They'll have to revisit code in any way once testing starts, once it releases and beyond, so we see the feature is complete once it works without breaking issues.
We can see that when they face breaking bugs blocking completion they'll delay the feature.
So the Feature Complete is pretty much ready for testing, would mean it's functional.
My earlier comment wasn't meant personally for you. But rather to what's been discussed during last 7 or so pages. I think I made a bad choice quoting that post at all. Sorry.
How can PUaC be feature complete when all these other features which are linked to it are not?
This depends on terminology. Feature Complete generally means that they are not adding anything new to it. However, there is still code churn. There was a reference to Code Complete earlier on in your post. That's more likely a reference to something where there is zero code churn or churn is limited to higher-priority or game-breaking bugs.
Ok, I understand what you are saying, but I was under the impression that they were using the term feature complete in the schedule to mean that the feature itself needed no more work, and was ready to be implemented.
And it seems that it is just "feature complete" in terms of not adding more features in this iteration. There will be more situations to catch in the future when other game mechanics are worked on.
Like feature complete ship hulls without having most ship mechanics finished.
Pickup and Carry seems to refer to the characer animations, parenting and basic mesh collider control of the stuff (which is indeed ... basic). And oh this small thing alone will lead to such a plethora of new wonderful bugs.
5+ years in pre-Alpha ***New record!***
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
My earlier comment wasn't meant personally for you. But rather to what's been discussed during last 7 or so pages. I think I made a bad choice quoting that post at all. Sorry.
Like feature complete ship hulls without having most ship mechanics finished.
Pickup and Carry seems to refer to the characer animations, parenting and basic mesh collider control of the stuff (which is indeed ... basic). And oh this small thing alone will lead to such a plethora of new wonderful bugs.
1) that's untruthful, by the time ships are marked as completed they were already shown in ATV's both exteriors, interiors, damage models, VFX and ofc the ship functionally working.
That's when it's marked as feature complete, bug-fixing wouldn't be included unless it's blocking issues.
2 ) It's the ability to pick and carry stuff, it's rather independent of cargo because cargo is as shown one automated mechanic via KIOSK's that spawn stuff inside your ship.
What would break pick and carry is physic grids (as the last bugs shown) or even animations, but I assume the physics grids have to interact with cargo/inventory to account what you manually placed inside the ship.
2 ) It's the ability to pick and carry stuff, it's rather independent of cargo because cargo is as shown one automated mechanic via KIOSK's that spawn stuff inside your ship.
That does not make sense.
How can it be independent of the item it lets you interact with?
PICK UP & CARRY
As we’re introducing cargo with 3.0.0, players will be able to manually interact with their cargo to load and unload it properly on their ships.
It is right there, in its description, manually interact with CARGO.
How can it be independent of the item it lets you interact with?
So feature complete in the schedule is when the feature needs no more work.
1) Because it's the mechanic to transport items. Cargo is a mechanic that spawns items inside your ship.
If anything Pickup and Carry places the item inside the physics grid of a ship, and the grid itself is what needs to be aware of what you placed to perhaps display it in the inventory/cargo manifest.
2) It's feature complete when it's functionality complete, this happens before the testing phases begin, the bug-fixing is a long process but there are things that are blockers are others that aren't, and the blockers are what blocks it from being functionality complete.
MaxBacon said: Because it's the mechanic to transport items. Cargo is a mechanic that spawns items inside your ship.
PUaC allows you to interact with CARGO, as in, pick up items that are in your ships cargo hold, and move them around. Read the description in the schedule itself, or you could just read it in my posts above, but actually READ it.
Cargo is not just a mechanic to spawn items, Cargo IS items.
So if Cargo is not completed, how do they know PUaC really is feature complete.
Making it as simple as possible:
Cargo is a mechanic that spawns a box. The box is an item that is cargo in your ships hold. Pick Up and Carry allows you to move the box (cargo). Cargo is not feature complete, the box is missing a side (for example). How do you know Pick Up and Carry works when you have no box to test it with.
How can PUaC be feature complete when all these other features which are linked to it are not?
This depends on terminology. Feature Complete generally means that they are not adding anything new to it. However, there is still code churn. There was a reference to Code Complete earlier on in your post. That's more likely a reference to something where there is zero code churn or churn is limited to higher-priority or game-breaking bugs.
Ok, I understand what you are saying, but I was under the impression that they were using the term feature complete in the schedule to mean that the feature itself needed no more work, and was ready to be implemented.
In addition to what @CrazKanuk says I would add that the term "feature complete" will apply to whatever the scope of work was that they planned to complete for - in this case - 3.0.
So the task PUaC (for 3.0) might have been complete the basic mechanics knowing full well that some extra stuff will be needed pre-launch; we can't assume that a task means "totally complete as it will be when the game launches". So when they say "feature complete" they are talking about what they planned to do at this point in time.
As @Kefo says the key thing is "is it in the alpha?".
Couple of things about what to expect in updates.
First - as mentioned above - the "work scope" associated with all tasks is "at this moment in time". Now as a result of the development videos we can get a very good idea of what some of the tasks are but we mustn't extrapolate.
Second - since the alpha first launched there have been multiple updates. This has started the process of establishing a "history" of RSI showcasing a feature and subsequently releasing it. Not releasing said features would bite them. As I have said before the alpha cuts both ways: it stops the stupid "its just jpegs" comments but it also keeps the hype in check.
So its reasonable to assume that - as and when 3.0 does launch - it will have the features that have / are being talked about.
How everything comes together though - that really is a case of wait for the alpha.
PUaC allows you to interact with CARGO, as in, pick up items that are in your ships cargo hold, and move them around. Read the description in the schedule itself, or you could just read it in my posts above, but actually READ it.
Cargo is not just a mechanic to spawn items, Cargo IS items.
So if Cargo is not completed, how do they know PUaC really is feature complete.
Making it as simple as possible:
Cargo is a mechanic that spawns a box. The box is an item that is cargo in your ships hold. Pick Up and Carry allows you to move the box (cargo). Cargo is not feature complete, the box is missing a side (for example). How do you know Pick Up and Carry works when you have no box to test it with.
Okay you're confusing stuff.
The cargo you see there completed is a backend thing to allow to spawn items inside the ship, go to a KIOSK, get the ship info, the cargo details and all that jazz, be able to buy and sell stuff from within it, once you do it then updates it.
Now let me explain what is this first iteration of Cargo:
- The first iteration seems to be independent of each other, the Cargo you buy and sell is spawned and de-spawned from the selected cargo grids inside your ship.
- The Pickup & Carry I don't think it will in 3.0 be able to interact with that spawned cargo, say pick a box from the generated stack, or place one there, you'd interact with the cargo that is detached from it (that you manually placed there in the first place).
- The pick and carry attm for 3.0 would be the ability to go pick loot say a ship wreck or so and manually place it inside your ship in a sandbox matter, like you wouldn't drop it into those cargo grids that is what cargo is about.
This might be implemented differently but that is what I understand from this first iteration of cargo to happen in 3.0, where those two are initially independent of each other.
MaxBacon said: Because it's the mechanic to transport items. Cargo is a mechanic that spawns items inside your ship.
PUaC allows you to interact with CARGO, as in, pick up items that are in your ships cargo hold, and move them around. Read the description in the schedule itself, or you could just read it in my posts above, but actually READ it.
Cargo is not just a mechanic to spawn items, Cargo IS items.
So if Cargo is not completed, how do they know PUaC really is feature complete.
Making it as simple as possible:
Cargo is a mechanic that spawns a box. The box is an item that is cargo in your ships hold. Pick Up and Carry allows you to move the box (cargo). Cargo is not feature complete, the box is missing a side (for example). How do you know Pick Up and Carry works when you have no box to test it with.
They've managed to finish shooting at another player's avatar even though player avatars are still unfinished (female missing).
Think of pick up and carry the same way. They don't need to finish every kind of box and every other mechanism related to boxes before making it so that they can be picked up and carried.
PUaC allows you to interact with CARGO, as in, pick up items that are in your ships cargo hold, and move them around. Read the description in the schedule itself, or you could just read it in my posts above, but actually READ it.
Cargo is not just a mechanic to spawn items, Cargo IS items.
So if Cargo is not completed, how do they know PUaC really is feature complete.
Making it as simple as possible:
Cargo is a mechanic that spawns a box. The box is an item that is cargo in your ships hold. Pick Up and Carry allows you to move the box (cargo). Cargo is not feature complete, the box is missing a side (for example). How do you know Pick Up and Carry works when you have no box to test it with.
Okay you're confusing stuff.
The cargo you see there completed is a backend thing to allow to spawn items inside the ship, go to a KIOSK, get the ship info, the cargo details and all that jazz, be able to buy and sell stuff from within it, once you do it then updates it.
Now let me explain what is this first iteration of Cargo:
- The first iteration seems to be independent of each other, the Cargo you buy and sell is spawned and de-spawned from the selected cargo grids inside your ship.
- The Pickup & Carry I don't think it will in 3.0 be able to interact with that spawned cargo, say pick a box from the generated stack, or place one there, you'd interact with the cargo that is detached from it (that you manually placed there in the first place).
- The pick and carry attm for 3.0 would be the ability to go pick loot say a ship wreck or so and manually place it inside your ship in a sandbox matter, like you wouldn't drop it into those cargo grids that is what cargo is about.
This might be implemented differently but that is what I understand from this first iteration of cargo to happen in 3.0, where those two are initially independent of each other.
That makes more sense.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
How can PUaC be feature complete when all these other features which are linked to it are not?
This depends on terminology. Feature Complete generally means that they are not adding anything new to it. However, there is still code churn. There was a reference to Code Complete earlier on in your post. That's more likely a reference to something where there is zero code churn or churn is limited to higher-priority or game-breaking bugs.
Ok, I understand what you are saying, but I was under the impression that they were using the term feature complete in the schedule to mean that the feature itself needed no more work, and was ready to be implemented.
Yeah, so in a phased development process Feature Complete would usually represent something which is done, minus bug fixes and maybe polish or optimizations. Code Complete would represent something where there is no further work being performed (unless QA finds something significant or something the PM won't sign off on). So you can have features with dependencies that are incomplete, as long as those dependencies don't directly impact the ability for "Feature A" to satisfy whatever requirements might be attached to it.
So, technically speaking, Feature Complete is certainly a quality of code that could be put into an alpha. In fact, it probably exceeds the level of quality that you'd traditionally expect in an alpha state.
The duke had us waiting from April 1997 until June 2011 ... thats slightly more than 14 years. Of which 10+ years were spent in pre-Alpha.
So ... as I said ... not even close.
Have fun
3D realms version of duke nukem forever was ditched and remade just like blizzard north's version of diablo 3 was ditched and remade. Even if we include them they aren't remotely the slow ones.
You have dwarf fortress which started development in 2002, still in alpha and given how the developer intend to add and add features its going to be in alpha in 2027.
Still, its not Grimoire: Heralds of the winged exemplar which has been in developed for more than 21 years. It did have a release date a week ago but failed to reach release again.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Pretty much how I feel about this alpha is the game's still in the heavy develope stage and lots of things are subject to change. I wouldn't even bother to argue about what's in alpha as over time I've seen a lot of things created, tested, then redone a few times over. Best to just wait for final beta and see how the game actually looks and works.
No doubt once the cargo and inventory system comes out it will need to be tweaked and perhaps even reworked a few times to better fit in with other unforeseen changes needed for the system.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Except it's not 5+ years and it's not in pre-alpha ...
Except they are still developing the tech for a lot of things, hence pre alpha.
Actually, pre-alpha would TECHNICALLY mean that it's in development and not publicly available. Alpha, generally, isn't even available to the public. Also, Alpha will frequently not contain all features. Beta is when external testers would begin actually testing, and even at that the game generally isn't and shouldn't be feature complete. Why? Beta should provide the developer with feedback on what works well, what doesn't, and what is broken. So performing Beta while a product is still actively being developed is ideal as loopbacks and redesigns become incrementally more costly when fixed at later stages of development.
So, yeah, even calling SC Alpha is a mistake. It's just like Destiny 2 calling itself a "Beta" when it's going to release a month after, lol. Mmmmmmk.... Yeahno.
Except it's not 5+ years and it's not in pre-alpha ...
Except they are still developing the tech for a lot of things, hence pre alpha.
Actually, pre-alpha would TECHNICALLY mean that it's in development and not publicly available. Alpha, generally, isn't even available to the public. Also, Alpha will frequently not contain all features. Beta is when external testers would begin actually testing, and even at that the game generally isn't and shouldn't be feature complete. Why? Beta should provide the developer with feedback on what works well, what doesn't, and what is broken. So performing Beta while a product is still actively being developed is ideal as loopbacks and redesigns become incrementally more costly when fixed at later stages of development.
So, yeah, even calling SC Alpha is a mistake. It's just like Destiny 2 calling itself a "Beta" when it's going to release a month after, lol. Mmmmmmk.... Yeahno.
Yeah the meaning of beta and alpha have been skewed lately but if you go off the definition of pre alpha that they are still developing software for the product then I would say SC is still pre alpha. Saying it's alpha or beta because it has testers is somewhat confusing though since not everything is done but then I do see the issue with saying pre alpha with testers in game lol
This is that type of cancerous discussion over terminology, the same goes for those discussions over what is Indie/AAA or what is and isn't an MMO, where everyone and their mothers have one opinion, terminology became too diluted.
It's all just semantic's, just accept the fact that it's going to take years before it's released, hopefully not an MVP release either, and people will be happy.
The only issue will be if the game is released as anything but perfect it's going to get savaged by players and critics.
And lets face it he's had more than enough money to make a kickass game.
“Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” ― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
i hope that the PU is only extended to 2 (max 3) full star systems for testing and then we test the hell out of those and they can take the feedback, bug reports, etc and apply them to the rest of the star systems so we do not spoil the game for ourselves. i am hoping since CIG is really careful not to spoil much of their game that that is the route they choose to follow.
"Cherish the quiet...before my STORM!" For a $5/5000 in-game credit bonus for backing Star Citizen (MMO) or Squadron 42 (Single Player/Co-op) use my Referral code: STAR-3QDY-SZBG
i hope that the PU is only extended to 2 (max 3) full star systems for testing and then we test the hell out of those and they can take the feedback, bug reports, etc and apply them to the rest of the star systems so we do not spoil the game for ourselves. i am hoping since CIG is really careful not to spoil much of their game that that is the route they choose to follow.
1 solar system is enough really, to roll out the mechanics and content that will obviously be the template they'll use for the other systems.
The only reason to add more than one system is when they indeed want to get jump points working and do proper content expansions, but that can very well be around what they'll call of Beta.
Comments
We can see that when they face breaking bugs blocking completion they'll delay the feature.
So the Feature Complete is pretty much ready for testing, would mean it's functional.
Oh okay then I read it wrong.
There will be more situations to catch in the future when other game mechanics are worked on.
Like feature complete ship hulls without having most ship mechanics finished.
Pickup and Carry seems to refer to the characer animations, parenting and basic mesh collider control of the stuff (which is indeed ... basic).
And oh this small thing alone will lead to such a plethora of new wonderful bugs.
5+ years in pre-Alpha ***New record!***
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
That's when it's marked as feature complete, bug-fixing wouldn't be included unless it's blocking issues.
2 ) It's the ability to pick and carry stuff, it's rather independent of cargo because cargo is as shown one automated mechanic via KIOSK's that spawn stuff inside your ship.
What would break pick and carry is physic grids (as the last bugs shown) or even animations, but I assume the physics grids have to interact with cargo/inventory to account what you manually placed inside the ship.
How can it be independent of the item it lets you interact with?
It is right there, in its description, manually interact with CARGO.
So feature complete in the schedule is when the feature needs no more work.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
If anything Pickup and Carry places the item inside the physics grid of a ship, and the grid itself is what needs to be aware of what you placed to perhaps display it in the inventory/cargo manifest.
2) It's feature complete when it's functionality complete, this happens before the testing phases begin, the bug-fixing is a long process but there are things that are blockers are others that aren't, and the blockers are what blocks it from being functionality complete.
Read the description in the schedule itself, or you could just read it in my posts above, but actually READ it.
Cargo is not just a mechanic to spawn items, Cargo IS items.
So if Cargo is not completed, how do they know PUaC really is feature complete.
Making it as simple as possible:
Cargo is a mechanic that spawns a box.
The box is an item that is cargo in your ships hold.
Pick Up and Carry allows you to move the box (cargo).
Cargo is not feature complete, the box is missing a side (for example).
How do you know Pick Up and Carry works when you have no box to test it with.
This is where the problem arises.
PUaC is listed as feature complete, Cargo is not.
So they are saying that PUaC is functionally complete, but Cargo is not.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
In addition to what @CrazKanuk says I would add that the term "feature complete" will apply to whatever the scope of work was that they planned to complete for - in this case - 3.0.
So the task PUaC (for 3.0) might have been complete the basic mechanics knowing full well that some extra stuff will be needed pre-launch; we can't assume that a task means "totally complete as it will be when the game launches". So when they say "feature complete" they are talking about what they planned to do at this point in time.
As @Kefo says the key thing is "is it in the alpha?".
Couple of things about what to expect in updates.
First - as mentioned above - the "work scope" associated with all tasks is "at this moment in time". Now as a result of the development videos we can get a very good idea of what some of the tasks are but we mustn't extrapolate.
Second - since the alpha first launched there have been multiple updates. This has started the process of establishing a "history" of RSI showcasing a feature and subsequently releasing it. Not releasing said features would bite them. As I have said before the alpha cuts both ways: it stops the stupid "its just jpegs" comments but it also keeps the hype in check.
So its reasonable to assume that - as and when 3.0 does launch - it will have the features that have / are being talked about.
How everything comes together though - that really is a case of wait for the alpha.
The cargo you see there completed is a backend thing to allow to spawn items inside the ship, go to a KIOSK, get the ship info, the cargo details and all that jazz, be able to buy and sell stuff from within it, once you do it then updates it.
Now let me explain what is this first iteration of Cargo:
- The first iteration seems to be independent of each other, the Cargo you buy and sell is spawned and de-spawned from the selected cargo grids inside your ship.
- The Pickup & Carry I don't think it will in 3.0 be able to interact with that spawned cargo, say pick a box from the generated stack, or place one there, you'd interact with the cargo that is detached from it (that you manually placed there in the first place).
- The pick and carry attm for 3.0 would be the ability to go pick loot say a ship wreck or so and manually place it inside your ship in a sandbox matter, like you wouldn't drop it into those cargo grids that is what cargo is about.
This might be implemented differently but that is what I understand from this first iteration of cargo to happen in 3.0, where those two are initially independent of each other.
e.g. "LoD" ... a decade ....
Have fun
Think of pick up and carry the same way. They don't need to finish every kind of box and every other mechanism related to boxes before making it so that they can be picked up and carried.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
The duke had us waiting from April 1997 until June 2011 ... thats slightly more than 14 years.
Of which 10+ years were spent in pre-Alpha.
So ... as I said ... not even close.
Have fun
Yeah, so in a phased development process Feature Complete would usually represent something which is done, minus bug fixes and maybe polish or optimizations. Code Complete would represent something where there is no further work being performed (unless QA finds something significant or something the PM won't sign off on). So you can have features with dependencies that are incomplete, as long as those dependencies don't directly impact the ability for "Feature A" to satisfy whatever requirements might be attached to it.
So, technically speaking, Feature Complete is certainly a quality of code that could be put into an alpha. In fact, it probably exceeds the level of quality that you'd traditionally expect in an alpha state.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
You have dwarf fortress which started development in 2002, still in alpha and given how the developer intend to add and add features its going to be in alpha in 2027.
Still, its not Grimoire: Heralds of the winged exemplar which has been in developed for more than 21 years. It did have a release date a week ago but failed to reach release again.
No doubt once the cargo and inventory system comes out it will need to be tweaked and perhaps even reworked a few times to better fit in with other unforeseen changes needed for the system.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Viking
So, yeah, even calling SC Alpha is a mistake. It's just like Destiny 2 calling itself a "Beta" when it's going to release a month after, lol. Mmmmmmk.... Yeahno.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
This is that type of cancerous discussion over terminology, the same goes for those discussions over what is Indie/AAA or what is and isn't an MMO, where everyone and their mothers have one opinion, terminology became too diluted.
The only issue will be if the game is released as anything but perfect it's going to get savaged by players and critics.
And lets face it he's had more than enough money to make a kickass game.
― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
"Cherish the quiet...before my STORM!"
For a $5/5000 in-game credit bonus for backing Star Citizen (MMO) or Squadron 42 (Single Player/Co-op) use my Referral code: STAR-3QDY-SZBG
1 solar system is enough really, to roll out the mechanics and content that will obviously be the template they'll use for the other systems.
The only reason to add more than one system is when they indeed want to get jump points working and do proper content expansions, but that can very well be around what they'll call of Beta.