Besides...Using such logic no one who has ever worked on or left a failed project, should work in the industry again. In most cases someone lost money (or according to displayed logic, people were scammed).
Why do you keep trying to twist my words and create the most crazy interpretations? How you get this:
"no one who has ever worked on or left a failed project, should work in the industry again."
When we are talking about the lead guy who was in charge, who did not plan well and left many people feeling ripped off?
For someone with a signature spouting logic and reason you sure do not seem to use much of it. All you do is take the specifics people are discussing and generalize the piss out of them. Here is another example from you:
"I can't look at every single instance of a failed project as a scam, or act of ill intent. "
No one is saying "every single instance" is a scam and I sure as heck did not, but you have no logic or real reason not to have concerns about this guy so you have to use generalizations to give your argument some credibility.
This guy was lead on a project, he made claims he would give one thing and then gave another (content over DLC) and now people who purchased from him feel ripped off.I guess in your world that makes him perfectly qualified to work at CIG. Personally, if I was a fan of CIG I would not want this guy in charge of anything. Now before you go twisting my words and making broad generalizations, notice I said "in charge" of anything. I would hire him to make art but I sure would not want him working as the Senior Art Manager.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Slight difference in leaving a project that still has people going full tilt on and leaving a project as the lead dev, going silent to your community and banning anyone who voices a negative opinion.
Well, that, and why do people seem to think it's just ok that every tom, dick and harry starts a crowdfunding campaign for a video game? Shouldn't these failures be taken to task? We should be working to raise the bar of "what's acceptable", not progressively lowering it, providing for every side show that wants to blow through town.
Well that's a much deeper topic than what's being discussed here. Here's my take on the current topic, you're essentially arguing (it seems so anyway) that if a project has unhappy customers/backers, these folks should stick with them, forgoing any other career opportunities, nor ever being eligible for any. To me that's expecting a bit much in a industry such as this. A crowd sourced project can fail just as easily if not much easier than a corporate backed one.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yeh, but, the extent of the damage to his reputation from the previous project? Link would be good.
I don't think it damaged his reputation what so ever, that wasn't the point. The question was should it have?
I don't know. You're the one not linking details. If it went "as far south" as the thread topic, then yes, regardless of your personal view. There is a relative, empirical right and wrong going on here, whether you want to admit it or otherwise.
Every single employee with a spot-free track record with absolute certainty?
Because, if so, please point out another company with 300+ employees that has proper vetting - and prove that it has.
My company of far more than 300 personnel does.
But then again, every single one of us has a Single Scope Background Investigation and we all hold security clearances.
And yes, if a company hires someone, then they should perform minimal checks and make sure they didn't do things like, ohhhh, I don't know, defraud people with a scam kickstarter before offering them employment. There's little reason this guy should be working in the industry again at all, much less on another project where backer funds have been used to fund the project.
Besides...Using such logic no one who has ever worked on or left a failed project, should work in the industry again. In most cases someone lost money (or according to displayed logic, people were scammed).
"I can't look at every single instance of a failed project as a scam, or act of ill intent. "
No one is saying "every single instance" is a scam and I sure as heck did not, but you have no logic or real reason not to have concerns about this guy so you have to use generalizations to give your argument some credibility.
This guy was lead on a project, he made claims he would give one thing and then gave another (content over DLC) and now people who purchased from him feel ripped off.I guess in your world that makes him perfectly qualified to work at CIG. Personally, if I was a fan of CIG I would not want this guy in charge of anything. Now before you go twisting my words and making broad generalizations, notice I said "in charge" of anything. I would hire him to make art but I sure would not want him working as the Senior Art Manager.
IF you want to discuss me take it to PM's...
No I didn't say he was qualified, my point was we're expected to make a character assessment based on a failed project. without really knowing the specifics of what went down. Outside of peoples complaints of the project, which in my experience aren't always representative of the actual real circumstances going on behind the scenes. People see he wants more money for more content, and automatically assume or declare..scam...That's people being people, it's nothing but knee-jerk reaction. Which has nothing to do with logic or reason.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yeh, but, the extent of the damage to his reputation from the previous project? Link would be good.
I don't think it damaged his reputation what so ever, that wasn't the point. The question was should it have?
I don't know. You're the one not linking details. If it went "as far south" as the thread topic, then yes, regardless of your personal view. There is a relative, empirical right and wrong going on here, whether you want to admit it or otherwise.
What do I need to link? Lead dev leaves star Citizen, gets job as Creative lead on Descent. Is that much different than this?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Every single employee with a spot-free track record with absolute certainty?
Because, if so, please point out another company with 300+ employees that has proper vetting - and prove that it has.
My company of far more than 300 personnel does.
But then again, every single one of us has a Single Scope Background Investigation and we all hold security clearances.
And yes, if a company hires someone, then they should perform minimal checks and make sure they didn't do things like, ohhhh, I don't know, defraud people with a scam kickstarter before offering them employment. There's little reason this guy should be working in the industry again at all, much less on another project where backer funds have been used to fund the project.
Case in point...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Am I going to find more of this if I take the time to dig?
Probably, there are plenty of cases of abandon-ware in the game industry. As well as cases of people leaving failing projects. Retrospectively, should the former lead developer recently the subject of a thread here get a job on Descent? He left a game all kinds of people pledged to, with all kinds of drama surrounding it.
Ah, ok. You're comparing apples and oranges. I don't know "who" is working on Descent, entirely, and I didn't know you were referring to Rob Irving, an employee, who left mid-point in the development process. A better comparison would be for Chris Roberts to leave SC, all production stop, and he turns up working on Shroud of the Avatar or some such.
Are you maybe just having fundamental problems with concepts in general, to posit examples as this? I give you some credit, like you know anything about the issue you refer, and you let me down in the process.
I see someone read my Reddit thread on /r/starcitizen, which has now been deleted by moderators and thus continues the cycle of wrongdoing and censorship that surrounds Adrian. I was the one who originally posted about this and will be happy to answer any questions regarding the issue since I was there from the beginning as a tester on Darkout.
I see someone read my Reddit thread on /r/starcitizen, which has now been deleted by moderators and thus continues the cycle of wrongdoing and censorship that surrounds Adrian. I was the one who originally posted about this and will be happy to answer any questions regarding the issue since I was there from the beginning as a tester on Darkout.
Am I going to find more of this if I take the time to dig?
Probably, there are plenty of cases of abandon-ware in the game industry. As well as cases of people leaving failing projects. Retrospectively, should the former lead developer recently the subject of a thread here get a job on Descent? He left a game all kinds of people pledged to, with all kinds of drama surrounding it.
Ah, ok. You're comparing apples and oranges. I don't know "who" is working on Descent, entirely, and I didn't know you were referring to Rob Irving, an employee, who left mid-point in the development process. A better comparison would be for Chris Roberts to leave SC, all production stop, and he turns up working on Shroud of the Avatar or some such.
Are you maybe just having fundamental problems with concepts in general, to posit examples as this? I give you some credit, like you know anything about the issue you refer, and you let me down in the process.
HE was the Lead Designer not just a random employee.hence why I used him as an example...And yes I am having a fundamental problem understanding your logic, hence the reason why i asked the question to begin with. I was essentially trying to understand when you feel it's okay to leave a project or under what circumstances it's okay to. Do you expect someone to ride a failed project off into the sunset and never work again?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think it's important that these things be discussed. I'm a big believer in the option for anonymity on the Internet, where people can say what they want without fearing consequence for the most part. AFK life is somewhat different; when you are taking people's money you shouldn't be able to just cut ties and start over with a new identity. The consequences of Adrian's actions should follow him, wherever he goes in the industry. Should he never get a job in it again? I don't know, that's not up to me. Should potential and current employers be aware of said actions and the reflection they might be of the nature of his character? Absolutely.
Am I going to find more of this if I take the time to dig?
Probably, there are plenty of cases of abandon-ware in the game industry. As well as cases of people leaving failing projects. Retrospectively, should the former lead developer recently the subject of a thread here get a job on Descent? He left a game all kinds of people pledged to, with all kinds of drama surrounding it.
Ah, ok. You're comparing apples and oranges. I don't know "who" is working on Descent, entirely, and I didn't know you were referring to Rob Irving, an employee, who left mid-point in the development process. A better comparison would be for Chris Roberts to leave SC, all production stop, and he turns up working on Shroud of the Avatar or some such.
Are you maybe just having fundamental problems with concepts in general, to posit examples as this? I give you some credit, like you know anything about the issue you refer, and you let me down in the process.
HE was the Lead Designer not just a random employee.hence why I used him as an example...And yes I am having a fundamental problem understanding your logic, hence the reason why i asked the question to begin with. I was essentially trying to understand when you feel it's okay to leave a project or under what circumstances it's okay to. Do you expect someone to ride a failed project off into the sunset and never work again?
Banninga was / is ( ? ) owner of Allgraf, ran a successful kickstarter ( got enough funds to collect from backers ), his game is still being sold on Steam, in an incomplete iteration, and the community has not heard from him in months.
I shouldn't have to explain all of this. If you care to discuss it, you should be aware of these relevant facts which have been presented you. Argue, somehow, it's not his fault the project has foundered. Argue you have personal knowledge he still works on it and plans a major comeback. Hell, argue you think Darkout is a tremendously awesome, complete game and no one else knows the issue they're discussing. Don't come here and compare him to a given employee.
He owned the project....he didn't leave it; he terminated it. Let me ask you this....do you believe in criminal background checks during employment screenings? If so, why? Is it because you'd like to know how a person's ethics or behavior might impact their activity with regards to the job?
Adrian's behavior with regards to darkout is certainly unethical, and if enough of us backers got together and pursued it, possibly considered illegal. It's like if you stole money from a cash register...should I give you a job? Maybe...but not operating point of sale. Adrian, imho should be able to work for sure. In a management position in the very industry he used a management position in to defraud hundreds of people?....I think you can see what I'm getting at
I think it's important that these things be discussed. I'm a big believer in the option for anonymity on the Internet, where people can say what they want without fearing consequence for the most part. AFK life is somewhat different; when you are taking people's money you shouldn't be able to just cut ties and start over with a new identity. The consequences of Adrian's actions should follow him, wherever he goes in the industry. Should he never get a job in it again? I don't know, that's not up to me. Should potential and current employers be aware of said actions and the reflection they might be of the nature of his character? Absolutely.
First I'll say it's sad it takes a relative new comer to understand what I was asking as well as pointing out...
Secondly I get it, you're dissatisfied with how that game turned out. Which that part is completely understandable. You tested a game, yet with all due respect...I've tested plenty, not once has that ever given me insight into the happenings behind the scenes, nor financial viability of an operation.
The big complaint I could make out in regard to that project was releasing further elements as paid DLC. Can you plainly lay out why that was? Can you say with certainty it was an act of ill-intent? There were no financial issues, nor uncontrollable circumstances that brought that about?
Now about future employment, sure if this guy can't lay out logical reasons, nor believable circumstances why all came to pass. He should be a questionable hire.. Now on the other hand if he could do that, just about any interviewer/reviewer is going to consider that, good enough reasons could make that whole episode a moot point, in terms of finding new employment.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You make a very good point. None of this really can be known for sure since Adrian never had to explain anything to his backers or answer any inquiries. He just up and left. Now he works at CIG.
A lot of people are still posting on forums asking when such and such bug will be fixed. Sadly there are people out there who think darkout is actively being worked on. It's even still being sold.
@Distopia, your position, where I originally was willing to accept as willful ignorance or questionable ethical viewpoint, is quickly becoming reductio ad absurdum. You're going to drive people batshit, in their efforts to care to respond to you.
The big complaint I could make out in regard to that project was releasing further elements as paid DLC. Can you plainly lay out why that was? Can you say with certainty it was an act of ill-intent? There were no financial issues, nor uncontrollable circumstances that brought that about?
Am I going to find more of this if I take the time to dig?
Probably, there are plenty of cases of abandon-ware in the game industry. As well as cases of people leaving failing projects. Retrospectively, should the former lead developer recently the subject of a thread here get a job on Descent? He left a game all kinds of people pledged to, with all kinds of drama surrounding it.
Ah, ok. You're comparing apples and oranges. I don't know "who" is working on Descent, entirely, and I didn't know you were referring to Rob Irving, an employee, who left mid-point in the development process. A better comparison would be for Chris Roberts to leave SC, all production stop, and he turns up working on Shroud of the Avatar or some such.
Are you maybe just having fundamental problems with concepts in general, to posit examples as this? I give you some credit, like you know anything about the issue you refer, and you let me down in the process.
HE was the Lead Designer not just a random employee.hence why I used him as an example...And yes I am having a fundamental problem understanding your logic, hence the reason why i asked the question to begin with. I was essentially trying to understand when you feel it's okay to leave a project or under what circumstances it's okay to. Do you expect someone to ride a failed project off into the sunset and never work again?
There's another way to look at this. This individual, the lead designer and guy in charge of the project, takes money from people and promises certain milestones for the money. He then fails to meet most of those milestones and people ask him what's going on, where's our game, what are you doing with our money and he responds to those requests with forum bans, reclassifying reviews on steam and blocking people on Skype.
He then pops up working for another company who is completely funded almost entirely by citizen backers.
The proper thing to do as your game is failing and people are asking what happened to all of the promises is to start divulging your financial records. Here's how I spent this money, here's how I spent that money, and we ran out before we could finish it. "I'm sorry, but unless I receive more funds in order to buy such and such software tool in order to finish aspect "x" of the game, then I'm not going to be able to continue." People understand when there are roadblocks. That's part of any project. What people don't understand, is when they ask questions and are suddenly persona non grata.
My reaction, and many others when this type of thing happens, is that the money was spent on strippers and booze. Maybe it wasn't, maybe he spent every penny on development, but IP blocks and shunting bad reviews on steam aren't the signs of an honest man, they're the signs of a desperate man watching his stripper and booze money dry up as people start to ask questions.
So Darkout launched in Dec 2013 - to mixed reviews; some happy, some not. And some complaining about the project not delivering all that the KS project "promised". Whether it delivered "all that was promised" but not "all that was hoped" is another matter. The hope to deliver as DLC was obviously floated at some point.
So the guy's "experience": been involved in new company start up, should understand the culture and demands (a plus); making a game from scratch - whole life cycle experience (a plus); involving planetary exploration, space ships, planets (a plus); that sees to have decent artwork (a plus); has been involved in a Kickstarter (a plus); been the target of funders ire and so will also probably have "what I would have done differently" experience (a plus). (No record of him being a criminal either.)
Yep I think he was interviewed - and (obviously) hired.
Comments
"no one who has ever worked on or left a failed project, should work in the industry again."
When we are talking about the lead guy who was in charge, who did not plan well and left many people feeling ripped off?
For someone with a signature spouting logic and reason you sure do not seem to use much of it. All you do is take the specifics people are discussing and generalize the piss out of them. Here is another example from you:
"I can't look at every single instance of a failed project as a scam, or act of ill intent. "
No one is saying "every single instance" is a scam and I sure as heck did not, but you have no logic or real reason not to have concerns about this guy so you have to use generalizations to give your argument some credibility.
This guy was lead on a project, he made claims he would give one thing and then gave another (content over DLC) and now people who purchased from him feel ripped off. I guess in your world that makes him perfectly qualified to work at CIG. Personally, if I was a fan of CIG I would not want this guy in charge of anything. Now before you go twisting my words and making broad generalizations, notice I said "in charge" of anything. I would hire him to make art but I sure would not want him working as the Senior Art Manager.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
But then again, every single one of us has a Single Scope Background Investigation and we all hold security clearances.
And yes, if a company hires someone, then they should perform minimal checks and make sure they didn't do things like, ohhhh, I don't know, defraud people with a scam kickstarter before offering them employment. There's little reason this guy should be working in the industry again at all, much less on another project where backer funds have been used to fund the project.
No I didn't say he was qualified, my point was we're expected to make a character assessment based on a failed project. without really knowing the specifics of what went down. Outside of peoples complaints of the project, which in my experience aren't always representative of the actual real circumstances going on behind the scenes. People see he wants more money for more content, and automatically assume or declare..scam...That's people being people, it's nothing but knee-jerk reaction. Which has nothing to do with logic or reason.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What do I need to link? Lead dev leaves star Citizen, gets job as Creative lead on Descent. Is that much different than this?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Are you maybe just having fundamental problems with concepts in general, to posit examples as this? I give you some credit, like you know anything about the issue you refer, and you let me down in the process.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I shouldn't have to explain all of this. If you care to discuss it, you should be aware of these relevant facts which have been presented you. Argue, somehow, it's not his fault the project has foundered. Argue you have personal knowledge he still works on it and plans a major comeback. Hell, argue you think Darkout is a tremendously awesome, complete game and no one else knows the issue they're discussing. Don't come here and compare him to a given employee.
Adrian's behavior with regards to darkout is certainly unethical, and if enough of us backers got together and pursued it, possibly considered illegal. It's like if you stole money from a cash register...should I give you a job? Maybe...but not operating point of sale. Adrian, imho should be able to work for sure. In a management position in the very industry he used a management position in to defraud hundreds of people?....I think you can see what I'm getting at
Secondly I get it, you're dissatisfied with how that game turned out. Which that part is completely understandable. You tested a game, yet with all due respect...I've tested plenty, not once has that ever given me insight into the happenings behind the scenes, nor financial viability of an operation.
The big complaint I could make out in regard to that project was releasing further elements as paid DLC. Can you plainly lay out why that was? Can you say with certainty it was an act of ill-intent? There were no financial issues, nor uncontrollable circumstances that brought that about?
Now about future employment, sure if this guy can't lay out logical reasons, nor believable circumstances why all came to pass. He should be a questionable hire.. Now on the other hand if he could do that, just about any interviewer/reviewer is going to consider that, good enough reasons could make that whole episode a moot point, in terms of finding new employment.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
That is not the "big complaint".
He then pops up working for another company who is completely funded almost entirely by citizen backers.
The proper thing to do as your game is failing and people are asking what happened to all of the promises is to start divulging your financial records. Here's how I spent this money, here's how I spent that money, and we ran out before we could finish it. "I'm sorry, but unless I receive more funds in order to buy such and such software tool in order to finish aspect "x" of the game, then I'm not going to be able to continue." People understand when there are roadblocks. That's part of any project. What people don't understand, is when they ask questions and are suddenly persona non grata.
My reaction, and many others when this type of thing happens, is that the money was spent on strippers and booze. Maybe it wasn't, maybe he spent every penny on development, but IP blocks and shunting bad reviews on steam aren't the signs of an honest man, they're the signs of a desperate man watching his stripper and booze money dry up as people start to ask questions.
So the guy's "experience": been involved in new company start up, should understand the culture and demands (a plus); making a game from scratch - whole life cycle experience (a plus); involving planetary exploration, space ships, planets (a plus); that sees to have decent artwork (a plus); has been involved in a Kickstarter (a plus); been the target of funders ire and so will also probably have "what I would have done differently" experience (a plus). (No record of him being a criminal either.)
Yep I think he was interviewed - and (obviously) hired.