Richard Garriot's original vision with UO was to create a virtual world with a virtual ecosystem. I've been hungry for that.
AI would be everything. It was a real downer when the Storybrick EQN thing fell apart. It sounded awesome.
Perhaps it was too real in some ways. Even though it lacked real AI the PvP was too much for many people to handle without getting angry.
I would also like to see a virtual world with an ecosystem.
I don't really care if it has PvP or not as long as the PvP doesn't force everything else in game to change. If the world is made realistic enough then there shouldn't be a major need for PvP to bring excitement. Just learning to do different things in game and finding different ways to survive would be enough.
agreed
Although Darkfall is one of my favorite games ever I really didnt like pvp much. I did like large scale battles but I also knew full well that we didnt 'need' pvp for that. pvp, slow skill gain, massive skill gain exploits is what killed Darkfall. Most of its design was amazing
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Richard Garriot's original vision with UO was to create a virtual world with a virtual ecosystem. I've been hungry for that.
AI would be everything. It was a real downer when the Storybrick EQN thing fell apart. It sounded awesome.
Perhaps it was too real in some ways. Even though it lacked real AI the PvP was too much for many people to handle without getting angry.
I would also like to see a virtual world with an ecosystem.
I don't really care if it has PvP or not as long as the PvP doesn't force everything else in game to change. If the world is made realistic enough then there shouldn't be a major need for PvP to bring excitement. Just learning to do different things in game and finding different ways to survive would be enough.
agreed
Although Darkfall is one of my favorite games ever I really didnt like pvp much. I did like large scale battles but I also knew full well that we didnt 'need' pvp for that. pvp, slow skill gain, massive skill gain exploits is what killed Darkfall. Most of its design was amazing
The problem with it in UO is that there were a lot of people that were PKing so there was no way to escape it. In many ways that changed the way others in the game had to play. I guess it all depends on what you want in a game. I would like to explore a fantasy world that mimics the real world and learn from different experiences like exploring, crafting things, learning different ways to fight (like spear for long range attack against things you don't want to get close to), navigating the world on land and sea, building houses in a realistic way, etc. There are actually many different things that could be implemented as the real world is full of them. The problem would be if you were constantly being harassed over and over again while trying to do things you wanted to do in game. There would need to be a way to limit that so it's not constant. In many cases people were constantly attacked and killed in UO.
Richard Garriot's original vision with UO was to create a virtual world with a virtual ecosystem. I've been hungry for that.
AI would be everything. It was a real downer when the Storybrick EQN thing fell apart. It sounded awesome.
Perhaps it was too real in some ways. Even though it lacked real AI the PvP was too much for many people to handle without getting angry.
I would also like to see a virtual world with an ecosystem.
I don't really care if it has PvP or not as long as the PvP doesn't force everything else in game to change. If the world is made realistic enough then there shouldn't be a major need for PvP to bring excitement. Just learning to do different things in game and finding different ways to survive would be enough.
agreed
Although Darkfall is one of my favorite games ever I really didnt like pvp much. I did like large scale battles but I also knew full well that we didnt 'need' pvp for that. pvp, slow skill gain, massive skill gain exploits is what killed Darkfall. Most of its design was amazing
I was very intrigued with Darkfall. I didn't have the time to commit and I couldn't do anything without being continually ganked and robbed.
Grinding quest are a tool to artificially extend gameplay.... EQ being one of the worst offenders in that regard. Sure quests like the epic ones in EQ or the Gates quest in WoW are wonderful when they are current.But the same goes for end-game raiding for an example. In fact end-game raiding has pretty much replaced gridning quests because they are more interactive and insanley more likely to not turn people away, because as long as you get a little bit closer to kill the boss or another roll of the dice closer to get that epic gear it feels less then a grind to most compared to being of elemental 10k out of 70k with no real reward inbetween.
That is why quests changed, they where inefficient at what they where intended t do. At least at end game.
Most older mmorpgs didn't rely on "end game" though. End-game didn't really become a "thing" until WoW realistically
This post here shows how much post wow players know about real MMORPGS....NOTHING!
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
Richard Garriot's original vision with UO was to create a virtual world with a virtual ecosystem. I've been hungry for that.
Not very entertaining to me.
And not very entertaining to the masses, given that EQ surpassed UO quickly .. and it is just a hack-n-slash progression game.
We haven't actually seen a realistic virtual world simulator yet. There were a lot of limitations when UO came out. D&D was also huge and I think that's part of why EQ was so big. As people mentioned the PvP had a large impact as well.
The very best times I've had in games have come from players imaginations. Good RPers can really make a game fun at times.
nah ... the very best times i have in games have come from developers' imagination, implemention, and polish. Random strangers? I can do without in games.
Then you should play single player games. Off with you!
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
Richard Garriot's original vision with UO was to create a virtual world with a virtual ecosystem. I've been hungry for that.
Not very entertaining to me.
And not very entertaining to the masses, given that EQ surpassed UO quickly .. and it is just a hack-n-slash progression game.
We haven't actually seen a realistic virtual world simulator yet. There were a lot of limitations when UO came out. D&D was also huge and I think that's part of why EQ was so big. As people mentioned the PvP had a large impact as well.
what do you mean by 'realistic virtual world simulator'? I ask because I can think of several that I would call a virtual world. so not sure what you mean exactly by that statement
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Richard Garriot's original vision with UO was to create a virtual world with a virtual ecosystem. I've been hungry for that.
Not very entertaining to me.
And not very entertaining to the masses, given that EQ surpassed UO quickly .. and it is just a hack-n-slash progression game.
We haven't actually seen a realistic virtual world simulator yet. There were a lot of limitations when UO came out. D&D was also huge and I think that's part of why EQ was so big. As people mentioned the PvP had a large impact as well.
what do you mean by 'realistic virtual world simulator'? I ask because I can think of several that I would call a virtual world. so not sure what you mean exactly by that statement
I mean we haven't seen a virtual world where animals move/migrate and things are constantly changing as they would in the real world. Basically what we have so far are worlds that allow for doing things like crafting in a somewhat complex and realistic manner, but the mobs are generally fairly static. The world itself is fairly static. That means you have to rely completely on people to make it feel realistic in any capacity.
The very best times I've had in games have come from players imaginations. Good RPers can really make a game fun at times.
nah ... the very best times i have in games have come from developers' imagination, implemention, and polish. Random strangers? I can do without in games.
Then you should play single player games. Off with you!
I do .. except sometimes I cannot find the same gameplay & IP in single player games, compared to some MMOs (like Marvel Heroes). Hence I play those MMOs as single player games.
Otherwise, you don't think i will come back to the MMO genre, do you?
The real problem of modern mmorpgs is that they do not create a world any more. Those NPCs and cities you visited on your journey to become the saviour of world-XYZ mean nothing and you never re-visit them.
The original MMORPGs created a world where iconic NPCs and factions where part of the story and world. You revisited them on a regular basis learning more about their background and the world as you progressed and NPCs changed in the way they reacted to you.
This is what is called a character ARC in movies. It is non-existent in modern MMORPGS. Modern MMORPGS are throwaway content that has no meaning at all.
Challenge yourself and tell me the background story of any recent MMORPG and some noteworthy NPC characters and their quirks or funny encounters/dialogues with them.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
Richard Garriot's original vision with UO was to create a virtual world with a virtual ecosystem. I've been hungry for that.
Not very entertaining to me.
And not very entertaining to the masses, given that EQ surpassed UO quickly .. and it is just a hack-n-slash progression game.
We haven't actually seen a realistic virtual world simulator yet. There were a lot of limitations when UO came out. D&D was also huge and I think that's part of why EQ was so big. As people mentioned the PvP had a large impact as well.
no .. but there is no reason that a game will be more fun if it has a better virtual world simulation.
Fallout 4 is fun, to me, not because it is realistic (e.g. I don't have to go to bathroom in the game, and i don't find worms in the mud), but because it has good combat gameplay, good scripted stories, and interesting design.
D3 is also fun to me .. it does not even has a world.
The best world "simulator" is the real world, and most cannot wait to leave and go into some unrealistic games to have fun. Heck, you don't even need a world to have fun, as many MMOs have taken that part out, or minimize it.
Richard Garriot's original vision with UO was to create a virtual world with a virtual ecosystem. I've been hungry for that.
Not very entertaining to me.
And not very entertaining to the masses, given that EQ surpassed UO quickly .. and it is just a hack-n-slash progression game.
We haven't actually seen a realistic virtual world simulator yet. There were a lot of limitations when UO came out. D&D was also huge and I think that's part of why EQ was so big. As people mentioned the PvP had a large impact as well.
no .. but there is no reason that a game will be more fun if it has a better virtual world simulation.
Fallout 4 is fun, to me, not because it is realistic (e.g. I don't have to go to bathroom in the game, and i don't find worms in the mud), but because it has good combat gameplay, good scripted stories, and interesting design.
D3 is also fun to me .. it does not even has a world.
The best world "simulator" is the real world, and most cannot wait to leave and go into some unrealistic games to have fun. Heck, you don't even need a world to have fun, as many MMOs have taken that part out, or minimize it.
You bring this up all the time.
You forget that there are many things in the real world that are interesting. For instance you seem to only enjoy killing people. That is a pretty one track mind for entertainment.
There are many scientific things in the real world that are quite interesting that you probably don't know about. They would make for a more interesting game than clicking on ! mark and walking to ? I'm sure.
I mean we haven't seen a virtual world where animals move/migrate and things are constantly changing as they would in the real world. Basically what we have so far are worlds that allow for doing things like crafting in a somewhat complex and realistic manner, but the mobs are generally fairly static. The world itself is fairly static. That means you have to rely completely on people to make it feel realistic in any capacity.
Wurm Online does that.
I dont think the lack or containment of roaming mobs really is a qualifier for what is or is not a virtual world. Having said that, Wurm has that.
In other words, if you took EQ2 exactly as it is but made the mobs wander then it would be a virtual world for you?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
It's an undeniable fact (not an opinion) that quests offer more variety. We've covered this in prior threads. The activities are more varied: killing, vs. killing, collecting, delivering, bombing, sabotaging, building, etc, etc. The mobs fought are more varied: 1-3 enemies in an area fought repeitively, vs. killing 7-15 mobs per quest and then switching mob type. Questing is more varied, period. (That's why it's popular!)
It's a fact that if you're simplifying things to the point where you say there is only questing, dungeons, PVP, and raids in quest-based games, that the comparable simplification is "grinding and PVP". This isn't really the sort of thing you can say you "don't believe". It only benefits my side of the argument (it shows variety and disputes your own "lack of choice" argument) for you to oversimplify things that way, and even I'm arguing it's useless oversimplification that you shouldn't use.
It's a fact that it's a progression system design choice whether you can wear light, medium, and heavy armor on the same character in a game. Which is why it's offtopic in a thread about quest design.
You literally just requested vendor-purchasable gear as a feature and I literally just explained the point of doing so. And yet after I've mentioned it was part of WOW you've done a 180 and said there's "no point". Are you seriously just nay-saying anything WOW did? Don't you feel that's a tremendously illogical stance to take? The vendor gear matters. I've had characters switch specs, and start dying to mobs (because their DPS was 25-50% lower than where it should be), and then I spent time finding the vendor and filling out the missing parts of my gear and things went smoothly afterwards. Again: that's the point.
It's a fact that switching mob types takes time, and that if a game doesn't provide bonus XP for killing other mob types then it's essentially penalizing you for variety. Quest XP is that bonus XP. People will switch zones eventually when they've outleveled the mob they're currently grinding, but the overall system is dramatically less varied than quest-based games.
This is not the first time I've pointed out the varied reasons quest-based games are dramatically more varied.
This time please consider allowing the truth to sink in, so that we don't have to rehash this in future threads. Deliberately ignorance of the truth is not recommended.
First, one clarification.
Things like "bombing, sabotaging, etc" is not more variety, it's different names applied to the same fundamental tasks.
Secondly, you can achieve all such tasks with or without a questing system and reward them equally.
Dungeons generally are directed by quests. Raids are directed by quests as well, but are intended to be repeated multiple times for gear grinding. Not to mention that the tasks between all of those available activities are fundamentally the same (hitting things).
And your perpetual claim about different mobs offering different challenge or refreshment beyond a cosmetic change is a joke.
This right here?
"When in fact in a good MMORPG like WOW, mob A casts a powerful spell that must be interrupted and so it actually is variety compared with mob B which does a powerful forward cone attack which must be dodged. That's variety."
It's plainly not reality. Even a hard hitting normal mob is not going to be that big of a threat unless the player at the helm is incompetent, and then they have other problems. The only time such "variety" comes up is in vet mobs or bosses, and that plays into the progression and variety of the overall game in only the most minimal of senses.
Want variety? How about Asheron's Call where you could level off of dong just about everything in that game? Running around? Sure. Crafting? Yeah. Guild management? Yup. Etc.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I mean we haven't seen a virtual world where animals move/migrate and things are constantly changing as they would in the real world. Basically what we have so far are worlds that allow for doing things like crafting in a somewhat complex and realistic manner, but the mobs are generally fairly static. The world itself is fairly static. That means you have to rely completely on people to make it feel realistic in any capacity.
Wurm Online does that.
I dont think the lack or containment of roaming mobs really is a qualifier for what is or is not a virtual world. Having said that, Wurm has that.
I believe it is. For instance if animals don't roam that is not realistic. The earth is an ever changing and evolving place. Nothing ever stays the same. Things are always in constant flux.
Other than creating an ecosystem as mentioned that removes the biggest complaint most people have which is camping mobs.
I think a true ecosystem is harder to create and more involved than most people imagine. That is why it hasn't been done.
It would allow for a lot more choice in terms of what you wanted to do in game.
Creating a realistic solar system would be a challenge in itself. Everything on earth is the way it is because of how everything is setup. It would be difficult to create a simulation of the earth rotating around the sun, the moon around the earth, and other planets, their impact on the planets, etc. in a realistic way.
I mean we haven't seen a virtual world where animals move/migrate and things are constantly changing as they would in the real world. Basically what we have so far are worlds that allow for doing things like crafting in a somewhat complex and realistic manner, but the mobs are generally fairly static. The world itself is fairly static. That means you have to rely completely on people to make it feel realistic in any capacity.
Wurm Online does that.
I dont think the lack or containment of roaming mobs really is a qualifier for what is or is not a virtual world. Having said that, Wurm has that.
I believe it is. For instance if animals don't roam that is not realistic. The earth is an ever changing and evolving place. Nothing ever stays the same. Things are always in constant flux.
Other than creating an ecosystem as mentioned that removes the biggest complaint most people have which is camping mobs.
I think a true ecosystem is harder to create and more involved than most people imagine. That is why it hasn't been done.
It would allow for a lot more choice in terms of what you wanted to do in game.
Creating a realistic solar system would be a challenge in itself. Everything on earth is the way it is because of how everything is setup. It would be difficult to create a simulation of the earth rotating around the sun, the moon around the earth, and other planets, their impact on the planets, etc. in a realistic way.
I want to ask the question again just to make sure.
If you took EQ2 exactly as it is and ONLY added roaming mobs then it would have moved from a non-virtual world to a virtual world.
would the same equation apply to WoW as well as most other MMOs?
I think the game you are looking for then is Wurm Online
Mobs in Wurm Online roam, age, die, have babies and you can perform husbandry
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
It's too vague to respond to, if it was. Keep in mind whatever your example is it has to be able to compete with the sheer variety of activities (and variety within those activities) that questing provides.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I mean we haven't seen a virtual world where animals move/migrate and things are constantly changing as they would in the real world. Basically what we have so far are worlds that allow for doing things like crafting in a somewhat complex and realistic manner, but the mobs are generally fairly static. The world itself is fairly static. That means you have to rely completely on people to make it feel realistic in any capacity.
Wurm Online does that.
I dont think the lack or containment of roaming mobs really is a qualifier for what is or is not a virtual world. Having said that, Wurm has that.
I believe it is. For instance if animals don't roam that is not realistic. The earth is an ever changing and evolving place. Nothing ever stays the same. Things are always in constant flux.
Other than creating an ecosystem as mentioned that removes the biggest complaint most people have which is camping mobs.
I think a true ecosystem is harder to create and more involved than most people imagine. That is why it hasn't been done.
It would allow for a lot more choice in terms of what you wanted to do in game.
Creating a realistic solar system would be a challenge in itself. Everything on earth is the way it is because of how everything is setup. It would be difficult to create a simulation of the earth rotating around the sun, the moon around the earth, and other planets, their impact on the planets, etc. in a realistic way.
I want to ask the question again just to make sure.
If you took EQ2 exactly as it is and ONLY added roaming mobs then it would have moved from a non-virtual world to a virtual world.
would the same equation apply to WoW as well as most other MMOs?
I think the game you are looking for then is Wurm Online
Mobs in Wurm Online roam, age, die, have babies and you can perform husbandry
I don't believe that is enough. It would have to mimic the hole ecosystem in real life and allow you to do anything you could in real life in the game. That does sound like it's on the right track though depending on what you want in the game. Personally I wouldn't want my character to age and die. I wouldn't mind if NPCs did. From a scientific perspective it would also need to mimic the way wind is generated. The way storms are generated. The way rocks are created. Earth quakes, Volcano's, etc. The way the earth's core spews up materials that are important for our survival. The different minerals that the earth is made up of. The different things we can create using them. Bacteria and how it transformed into complex life. The theory of relativity. I think there is a lot of potential there.
It's too vague to respond to, if it was. Keep in mind whatever your example is it has to be able to compete with the sheer variety of activities (and variety within those activities) that questing provides.
I encourage you to read all of this:
Tier 1 example (by tier 1 I mean it can be linked to more complexity as you need it) This example is real but might not be 100% accurate.
Guild wants to build a boat: As a result among many things they need: 1. a astrolabe which is a rare drop from a few mob types 2. gun powder which is a crafted item from 3 different source and all three different sources are drops from different mobs OR can be mined for random drops.
guild now gathers together to do various mobs in various places based on what they need to build their ship. Ah however some of those mobs are terrain specific so to get some you have to go do desert and to get others you have to go to arctic.
I just described Darkfall Ship building.
----------------------------------------------- Could it be more complex? OF COURSE. EVE for example if you want to manufacture something you need specific planets to mine and manufacture specific goods. Crafting could involved multiple componets or blessings from an NPC which require you do to various tasks.
What makes it all better is: 1. you dont have to do any of it to still progress, it depends on what you are making or the mats you are selling 2. you dont have to do them in order, you collect the mats in the order you want
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I want to ask the question again just to make sure.
If you took EQ2 exactly as it is and ONLY added roaming mobs then it would have moved from a non-virtual world to a virtual world.
would the same equation apply to WoW as well as most other MMOs?
I think the game you are looking for then is Wurm Online
Mobs in Wurm Online roam, age, die, have babies and you can perform husbandry
I don't believe that is enough. It would have to mimic the hole ecosystem in real life and allow you to do anything you could in real life in the game. That does sound like it's on the right track though depending on what you want in the game. Personally I wouldn't want my character to age and die. I wouldn't mind if NPCs did. From a scientific perspective it would also need to mimic the way wind is generated. The way storms are generated. The way rocks are created. Earth quakes, Volcano's, etc. The way the earth's core spews up materials that are important for our survival. The different minerals that the earth is made up of. The different things we can create using them. Bacteria and how it transformed into complex life. The theory of relativity. I think there is a lot of potential there.
so first you said yes and now you are saying no?
that is fair we all can change our minds but I am curious to make sure I undestand your position because at first you seem to say YES but now you seem to say NO. Because I basically asked the same question twice
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I want to ask the question again just to make sure.
If you took EQ2 exactly as it is and ONLY added roaming mobs then it would have moved from a non-virtual world to a virtual world.
would the same equation apply to WoW as well as most other MMOs?
I think the game you are looking for then is Wurm Online
Mobs in Wurm Online roam, age, die, have babies and you can perform husbandry
I don't believe that is enough. It would have to mimic the hole ecosystem in real life and allow you to do anything you could in real life in the game. That does sound like it's on the right track though depending on what you want in the game. Personally I wouldn't want my character to age and die. I wouldn't mind if NPCs did. From a scientific perspective it would also need to mimic the way wind is generated. The way storms are generated. The way rocks are created. Earth quakes, Volcano's, etc. The way the earth's core spews up materials that are important for our survival. The different minerals that the earth is made up of. The different things we can create using them. Bacteria and how it transformed into complex life. The theory of relativity. I think there is a lot of potential there.
so first you said yes and now you are saying no?
that is fair we all can change our minds but I am curious to make sure I undestand your position because at first you seem to say YES but now you seem to say NO. Because I basically asked the same question twice
So you are saying what qualifies for a virtual world. I would say that it would have to mimic most things in real life.
As Nari pointed out there are some things that probably can be omitted like going to the bathroom.
I'm mostly trying to point out that there are a lot of interesting things about the real world and real life. Not all of it is something that needs to be discarded because it is real.
I haven't tried Wurm Online so I can't comment on weather I think it's a virtual world or not.
So you are saying what qualifies for a virtual world. I would say that it would have to mimic most things in real life.
As Nari pointed out there are some things that probably can be omitted like going to the bathroom.
I'm mostly trying to point out that there are a lot of interesting things about the real world and real life. Not all of it is something that needs to be discarded because it is real.
I haven't tried Wurm Online so I can't comment on weather I think it's a virtual world or not.
fair enough.
I personally think 'virtual worlds' is a hard thing to define but its a bit like porn, you know it when you see it and for me I think there are plenty of virtual worlds.
My MMOs projects and homes are just as real to me as real life is which for me makes it a virtual world so to speak.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
... the sheer variety of activities (and variety within those activities) that questing provides.
We've already deconstructed that subject in this thread and shown questing does not, in fact, provide any greater variety as compared to any other mechanic/system.
It actually lacks rewards in a few different things that other games reward such as guild tier systems and crafting mechanics. In terms of variety questing itself does not introduce anything, it's just a structure in which you are placing variety (and in many cases simplifying choices to very rigid/finite and repeated elements in the case of most MMO quests).
You citing that you have repeated the same nonsense and been corrected elsewhere doesn't magically validate that opinion as anything more than your opinion. Fact remains that questing as it exists in MMORPGs right now is exceptionally finite in form and function.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Comments
Although Darkfall is one of my favorite games ever I really didnt like pvp much. I did like large scale battles but I also knew full well that we didnt 'need' pvp for that.
pvp, slow skill gain, massive skill gain exploits is what killed Darkfall. Most of its design was amazing
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Its a shame such an overall good design has to be ruined by adding free for all dickery to the feature list it happens far to often
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
And not very entertaining to the masses, given that EQ surpassed UO quickly .. and it is just a hack-n-slash progression game.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Otherwise, you don't think i will come back to the MMO genre, do you?
The real problem of modern mmorpgs is that they do not create a world any more. Those NPCs and cities you visited on your journey to become the saviour of world-XYZ mean nothing and you never re-visit them.
The original MMORPGs created a world where iconic NPCs and factions where part of the story and world. You revisited them on a regular basis learning more about their background and the world as you progressed and NPCs changed in the way they reacted to you.
This is what is called a character ARC in movies. It is non-existent in modern MMORPGS. Modern MMORPGS are throwaway content that has no meaning at all.
Challenge yourself and tell me the background story of any recent MMORPG and some noteworthy NPC characters and their quirks or funny encounters/dialogues with them.
*crickets*
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
no .. but there is no reason that a game will be more fun if it has a better virtual world simulation.
Fallout 4 is fun, to me, not because it is realistic (e.g. I don't have to go to bathroom in the game, and i don't find worms in the mud), but because it has good combat gameplay, good scripted stories, and interesting design.
D3 is also fun to me .. it does not even has a world.
The best world "simulator" is the real world, and most cannot wait to leave and go into some unrealistic games to have fun. Heck, you don't even need a world to have fun, as many MMOs have taken that part out, or minimize it.
You forget that there are many things in the real world that are interesting. For instance you seem to only enjoy killing people. That is a pretty one track mind for entertainment.
There are many scientific things in the real world that are quite interesting that you probably don't know about. They would make for a more interesting game than clicking on ! mark and walking to ? I'm sure.
I dont think the lack or containment of roaming mobs really is a qualifier for what is or is not a virtual world. Having said that, Wurm has that.
In other words, if you took EQ2 exactly as it is but made the mobs wander then it would be a virtual world for you?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Things like "bombing, sabotaging, etc" is not more variety, it's different names applied to the same fundamental tasks.
Secondly, you can achieve all such tasks with or without a questing system and reward them equally.
Dungeons generally are directed by quests. Raids are directed by quests as well, but are intended to be repeated multiple times for gear grinding. Not to mention that the tasks between all of those available activities are fundamentally the same (hitting things).
And your perpetual claim about different mobs offering different challenge or refreshment beyond a cosmetic change is a joke.
This right here?
"When in fact in a good MMORPG like WOW, mob A casts a powerful spell that must be interrupted and so it actually is variety compared with mob B which does a powerful forward cone attack which must be dodged. That's variety."
It's plainly not reality. Even a hard hitting normal mob is not going to be that big of a threat unless the player at the helm is incompetent, and then they have other problems. The only time such "variety" comes up is in vet mobs or bosses, and that plays into the progression and variety of the overall game in only the most minimal of senses.
Want variety? How about Asheron's Call where you could level off of dong just about everything in that game? Running around? Sure. Crafting? Yeah. Guild management? Yup. Etc.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Other than creating an ecosystem as mentioned that removes the biggest complaint most people have which is camping mobs.
I think a true ecosystem is harder to create and more involved than most people imagine. That is why it hasn't been done.
It would allow for a lot more choice in terms of what you wanted to do in game.
Creating a realistic solar system would be a challenge in itself. Everything on earth is the way it is because of how everything is setup. It would be difficult to create a simulation of the earth rotating around the sun, the moon around the earth, and other planets, their impact on the planets, etc. in a realistic way.
If you took EQ2 exactly as it is and ONLY added roaming mobs then it would have moved from a non-virtual world to a virtual world.
would the same equation apply to WoW as well as most other MMOs?
I think the game you are looking for then is Wurm Online
Mobs in Wurm Online roam, age, die, have babies and you can perform husbandry
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
It's too vague to respond to, if it was. Keep in mind whatever your example is it has to be able to compete with the sheer variety of activities (and variety within those activities) that questing provides.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Tier 1 example (by tier 1 I mean it can be linked to more complexity as you need it)
This example is real but might not be 100% accurate.
Guild wants to build a boat: As a result among many things they need:
1. a astrolabe which is a rare drop from a few mob types
2. gun powder which is a crafted item from 3 different source and all three different sources are drops from different mobs OR can be mined for random drops.
guild now gathers together to do various mobs in various places based on what they need to build their ship. Ah however some of those mobs are terrain specific so to get some you have to go do desert and to get others you have to go to arctic.
I just described Darkfall Ship building.
-----------------------------------------------
Could it be more complex? OF COURSE. EVE for example if you want to manufacture something you need specific planets to mine and manufacture specific goods.
Crafting could involved multiple componets or blessings from an NPC which require you do to various tasks.
What makes it all better is:
1. you dont have to do any of it to still progress, it depends on what you are making or the mats you are selling
2. you dont have to do them in order, you collect the mats in the order you want
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
that is fair we all can change our minds but I am curious to make sure I undestand your position because at first you seem to say YES but now you seem to say NO. Because I basically asked the same question twice
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
As Nari pointed out there are some things that probably can be omitted like going to the bathroom.
I'm mostly trying to point out that there are a lot of interesting things about the real world and real life. Not all of it is something that needs to be discarded because it is real.
I haven't tried Wurm Online so I can't comment on weather I think it's a virtual world or not.
I personally think 'virtual worlds' is a hard thing to define but its a bit like porn, you know it when you see it and for me I think there are plenty of virtual worlds.
My MMOs projects and homes are just as real to me as real life is which for me makes it a virtual world so to speak.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
It actually lacks rewards in a few different things that other games reward such as guild tier systems and crafting mechanics. In terms of variety questing itself does not introduce anything, it's just a structure in which you are placing variety (and in many cases simplifying choices to very rigid/finite and repeated elements in the case of most MMO quests).
You citing that you have repeated the same nonsense and been corrected elsewhere doesn't magically validate that opinion as anything more than your opinion. Fact remains that questing as it exists in MMORPGs right now is exceptionally finite in form and function.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin