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SteamOS machines and Linux desktops are sliding into irrelevance.

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  • FlyingDutchmasterFlyingDutchmaster Member UncommonPosts: 9
    Sliding? More like PLUMNMETING
  • NetSageNetSage Member UncommonPosts: 1,059
    The reason is simple.  Microsoft helps game devs.  They make directx and it makes game dev that much easier for them.
  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,380
    As an IT professional, I never understood why people choose Linux based OS's (Linux is not an OS) to game with. I use it every day (Red Hat) on the job for very specific tasks and it excels at those tasks.  One of those tasks is not gaming.

    Windows has gaming written all over it.  It's easy to learn, easy to configure, games install on it with little to no effort on the user end and, for the most part, they work correctly right out of the box.  If you have an issue, then there are a million other Windows gamers that could have had the same issue and can help you with the solution.

    I will never understand how Gabe Newell can stand in front of Linux developer's conferences year after year and claim that Linux is the future of gaming.  If he really believes this, then he's oblivious to one of the most basic traits of human nature.   Which is that Hoomans will almost invariably take the comfortable route when given the choice and Windows is the most comfortable choice of them all.  Well, except Windows 8.. what a shitshow.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited March 2016
    H0urg1ass said:
    As an IT professional, I never understood why people choose Linux based OS's (Linux is not an OS) to game with. 
    just so you know I think the majority of internet traffic flows thru Linux. I am in IT and I know of some seroiusly powerful companies that have some heavy Linux presence. Its not my area but still..

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited March 2016
    something for all you guys to ponder while you are looking at 'current state'. Linux's 'current state' of the phone market around 2006 didnt even exist. now its the majorty, android. And that is all because one large company decided to make it happen.

    There is a large gaming company and very likely the one gaming company with the most money who now wants to make Linux happen and I might add in house the run nearly 100% Linux and Steam accounts for a great deal of overall internet traffic. But dont be scared you will still have other options

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,195
    SEANMCAD said:
    something for all you guys to ponder while you are looking at 'current state'. Linux's 'current state' of the phone market around 2006 didnt even exist. now its the majorty, android. And that is all because one large company decided to make it happen.

    There is a large gaming company and very likely the one gaming company with the most money who now wants to make Linux happen and I might add in house the run nearly 100% Linux and Steam accounts for a great deal of overall internet traffic. But dont be scared you will still have other options
    Nobody is scared... nobody is using linux or steamboxes.. windows is still far and away the better choice.  Android worked because it was funded and polished and had a huge push of support on launch.  Linux is also used in most automobile systems as well.

    With microsoft moving to their surface phones, the possibility of project astoria and UWP, there is a greater chance that microsoft will start to pick up some of those android and iOS consumers rather than linux suddenly gaining ground on Microsoft.



  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited March 2016
    SEANMCAD said:
    something for all you guys to ponder while you are looking at 'current state'. Linux's 'current state' of the phone market around 2006 didnt even exist. now its the majorty, android. And that is all because one large company decided to make it happen.

    There is a large gaming company and very likely the one gaming company with the most money who now wants to make Linux happen and I might add in house the run nearly 100% Linux and Steam accounts for a great deal of overall internet traffic. But dont be scared you will still have other options
    Nobody is scared... nobody is using linux or steamboxes.. windows is still far and away the better choice.  Android worked because it was funded and polished and had a huge push of support on launch.  Linux is also used in most automobile systems as well.

    With microsoft moving to their surface phones, the possibility of project astoria and UWP, there is a greater chance that microsoft will start to pick up some of those android and iOS consumers rather than linux suddenly gaining ground on Microsoft.
    ok now its my turn to laugh.

    windows and phones....lol

    it could happen though which is my point. In the area of technology its faulty to assume tomorrow will resemble the numbers of today

    Could ONE company that is well funded make Linux the main OS for an entire large scale IT sector? 
    yes

    because its already happened once....Android

    Valve has already stated (parphrased) 'the main reason Linux hasnt gotten off well in the gaming market is because no company has strongly supported it. We have decided to make a long term investment in making this happen for llinux'

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    SEANMCAD said:
    H0urg1ass said:
    As an IT professional, I never understood why people choose Linux based OS's (Linux is not an OS) to game with. 
    just so you know I think the majority of internet traffic flows thru Linux. I am in IT and I know of some seroiusly powerful companies that have some heavy Linux presence. Its not my area but still..
    Yeah, but most of the internet traffic isn't going through Desktop Linux distros, and certainly not machines that dual-purpose as gaming rigs, and that's what @Hourg1ass meant - not that he can't understand why Linux is used at all.
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383

    H0urg1ass said:
    Windows has gaming written all over it.  It's easy to learn, easy to configure, games install on it with little to no effort on the user end and, for the most part, they work correctly right out of the box.  If you have an issue, then there are a million other Windows gamers that could have had the same issue and can help you with the solution.

    I will never understand how Gabe Newell can stand in front of Linux developer's conferences year after year and claim that Linux is the future of gaming.  If he really believes this, then he's oblivious to one of the most basic traits of human nature.   Which is that Hoomans will almost invariably take the comfortable route when given the choice and Windows is the most comfortable choice of them all.  Well, except Windows 8.. what a shitshow.

    I agree with the first part for the most part - Windows is relatively easy to use, and relatively easy to develop for, so it's no surprise it's the market leader. And I agree that right now, Linux is in no place to provide any competition - Quiz hit upon it pretty well - largely because there is no unifying direction (apart from Linus, who's focus is on the kernel). There are so many different forks that no cohesion has developed, and all of them remain half-polished because no one fork can get enough support behind it.

    The second part, though, could change. Valve does have the resources, should they choose to commit them, to making a Linux distro that does have cohesion, polish, and support. They could make a unified linux distro as easy to use as Windows, or even easy and comfortable enough to rival a console if it's just for gaming purposes.

    The only issue that I doubt with SteamOS is driver support - Valve can't control the GPU manufacturer's driver support and no one has had any luck creating a high performance third party driver to date. The best Gabe can hope to do is to ask the GPU manufacturers really nicely and hope that something happens. And to date this is still what I see as the major issue with SteamOS.

    I don't think SteamOS needs to be necessarily faster than Windows, but it should be easier to use and comparable in performance on the same hardware - no one will migrate to it if they have to give up a lot, and right now migrating is asking for users to give up (or inconvenience with dual booting) and entire Windows library, and access a much smaller Linux library (that for the most part is also available on Windows), with worse performance - and that's too much to ask and have SteamOS be successful. It could change (I don't know that it will), but it'll be a long process, not an overnight thing.
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    While Linux based gaming isn't making huge strides I do think that Newell should be commended for attempting to offer people an alternative. Being totally reliant on one company's OS doesn't promote any competition and that's never good for anyone.

    Obviously 1% is miniscule but you don't break 30+ years worth of stanglehold overnight. At least Valve have the clout to try something.

    Just a shame they didn't use FreeBSD instead of crappy old Linux :p
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Ridelynn said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    H0urg1ass said:
    As an IT professional, I never understood why people choose Linux based OS's (Linux is not an OS) to game with. 
    just so you know I think the majority of internet traffic flows thru Linux. I am in IT and I know of some seroiusly powerful companies that have some heavy Linux presence. Its not my area but still..
    Yeah, but most of the internet traffic isn't going through Desktop Linux distros, and certainly not machines that dual-purpose as gaming rigs, and that's what @Hourg1ass meant - not that he can't understand why Linux is used at all.
    Well its the 'IT Proffesional' part that made me wish to make that comment. That field covers more than just office desktops

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    DarkHigh said:
    I'm just dying laughing at the people saying linux is irrelevant and linux is dying. First off Linux is a kernel not an OS - Ubuntu, CentOS, ReactOS, Linux Mint, Debian, Fedora those are operating systems that are built on the linux kernel.
    ReactOS is not Linux.

    Linux only works when it moves away from open source to closed source. Operating systems are much too complex for an open source community to handle. You need people with a CS degree who know what they're doing, it's not something an open source community can handle anymore.

    Ubuntu moved from an open source system supported by the community, to one where they can employ full time developers, and that explains part of its success. But even Ubuntu does not have enough driver support, nor is it use friendly enough compared to Windows.
  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    edited March 2016
    Here the problem SteamOS been out a year that anyone can use and install, steam machine only been out a few months and vulkan just can out few weeks ago. Seem like people thinking that linux is some type of magic wands if valve waves it then linux become better windows. It will takes years of investment.

    Look at windows store never beat steam but may end up good amount people investment in to it, same with steam os, or linux. It will just take time and investment.
  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    edited March 2016
    Here the problem SteamOS been out a year that anyone can use and install, steam machine only been out a few months and vulkan just can out few weeks ago. Seem like people thinking that linux is some type of magic wands if valve waves it then linux become better windows. It will takes years of investment.

    Look at windows store never beat steam but may end up good amount people investment in to it, same with steam os, or linux. It will just take time and investment.
    The main reason SteamOS isn't gaining traction is because it's a solution to a non-existing problem.

    People who want to play on their TV, can either use a console, or hook up Windows or MacOS to their TV set. There isn't a problem there to begin with, it's already a crowded market, and SteamOS does not offer any advantages over the existing solutions. It offers only disadvantages.

    SteamOS is OUYA 2.0
  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    edited March 2016
    Waterlily said:
    Here the problem SteamOS been out a year that anyone can use and install, steam machine only been out a few months and vulkan just can out few weeks ago. Seem like people thinking that linux is some type of magic wands if valve waves it then linux become better windows. It will takes years of investment.

    Look at windows store never beat steam but may end up good amount people investment in to it, same with steam os, or linux. It will just take time and investment.
    The main reason SteamOS isn't gaining traction is because it's a solution to a non-existing problem.

    People who want to play on their TV, can either use a console, or hook up Windows or MacOS to their TV set. There isn't a problem there to begin with, it's already a crowded market, and SteamOS does not offer any advantages over the existing solutions. It offers only disadvantages.

    SteamOS is OUYA 2.0
    Like I said will take years of investment, If you try to hook up windows or MacOS it's not controller friendly even in big picture mode. SteamOS does help with that being more controller friendly then the other OS with out needed a keyboard or mouse when something go's wrong. It's just making it easy for pc for the living room then being a everyday OS.

    SteamOS can be a OUTA 2.0 but with more games some really good, some bad. The OS will not take over the world but more and more games being being for linux is the big plan and it's working.

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    I still see linux will grow but not the way people think then more that people end up dual booting windows and linux until most there games are working fine on linux and more games getting ported there. Pretty sure valve knows this that linux will not take off in a few months it will take years of work, and yes windows still being around and the top dog for a very long time but not windows 10 when windows 7 still have mass the market share.

    Only part if mircosoft better not keep messing up what there doing with windows 10, that mass of market share on the windows 7 user may see linux OS a option if newer games keep coming to it.

    Time will tell no one knows how this will turn out.
    The problem is, unless Linux gets more support, then it doesn't matter how bad Win 10 gets, it will just mean people on Win 7/8 will stay with those OS's, at least for the next few years, as Win 7 is currently the dominant OS, and even Win 8 has a larger userbase than Win 10.
    Sadly, Linux is not a replacement for Windows, at least not for gamers, if it was, then MS would be in even more trouble than they are already.
  • kishekishe Member UncommonPosts: 2,012
    Linux gaming is actually popular, considering android = modded linux
  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,534
    i like the "sliding into" part, kinda implies they ever were of relevance :surprised: 

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    edited March 2016
    Phry said:
    I still see linux will grow but not the way people think then more that people end up dual booting windows and linux until most there games are working fine on linux and more games getting ported there. Pretty sure valve knows this that linux will not take off in a few months it will take years of work, and yes windows still being around and the top dog for a very long time but not windows 10 when windows 7 still have mass the market share.

    Only part if mircosoft better not keep messing up what there doing with windows 10, that mass of market share on the windows 7 user may see linux OS a option if newer games keep coming to it.

    Time will tell no one knows how this will turn out.
    The problem is, unless Linux gets more support, then it doesn't matter how bad Win 10 gets, it will just mean people on Win 7/8 will stay with those OS's, at least for the next few years, as Win 7 is currently the dominant OS, and even Win 8 has a larger userbase than Win 10.
    Sadly, Linux is not a replacement for Windows, at least not for gamers, if it was, then MS would be in even more trouble than they are already.
    It's never will be a replacement to windows I agree with that, SteamOS it self never was meant to be a replacement more of a gateway for more games being made on linux and thats is working. They are more made games on linux now then a year ago and keeps on growing even with the small % base still games are being made.

    Just time will tell how it will turn out, in a few years see where it stand I can see it fail or being a option more then that may never happen due to people have so much investment in to windows for a very long time.

     
  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,380
    Torval said:
    Ridelynn said:

    H0urg1ass said:
    Stuff

    I agree with the first part for the most part - Windows is relatively easy to use, and relatively easy to develop for, so it's no surprise it's the market leader. And I agree that right now, Linux is in no place to provide any competition - Quiz hit upon it pretty well - largely because there is no unifying direction (apart from Linus, who's focus is on the kernel). There are so many different forks that no cohesion has developed, and all of them remain half-polished because no one fork can get enough support behind it.

    The second part, though, could change. Valve does have the resources, should they choose to commit them, to making a Linux distro that does have cohesion, polish, and support. They could make a unified linux distro as easy to use as Windows, or even easy and comfortable enough to rival a console if it's just for gaming purposes.

    The only issue that I doubt with SteamOS is driver support - Valve can't control the GPU manufacturer's driver support and no one has had any luck creating a high performance third party driver to date. The best Gabe can hope to do is to ask the GPU manufacturers really nicely and hope that something happens. And to date this is still what I see as the major issue with SteamOS.

    I don't think SteamOS needs to be necessarily faster than Windows, but it should be easier to use and comparable in performance on the same hardware - no one will migrate to it if they have to give up a lot, and right now migrating is asking for users to give up (or inconvenience with dual booting) and entire Windows library, and access a much smaller Linux library (that for the most part is also available on Windows), with worse performance - and that's too much to ask and have SteamOS be successful. It could change (I don't know that it will), but it'll be a long process, not an overnight thing.
    Very well said. I would add.

    Warning wall of text ahead:

    The problem is the nature of the licensing, especially how GPL3 is worded, makes cohesion very hard if not impossible. There are core philosophies to GPL style open source (as opposed to BSD, Apache, MIT, and other open licenses) that make what they refer to as "Cathedral" style design very hard. Most Linux distros and open source projects are built around the "Bazaar" style philosophy of project management. But if you notice the most successful projects in that open source pool are driven a by a single source top down style of project management. The slowest most meandering, forked, and disjointed projects are the distributed Bazaar style. By its very nature, like you pointed out, that disjointed environment cripples its progress.

    It will take Valve and Newell more than just making a polished distro. It will take someone making a polished distro that is committed to the user. It has to move beyond community driven hobby projects. It needs a company to focus supporting it long term. No one is going to buy in long term to something they don't have confidence will be there and consistent tomorrow. That is why Microsoft and Apple own the desktop world. If I buy a Mac I know that if any company will be there tomorrow to support my OS, as a home user, Apple will. The same can be said for Microsoft. You can't say that about any specific Linux distro, even those that have been around a long time aren't focused on the home user as a seamless experience. As good as Fedora, openSUSE, Debian, and hobby distros like Mint, Sabian, Manjaro, and Cent are they aren't user focused. Even Ubuntu which is the sole distro to try and meet those requirements can't do it given the environment.

    This is something to consider, most open source devs I know use Macs to develop on and have Linux VMs on their machine or AWS to do their platform testing on. Why? Because they want a system that works, not one they have to fiddle with to do their work on.

    Linux needs to overcome those hurdles before they can become a viable gaming platform. It's not lack of games that is inhibiting Linux adoption. Since Steam has increased the number of games on Linux by factors that has been shown not to be the case. It is their fragmented disjointed uncertain environment that has pushed away adoption.
    I agree with most of what you're both saying here.  I especially agree that if anyone can produce a distro of Linux that has the potential to be the "one to rule them all", it would be Valve and Gabe Newell.  As far as being committed to the user, I don't think there's anyone who questions Valve/Steam longevity.  They're going to be around for as long as PC games are around unless they close their own doors.  If they were to develop a top down managed version of the kernel for gaming, then I would love to push Windows out of a moving car and use it instead.

    Gabe has the largest gaming distribution house in the world behind him, billions of dollars rolling in every year, and a love for the Linux Kernel.  Why he doesn't shift his considerable corporate weight towards developing such a product, I'll never know.

    Once they manage to create such an OS, I think that  a lot of game developers would be on board with developing for it.

    However, developing for two PC OS's would present a considerable additional cost in the development cycle, and we all know that additional costs are passed onto the consumer.  Some people simply will not give up the ease of use of Windows which will cause a fork in PC gaming development even worse than the console/PC fork because a simple port won't work to bring a Windows game to a new Linux OS... well unless they design it that way from the beginning.  Hrmmmm.  Lots to think about here really.
  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    H0urg1ass said:


    However, developing for two PC OS's would present a considerable additional cost in the development cycle, and we all know that additional costs are passed onto the consumer.  Some people simply will not give up the ease of use of Windows which will cause a fork in PC gaming development even worse than the console/PC fork because a simple port won't work to bring a Windows game to a new Linux OS... well unless they design it that way from the beginning.  Hrmmmm.  Lots to think about here really.
    Yeah this part yeah trying make a game that works on windows that runs on DX11 and then run it on linux it does cost the company even more time and money on it. Vulkan may help with that making it easy to port games to other OS then just windows, and so far each update vulkan as been getting slowly better with being from less then Opengl to little higher then Opengl.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    bestever said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Kiyoris said:
    Jamar870 said:
    Could it be the user friendlyness that isn't quite there when compared with Windows. Also Windows gaming has a larger and more established base in the Dev and user area.
    Pretty much, it's confusing to people. Too many distros, too many options. Not familiar, not user friendly.

    Second problem is not enough software and games.

    Third problem is lack of driver support. People want their hardware to work flawlessly. That means video cards, gaming mice, smartphones, cameras, etc.


    In fact, OS that aren't Linux, like ReactOS are becoming more popular than Linux. Linux is sliding into 4th place instead of 3rd in my opinion.
    The problem with Steam Machines is no adoption of Vulkan API yet.

    options? get used to it. No longer are the days of the consumer where you had no options. Options are what people want. The whole 'too many options' also comes off as PR speak from those who dont offer options.
    No point till developers start using it and it should just install the same way Direct X does or its a waste of time. 
    no point for what? no point in developers using it until developers adpot it? doesnt make sense not sure I am following you.

    what I am saying is that the problem with Steam Machine is that Vukan API came out like just a few weeks ago we have to wait until developers start to make games that use it

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited March 2016

    Phry said:
    I still see linux will grow but not the way people think then more that people end up dual booting windows and linux until most there games are working fine on linux and more games getting ported there. Pretty sure valve knows this that linux will not take off in a few months it will take years of work, and yes windows still being around and the top dog for a very long time but not windows 10 when windows 7 still have mass the market share.

    Only part if mircosoft better not keep messing up what there doing with windows 10, that mass of market share on the windows 7 user may see linux OS a option if newer games keep coming to it.

    Time will tell no one knows how this will turn out.
    The problem is, unless Linux gets more support, then it doesn't matter how bad Win 10 gets, it will just mean people on Win 7/8 will stay with those OS's, at least for the next few years, as Win 7 is currently the dominant OS, and even Win 8 has a larger userbase than Win 10.
    Sadly, Linux is not a replacement for Windows, at least not for gamers, if it was, then MS would be in even more trouble than they are already.
    I am going to illustrate a point again

    Prior to one large company getting behind the idea there was not a single phone with Linux on it. Now the majority of phones have it and it has made Microsoft entry into the market something they seem to not be able to do.

    Valve has stated that they want to be that company which gets behind linux and invests money, time and engery for the long run to make it revalant in the gaming industry. They said this just a few years ago, long term takes longer than a few years. More over, who is the major contributor to the creation of Vulkan? Valve

    what % of games have gone to Linux (as well as windows) in just a few years? something like 1 billion % :)

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Torval said:
    Google made the problems with Linux on a phone irrelevant with a modified kernel and their own Android  ecosystem. Notice how all other Linux platform phones have failed. Linux hasn't succeeded in the mobile market. Android succeeded in the mobile market despite it being Linux.

    Microsoft threw away the enterprise phone market and that's their fault.

    Apple is still the most profitable mobile market, through their app store at least, even though they don't dominate the install base. That's why the app store is still the go to store. People buy stuff from it.

    Until Valve solves problems of Linux desktop adoption it won't matter what else they try and do. Vulkan will be an attractive selling point, but won't cause the install base to grow.
    for all intents and purposes SteamOS is a modified version of Linux for gaming like...Android.

    You are now starting to dig into the minor details in hopes to explain why its not possible to do what Valve has said they want to do. It doesnt ahve to be EXACT, it just simply prooves that a large company with billions of dollars (like microsoft) can in fact change the status of gaming

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  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    When games are released on Windows and Linux simultaneously, and install and run just as effortlessly on both platforms, then I might consider switching from Win to a Linux OS.

    Until then, I'll be on Windows. I'm old and lazy, I want to be playing games, not spending hours and/or days tweaking my OS and hunting for drivers and workarounds every time I buy a new game...
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