how it works. You need to find the right soil for what you are growing. Some soils are only available in certain places. You need to have the right weather conditions. Some things need to have more water then others. Most things grow better at certain times of the year. I'm sure that there is much more to it than that.
Obviously a game could be solely about farming because it is fairly complex if you really get into it, but it would be interesting just to get the general idea of how different things really work.
I bet the simple forging of weapons and armor are more complex then people realize. Having to achieve certain temperatures to smelt ores and then hammer the metal into something that can be used is not exactly simple.
Even making simple clothing is something most people have no clue of how to do. I have never made my own clothing. I think it would be interesting to see a realistic representation of how the process works in game weather it be cloth, silk, leather, or other material.
Then you have things like astronomy and geology which are fairly interesting topics. They both tie in a bit with things like farming.
Depending on what food you make it could have different impacts on your character. Different foods give your body different minerals and things it needs to survive. Having a representation of this in a game would be fairly interesting. I think early games made an attempt at this, but most of it was fairly made up and got more and more simplified over time.
Seriously... most of you should be playing Minecraft. There's even that "Leopard" thing, just better done. Minecraft on survival mode is pretty much what you are all asking for. And *hint* it also has farming.
I know I enjoy that game for my sandbox needs. Bonus: you can run a server for cheap and play with friends, too.
I do play Mincraft sometimes. Minecraft is a pretty fun game, but considering everything is made up of blocks that detracts from the fun. The combat is also fairly simplistic. The game is like playing with legos (which I like, but not quite as advanced as I would like). I was thinking of something a bit more realistic and with some magic/high fantasy theme.
Yes it would suck if the leppard on shot the player from behind. The trick is to have the leppard almost kill the player. Barely surviving and coming out on top of an encounter is what puts the biggest smile on a player's face.
I think the trick is to learn how to survive in the wild areas where the leopard would be. Once you come up with a good strategy it's much less likely the leopards will kill you.
You have to think about how it would translate to game-play, which is where it gets tricky, combat strategy is fairly easy to pull off comparatively to "wilderness survival" ... YOu have survival elements of course, food, shelter, crops, etc... Yet even in practice in the survival genre, the bulk of game-play falls to combat/PVP.... as in the long-term it's where the longevity lay. Again because it's the easy part to pull off..simply because it translates to game-play easily.
You also have to consider every man hour you spend trying to make mundane tasks fun that are considered work in the the real world, you lose a man hour on something else.
It basically works like this: Story translates easily into game-play, combat translates easily, crafting translates easily (when largely automated or dumbed down), defending property translates easily...
Senses, real world work/building, seasonal cycles, real animal migration, real weather patterns/effects, real survival skills, etc... are all much harder to pull off than the former list... not just because they might not exactly work as a gaming device, but because programming them, translating them into code, as well as intertwining them into the overall experience, would be extremely time consuming, some of these elements alone may take as long as designing an entire game within today's standards (a focus on story, combat and item crafting).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Seriously... most of you should be playing Minecraft. There's even that "Leopard" thing, just better done. Minecraft on survival mode is pretty much what you are all asking for. And *hint* it also has farming.
I know I enjoy that game for my sandbox needs. Bonus: you can run a server for cheap and play with friends, too.
What's the point of your response?
What are you trying to say?
That whack a mole AI is where it's at?
You speak about Tactics... besides PVP or figuring out the fastest way to level, where is the strategy or tactics in a themepark MMO?
This is true with raiding as well. There is no strategy or tactics when it comes to something that is static. It's like being an opponent in a martial arts movie. It takes skill and finesse but you're learning and reacting to a choreography. A choreography that does not change.
The "leopard" thing is just a quick single example. The point is to have a more intelligent AI that makes a game less static and less predictable which in turn makes it less stale.
You speak about Tactics... besides PVP or figuring out the fastest way to level, where is the strategy or tactics in a themepark MMO?
You can say the same thing about sandbox MMOs.
Besides PvP or figuring out the fastest way to level, where is the strategy or tactics in a sandbox MMO? Most sandbox games I've played the AI is just as dumb as themepark games.
You speak about Tactics... besides PVP or figuring out the fastest way to level, where is the strategy or tactics in a themepark MMO?
You can say the same thing about sandbox MMOs.
Besides PvP or figuring out the fastest way to level, where is the strategy or tactics in a sandbox MMO? Most sandbox games I've played the AI is just as dumb as themepark games.
I agree
Pretty much everything is static and the mobs are just as whack a mole dumb in a sandbox MMO as well. And for the record I enjoy both kinds of MMO's
Seriously... most of you should be playing Minecraft. There's even that "Leopard" thing, just better done. Minecraft on survival mode is pretty much what you are all asking for. And *hint* it also has farming.
I know I enjoy that game for my sandbox needs. Bonus: you can run a server for cheap and play with friends, too.
What's the point of your response?
What are you trying to say?
That whack a mole AI is where it's at?
You speak about Tactics... besides PVP or figuring out the fastest way to level, where is the strategy or tactics in a themepark MMO?
This is true with raiding as well. There is no strategy or tactics when it comes to something that is static. It's like being an opponent in a martial arts movie. It takes skill and finesse but you're learning and reacting to a choreography. A choreography that does not change.
The "leopard" thing is just a quick single example. The point is to have a more intelligent AI that makes a game less static and less predictable which in turn makes it less stale.
AI could be more adaptive, I've never played it but I hear Shadow of Mordor has some type of adaptability to how it's AI learns from encounters. I think that only goes so far as to how much it heightens the experience though. As I've also heard that SOM is not much more worldly/dynamic than an Assassins creed game overall, which is why I've never purchased it.
I don't think stale has much to do with AI, I think it's more in how long we've been seeing certain elements presented. I think what's grown stale is the 1-?? drudgery that MMORPGs have always been about. While I prefer progression, I am an RPG fan, I think the very nature of yet another trek from one to cap is what's really getting stale, real RPG's both P&P as well as SP video games, are typically about much more than that. It's not just story either that is different about them, it's not challenge, it's not half the crap we complain about. It's how they connect you to their worlds, it's much more natural of a transition.
For the most part they put you right into the experience they're offering, while they may have a small area designed to learn the basics, they almost always incorporate it in a way that has a natural flow from opening story, to getting on with doing what you want to do. MMORPGs offer 100's of hours of this type of drudgery, where as RPG's offer about 10-20 mins of it.
In short less I'm learning to be and more I am...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Seriously... most of you should be playing Minecraft. There's even that "Leopard" thing, just better done. Minecraft on survival mode is pretty much what you are all asking for. And *hint* it also has farming.
I know I enjoy that game for my sandbox needs. Bonus: you can run a server for cheap and play with friends, too.
I do play Mincraft sometimes. Minecraft is a pretty fun game, but considering everything is made up of blocks that detracts from the fun. The combat is also fairly simplistic. The game is like playing with legos (which I like, but not quite as advanced as I would like). I was thinking of something a bit more realistic and with some magic/high fantasy theme.
for the record currently most 'minecraft like games' meaning Voxel based games are ALL better than minecraft now. That is not to say minecraft is bad but it is to say that its already antiquated.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I think AI could easily be more adaptive than players. I'll be honest, I don't think the players can handle better AI. Or at least some better than others. And in most Theme Park MMOs, I think players, in general, don't really want it harder than it is.
I think AI could easily be more adaptive than players. I'll be honest, I don't think the players can handle better AI. Or at least some better than others. And in most Theme Park MMOs, I think players, in general, don't really want it harder than it is.
that is basically what I have heard game developers say.
In fact the trick to good AI in games as I understand it is to make them not too smart so that the players have a fighting chance
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I think AI could easily be more adaptive than players. I'll be honest, I don't think the players can handle better AI. Or at least some better than others. And in most Theme Park MMOs, I think players, in general, don't really want it harder than it is.
that is basically what I have heard game developers say.
In fact the trick to good AI in games as I understand it is to make them not too smart so that the players have a fighting chance
It's not even that. I enjoy questing in my games, but there needs to be a balance where the game remains enjoyable. I don't want every quest mob to require me to learn a raid boss dance sequence to defeat..
It's enough that I can spend a few seconds in a routine fight and move on to the next mob
Pretty sure he mentioned at least four types of mobs.
And questing does not mean doing 10-15 different activities. It means doing the same three activities 10-15 times.
[mod edit]
The guy was talking about Darkfall. In Darkfall you literally will be grinding one type of mob for over an hour (I said an hour to be politely conservative). Here's a post where one player got it in 50 kills and another in 500 kills.
The other 3 types of mobs you have to farm would probably mostly also require 1+ hours worth of farming to get enough materials. [mod edit]
Post edited by Vaross on
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think AI could easily be more adaptive than players. I'll be honest, I don't think the players can handle better AI. Or at least some better than others. And in most Theme Park MMOs, I think players, in general, don't really want it harder than it is.
It's not about their ability to handle it, but their ability to have fun with it. Playing to Lose was a great talk that covered the needs of various AI as they relate to different game genres.
RPG AI is a combat puzzle. It's enjoyed in that specific manner, and wouldn't be enjoyed if it were smart. It's just not the type of game or combat that works well with smart AI. Personally I feel that even in the genres where it makes the most sense, smart AI is never quite as fun as a good puzzle AI (though this is largely because these genres tend to be PVP-focused, which means that anytime you're playing the AI in these games it feels like you're settling for the second-best experience.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
I don't personal like those type of game.
But I think the main point is it is quite stupid to go to the same area 3 times. And the whole point is to get a group and community to do things together.
And questing does not mean doing 10-15 different activities. It means doing the same three activities 10-15 times.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
nah i am just asking questions, and musing about the flexibility of the human mind.
Plus, didn't people here often say they want "risk and reward balance"? Isn't that one of those situations where the higher the risk, the higher the fun?
Otherwise flex you brain and figure out a strategy on your own that works.
Farming? I will go with the 5 min wiki thing. Farming simulators would be out of business if they target me. But they are lucky .. they have you, right?
Farming Simulator is a farming simulation video game series developed by Giants Software. The locations are based on American and European environments. Players are able to farm, breed livestock, grow crops and sell all assets created from farming. The game has sold over four million copies.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farming_Simulator
I think they do very well without you or me
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I guess you are just too smart for the rest of us.
You seem to be only able to focus on combat games and heterogeneity.
I'm pretty amazed you could get anyone to cooperate sine you can't even get most people to agree with you on a message board.
I like Farming in games
I will tell you guys what is WAY over done to the point of being passe and painfully old.
violence
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
It's nice to have some fighting in game for fun, but there are so many other things that are interesting.
I'm not going to claim to be knowledgeable about farming, but lets look at how it works. You need to find the right soil for what you are growing. Some soils are only available in certain places. You need to have the right weather conditions. Some things need to have more water then others. Most things grow better at certain times of the year. I'm sure that there is much more to it than that.
Obviously a game could be solely about farming because it is fairly complex if you really get into it, but it would be interesting just to get the general idea of how different things really work.
I bet the simple forging of weapons and armor are more complex then people realize. Having to achieve certain temperatures to smelt ores and then hammer the metal into something that can be used is not exactly simple.
Even making simple clothing is something most people have no clue of how to do. I have never made my own clothing. I think it would be interesting to see a realistic representation of how the process works in game weather it be cloth, silk, leather, or other material.
Then you have things like astronomy and geology which are fairly interesting topics. They both tie in a bit with things like farming.
Depending on what food you make it could have different impacts on your character. Different foods give your body different minerals and things it needs to survive. Having a representation of this in a game would be fairly interesting. I think early games made an attempt at this, but most of it was fairly made up and got more and more simplified over time.
You also have to consider every man hour you spend trying to make mundane tasks fun that are considered work in the the real world, you lose a man hour on something else.
It basically works like this: Story translates easily into game-play, combat translates easily, crafting translates easily (when largely automated or dumbed down), defending property translates easily...
Senses, real world work/building, seasonal cycles, real animal migration, real weather patterns/effects, real survival skills, etc... are all much harder to pull off than the former list... not just because they might not exactly work as a gaming device, but because programming them, translating them into code, as well as intertwining them into the overall experience, would be extremely time consuming, some of these elements alone may take as long as designing an entire game within today's standards (a focus on story, combat and item crafting).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What are you trying to say?
That whack a mole AI is where it's at?
You speak about Tactics... besides PVP or figuring out the fastest way to level, where is the strategy or tactics in a themepark MMO?
This is true with raiding as well. There is no strategy or tactics when it comes to something that is static. It's like being an opponent in a martial arts movie. It takes skill and finesse but you're learning and reacting to a choreography. A choreography that does not change.
The "leopard" thing is just a quick single example. The point is to have a more intelligent AI that makes a game less static and less predictable which in turn makes it less stale.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Besides PvP or figuring out the fastest way to level, where is the strategy or tactics in a sandbox MMO? Most sandbox games I've played the AI is just as dumb as themepark games.
Pretty much everything is static and the mobs are just as whack a mole dumb in a sandbox MMO as well. And for the record I enjoy both kinds of MMO's
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I don't think stale has much to do with AI, I think it's more in how long we've been seeing certain elements presented. I think what's grown stale is the 1-?? drudgery that MMORPGs have always been about. While I prefer progression, I am an RPG fan, I think the very nature of yet another trek from one to cap is what's really getting stale, real RPG's both P&P as well as SP video games, are typically about much more than that. It's not just story either that is different about them, it's not challenge, it's not half the crap we complain about. It's how they connect you to their worlds, it's much more natural of a transition.
For the most part they put you right into the experience they're offering, while they may have a small area designed to learn the basics, they almost always incorporate it in a way that has a natural flow from opening story, to getting on with doing what you want to do. MMORPGs offer 100's of hours of this type of drudgery, where as RPG's offer about 10-20 mins of it.
In short less I'm learning to be and more I am...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
In fact the trick to good AI in games as I understand it is to make them not too smart so that the players have a fighting chance
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
It's enough that I can spend a few seconds in a routine fight and move on to the next mob
The guy was talking about Darkfall. In Darkfall you literally will be grinding one type of mob for over an hour (I said an hour to be politely conservative). Here's a post where one player got it in 50 kills and another in 500 kills.
The other 3 types of mobs you have to farm would probably mostly also require 1+ hours worth of farming to get enough materials. [mod edit]
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
RPG AI is a combat puzzle. It's enjoyed in that specific manner, and wouldn't be enjoyed if it were smart. It's just not the type of game or combat that works well with smart AI. Personally I feel that even in the genres where it makes the most sense, smart AI is never quite as fun as a good puzzle AI (though this is largely because these genres tend to be PVP-focused, which means that anytime you're playing the AI in these games it feels like you're settling for the second-best experience.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver