2 Square Enix guys did the job in 6 weeks in 2015 with King of Wushu (which runs on CryEngine).
MMORPG on CryEngine? Yes I guess the people at Trion Worlds thought the same when they did the Netcode for ArcheAge (which runs on CryEngine).
If I want to create something like Star Citizen, Cryengine (an Isle battling engine) would be by far the worst engine I could use.
You need to be very careful when you talk about DX12 implementations, there can be superficial ones that are easy to implement, and in-depth ones, obviously games that went with superficial only end up with part of the benefits, witch is why King of Wushu doesn't have as a good a performance jump from DX11 to 12 as other games i've seen. It's like the older MMO's that ported from DX9 to 10/11 some with very good results others with the contrary, it always depends of how much to the devs put into it, this is the same thing when we talk about VR Support. We've already seen from devs at CIG several times mentioning that they want a proper DX12 not just throw it in. Then ofc you have Vulkan in mind here as well but that ain't too hard after DX12 is done.
And yes Trion Worlds must have had fun with the 12 players FPS match CE netcode to create a MMO with it, even though Archeage still does suffer problems on that area.
Less than 4 years since the KS btw and 4 years ago they absolutely didn't have "the team" working on the game - the companies had to be set up, people hired, the people to do the hiring hired! All the while raising money.
That aside though this is the question that should be being asked: what is left to be done, how long will it take.
Do we get such discussions though? No. And such thread would probably get derailed by someone saying e.g. "10 years ago CR was in the same city as someone who was found guilty of jay walking so it will never happen". And the thread would get derailed.
Increasingly though it is looking like the game will launch. Even if CR was abducted by aliens tomorrow since the rest of the team would still be there and work flows exist.
For the "alpha" is out there.
And its a two-edged sword. It displays progress and work yet to be done. Good luck with trying to get such a thread going though without someone chiming in that when CR was 2 years old ......
so SC development just started somewhen 2 years ago? with an expected AAA title production cycle of 5-8 years you backers are donating 3million a month the next minimum 3-6 years?
Oh and the only workflow that exist is the ship selling workflow all other is chaotic development.
I corrected your 4 years statement. The KS launched in Oct 2012. And that people - erroneously - then assume that a bunch of coders simply get to work. Not the case even in an established company. Let alone one that needs to be set up.
How long have they been working - someone else may have a better answer; almost certainly different teams will have started at different times and there will have been a progressive ramp up. 2 years? Maybe.
How long will it take. Depends. Destiny was released less than 2.5 years after Bungee inked the deal with Activision Blizzard - meaning they had no financing "worries". And they did finish with over 540 employees. Which was certainly less than 5-8 years. Wildstar though was 7 years after Carbine were bought by NCSoft. So how long is it?It varies.
Work flows? We don't know. There is a team churning out backgrounds for the various planets - surprised someone hasn't done an infographic along the lines of the ship one. What has been said though - after they released the alpha - is that they are working to "soft targets" and monthly updates of the alpha rather than the "hard targets" which gave them a lot of problems prior to the alpha releasing. (A good decision imo.)
Which means what should be discussed is what you suggested and I have said for some time. What has been done since the alpha launched. What still needs doing. How close is a playable game. How long will it take. No one wants this discussion though since it reinforces the point that:
The alpha is out there.
And that points to the game releasing. So instead its CR periodically as a 1 year old proving he just can't hack it.
Game development began around October 2011 Gervaise1
“Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” ― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
Article LINK CR talking about SC written in Oct 2012, quote from said article:
You have stated that you expect to have an Alpha up and going in about 12 months, with a beta roughly 10 months after that and then launch. For a game of this size and scope, do you think you can really be done in the next two years?
Really it is all about constant iteration from launch. The whole idea is to be constantly updating. It isn’t like the old days where you had to have everything and the kitchen sink in at launch because you weren’t going to come back to it for awhile. We’re already one year in - another two years puts us at 3 total which is ideal. Any more and things would begin to get stale.
“Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” ― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
You do not have to believe ME that the engine has been extensively modified. You do not have to believe a CIG dev either. Here is an expert third party opinion from Oct. 2015.
This part my especially interest you: "Star Citizen carries a lot of what we call “Technical Risk,”
loosely translated as “Stuff we have no idea how to do yet.” Much of
that is because nobody’s done it yet, but some of it has been done
before. What I’d look for comes down to two things:
Moving all the risky stuff to the beginning of the project, to find
out how bad the damage is and get the schedule and cost settled down
ASAP, and
Researching how the things that have been done before were done
before, and hopefully, if you can afford it, going and finding the
people who did it and getting them to help.
CIG, from an outsider’s perspective, appears to have failed
comprehensively on both fronts (64bits in June 2015 reads like a miss,
and apparently Smart offered them help at the outset and was ignored —
also a miss), but the company has now paid for that failure by doing
everything itself. We saw a bit of chopping and changing on the engine
front and a few other painful- and expensive-looking things, and going
64bit a few months ago definitely appears to have untangled the log-jam
and finally allowed some more tangible progress. So while risk
management to date, examined by an outsider with hindsight and a
complete lack of knowledge of what’s actually gone on inside the
company, looks clumsy and expensive, it doesn’t appear to have killed
the project, and hopefully the worst is behind us."
Have fun
Very brave of you to quote that . The 64 bit thing has been talked about before, they are trying to do it, and indeed they need to do it. I think they'll muck it up -- past history you know.
Hopefully the coders will have time while they try to get Squadron 42 out the door. (dang, this post is looking all wonky now. More fun with MMORPG formatting)
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Less than 4 years since the KS btw and 4 years ago they absolutely didn't have "the team" working on the game - the companies had to be set up, people hired, the people to do the hiring hired! All the while raising money.
That aside though this is the question that should be being asked: what is left to be done, how long will it take.
Do we get such discussions though? No. And such thread would probably get derailed by someone saying e.g. "10 years ago CR was in the same city as someone who was found guilty of jay walking so it will never happen". And the thread would get derailed.
Increasingly though it is looking like the game will launch. Even if CR was abducted by aliens tomorrow since the rest of the team would still be there and work flows exist.
For the "alpha" is out there.
And its a two-edged sword. It displays progress and work yet to be done. Good luck with trying to get such a thread going though without someone chiming in that when CR was 2 years old ......
so SC development just started somewhen 2 years ago? with an expected AAA title production cycle of 5-8 years you backers are donating 3million a month the next minimum 3-6 years?
Oh and the only workflow that exist is the ship selling workflow all other is chaotic development.
I corrected your 4 years statement. The KS launched in Oct 2012. And that people - erroneously - then assume that a bunch of coders simply get to work. Not the case even in an established company. Let alone one that needs to be set up.
How long have they been working - someone else may have a better answer; almost certainly different teams will have started at different times and there will have been a progressive ramp up. 2 years? Maybe.
How long will it take. Depends. Destiny was released less than 2.5 years after Bungee inked the deal with Activision Blizzard - meaning they had no financing "worries". And they did finish with over 540 employees. Which was certainly less than 5-8 years. Wildstar though was 7 years after Carbine were bought by NCSoft. So how long is it?It varies.
Work flows? We don't know. There is a team churning out backgrounds for the various planets - surprised someone hasn't done an infographic along the lines of the ship one. What has been said though - after they released the alpha - is that they are working to "soft targets" and monthly updates of the alpha rather than the "hard targets" which gave them a lot of problems prior to the alpha releasing. (A good decision imo.)
Which means what should be discussed is what you suggested and I have said for some time. What has been done since the alpha launched. What still needs doing. How close is a playable game. How long will it take. No one wants this discussion though since it reinforces the point that:
The alpha is out there.
And that points to the game releasing. So instead its CR periodically as a 1 year old proving he just can't hack it.
Game development began around October 2011 Gervaise1
Those claims varied depending on what was convenient at the time. There may have been work done, or it may have been next to nothing. Can't trust Roberts pronouncements on things.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Less than 4 years since the KS btw and 4 years ago they absolutely didn't have "the team" working on the game - the companies had to be set up, people hired, the people to do the hiring hired! All the while raising money.
That aside though this is the question that should be being asked: what is left to be done, how long will it take.
Do we get such discussions though? No. And such thread would probably get derailed by someone saying e.g. "10 years ago CR was in the same city as someone who was found guilty of jay walking so it will never happen". And the thread would get derailed.
Increasingly though it is looking like the game will launch. Even if CR was abducted by aliens tomorrow since the rest of the team would still be there and work flows exist.
For the "alpha" is out there.
And its a two-edged sword. It displays progress and work yet to be done. Good luck with trying to get such a thread going though without someone chiming in that when CR was 2 years old ......
so SC development just started somewhen 2 years ago? with an expected AAA title production cycle of 5-8 years you backers are donating 3million a month the next minimum 3-6 years?
Oh and the only workflow that exist is the ship selling workflow all other is chaotic development.
I corrected your 4 years statement. The KS launched in Oct 2012. And that people - erroneously - then assume that a bunch of coders simply get to work. Not the case even in an established company. Let alone one that needs to be set up.
How long have they been working - someone else may have a better answer; almost certainly different teams will have started at different times and there will have been a progressive ramp up. 2 years? Maybe.
How long will it take. Depends. Destiny was released less than 2.5 years after Bungee inked the deal with Activision Blizzard - meaning they had no financing "worries". And they did finish with over 540 employees. Which was certainly less than 5-8 years. Wildstar though was 7 years after Carbine were bought by NCSoft. So how long is it?It varies.
Work flows? We don't know. There is a team churning out backgrounds for the various planets - surprised someone hasn't done an infographic along the lines of the ship one. What has been said though - after they released the alpha - is that they are working to "soft targets" and monthly updates of the alpha rather than the "hard targets" which gave them a lot of problems prior to the alpha releasing. (A good decision imo.)
Which means what should be discussed is what you suggested and I have said for some time. What has been done since the alpha launched. What still needs doing. How close is a playable game. How long will it take. No one wants this discussion though since it reinforces the point that:
The alpha is out there.
And that points to the game releasing. So instead its CR periodically as a 1 year old proving he just can't hack it.
Game development began around October 2011 Gervaise1
Those claims varied depending on what was convenient at the time. There may have been work done, or it may have been next to nothing. Can't trust Roberts pronouncements on things.
lol what can you trust, if you can't believe the lead developer?
“Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” ― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
So, we have a month to go before their next big chance to prove/embarrass themselves. They do plan on actually showing some bits from Squadron 42, right?
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I think that Gamescom will be unspectacular, in that CIG will show around 2.5 and have a ship sale or two.
If I understand correctly what they are trying to do, information about Sq42 will come at Citizencon. CIG will try to have as much new stuff as possible in that event, thus leading the end of year sales bonanza that makes them $5-8M.
I expect a "shock and awe" campaign from them on Citizencon, especially if Sq42 is delayed into 2017 and has to be communicated there and then. Trailers, sneak peeks, a large ship sale (corvette?), procedural tech, 2.7 launching on the PTU etc etc..
Is Star Citizen a cult? So much passion about a game that is how far from full mmoish launch? I honestly dont know. Digging through hundreds of posts of people arguing about tiny details isn't helping.
Is Star Citizen a cult? So much passion about a game that is how far from full mmoish launch? I honestly dont know. Digging through hundreds of posts of people arguing about tiny details isn't helping.
I honestly see more passion on people attacking the game (or put it as obsessed critics) than the ones doing the contrary. The moment i saw people dedicated to that for already 3 years pretty much every day of their lifes going on all sorts of attacks against a videogame, the company behind it, the individual employees of the company on something that goes even up to their families.... on every little thing that can be used to feed that objective... makes you think...
Passion for passion and hatred for hatred?
~~btw, the arguing about little details on pointless discussions that change nothing is pretty much what the discussions are turned into for most of it, classic Internet forum circular discussion that runs on a loop.
CIG said Gamescom was their main focus when they pulled out of E3. So it's now CitizenCon? Sounds like Gamescom is looking like a non-event for SC at this point.
Just wondering why they are bothering to go to GC if they haven't got anything new to show.
CIG said Gamescom was their main focus when they pulled out of E3. So it's now CitizenCon? Sounds like Gamescom is looking like a non-event for SC at this point.
Just wondering why they are bothering to go to GC if they haven't got anything new to show.
Don't take random posts based on speculation as factual information. What CIG said towards gamescon remains, as what they said already was that Gamescon this year wouldn't be that whole stage event with the big feature reveal, while they'll still do reveals the focus is on SC's hub on GC.
On nothing new to show, it's more than clear that they have, after all most of this year was the continuous development and focus on the development side on the PG Systems / Planets, on progress made that is much teased but not shown, i'd bet that is one of the guarantees to see at GC. Then there's SQ42 on witch they promised to show more during this year and they haven't yet.
So it's now CitizenCon? Sounds like Gamescom is looking like a non-event for SC at this point.
And you base this opinion not on facts or official CIG announcements but on the personal opinion of a forum poster named @VIM24 here in this thread?
Having a main showroom floor booth with a full scale mockup of an Idris bridge sounds like preparing for a non-event for you? All week evenings full of off-site fan events like BarCitizen Cologne sounds like that too?
Is Star Citizen a cult? So much passion about a game that is how far from full mmoish launch? I honestly dont know. Digging through hundreds of posts of people arguing about tiny details isn't helping.
I am not sure if is a cult or just a lot of PR companies hired.
I corrected your 4 years statement. The KS launched in Oct 2012. And that people - erroneously - then assume that a bunch of coders simply get to work. Not the case even in an established company. Let alone one that needs to be set up.
<snip>
Game development began around October 2011 Gervaise1
I know the history well enough but did it really?
Its the same question as "How long did Wildstar take?" or "How long did Destiny take?".
Was there some work done on SC prior to the KS - absolutely. Does that represent the project being greenlit? Two years worth of "work" was done on Wildstar - probably including agreeing a price with NCSoft - should that count to development? And some work will have been done by Bungee before they signed the deal with Activision Blizzard? This "project initiation" period tends to be "long on time" but "low on cost".
Project development is usually measured - and not just on software projects - from when "the full project" gets the go-ahead. In simple terms the point at which they get the money. And if the KS had failed CS would not have progressed. Financing is the single biggest drag on all projects. You sit down with an architect and come up with the design of your dream house - 6 months say; then two years with the bank managers sorting out a loan but once agreed it is built in a year. Typically that is called a one year build. You could call in 3.5 years though.
So yeah some "concept stuff" was done prior to the KS but I suggest that calling it "development" is the wrong term. Its would be fine though if people then went on to compare like with like - but they don't because when a company announces that they are starting development of a game - and it comes out 2, 3, 5 or whatever years later they have already got all their ducks lined up. Internal stuff - whatever Titan was for example - we rarely get to hear about.
And that is why I said (some) people erroneously assume "coders simply get to work".
You know, I agree that the serious work is all post KS. But both Roberts and Freyermuth were on record as claiming that had a year or so development in already. When it was convenient for them to claim that. I doubt they had much development done at all -- because, you know, Chris Roberts.
Late last year my predictions were that they'd need to release Squadron 42 in 2016 to maintain their credibility. That's fast slipping. They've got two conventions to show the flag, and to shore up the faithful and demonstrate substantive progress. Should be easier to develop and deploy the solo campaign. Right?
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I love the concept of Star Citizen. They have some legends guiding this project that you can't deny. I'm just tired of hearing updates, and this and that. They are way overdue, and have hardly ever been on time with their predictions. Until the game gets made I'm going to ignore these fluff threads that just advertise hype, which in my opinion should be in a special category marked Kickstarter games.
I love the concept of Star Citizen. They have some legends guiding this project that you can't deny. I'm just tired of hearing updates, and this and that. They are way overdue, and have hardly ever been on time with their predictions. Until the game gets made I'm going to ignore these fluff threads that just advertise hype, which in my opinion should be in a special category marked Kickstarter games.
Dreams and visions is always nice and welcome. Until they start charging you money and deliver very little of what they had promised at the start.
Comments
You need to be very careful when you talk about DX12 implementations, there can be superficial ones that are easy to implement, and in-depth ones, obviously games that went with superficial only end up with part of the benefits, witch is why King of Wushu doesn't have as a good a performance jump from DX11 to 12 as other games i've seen. It's like the older MMO's that ported from DX9 to 10/11 some with very good results others with the contrary, it always depends of how much to the devs put into it, this is the same thing when we talk about VR Support. We've already seen from devs at CIG several times mentioning that they want a proper DX12 not just throw it in. Then ofc you have Vulkan in mind here as well but that ain't too hard after DX12 is done.
And yes Trion Worlds must have had fun with the 12 players FPS match CE netcode to create a MMO with it, even though Archeage still does suffer problems on that area.
― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
You have stated that you expect to have an Alpha up and going in about 12 months, with a beta roughly 10 months after that and then launch. For a game of this size and scope, do you think you can really be done in the next two years?
Really it is all about constant iteration from launch. The whole idea is to be constantly updating. It isn’t like the old days where you had to have everything and the kitchen sink in at launch because you weren’t going to come back to it for awhile. We’re already one year in - another two years puts us at 3 total which is ideal. Any more and things would begin to get stale.
― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
Very brave of you to quote that . The 64 bit thing has been talked about before, they are trying to do it, and indeed they need to do it. I think they'll muck it up -- past history you know.
Hopefully the coders will have time while they try to get Squadron 42 out the door. (dang, this post is looking all wonky now. More fun with MMORPG formatting)
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Those claims varied depending on what was convenient at the time. There may have been work done, or it may have been next to nothing. Can't trust Roberts pronouncements on things.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Alpha 2.5 is planned to be on LIVE server for all backers before GamesCon 2016 (21st August).
The "Argo" is the utility vehicle first seen in "The Morrow Tour", used for inter ship transfer, shuttle trips and pilot rescue.
Have fun
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
If I understand correctly what they are trying to do, information about Sq42 will come at Citizencon. CIG will try to have as much new stuff as possible in that event, thus leading the end of year sales bonanza that makes them $5-8M.
I expect a "shock and awe" campaign from them on Citizencon, especially if Sq42 is delayed into 2017 and has to be communicated there and then. Trailers, sneak peeks, a large ship sale (corvette?), procedural tech, 2.7 launching on the PTU etc etc..
Passion for passion and hatred for hatred?
~~btw, the arguing about little details on pointless discussions that change nothing is pretty much what the discussions are turned into for most of it, classic Internet forum circular discussion that runs on a loop.
Just wondering why they are bothering to go to GC if they haven't got anything new to show.
On nothing new to show, it's more than clear that they have, after all most of this year was the continuous development and focus on the development side on the PG Systems / Planets, on progress made that is much teased but not shown, i'd bet that is one of the guarantees to see at GC. Then there's SQ42 on witch they promised to show more during this year and they haven't yet.
Having a main showroom floor booth with a full scale mockup of an Idris bridge sounds like preparing for a non-event for you? All week evenings full of off-site fan events like BarCitizen Cologne sounds like that too?
Have fun
Have fun
Are you going?
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Have fun
Have fun
Its the same question as "How long did Wildstar take?" or "How long did Destiny take?".
Was there some work done on SC prior to the KS - absolutely. Does that represent the project being greenlit? Two years worth of "work" was done on Wildstar - probably including agreeing a price with NCSoft - should that count to development? And some work will have been done by Bungee before they signed the deal with Activision Blizzard? This "project initiation" period tends to be "long on time" but "low on cost".
Project development is usually measured - and not just on software projects - from when "the full project" gets the go-ahead. In simple terms the point at which they get the money. And if the KS had failed CS would not have progressed. Financing is the single biggest drag on all projects. You sit down with an architect and come up with the design of your dream house - 6 months say; then two years with the bank managers sorting out a loan but once agreed it is built in a year. Typically that is called a one year build. You could call in 3.5 years though.
So yeah some "concept stuff" was done prior to the KS but I suggest that calling it "development" is the wrong term. Its would be fine though if people then went on to compare like with like - but they don't because when a company announces that they are starting development of a game - and it comes out 2, 3, 5 or whatever years later they have already got all their ducks lined up. Internal stuff - whatever Titan was for example - we rarely get to hear about.
And that is why I said (some) people erroneously assume "coders simply get to work".
You know, I agree that the serious work is all post KS. But both Roberts and Freyermuth were on record as claiming that had a year or so development in already. When it was convenient for them to claim that. I doubt they had much development done at all -- because, you know, Chris Roberts.
Late last year my predictions were that they'd need to release Squadron 42 in 2016 to maintain their credibility. That's fast slipping. They've got two conventions to show the flag, and to shore up the faithful and demonstrate substantive progress. Should be easier to develop and deploy the solo campaign. Right?
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.