Charge Back and Refunds

JohnP0100

The 'Blame the customer / victim' narrative going on here is hilarious.

If I buy Product A and the company publicly declares they are making Product B instead, how is that MY fault?
How do I as a customer get Product A as promised when I got charged?
I can't, because the company publicly declared they aren't making Product A.

JohnP0100

The donation angle is factually false.
CIG doesn't consider it a donation nor is it in any of the transaction / official information.
It actually is illegal for CIG as they charge VAT (value added Tax) which you cannot do if it is a donation. Well, they can but that means they are breaking the Tax law which most countries's tax department would have a problem with; as in the 'Can we see you book please?' type.

Distopia

Talonsin said:

Then let me ask you, why are some people having an issue getting refunds?  If everything was going great and the company had tons of money coming in and in the bank as many people claim, why the resistance to refunds? 

If only a few people are claiming refunds, whats the big deal?  Why the big resistance to refunds if everything is fine at CIG?

Are folks actually having issues? I see people saying they just got one fairly regularly around here. Remember just because you saw a post where someone complained about not getting one, doesn't mean they didn't ever get one... Eadan just this week started a thread and complained about not getting one, he did end up getting one. They didn't contact him about it, just sent it when it went through apparently.  

Distopia

JohnP0100 said:

The 'Blame the customer / victim' narrative going on here is hilarious.

If I buy Product A and the company publicly declares they are making Product B instead, how is that MY fault?
How do I as a customer get Product A as promised when I got charged?
I can't, because the company publicly declared they aren't making Product A.

Again didn't they offer refunds to those who ordered A?

JohnP0100

Distopia said:

JohnP0100 said:

The 'Blame the customer / victim' narrative going on here is hilarious.

If I buy Product A and the company publicly declares they are making Product B instead, how is that MY fault?
How do I as a customer get Product A as promised when I got charged?
I can't, because the company publicly declared they aren't making Product A.

Again didn't they offer refunds to those who ordered A?

Not me. And according to some posters here and reddit, CIG is now refusing all refunds. Hence the thread.

Erillion

Talonsin said:

Then let me ask you, why are some people having an issue getting refunds?

Why don't you ask that in the next "10 for the Chairman" thread ?

I gave you my personal opinion.

If you look for an official answer, CIG is the way to go.


Have fun

Dakeru

Erillion said:

Talonsin said:

Then let me ask you, why are some people having an issue getting refunds?

Why don't you ask that in the next "10 for the Chairman" thread ?

I gave you my personal opinion.

If you look for an official answer, CIG is the way to go.


Have fun

Hmm that's a good idea.
I expect him to answer directly, honest and non-evasive.

Brenics

Dakeru said:

Erillion said:

Talonsin said:

Then let me ask you, why are some people having an issue getting refunds?

Why don't you ask that in the next "10 for the Chairman" thread ?

I gave you my personal opinion.

If you look for an official answer, CIG is the way to go.


Have fun

Hmm that's a good idea.
I expect him to answer directly, honest and non-evasive.

LOL you made me cough up my pop. 

Talonsin

Erillion said:

Talonsin said:

Then let me ask you, why are some people having an issue getting refunds?

Why don't you ask that in the next "10 for the Chairman" thread ?

Right, like that question would get picked to answer. 

Talonsin

Distopia said:

Are folks actually having issues? I see people saying they just got one fairly regularly around here. Remember just because you saw a post where someone complained about not getting one, doesn't mean they didn't ever get one... Eadan just this week started a thread and complained about not getting one, he did end up getting one. They didn't contact him about it, just sent it when it went through apparently.  

I frequent several sites and it "seems" like every site has a report about a person who was refused a refund.  Sadly, I dont have any actual facts, only CIG could provide that, just that it seems a recurring issue on every gaming forum.  I'm sure some people are getting them but there is a refusal letter that has been shown around the internet that would seem to prove that at least "some" people are being denied a refund.

Brenics

Distopia said:

Brenics said:

Distopia said:

I don't think it has to do with conviction, it is more a trust thing. After this long it is clear Chris Roberts can't be trusted. Like people he worked with at Origin and other places, all say the samething, CR can't be trusted to stay on his own plans. He has always wanted to change things in either his game's or his movie's. I know I keep repeating that fact but it seems that very fact is refused by majority of whiteKnights. 

Have Fun!

You say this like there is actual documented proof he is as you say (the bits about origin and behind the scenes antics, etc..)... IF so I have to ask how he raised 100 mil to begin with?  Some links would help as well. I know there is a poster who consistently says this, that doesn't exactly make it true... It's not exactly evidence either. 

Secondly this isn't just about Chris Roberts, he has a rather large staff in place, most of which I'd assume want to get this game done, because it's as good for them as it is for him to do so... 

Trust is most certainly an important factor in Crowdfunding, which I would assume would lead to folks researching a bit about who they're dealing with. It's just weird that he's known to be as you say.. Yet can rake in so much cash at the same time. 

It has been documented very well in articles about CR. If you want to ignore it that is fine. But I laugh at people asking for proof when it has already been done in other threads. You really should read up and do your own research. In fact anyone that has gave or thinking of being part of this, should really do research on this guy. 

Dahkoht

Burntvet said:

I wrote this in the other thread but it is just as applicable here:

Honestly, the CC company doesn't care... until you pay your bill, it is their money in play, and they are only too happy to chargeback. They take your word for it, because there is no incentive for them to take a vendors word for it. It is you that is the customer.

I have done maybe a dozen chargebacks in 20+ years of using a CC, and I have never been refused by the CC company and I have never, ever had a chargeback adversely affect my credit. (For that, the average customer has to charge back several times a year, for several years in a row before there is any negative effect at all.)

So the only people that try to scare people from charging back are morons who do not understand how things actually work, or the vendors themselves.

And for the record, in the US at least, pre-release software can ALWAYS be charged back, it expressly falls into the definition of an incomplete product (or so says corporate counsel for my company, who had to get involved in a commercial software dispute with a vendor).

Also for the the record, a TOS does not and will never trump existing US law, i.e. UCC regulations governing credit card charge backs.


Edit: Most software companies know that customers are legally allowed to chargeback pre-release software, which is why they do give customers refunds for the same. If they did not, the company would get hit with the chargeback fee on top of the refunded money.

Honestly this should be a sticky for anything regarding chargeback threads. Exact same experience as you myself.

I'm mid 40's , credit score well over 800 , and a revolving credit limit of approaching 500k if I added them together. Use them every month for many thousands and pay them off each month , earns tons of points to pay for vacations and so on.  Every one of my CC companies loves me.

I you are some 20 something college kid with a 500 dollar credit limit on one card and charge 5 chargebacks a year , yes , at some point it might affect your credit.

If you are an adult , with a credit history , and use your CC frequently , CC companies bend over backwards to please you. They don't give a shit about CIG , or any other small company. 

I've charged back Trion for 5 alpha accounts I bought on separate emails to give to friends. With their launch fiasco , I wanted it all back. Called my CC company , and when I gave them the name of who the chargeback was for , she chuckled on the line and said I'm going to go ahead and award this immediately , we have them "flagged". At the same time while she had me on the phone , they raised my limit another 10k and thanked me for my years as a customer. At this exact same time, you had white knight idiots on the forums screaming you couldn't do a chargeback , or if you did it would "ruin" your credit. You couldn't get a house for doing a chargeback to Trion. Chuckle.

Normal chargebacks can take a week to 30 days to finalize , but any I've ever done (20 or so over the years) , have never , EVER been in the companies favor.

You so called financial experts have it wrong. If enough people did chargebacks for purchases for CIG , it wouldn't be CIG raising  a ruckus in court , they would have to start offering refunds on their own , and praying it dies down. VISA/MC , Discover , and AMEX would have the problem with CIG , if they "flagged" them as a potential company that isn't credit worthy on the business side , they'd raise their fees for them dramatically , worst case drop them.

The CC companies side with their customers 99.99% of the time. There's a line in every one of my CC companies agreements that lists "not happy with quality of product or service" as  a reason for a chargeback. Tell me in any shape or form , how CIG (or any game company ) could ever "prove" me wrong ?

Bzzzt. They can't.


The one thing you can't get around is time , sometimes the limit is 6 months , sometimes a year , but as long as you are under that timeline , you can , easily , get a chargeback , and if you are a reasonable CC customer , there's zero that CIG can do about it.

Banks and CC companies don't give a rat's ass about some game company nor it's ToS , they put all the burden of proof on the company.

TheYear1500

Distopia said:

Talonsin said:

Then let me ask you, why are some people having an issue getting refunds?  If everything was going great and the company had tons of money coming in and in the bank as many people claim, why the resistance to refunds? 

If only a few people are claiming refunds, whats the big deal?  Why the big resistance to refunds if everything is fine at CIG?

Are folks actually having issues? I see people saying they just got one fairly regularly around here. Remember just because you saw a post where someone complained about not getting one, doesn't mean they didn't ever get one... Eadan just this week started a thread and complained about not getting one, he did end up getting one. They didn't contact him about it, just sent it when it went through apparently.  

They stopped giving them about a month ago. 

k61977

JohnP0100 said:

k61977 said:

Now post your link that shows CIG thinks my argument is considered dumb and I will concede and say you are right.  Without proof you have nothing but your own beliefs about what they think.

Yes, because CIG themselves has used those reasons for denying a charge back. Hang on a min...

CIG declares publicly that they are developing a different product than originally pitched.
CIG declares publicly that they won't be giving out deadlines for anything any more.

Apparently 'publicly declaring' something and then saying something else to the court / credit card company works. /sarcasm

I guess you really can't read all that well.  If you can't post an actual link then anything you say is null and void.  I can say the sky is purple and it is just as true as what you posted.  

While I know yes they have changed direction more than once that is part of what being in development is.
And yes a developer can change things while something is in development it doesn't entitle you to money back that is part of a development process just so you can get that thru your head. 

Most good developers would give back money if a person contacted them and stated that they didn't believe in the project because of the changes.  And don't get me wrong I am not saying I like this developer at all, I think it is disgusting the way this cash grab has happened.

I will not reply again because it is pointless, you have made your mind up and that is fine.

JohnP0100

k61977 said:

I will not reply again because it is pointless, 

God I hope so, your posts are terrible.

Not only do you think you know what other people think, "CIG doesn't care about your single charge back or 100 single chargebacks at this time"

But you play 'Internet Lawyer' as well
- And if it was you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court if you live in the US.
- You have to prove they did something wrong, and good luck with that because they are still in development cycle and giving just enough stuff to say development is still moving foward, so most courts would throw it out at this point.  


Yes, please do not reply in this thread again.

Distopia

TheYear1500 said:

Distopia said:

Talonsin said:

Then let me ask you, why are some people having an issue getting refunds?  If everything was going great and the company had tons of money coming in and in the bank as many people claim, why the resistance to refunds? 

If only a few people are claiming refunds, whats the big deal?  Why the big resistance to refunds if everything is fine at CIG?

Are folks actually having issues? I see people saying they just got one fairly regularly around here. Remember just because you saw a post where someone complained about not getting one, doesn't mean they didn't ever get one... Eadan just this week started a thread and complained about not getting one, he did end up getting one. They didn't contact him about it, just sent it when it went through apparently.  

They stopped giving them about a month ago. 

Odd how Eadan! received one then.

Distopia

Brenics said:

It has been documented very well in articles about CR. If you want to ignore it that is fine. But I laugh at people asking for proof when it has already been done in other threads. You really should read up and do your own research. In fact anyone that has gave or thinking of being part of this, should really do research on this guy. 

How was I ignoring it? I was asking for some real evidence of that (I'd like to know what you're referring to), not conjecture on forums, you say "articles", which ones? I googled "Chris Roberts hard to work with" the only thing that came up was what we've seen linked here over and over (polygon and escapist articles)... Most of that is based on hearsay, so an so said this or that, which is not something I'd base my forum arguments on, because hearsay isn't always accurate. 

I was looking for something of actual substance, then again you guys act as though employees making printed wall art is something substantial to discuss when considering 100 million bucks ..

JohnP0100

Distopia said:

TheYear1500 said:

They stopped giving them about a month ago. 

Odd how Eadan! received one then.

If you are from Australia and mention that the Australian's law applies here then you 'might' get a refund rather than the Charge Back route.

No, just because CIG is based in US doesn't mean only US laws apply.

Distopia

JohnP0100 said:

Distopia said:

TheYear1500 said:

They stopped giving them about a month ago. 

Odd how Eadan! received one then.

If you are from Australia and mention that the Australian's law applies here then you 'might' get a refund rather than the Charge Back route.

No, just because CIG is based in US doesn't mean only US laws apply.

Maybe so, I have no idea where Eadan is from, could be Australia or the EU... hard to say... my point was that his post which is a week old ( he initially was saying he was refused ) said he was refunded. Which is contradictory to the point made

OF course US laws do not apply in commerce worldwide, why even add that?

JohnP0100

Distopia said:

JohnP0100 said:

Distopia said:

TheYear1500 said:

They stopped giving them about a month ago. 

Odd how Eadan! received one then.

If you are from Australia and mention that the Australian's law applies here then you 'might' get a refund rather than the Charge Back route.

No, just because CIG is based in US doesn't mean only US laws apply.

Maybe so, I have no idea where Eadan is from, could be Australia or the EU... hard to say... my point was that his post which is a week old ( he initially was saying he was refused ) said he was refunded. Which is contradictory to the point made

OF course US laws do not apply in commerce worldwide, why even add that?

Sorry, the last line wasn't towards you and I should have been more clear on that.
It was towards whoever would bring that up cause it was brought up a LOT (CIG is in US so only US laws applies!!!11) when this discussion happened elsewhere.

SpottyGekko

This thread has more rumours, hearsay, allegations and innuendo than a year's worth of tabloid newspapers, lol

Not to mention the wide range of hilarious "legal expert opinions" !

Sometimes gaming forums are more entertaining than playing the games themselves...  

Asm0deus

SpottyGekko said:

This thread has more rumours, hearsay, allegations and innuendo than a year's worth of tabloid newspapers, lol

Not to mention the wide range of hilarious "legal expert opinions" !

Sometimes gaming forums are more entertaining than playing the games themselves...  

In that case I could posit that many people, both pro and con SC, have had their "monies" worth indeed!

Any people say SC is a scam....rofl

JohnP0100

SpottyGekko said:

This thread has more rumours, hearsay, allegations and innuendo than a year's worth of tabloid newspapers, lol

Not to mention the wide range of hilarious "legal expert opinions" !

Sometimes gaming forums are more entertaining than playing the games themselves...  

I know!
When I filed my charge back, other than the actual charge back, every material I submitted was created by CIG!

I mean, Chris Roberts did say 'If it isn't coming from me, then it is just an opinion' but thankfully my bank isn't dumb enough to think that shields CIG.

Akulas

Don't pay for anything until a product is released then that solves most of the problem otherwise it's going to keep happening with other companies.

Erillion

Akulas said:

Don't pay for anything until a product is released

Then a lot of excellent crowdfunding projects would have never seen the light of the day (e.g. Wasteland 2 etc.) as there would not have been money to create them.

Crowdfunding is one way for players to get the games THEY want, not what some publisher marketing departement wants you to buy.


Have fun