I think for point 1, yes I'd prefer to live the story. Like I mentioned earlier though, for me the technology isn't there for me to want to live in these game worlds. They're nothing like Earth. I can't touch, taste or smell the world I'm in. All I'm doing in these worlds are sitting on my backside with a keyboard in one hand, a mouse in the other. They are games that I play. Not worlds to live in.
For me I need Matrix like technology for me to want to live these stories with no developer made content.
I'm all for giving players the tools to terraform the landscape to create amazing wonders to explore, be it dungeons, cities etc.
However, developers are still in pole position when it comes to making interesting worlds/stories IMO.
I'd like to add I mostly do role on the RP servers as I do like seeing people RP, it does add an element of immersion but I couldn't rely on them for quality story driven content yet.
Ohh I totally just went to that link and got all excited, gave them my email and signed up then they wanted me to know I had to be a founder to download lol. This whole founder thing lol. I get the concept and I like it but it seems so hit or miss.
When I see I'm wearing the exact same set of gear as 3 other people of my class standing at the same quest hub with exactly the same stats, I realize I'm just along for the ride, I'm not really role playing.
And by the 3.5% better gear.
Everyone gets amazing welfare gear over and over that they don't have to do anything except chores to earn, then the people who really work hard and defeat epic monsters are only 3.5% better than them statistically.
If your primary issue is that you look like other players, then that's the first semi-legitimate thing you've said.
Why are you bringing up this 3.5% nonsense again? I literally stepped you through why that's completely wrong by showing you the various tiers of gear, and how quest gear was absolute trash than raid gear (which is 45% better, not 3.5%) What do you possibly have to gain by ignoring the truth?
Quest gear is objectively bad. Why are you calling it "amazing"?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I cant believe people here are defending going on quests and reading the quest story but it is what it is I suppose
Are you being serious or is this sarcastic. If it's for real, then it's just a sad state. What you're talking about actually goes against the roots of the term RPG.
I already explained how directed and lacking in choice content is. It's designed as a specific path that can't be diverged from and doesn't really give you any choice. You can only choose to quest, pvp, group, or raid along a specific path. That is not choice. That is following a specific path that the developers want you to follow of which you can't really deviate from in any way. It's as one of the other posters said. Basically it's a means to control players.
In terms of gear it doesn't really matter. The equipment for solo questing is almost always overpowered for solo questing. You are given a new set of gear that is appropriate for the new quest hub that you enter. You rinse and repeat this until you are max level. So basically you are just getting a new set for you character over and over again proportional to what you are currently facing. There is no real point in it. It's an illusion. There isn't the choice of well I might want to wear the cloth boots of power instead of the plate gauntlets of strength on my warrior because it has the super speed boost. You are basically restricted to specific equipment for your class in most cases. Not all games are like this, but most are. Especially theme parks.
You can't admit those choices exist and then immediately follow it up with "that is not choice". It is choice. Also within questing there is choice of where you go and what you do.
You can't just stare that truth in the face and call it "not choice".
You can't just ignore the way RPGs are made -- with a series of progression matched with a series of scaling challenges -- and claim that none of that matters. Of course progression matters, it's how you keep matched up with the current content!
The only perspective in which it doesn't matter would be a grand nihilistic perspective wherein nothing we do in the game or in life actually matters. And while that's laced with a grain of truth, it's well outside the realm of our discussion.
Within the context of RPGs, gear upgrades matter. There is a point to them: keeping current to the scaling challenges you're facing, and ideally staying ahead of it so you can progress that much more efficiently. These facts aren't really deniable just because you choose to act as those the upgrades don't matter.
I'm sorry to cheapen your nihilistic crisis of faith in RPGs by saying it's not relevant to our discussion, but well...if you're being that nihilistic you knew that posting would be utterly devoid of purpose too, right?
When I think variety I think choice in how to build my character.
In most current themepark MMOs that boils down to building them for Solo, Group, PvP, or Raid. Those are you choices. Depending on the content you choose you will follow the same path and have the same stats/equipment as other people who play through the content. You may have a choice of 3 or 4 sets. That isn't much of a choice.
What I am suggesting is that there are no restrictions on armor. Armor may have an impact on how fast you can move or how fast you can cast a spell, but it doesn't mean you can't wear it. Likewise a warrior could wear pieces of cloth armor or leather armor if they wanted to do so for some reason.
In terms of acquiring armor and weapons I feel it should be via a more open means. Basically you can perform a role in game that earns you money and you can buy it from a vendor, you can craft it yourself, or you can buy it from someone else who is a crafter. This would do away with the kill x monster, turn in, get reward from vendor who mysteriously has an item made just for you and just happens to be appropriate for the area you are in.
Another form of variety is role variety. Right now we are heading towards one role variety. We started with roles like Tank, DPS, Healer, CC, Hybrid, Crafter, Thief, etc. Then it went down to Tank, Healer, DPS. Now we have a bunch of different hybrids and that's it.
Unique cultures. The cultures in game seem to blend together to much. They should have something that separates them more IMO. EQ was a good example for this. You had many different cultures that were all segregated from each other and very unique in the people they had, how they viewed other factions, how they lived, and who they fought against. Freeport was the one place almost any faction could go. That's what made it unique. This also ties in with the ability to change faction. I don't think killing enemies over and over again is necessarily the way to go about it, but the idea was sound. In theory though it did make sense. If a race hates you a lot for your cultures/class/religious beliefs then you will have to do a lot to earn their trust. Part of that may be serving them by killing the local orc clans and driving them back over and over again.
I think any game that encourages you to just go out and explore (with no markers to guide you) offers more variety by default. That means you can choose to go anywhere or do anything. You aren't just following a path and getting specific items tailor made for your class. Having four options is not greater than having an infinite number of possibilities in terms of what you want to do if you have some imagination. I do think the tools in game need to be improved in that regard to make things more interesting, but even without the tools there is a larger number of choices.
Labels are a bane to MMORPGs. Items should not be labeled as a certain class only. Monsters shouldn't be labeled as solo or elite. This beaks up the world into distinct and boring areas instead of one cohesive place where you can find out for yourself what item is good for you or what monster you can fight.
I find these theme parks take out everything that is interesting about the real world (science) in favor of very restricted and easy to follow paths. Is the real world that bad? There are so many interesting things. There is so much you could implement in terms of the mechanics of crafting armor (blacksmithing) in a realistic way. There is so much you could learn about alchemy. There is so much you could learn about weather patterns, traveling, learning to survive in the wilderness, learning to wage war, etc. There is a science to almost everything. I realize there is magic, but that is no excuse to dumb down the game and make it into a game of shinys and dress up. I love magic as much as the next person and also enjoy fake/imagination, but drawing from the real world offers both more variety and makes the game a lot more interesting IMO.
My main point is there really isn't much choice in the current MMOs. I could probably go on with more examples, but the post is already quite long. Almost everything in game is a battle to upgrade items and you have little choice over which items, how to acquire them, and what you are going to wear.
When I see I'm wearing the exact same set of gear as 3 other people of my class standing at the same quest hub with exactly the same stats, I realize I'm just along for the ride, I'm not really role playing.
And by the 3.5% better gear.
Everyone gets amazing welfare gear over and over that they don't have to do anything except chores to earn, then the people who really work hard and defeat epic monsters are only 3.5% better than them statistically.
If your primary issue is that you look like other players, then that's the first semi-legitimate thing you've said.
Why are you bringing up this 3.5% nonsense again? I literally stepped you through why that's completely wrong by showing you the various tiers of gear, and how quest gear was absolute trash than raid gear (which is 45% better, not 3.5%) What do you possibly have to gain by ignoring the truth?
Quest gear is objectively bad. Why are you calling it "amazing"?
Because it makes the content you are doing trivial for solo play?
I already explained how directed and lacking in choice content is. It's designed as a specific path that can't be diverged from and doesn't really give you any choice. You can only choose to quest, pvp, group, or raid along a specific path. That is not choice. That is following a specific path that the developers want you to follow of which you can't really deviate from in any way. It's as one of the other posters said. Basically it's a means to control players.
In terms of gear it doesn't really matter. The equipment for solo questing is almost always overpowered for solo questing. You are given a new set of gear that is appropriate for the new quest hub that you enter. You rinse and repeat this until you are max level. So basically you are just getting a new set for you character over and over again proportional to what you are currently facing. There is no real point in it. It's an illusion. There isn't the choice of well I might want to wear the cloth boots of power instead of the plate gauntlets of strength on my warrior because it has the super speed boost. You are basically restricted to specific equipment for your class in most cases. Not all games are like this, but most are. Especially theme parks.
You can't admit those choices exist and then immediately follow it up with "that is not choice". It is choice. Also within questing there is choice of where you go and what you do.
You can't just stare that truth in the face and call it "not choice".
You can't just ignore the way RPGs are made -- with a series of progression matched with a series of scaling challenges -- and claim that none of that matters. Of course progression matters, it's how you keep matched up with the current content!
The only perspective in which it doesn't matter would be a grand nihilistic perspective wherein nothing we do in the game or in life actually matters. And while that's laced with a grain of truth, it's well outside the realm of our discussion.
Within the context of RPGs, gear upgrades matter. There is a point to them: keeping current to the scaling challenges you're facing, and ideally staying ahead of it so you can progress that much more efficiently. These facts aren't really deniable just because you choose to act as those the upgrades don't matter.
I'm sorry to cheapen your nihilistic crisis of faith in RPGs by saying it's not relevant to our discussion, but well...if you're being that nihilistic you knew that posting would be utterly devoid of purpose too, right?
If the bolded part wasn't true i'd agree with you Axehilt, but unfortunatey modern MMORPGs are designed as Flyte27 describes. They are linear story-driven questing to the end with very little actual choice from a players side.
Flyte27 a man faced with life in prision has a 'choice' but its really not what we are talking about here is it? I think both of you guys need to play an MMO that has no raiding and no questing to perhaps understand how antiquated, overdone and limited the old model of MMO play actually is.
A lot of the issues and concerns in this thread have already been solved by OTHER MMOs you guys are clearly not playing
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
When I see I'm wearing the exact same set of gear as 3 other people of my class standing at the same quest hub with exactly the same stats, I realize I'm just along for the ride, I'm not really role playing.
And by the 3.5% better gear.
Everyone gets amazing welfare gear over and over that they don't have to do anything except chores to earn, then the people who really work hard and defeat epic monsters are only 3.5% better than them statistically.
If your primary issue is that you look like other players, then that's the first semi-legitimate thing you've said.
Why are you bringing up this 3.5% nonsense again? I literally stepped you through why that's completely wrong by showing you the various tiers of gear, and how quest gear was absolute trash than raid gear (which is 45% better, not 3.5%) What do you possibly have to gain by ignoring the truth?
Quest gear is objectively bad. Why are you calling it "amazing"?
I'm not sure you realize this since you are quoting these specific numbers, but there is more than one MMO in the world. Many of them (horizontal progression) give you gear that is top end from questing, others give you gear that is very slightly worse than top end (i.e. swtor) from questing, others have a huge gap between most quest gear and the next tier of gear, but even WoW had (not sure about last few years) quests that rewarded gear on par with dungeon gear (not every quest but some).
Did I miss something because I think that guy was talking about all MMOs not just the one I assume you are talking about.
When I see I'm wearing the exact same set of gear as 3 other people of my class standing at the same quest hub with exactly the same stats, I realize I'm just along for the ride, I'm not really role playing.
And by the 3.5% better gear.
Everyone gets amazing welfare gear over and over that they don't have to do anything except chores to earn, then the people who really work hard and defeat epic monsters are only 3.5% better than them statistically.
If your primary issue is that you look like other players, then that's the first semi-legitimate thing you've said.
Why are you bringing up this 3.5% nonsense again? I literally stepped you through why that's completely wrong by showing you the various tiers of gear, and how quest gear was absolute trash than raid gear (which is 45% better, not 3.5%) What do you possibly have to gain by ignoring the truth?
Quest gear is objectively bad. Why are you calling it "amazing"?
I'm not sure you realize this since you are quoting these specific numbers, but there is more than one MMO in the world. Many of them (horizontal progression) give you gear that is top end from questing, others give you gear that is very slightly worse than top end (i.e. swtor) from questing, others have a huge gap between most quest gear and the next tier of gear, but even WoW had (not sure about last few years) quests that rewarded gear on par with dungeon gear (not every quest but some).
Did I miss something because I think that guy was talking about all MMOs not just the one I assume you are talking about.
and some of them arent even focused on gear...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
when I read these key words I know the player is stuck in antiquated MMO design. Gear Raiding Questing
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I agree with the OP, maybe not the pvp stuff I donno questing seems to me to be mostly centered in the PVE side of things.... But I think that developers often use quests now as a filler to buffer content when they can only make so much interesting content and are unable or unwilling to keep up with the demand of their consumers. This is why there are so many click the shinies and take the trash out quests these days, the amount of competition in the mmo genre is a double edge sword.
When I think variety I think choice in how to build my character.
In most current themepark MMOs that boils down to building them for Solo, Group, PvP, or Raid. Those are you choices. Depending on the content you choose you will follow the same path and have the same stats/equipment as other people who play through the content. You may have a choice of 3 or 4 sets. That isn't much of a choice.
What I am suggesting is that there are no restrictions on armor. Armor may have an impact on how fast you can move or how fast you can cast a spell, but it doesn't mean you can't wear it. Likewise a warrior could wear pieces of cloth armor or leather armor if they wanted to do so for some reason.
In terms of acquiring armor and weapons I feel it should be via a more open means. Basically you can perform a role in game that earns you money and you can buy it from a vendor, you can craft it yourself, or you can buy it from someone else who is a crafter. This would do away with the kill x monster, turn in, get reward from vendor who mysteriously has an item made just for you and just happens to be appropriate for the area you are in.
Another form of variety is role variety. Right now we are heading towards one role variety. We started with roles like Tank, DPS, Healer, CC, Hybrid, Crafter, Thief, etc. Then it went down to Tank, Healer, DPS. Now we have a bunch of different hybrids and that's it.
Unique cultures. The cultures in game seem to blend together to much. They should have something that separates them more IMO. EQ was a good example for this. You had many different cultures that were all segregated from each other and very unique in the people they had, how they viewed other factions, how they lived, and who they fought against. Freeport was the one place almost any faction could go. That's what made it unique. This also ties in with the ability to change faction. I don't think killing enemies over and over again is necessarily the way to go about it, but the idea was sound. In theory though it did make sense. If a race hates you a lot for your cultures/class/religious beliefs then you will have to do a lot to earn their trust. Part of that may be serving them by killing the local orc clans and driving them back over and over again.
I think any game that encourages you to just go out and explore (with no markers to guide you) offers more variety by default. That means you can choose to go anywhere or do anything. You aren't just following a path and getting specific items tailor made for your class. Having four options is not greater than having an infinite number of possibilities in terms of what you want to do if you have some imagination. I do think the tools in game need to be improved in that regard to make things more interesting, but even without the tools there is a larger number of choices.
Labels are a bane to MMORPGs. Items should not be labeled as a certain class only. Monsters shouldn't be labeled as solo or elite. This beaks up the world into distinct and boring areas instead of one cohesive place where you can find out for yourself what item is good for you or what monster you can fight.
I find these theme parks take out everything that is interesting about the real world (science) in favor of very restricted and easy to follow paths. Is the real world that bad? There are so many interesting things. There is so much you could implement in terms of the mechanics of crafting armor (blacksmithing) in a realistic way. There is so much you could learn about alchemy. There is so much you could learn about weather patterns, traveling, learning to survive in the wilderness, learning to wage war, etc. There is a science to almost everything. I realize there is magic, but that is no excuse to dumb down the game and make it into a game of shinys and dress up. I love magic as much as the next person and also enjoy fake/imagination, but drawing from the real world offers both more variety and makes the game a lot more interesting IMO.
My main point is there really isn't much choice in the current MMOs. I could probably go on with more examples, but the post is already quite long. Almost everything in game is a battle to upgrade items and you have little choice over which items, how to acquire them, and what you are going to wear.
You're wrong because you don't get to define variety, or choice. These words have meaning. Questing is objectively more varied as we've covered in previous threads. Questing involves some choice, as we've covered in this thread. You can claim it's not enough choice, and say you prefer that oldschool game where the game rules said that killing rats for 8 hours (objectively less variety) was how you level efficiently, and you prefer that because you could choose to waste time traveling to go kill boars instead (taking 9 hours to level.)
You're wrong because Quest, PVP, Dungeon, Raid is a gross oversimplification. If we apply the same oversimplification to oldschool games you get a choice of: grind. Note how it really doesn't help your case to simplify things to this level -- let's maybe avoid this mistake in the future, yeah?
You're offtopic with the comment about what you can wear. That's not really relevant to the discussion.
You're fine to explain a system for getting items that you enjoy, but you really aren't describing anything significantly different from WOW. WOW provides you with gold, which you can use to buy mediocre vendor gear occasionally (not common (white) items, but in some places you can actually buy a reasonable functional set of greens which are just a step below the quest items of that area -- this is helpful for a character that wants to change specs and get basic functional gear for that spec instead of being gimped.) Additionally WOW's crafted items are quite competitive (my Warlock is currently wearing several crafted pieces and working to upgrade them, which I can do manually or by purchasing them from other players.) My warlock is also wearing an item or two gained from questing (as I just resubbed to finally try the Shipyard/Tanaan content they've added, and those areas offer better gear.) There's no logical reason item rewards can't be part of the rewards of those quests, you're just being arbitrary.
You're fine to explain other things you enjoy in a game. But all that stuff is mostly a distraction from the topic at hand.
You're wrong to imply that any early games encouraged you to "just go out and explore", and by extension imply exploration isn't similarly rewarded in quest-based games. Early MMORPGs discouraged exploration in the exact same way -- you have 8 hours of rat-grinding ahead of you, after all, so any time spent exploring is less time spent rat-grinding. Exploration might provide you a little value, but it provides an identical value in quest-based games (in fact finding a new quest off the beaten path means it's actively rewarded; in fact just this morning my Warlock was exploring Tanaan and found several chests, a sword off a dead orc, and a few other unique-placed items that I'd only have found by exploring.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You're wrong because you don't get to define variety, or choice. These words have meaning. Questing is objectively more varied as we've covered in previous threads. Questing involves some choice, as we've covered in this thread. You can claim it's not enough choice, and say you prefer that oldschool game where the game rules said that killing rats for 8 hours (objectively less variety) was how you level efficiently, and you prefer that because you could choose to waste time traveling to go kill boars instead (taking 9 hours to level.)
OK
So you opinion is that there is more variety in terms of following a predefined path where you have no choice over anything. Basically that is what quests in current MMOs are. You click on NPC, you go to do a task, you come back, you turn in, you get a reward. The reward is specifically for your class. There is really no choice there. I guess you think variety is to have do a fetch quest or that you can choose to do this quest first in x zone instead of another quest. In the end you do them all the same as the person before you regardless of if you do them in a different order.
I'm not really supporting old school design as much as freedom of choice. Yes in old games you could go out and be a hunter, picked peoples pockets all day, hunted down foul orcs to save your country, built a house, or any number of different things. I see your point of perspective, but this methodology allows for far more freedom then questing. You aren't being told what to do. You choose for yourself.
You're wrong because Quest, PVP, Dungeon, Raid is a gross oversimplification. If we apply the same oversimplification to oldschool games you get a choice of: grind. Note how it really doesn't help your case to simplify things to this level -- let's maybe avoid this mistake in the future, yeah?
I don't believe it is. There is really only a very limited amount of paths and outcomes. Most people will end up with almost the same equipment. There is no character building.
You're offtopic with the comment about what you can wear. That's not really relevant to the discussion.
This is not off topic. Equipment you can wear has everything to do with variety. Variety you don't get in games with linear questing.
You're fine to explain a system for getting items that you enjoy, but you really aren't describing anything significantly different from WOW. WOW provides you with gold, which you can use to buy mediocre vendor gear occasionally (not common (white) items, but in some places you can actually buy a reasonable functional set of greens which are just a step below the quest items of that area -- this is helpful for a character that wants to change specs and get basic functional gear for that spec instead of being gimped.) Additionally WOW's crafted items are quite competitive (my Warlock is currently wearing several crafted pieces and working to upgrade them, which I can do manually or by purchasing them from other players.) My warlock is also wearing an item or two gained from questing (as I just resubbed to finally try the Shipyard/Tanaan content they've added, and those areas offer better gear.) There's no logical reason item rewards can't be part of the rewards of those quests, you're just being arbitrary.
I'll conceded that you have the choice to buy from a vendor in WoW if you want too, but there is no point. The game is setup for you to follow the path of questing and buying the gear really serves no purpose. I've seen people in WoW win fights against solo NPCs barehanded with no armor. Again the variety is extremely limited and even if you brought the items from the vendor it would still be class restricted in most cases since classes are forced to spec a certain way (tank, dps, healer) depending on what you choose. WoW actually did have some real variety in vanilla. Basically you could pick and choose talents from different trees. You didn't have to choose tank, healer, DPS. You could mix them all together how ever you wanted. That is real variety.
You're fine to explain other things you enjoy in a game. But all that stuff is mostly a distraction from the topic at hand.
Actually what I was talking about was variety. Variety that is missing from games that have solo questing. Considering we are talking about why games without questing might be better in some ways then any issue that would add variety should be included.
You're wrong to imply that any early games encouraged you to "just go out and explore", and by extension imply exploration isn't similarly rewarded in quest-based games. Early MMORPGs discouraged exploration in the exact same way -- you have 8 hours of rat-grinding ahead of you, after all, so any time spent exploring is less time spent rat-grinding. Exploration might provide you a little value, but it provides an identical value in quest-based games (in fact finding a new quest off the beaten path means it's actively rewarded; in fact just this morning my Warlock was exploring Tanaan and found several chests, a sword off a dead orc, and a few other unique-placed items that I'd only have found by exploring.)
You are both right and wrong here. Old MMOs discouraged you to explore in some ways. Yes there was a death penalty so the path of least resistance was to sit in an area and grind. None the less people who played those games often went to many different zones. There were many different areas for a level range. Not all of them were dangerous. There was a large variety of mobs and items they dropped. What you killed was meaningful in many ways. It had an impact on your faction. You had to explore to first to find out where was a good place to camp. None of it was directed. Exploring is worthless in a questing MMO. To imply that there is exploring in a game with a GPS that shows you where to go is a joke. You are just following a linear path through the game that is crafted to take you from start to finish.
I'm sorry, but it would seem someone out there dislikes when their opinions are challenged.
Fact is, a linearly defined experience is exactly that, linear.
Questing isn't any more varied than it's ever been, it's still fetching, slaying, and being a gohper. The only thing that has changed is how cinematic some of these events can get. Even in the case of WoW this "cinematic" flair is far from consistent as well, you have one-off quests that do something special and you're back into the treadmill of daily quests and gear grind quests.
The suggestion that you get better gear from non-quests is just an exacerbation of the very fundamental problem, trading one monotony for another. For one that espouses how quests being so great for variety, it's ironic to turn around and point out that the best gear comes from repeating the same content over and over again.
And this directly impacts progression and challenge in the game(s) as well. Under most circumstances the level of the gear is matched to the level of the quest which is matched to the level of the enemies and their subsequent difficulty.
As pointed out prior, this leaves most players in a situation where their only measure of progress is that their stats are higher than the enemies from five quests ago, and that the enemies they have to face up again have slightly bigger numbers than what their current gear provides. From the actual play experience this falls remarkably flat, as all the numbers are going up relative to each-other, so the challenge presented to the player never changes. There is no learning curve to that, there is no progress. Things sit at the same status quo as ever.
To sit there and claim the opinion that a linear system is somehow more freeing to players is an utter disregard for logic and sanity. And I can't believe there is an abuse of power to defend such an opinion.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I'm sorry, but it would seem someone out there dislikes when their opinions are challenged.
Fact is, a linearly defined experience is exactly that, linear.
Questing isn't any more varied than it's ever been, it's still fetching, slaying, and being a gohper. The only thing that has changed is how cinematic some of these events can get. Even in the case of WoW this "cinematic" flair is far from consistent as well, you have one-off quests that do something special and you're back into the treadmill of daily quests and gear grind quests.
The suggestion that you get better gear from non-quests is just an exacerbation of the very fundamental problem, trading one monotony for another. For one that espouses how quests being so great for variety, it's ironic to turn around and point out that the best gear comes from repeating the same content over and over again.
And this directly impacts progression and challenge in the game(s) as well. Under most circumstances the level of the gear is matched to the level of the quest which is matched to the level of the enemies and their subsequent difficulty.
As pointed out prior, this leaves most players in a situation where their only measure of progress is that their stats are higher than the enemies from five quests ago, and that the enemies they have to face up again have slightly bigger numbers than what their current gear provides. From the actual play experience this falls remarkably flat, as all the numbers are going up relative to each-other, so the challenge presented to the player never changes. There is no learning curve to that, there is no progress. Things sit at the same status quo as ever.
To sit there and claim the opinion that a linear system is somehow more freeing to players is an utter disregard for logic and sanity. And I can't believe there is an abuse of power to defend such an opinion.
I don't know why people deny challenge is largely flat in MMORPG for 99% of the game. Leveling doesn't even make sense why max level pre expansion 30 foot demons are weaker than new regulr alpine wolves in the expansion. Oh they're higher level. Your power progression is so neatly laid out your perfectly geared to enemies your level and fight the same from level 10 to 100.
And yes the illusion of variety is very contained. You're going to do 1 of 7 things your told to do. Those things are many times very menial task. It's not the highlight of my night I was forced to pluck 5 mushrooms while killing 10 turtles and collecting 5 shells around said mushrooms. I just delivered a medicine to Old Man Johnson for his jock itch and hemorrhoids... how fun.
I have a subscription to DFUW. It's the closest thing I can find, I don't play it because it's too stressful. I love the grinding, the crafting, the prowess system. It just stresses me out and I'm a nervous wreck when I'm playing because if someone kills me I have to go get another full set of armor out because you drop everything. I have like 15 gear bags prepared and ready to go, I just can't shake the constant stress and anxiety that goes with it. Not to mention the community gets pretty ugly about things and it's obsessively political.
You don't see people admitting this fact too often and I commend you for it.
The simple fact is, a lot more people feel just as you do when playing these type of games, ( myself included ). Quite simply the hue and cry for danger and risk/reward in games, that often permeates this forum, does not represent the majority.
And that quite simply is the problem MMO's face today. In most competitive MMO's, it's like you are the average Joe going up against the pro's. Thats fine for a simple one time shot at glory, but does not make for long term commitment.
And to those that say group with good players, well that is no different. The stress is still there. No one is going to carry you on their back, while the other guys take advantage of your deficiences.
No wonder you are stressed.
As for your initial post, it hasn't ruined questing for the majority. But again, you can't mix the pro's and the Joe's in a game without diluting either side's experience. The lack of challenge is due to the lack of people wanting challenge. So sorry if you fit into the minority. Your games are out there, just in numbers relative to your minority status.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I don't know why people deny challenge is largely flat in MMORPG for 99% of the game. Leveling doesn't even make sense why max level pre expansion 30 foot demons are weaker than new regulr alpine wolves in the expansion. Oh they're higher level. Your power progression is so neatly laid out your perfectly geared to enemies your level and fight the same from level 10 to 100.
And yes the illusion of variety is very contained. You're going to do 1 of 7 things your told to do. Those things are many times very menial task. It's not the highlight of my night I was forced to pluck 5 mushrooms while killing 10 turtles and collecting 5 shells around said mushrooms. I just delivered a medicine to Old Man Johnson for his jock itch and hemorrhoids... how fun.
Had to chuckle...
Your comments ring so true.
It's so sad that the idea of a quest has degenerated to such depths. When I think about quests I think Jason and his quest to recover the Golden Fleece, or Frodo's quest to destroy the One Ring. Not filling some dumb jerkoff's shopping list.
Creativity is such a hard to come by commodity these days.
In my honest opinion, quests are needed in today's games. Simply because some gamers like to follow a story. The problem lies, again IMO, in whether the game offers alternate paths of 'progression'. I won't argue how to define progression, or nitpick the rewards given by quests. If a player can play in other ways and level (the game's mechanic) then choice is there even if some don't wish to see it. If you are to make a niche game where 'this' or 'that' shouldn't be allowed, then by all means wait for it.
I have no problems with quests as long as they are entertaining, and I have alternatives as opposed to only grabbing quests to further my character. Since we aren't talking about any specific games here, I'm quite content not having to defend my preferences in regards with some detractors here.
That's fine if the quests have a good story for you to invest into with those quests, but that can't be said of the bulk of the busy work being done in most cases. There's one-offs that might be interesting or greater arcs where something you might find interesting is going on, but there's only so many times you can do a filler quest for an entirely forgettable reason before it's as redundant as anything else.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
That's fine if the quests have a good story for you to invest into with those quests, but that can't be said of the bulk of the busy work being done in most cases. There's one-offs that might be interesting or greater arcs where something you might find interesting is going on, but there's only so many times you can do a filler quest for an entirely forgettable reason before it's as redundant as anything else.
I can certainly agree that many quests to be mundane tasks at best, and that could be cited as a game's design flaw. Still, many of these themeparks have the goal of getting you to max level to start another type of progression/grind, that of raiding and/or PvP. Filler along the way will be defined as bad or good depending on the player. As mentioned, if there are other ways to 'entertain' myself til then, great. If not, then I probably wouldn't be playing it. I also wouldn't be playing said game if I didn't at least inform myself as to what to expect from 'endgame' in order to know what's in store. Maybe that why some prefer to be 'Alt-oholics' in some games. Heh
If you're building the game as a rush to "endgame" sure, but endgame is a sort of problem unto itself on MMOs since it's the biggest killer of content value by making the bulk of the "fun" focused on a remarkably narrow sliver of the overall content.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
If you're building the game as a rush to "endgame" sure, but endgame is a sort of problem unto itself on MMOs since it's the biggest killer of content value by making the bulk of the "fun" focused on a remarkably narrow sliver of the overall content.
IMHO
The term "endgame" is the worst thing to ever happen to MMORPG's
Comments
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Why are you bringing up this 3.5% nonsense again? I literally stepped you through why that's completely wrong by showing you the various tiers of gear, and how quest gear was absolute trash than raid gear (which is 45% better, not 3.5%) What do you possibly have to gain by ignoring the truth?
Quest gear is objectively bad. Why are you calling it "amazing"?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Are you being serious or is this sarcastic. If it's for real, then it's just a sad state. What you're talking about actually goes against the roots of the term RPG.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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In most current themepark MMOs that boils down to building them for Solo, Group, PvP, or Raid. Those are you choices. Depending on the content you choose you will follow the same path and have the same stats/equipment as other people who play through the content. You may have a choice of 3 or 4 sets. That isn't much of a choice.
What I am suggesting is that there are no restrictions on armor. Armor may have an impact on how fast you can move or how fast you can cast a spell, but it doesn't mean you can't wear it. Likewise a warrior could wear pieces of cloth armor or leather armor if they wanted to do so for some reason.
In terms of acquiring armor and weapons I feel it should be via a more open means. Basically you can perform a role in game that earns you money and you can buy it from a vendor, you can craft it yourself, or you can buy it from someone else who is a crafter. This would do away with the kill x monster, turn in, get reward from vendor who mysteriously has an item made just for you and just happens to be appropriate for the area you are in.
Another form of variety is role variety. Right now we are heading towards one role variety. We started with roles like Tank, DPS, Healer, CC, Hybrid, Crafter, Thief, etc. Then it went down to Tank, Healer, DPS. Now we have a bunch of different hybrids and that's it.
Unique cultures. The cultures in game seem to blend together to much. They should have something that separates them more IMO. EQ was a good example for this. You had many different cultures that were all segregated from each other and very unique in the people they had, how they viewed other factions, how they lived, and who they fought against. Freeport was the one place almost any faction could go. That's what made it unique. This also ties in with the ability to change faction. I don't think killing enemies over and over again is necessarily the way to go about it, but the idea was sound. In theory though it did make sense. If a race hates you a lot for your cultures/class/religious beliefs then you will have to do a lot to earn their trust. Part of that may be serving them by killing the local orc clans and driving them back over and over again.
I think any game that encourages you to just go out and explore (with no markers to guide you) offers more variety by default. That means you can choose to go anywhere or do anything. You aren't just following a path and getting specific items tailor made for your class. Having four options is not greater than having an infinite number of possibilities in terms of what you want to do if you have some imagination. I do think the tools in game need to be improved in that regard to make things more interesting, but even without the tools there is a larger number of choices.
Labels are a bane to MMORPGs. Items should not be labeled as a certain class only. Monsters shouldn't be labeled as solo or elite. This beaks up the world into distinct and boring areas instead of one cohesive place where you can find out for yourself what item is good for you or what monster you can fight.
I find these theme parks take out everything that is interesting about the real world (science) in favor of very restricted and easy to follow paths. Is the real world that bad? There are so many interesting things. There is so much you could implement in terms of the mechanics of crafting armor (blacksmithing) in a realistic way. There is so much you could learn about alchemy. There is so much you could learn about weather patterns, traveling, learning to survive in the wilderness, learning to wage war, etc. There is a science to almost everything. I realize there is magic, but that is no excuse to dumb down the game and make it into a game of shinys and dress up. I love magic as much as the next person and also enjoy fake/imagination, but drawing from the real world offers both more variety and makes the game a lot more interesting IMO.
My main point is there really isn't much choice in the current MMOs. I could probably go on with more examples, but the post is already quite long. Almost everything in game is a battle to upgrade items and you have little choice over which items, how to acquire them, and what you are going to wear.
I think both of you guys need to play an MMO that has no raiding and no questing to perhaps understand how antiquated, overdone and limited the old model of MMO play actually is.
A lot of the issues and concerns in this thread have already been solved by OTHER MMOs you guys are clearly not playing
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Did I miss something because I think that guy was talking about all MMOs not just the one I assume you are talking about.
when I read these key words I know the player is stuck in antiquated MMO design.
Gear
Raiding
Questing
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You're wrong because Quest, PVP, Dungeon, Raid is a gross oversimplification. If we apply the same oversimplification to oldschool games you get a choice of: grind. Note how it really doesn't help your case to simplify things to this level -- let's maybe avoid this mistake in the future, yeah?
You're offtopic with the comment about what you can wear. That's not really relevant to the discussion.
You're fine to explain a system for getting items that you enjoy, but you really aren't describing anything significantly different from WOW. WOW provides you with gold, which you can use to buy mediocre vendor gear occasionally (not common (white) items, but in some places you can actually buy a reasonable functional set of greens which are just a step below the quest items of that area -- this is helpful for a character that wants to change specs and get basic functional gear for that spec instead of being gimped.) Additionally WOW's crafted items are quite competitive (my Warlock is currently wearing several crafted pieces and working to upgrade them, which I can do manually or by purchasing them from other players.) My warlock is also wearing an item or two gained from questing (as I just resubbed to finally try the Shipyard/Tanaan content they've added, and those areas offer better gear.) There's no logical reason item rewards can't be part of the rewards of those quests, you're just being arbitrary.
You're fine to explain other things you enjoy in a game. But all that stuff is mostly a distraction from the topic at hand.
You're wrong to imply that any early games encouraged you to "just go out and explore", and by extension imply exploration isn't similarly rewarded in quest-based games. Early MMORPGs discouraged exploration in the exact same way -- you have 8 hours of rat-grinding ahead of you, after all, so any time spent exploring is less time spent rat-grinding. Exploration might provide you a little value, but it provides an identical value in quest-based games (in fact finding a new quest off the beaten path means it's actively rewarded; in fact just this morning my Warlock was exploring Tanaan and found several chests, a sword off a dead orc, and a few other unique-placed items that I'd only have found by exploring.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So you opinion is that there is more variety in terms of following a predefined path where you have no choice over anything. Basically that is what quests in current MMOs are. You click on NPC, you go to do a task, you come back, you turn in, you get a reward. The reward is specifically for your class. There is really no choice there. I guess you think variety is to have do a fetch quest or that you can choose to do this quest first in x zone instead of another quest. In the end you do them all the same as the person before you regardless of if you do them in a different order.
I'm not really supporting old school design as much as freedom of choice. Yes in old games you could go out and be a hunter, picked peoples pockets all day, hunted down foul orcs to save your country, built a house, or any number of different things. I see your point of perspective, but this methodology allows for far more freedom then questing. You aren't being told what to do. You choose for yourself.
I don't believe it is. There is really only a very limited amount of paths and outcomes. Most people will end up with almost the same equipment. There is no character building.
This is not off topic. Equipment you can wear has everything to do with variety. Variety you don't get in games with linear questing.
I'll conceded that you have the choice to buy from a vendor in WoW if you want too, but there is no point. The game is setup for you to follow the path of questing and buying the gear really serves no purpose. I've seen people in WoW win fights against solo NPCs barehanded with no armor. Again the variety is extremely limited and even if you brought the items from the vendor it would still be class restricted in most cases since classes are forced to spec a certain way (tank, dps, healer) depending on what you choose. WoW actually did have some real variety in vanilla. Basically you could pick and choose talents from different trees. You didn't have to choose tank, healer, DPS. You could mix them all together how ever you wanted. That is real variety.
Actually what I was talking about was variety. Variety that is missing from games that have solo questing. Considering we are talking about why games without questing might be better in some ways then any issue that would add variety should be included.
You are both right and wrong here. Old MMOs discouraged you to explore in some ways. Yes there was a death penalty so the path of least resistance was to sit in an area and grind. None the less people who played those games often went to many different zones. There were many different areas for a level range. Not all of them were dangerous. There was a large variety of mobs and items they dropped. What you killed was meaningful in many ways. It had an impact on your faction. You had to explore to first to find out where was a good place to camp. None of it was directed. Exploring is worthless in a questing MMO. To imply that there is exploring in a game with a GPS that shows you where to go is a joke. You are just following a linear path through the game that is crafted to take you from start to finish.
Fact is, a linearly defined experience is exactly that, linear.
Questing isn't any more varied than it's ever been, it's still fetching, slaying, and being a gohper. The only thing that has changed is how cinematic some of these events can get. Even in the case of WoW this "cinematic" flair is far from consistent as well, you have one-off quests that do something special and you're back into the treadmill of daily quests and gear grind quests.
The suggestion that you get better gear from non-quests is just an exacerbation of the very fundamental problem, trading one monotony for another. For one that espouses how quests being so great for variety, it's ironic to turn around and point out that the best gear comes from repeating the same content over and over again.
And this directly impacts progression and challenge in the game(s) as well. Under most circumstances the level of the gear is matched to the level of the quest which is matched to the level of the enemies and their subsequent difficulty.
As pointed out prior, this leaves most players in a situation where their only measure of progress is that their stats are higher than the enemies from five quests ago, and that the enemies they have to face up again have slightly bigger numbers than what their current gear provides. From the actual play experience this falls remarkably flat, as all the numbers are going up relative to each-other, so the challenge presented to the player never changes. There is no learning curve to that, there is no progress. Things sit at the same status quo as ever.
To sit there and claim the opinion that a linear system is somehow more freeing to players is an utter disregard for logic and sanity. And I can't believe there is an abuse of power to defend such an opinion.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
And yes the illusion of variety is very contained. You're going to do 1 of 7 things your told to do. Those things are many times very menial task. It's not the highlight of my night I was forced to pluck 5 mushrooms while killing 10 turtles and collecting 5 shells around said mushrooms. I just delivered a medicine to Old Man Johnson for his jock itch and hemorrhoids... how fun.
The simple fact is, a lot more people feel just as you do when playing these type of games, ( myself included ). Quite simply the hue and cry for danger and risk/reward in games, that often permeates this forum, does not represent the majority.
And that quite simply is the problem MMO's face today. In most competitive MMO's, it's like you are the average Joe going up against the pro's. Thats fine for a simple one time shot at glory, but does not make for long term commitment.
And to those that say group with good players, well that is no different. The stress is still there. No one is going to carry you on their back, while the other guys take advantage of your deficiences.
No wonder you are stressed.
As for your initial post, it hasn't ruined questing for the majority. But again, you can't mix the pro's and the Joe's in a game without diluting either side's experience. The lack of challenge is due to the lack of people wanting challenge. So sorry if you fit into the minority. Your games are out there, just in numbers relative to your minority status.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Your comments ring so true.
It's so sad that the idea of a quest has degenerated to such depths. When I think about quests I think Jason and his quest to recover the Golden Fleece, or Frodo's quest to destroy the One Ring. Not filling some dumb jerkoff's shopping list.
Creativity is such a hard to come by commodity these days.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
The problem lies, again IMO, in whether the game offers alternate paths of 'progression'. I won't argue how to define progression, or nitpick the rewards given by quests.
If a player can play in other ways and level (the game's mechanic) then choice is there even if some don't wish to see it.
If you are to make a niche game where 'this' or 'that' shouldn't be allowed, then by all means wait for it.
I have no problems with quests as long as they are entertaining, and I have alternatives as opposed to only grabbing quests to further my character. Since we aren't talking about any specific games here, I'm quite content not having to defend my preferences in regards with some detractors here.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Filler along the way will be defined as bad or good depending on the player. As mentioned, if there are other ways to 'entertain' myself til then, great. If not, then I probably wouldn't be playing it.
I also wouldn't be playing said game if I didn't at least inform myself as to what to expect from 'endgame' in order to know what's in store. Maybe that why some prefer to be 'Alt-oholics' in some games. Heh
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The term "endgame" is the worst thing to ever happen to MMORPG's
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee