Charge Back and Refunds

tawess

@Brenics Yes... I actually do blame the customer in a lot of this. Way to many people got on the bandwagon without any idea of what they spent their money on. 

They just wanted to be part of the hypemachine. To buy a bit of social cred. 

Then they got cold feet and instead of owning what they have done... They went for the option of having someone else pay for their mistake. This is not victim blaming, because there are no real victims here. As i said... Casino rules. Now i agree that there is a point if callousness in how CR and crew played on this combination of lemming mentality and desire to belong.  But to be fair... Having worked as a telemarketer... This is not anything new. 

Now say that SC get a release as a junky mess of a nonworking game. By all means... Chargeback until your card disintegrates. But until then... Well... Learn to manage your expectations and smarten up. 

JohnP0100

The continuous victim blaming is hilarious. CIG declares publicly they are not making Product A as promised. And apparently the customers should have known that in advanced.

Just.../facepalm.

TheYear1500

Distopia said:

TheYear1500 said:

Distopia said:

Talonsin said:

Then let me ask you, why are some people having an issue getting refunds?  If everything was going great and the company had tons of money coming in and in the bank as many people claim, why the resistance to refunds? 

If only a few people are claiming refunds, whats the big deal?  Why the big resistance to refunds if everything is fine at CIG?

Are folks actually having issues? I see people saying they just got one fairly regularly around here. Remember just because you saw a post where someone complained about not getting one, doesn't mean they didn't ever get one... Eadan just this week started a thread and complained about not getting one, he did end up getting one. They didn't contact him about it, just sent it when it went through apparently.  

They stopped giving them about a month ago. 

Odd how Eadan! received one then.

And I didn't, so hey even.  Well that and multiple other people not getting them.  

Distopia

JohnP0100 said:

The continuous victim blaming is hilarious. CIG declares publicly they are not making Product A as promised. And apparently the customers should have known that in advanced.

Just.../facepalm.

 Why make it sound so dramatic? How exactly is anyone a victim in this situation? Anyone feeling burned can simply charge-back; there is no lasting pain that should come from that... Nor reason to play "victim", there is simply a lot of risk in jumping into a project as it first begins production, things can go any number of ways. Things could get bigger, things can shrink, the team could even go belly up.

Things got bigger and more drawn out. Want out? get out, wanting out doesn't make someone a victim, why exaggerate other than trying to put your view up on some moral pedestal? And they call fans "whiteknights" lmao...

Victim blaming

TheYear1500

Distopia said:

JohnP0100 said:

The continuous victim blaming is hilarious. CIG declares publicly they are not making Product A as promised. And apparently the customers should have known that in advanced.

Just.../facepalm.

 Why make it sound so dramatic? How exactly is anyone a victim in this situation? Anyone feeling burned can simply charge-back; there is no lasting pain that should come from that... Nor reason to play "victim", there is simply a lot of risk in jumping into a project as it first begins production, things can go any number of ways. Things could get bigger, things can shrink, the team could even go belly up.

Things got bigger and more drawn out. Want out? get out, wanting out doesn't make someone a victim, why exaggerate other than trying to put your view up on some moral pedestal? And they call fans "whiteknights" lmao...

Victim blaming

Not everyone can charge back, not all CC let you charge back years down the line, paypal also does not let you do it after 180 days (or something).  So yes there are in fact victims.  

Distopia

TheYear1500 said:

Distopia said:

JohnP0100 said:

The continuous victim blaming is hilarious. CIG declares publicly they are not making Product A as promised. And apparently the customers should have known that in advanced.

Just.../facepalm.

 Why make it sound so dramatic? How exactly is anyone a victim in this situation? Anyone feeling burned can simply charge-back; there is no lasting pain that should come from that... Nor reason to play "victim", there is simply a lot of risk in jumping into a project as it first begins production, things can go any number of ways. Things could get bigger, things can shrink, the team could even go belly up.

Things got bigger and more drawn out. Want out? get out, wanting out doesn't make someone a victim, why exaggerate other than trying to put your view up on some moral pedestal? And they call fans "whiteknights" lmao...

Victim blaming

Not everyone can charge back, not all CC let you charge back years down the line, paypal also does not let you do it after 180 days (or something).  So yes there are in fact victims.  

You just said yourself up to a month ago they were offering refunds, which is how many years after the original kickstarter? Sorry I find the assertion that people investing into crowd-funding are victims in such a situation way off base. An actual scam? Sure, victims a-plenty, a game changing scope? No.

Nothing more than trying to place yourself on higher ground... IS a person losing in the market a victim? No, their judgment as well as foresight were poor...

I wish people would realize picking a winning game or product to back is like throwing a hand full of darts at the board. You might hit something substantial, or you might not..

rpmcmurphy

Distopia said:

You just said yourself up to a month ago they were offering refunds, which is how many years after the original kickstarter? Sorry I find the assertion that people investing into crowd-funding are victims in such a situation. An actual scam? Sure, victims a-plenty, a game changing scope? No.

Nothing more than trying to place yourself on higher ground... IS a person losing in the market a victim? No, their judgment as well as foresight were poor...

That's because they had to. They were bound by their T&Cs that if a sizable portion of the game was not delivered within 12 months of their ETA then people could get a full refund.

The change occurred when they delivered patch 2.0 because despite it only being 1 of 100 promised star systems and perhaps 2% of the promised game mechanics they were now claiming it was a sizable enough portion of the game that justified the right to deny refunds, when it clearly isn't a large slice of the final game.

Distopia

rpmcmurphy said:

Distopia said:

You just said yourself up to a month ago they were offering refunds, which is how many years after the original kickstarter? Sorry I find the assertion that people investing into crowd-funding are victims in such a situation. An actual scam? Sure, victims a-plenty, a game changing scope? No.

Nothing more than trying to place yourself on higher ground... IS a person losing in the market a victim? No, their judgment as well as foresight were poor...

That's because they had to. They were bound by their T&Cs that if a sizable portion of the game was not delivered within 12 months of their ETA then people could get a full refund.

The change occurred when they delivered patch 2.0 because despite it only being 1 of 100 promised star systems and perhaps 2% of the promised game mechanics they were now claiming it was a sizable enough portion of the game that justified the right to deny refunds, when it clearly isn't a large slice of the final game.

Either way that was a huge window available for people to back out. How exactly are those who didn't victims? We're talking years here..

JohnP0100

Distopia said:

JohnP0100 said:

The continuous victim blaming is hilarious. CIG declares publicly they are not making Product A as promised. And apparently the customers should have known that in advanced.

Just.../facepalm.

 Why make it sound so dramatic? How exactly is anyone a victim in this situation? Anyone feeling burned can simply charge-back; there is no lasting pain that should come from that... Nor reason to play "victim", there is simply a lot of risk in jumping into a project as it first begins production, things can go any number of ways. Things could get bigger, things can shrink, the team could even go belly up.

Things got bigger and more drawn out. Want out? get out, wanting out doesn't make someone a victim, why exaggerate other than trying to put your view up on some moral pedestal? And they call fans "whiteknights" lmao...

Victim blaming

Hence this thread 'charge back if CIG isn't giving out the refunds'.
Did you even read the OP? Your contribution to this thread thus far has been total garbage.

Sorry, apparently it is the customer's fault for CIG deciding to not make what they promised with no deadline on whatever they are making now. /Sarcasm

Just... /Facepalm

JohnP0100

Distopia said:

You just said yourself up to a month ago they were offering refunds, which is how many years after the original kickstarter? Sorry I find the assertion that people investing into crowd-funding are victims in such a situation way off base. An actual scam? Sure, victims a-plenty, a game changing scope? No.

Nothing more than trying to place yourself on higher ground... IS a person losing in the market a victim? No, their judgment as well as foresight were poor...

I wish people would realize picking a winning game or product to back is like throwing a hand full of darts at the board. You might hit something substantial, or you might not..

CIG publicly declares they will not make what they said they would in the Kickstarter.
"Backer's foresight were poor and the customers who pledged to this are not victims of fraud'  - Distopia 2016

I mean, why don't backers just read the future to avoid situation like this? Oh wait....

rpmcmurphy

Distopia said:

Either way that was a huge window available for people to back out. How exactly are those who didn't victims? We're talking years here..

Yes but people would have no need to seek a refund within the first 2 or 3 years because they wouldn't expect a game to be made in that time.

Last year there was the constant promise about content, namely Star Marine being just around the corner. Based on those promises I imagine people might have held off seeking a refund, they believed CR was good to his word and then Star Marine was "scrapped" and 2.0 was pushed out in its stead with the caveat that people had now lost their right to a refund.

If you lead people along with "We're going to give you this!", "We're going to give you this!", "We're going to give you this!", "Oh actually we're going to give you this, and by the way you've lost your right to a refund!" then people are going to quite rightly feel like they've been taken for a ride.

BeansnBread

Distopia said:

rpmcmurphy said:

Distopia said:

You just said yourself up to a month ago they were offering refunds, which is how many years after the original kickstarter? Sorry I find the assertion that people investing into crowd-funding are victims in such a situation. An actual scam? Sure, victims a-plenty, a game changing scope? No.

Nothing more than trying to place yourself on higher ground... IS a person losing in the market a victim? No, their judgment as well as foresight were poor...

That's because they had to. They were bound by their T&Cs that if a sizable portion of the game was not delivered within 12 months of their ETA then people could get a full refund.

The change occurred when they delivered patch 2.0 because despite it only being 1 of 100 promised star systems and perhaps 2% of the promised game mechanics they were now claiming it was a sizable enough portion of the game that justified the right to deny refunds, when it clearly isn't a large slice of the final game.

Either way that was a huge window available for people to back out. How exactly are those who didn't victims? We're talking years here..

Wait, what? If they were led to believe that the game was going to be made during those years, and that's what they paid for, and after those years it wasn't, then how are they not victims?

While playing the victim is often off putting, when people actually ARE victims, they should seek recompense. And people should be extremely wary of those not offering it.

Distopia

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

Wait, what? If they were led to believe that the game was going to be made during those years, and that's what they paid for, and after those years it wasn't, then how are they not victims?

While playing the victim is often off putting, when people actually ARE victims, they should seek recompense. And people should be extremely wary of those not offering it.

Not being happy with the state of a game pledged to is a lot different than being a victim to a crime or act of ill intent. that's how... you're putting money toward something that has no guarantee of success.. Scope creep missed deadlines, etc... is a matter of bad management, it doesn't mean they're trying to trick people or dupe them, they're not trying to hurt people, the word simply doesn't fit. 

It's one thing if this whole thing turns out to be a scheme to make it rich, IE an act of fraud, etc... then you can call people victims.. As it stands it's simply a matter of not meeting deadlines... 

Elsabolts

Do the Roberts have any swiss bank accounts ?

BeansnBread

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

Wait, what? If they were led to believe that the game was going to be made during those years, and that's what they paid for, and after those years it wasn't, then how are they not victims?

While playing the victim is often off putting, when people actually ARE victims, they should seek recompense. And people should be extremely wary of those not offering it.

Not being happy with the state of a game pledged to is a lot different than being a victim to a crime or act of ill intent. that's how... you're putting money toward something that has no guarantee of success.. Scope creep missed deadlines, etc... is a matter of bad management, it doesn't mean they're trying to trick people or dupe them, they're not trying to hurt people, the word simply doesn't fit. 

It's one thing if this whole thing turns out to be a scheme to make it rich, IE an act of fraud, etc... then you can call people victims.. As it stands it's simply a matter of not meeting deadlines... 

Being a victim doesn't require a crime. I'll just leave it at that.

Heretique

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

Wait, what? If they were led to believe that the game was going to be made during those years, and that's what they paid for, and after those years it wasn't, then how are they not victims?

While playing the victim is often off putting, when people actually ARE victims, they should seek recompense. And people should be extremely wary of those not offering it.

Not being happy with the state of a game pledged to is a lot different than being a victim to a crime or act of ill intent. that's how... you're putting money toward something that has no guarantee of success.. Scope creep missed deadlines, etc... is a matter of bad management, it doesn't mean they're trying to trick people or dupe them, they're not trying to hurt people, the word simply doesn't fit. 

It's one thing if this whole thing turns out to be a scheme to make it rich, IE an act of fraud, etc... then you can call people victims.. As it stands it's simply a matter of not meeting deadlines... 

Being a victim doesn't require a crime. I'll just leave it at that.

Nice opinion, haven't really found what exactly CIG did that would be officially stamped as illegal with solid proof to back it up.

So far people just throwing opinions around trying to state them as facts is all we've been seeing.

But carry on.

BeansnBread

Heretique said:

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

BeansnBread said:

Distopia said:

Wait, what? If they were led to believe that the game was going to be made during those years, and that's what they paid for, and after those years it wasn't, then how are they not victims?

While playing the victim is often off putting, when people actually ARE victims, they should seek recompense. And people should be extremely wary of those not offering it.

Not being happy with the state of a game pledged to is a lot different than being a victim to a crime or act of ill intent. that's how... you're putting money toward something that has no guarantee of success.. Scope creep missed deadlines, etc... is a matter of bad management, it doesn't mean they're trying to trick people or dupe them, they're not trying to hurt people, the word simply doesn't fit. 

It's one thing if this whole thing turns out to be a scheme to make it rich, IE an act of fraud, etc... then you can call people victims.. As it stands it's simply a matter of not meeting deadlines... 

Being a victim doesn't require a crime. I'll just leave it at that.

Nice opinion, haven't really found what exactly CIG did that would be officially stamped as illegal with solid proof to back it up.

So far people just throwing opinions around trying to state them as facts is all we've been seeing.

But carry on.

Exactly, there was nothing illegal and being a victim doesn't require a crime.

CrazKanuk

JohnP0100 said:

Distopia said:

You just said yourself up to a month ago they were offering refunds, which is how many years after the original kickstarter? Sorry I find the assertion that people investing into crowd-funding are victims in such a situation way off base. An actual scam? Sure, victims a-plenty, a game changing scope? No.

Nothing more than trying to place yourself on higher ground... IS a person losing in the market a victim? No, their judgment as well as foresight were poor...

I wish people would realize picking a winning game or product to back is like throwing a hand full of darts at the board. You might hit something substantial, or you might not..

CIG publicly declares they will not make what they said they would in the Kickstarter.
"Backer's foresight were poor and the customers who pledged to this are not victims of fraud'  - Distopia 2016

I mean, why don't backers just read the future to avoid situation like this? Oh wait....

Just to clear some things up. First, you still seem to have an unclear definition of what a promise is. There were no promises made.. at all! They pitched a game they'd like to make. That's it! You should have a look through to Kickstarter FAQ. In reality, products change as they are being developed. Your expectation is that what is pitched will be exactly what is delivered. Actually, I'd go as far as to say that your expectation is that the game will be whatever it is that you've made up in your head. 

If you pre-order a game and don't like it, will you simply do a chargeback? Same deal here. For the people who have unrealistic expectations, I suggest waiting for games to release because the reality of the situation is that they aren't going to meet your standards. If you can't understand the risks associated with a crowdfunded project and refuse to accept the reality that it might change, don't back it, don't pre-order anything, wait for the games to hit the shelves and get reviewed. 

Erillion

CrazKanuk said:

 Actually, I'd go as far as to say that your expectation is that the game will be whatever it is that you've made up in your head. 

Exactly.

It is simply not feasible to create something that 100 % satisfies 100 % of the people. In that case 1.26 million "Star Citizens" with sometimes mutually exclusive expectations.

For example i would like to see SWG style crafting in SC - while many PvP players are vehemently against this.

It is a given that there will be salty tears once SC goes live, no matter if its a perfect "Game of the Year" or a steaming pile of dung. Someone will always be upset and cry us a river on the forums. This was the case since the MMO genre started.


Have fun

CrazKanuk

Erillion said:

CrazKanuk said:

 Actually, I'd go as far as to say that your expectation is that the game will be whatever it is that you've made up in your head. 

Exactly.

It is simply not feasible to create something that 100 % satisfies 100 % of the people. In that case 1.26 million "Star Citizens" with sometimes mutually exclusive expectations.

For example i would like to see SWG style crafting in SC - while many PvP players are vehemently against this.

It is a given that there will be salty tears once SC goes live, no matter if its a perfect "Game of the Year" or a steaming pile of dung. Someone will always be upset and cry us a river on the forums. This was the case since the MMO genre started.


Have fun

Hey, while we're on the topic of SWG, why not go back and chargeback all those subscription fees that you made over the years? After all, you were promised a persistent universe and that's no longer the case, so they didn't deliver on what they promised. 

Brenics

CrazKanuk said:

Erillion said:

CrazKanuk said:

 Actually, I'd go as far as to say that your expectation is that the game will be whatever it is that you've made up in your head. 

Exactly.

It is simply not feasible to create something that 100 % satisfies 100 % of the people. In that case 1.26 million "Star Citizens" with sometimes mutually exclusive expectations.

For example i would like to see SWG style crafting in SC - while many PvP players are vehemently against this.

It is a given that there will be salty tears once SC goes live, no matter if its a perfect "Game of the Year" or a steaming pile of dung. Someone will always be upset and cry us a river on the forums. This was the case since the MMO genre started.


Have fun

Hey, while we're on the topic of SWG, why not go back and chargeback all those subscription fees that you made over the years? After all, you were promised a persistent universe and that's no longer the case, so they didn't deliver on what they promised. 

Always taking it to the extreme and comparing this non-game to games you could actually play. Really can't take anything you say without laughing at you. :-D

CrazKanuk

Brenics said:

CrazKanuk said:

Erillion said:

CrazKanuk said:

 Actually, I'd go as far as to say that your expectation is that the game will be whatever it is that you've made up in your head. 

Exactly.

It is simply not feasible to create something that 100 % satisfies 100 % of the people. In that case 1.26 million "Star Citizens" with sometimes mutually exclusive expectations.

For example i would like to see SWG style crafting in SC - while many PvP players are vehemently against this.

It is a given that there will be salty tears once SC goes live, no matter if its a perfect "Game of the Year" or a steaming pile of dung. Someone will always be upset and cry us a river on the forums. This was the case since the MMO genre started.


Have fun

Hey, while we're on the topic of SWG, why not go back and chargeback all those subscription fees that you made over the years? After all, you were promised a persistent universe and that's no longer the case, so they didn't deliver on what they promised. 

Always taking it to the extreme and comparing this non-game to games you could actually play. Really can't take anything you say without laughing at you. :-D

WOW!! This coming from someone who said that CIG is likely using all their offices as an elaborate money laundering scheme. That's rich. 

At least I wasn't being serious. Did you think I was, though? Like for real? 

Kefo

Erillion said:

CrazKanuk said:

 Actually, I'd go as far as to say that your expectation is that the game will be whatever it is that you've made up in your head. 

Exactly.

It is simply not feasible to create something that 100 % satisfies 100 % of the people. In that case 1.26 million "Star Citizens" with sometimes mutually exclusive expectations.



Have fun

There you go quoting that star citizens number again . 1.26 million people are not star citizens as someone could have multiple accounts and many probably signed up for a free fly and then promptly left forever

TheYear1500

Distopia said:

TheYear1500 said:

Distopia said:

JohnP0100 said:

The continuous victim blaming is hilarious. CIG declares publicly they are not making Product A as promised. And apparently the customers should have known that in advanced.

Just.../facepalm.

 Why make it sound so dramatic? How exactly is anyone a victim in this situation? Anyone feeling burned can simply charge-back; there is no lasting pain that should come from that... Nor reason to play "victim", there is simply a lot of risk in jumping into a project as it first begins production, things can go any number of ways. Things could get bigger, things can shrink, the team could even go belly up.

Things got bigger and more drawn out. Want out? get out, wanting out doesn't make someone a victim, why exaggerate other than trying to put your view up on some moral pedestal? And they call fans "whiteknights" lmao...

Victim blaming

Not everyone can charge back, not all CC let you charge back years down the line, paypal also does not let you do it after 180 days (or something).  So yes there are in fact victims.  

You just said yourself up to a month ago they were offering refunds, which is how many years after the original kickstarter? Sorry I find the assertion that people investing into crowd-funding are victims in such a situation way off base. An actual scam? Sure, victims a-plenty, a game changing scope? No.

Nothing more than trying to place yourself on higher ground... IS a person losing in the market a victim? No, their judgment as well as foresight were poor...

I wish people would realize picking a winning game or product to back is like throwing a hand full of darts at the board. You might hit something substantial, or you might not..

They where unofficially giving refunds during a very small window, and they were still turning people down.  

And the only reason for that is because DS.  

Talonsin

Wow, this thread has become a train wreck.  We went from some people not getting refunds to blaming the backers for even buying the game and then to "It is simply not feasible to create something that 100 % satisfies 100 % of the people", LOL.

This is why I love SC threads.  They dont take long to spiral out of control and head to the land of lunacy.