@Distopia, your position, where I originally was willing to accept as willful ignorance or questionable ethical viewpoint, is quickly becoming reductio ad absurdum. You're going to drive people batshit, in their efforts to care to respond to you.
The big complaint I could make out in regard to that project was releasing further elements as paid DLC. Can you plainly lay out why that was? Can you say with certainty it was an act of ill-intent? There were no financial issues, nor uncontrollable circumstances that brought that about?
That is not the "big complaint".
That's what just about every negative comment highlighted that I read, I'm just now reading on this project at all for pete's sake, (never heard about it before your thread). I'm simply trying to gather information on what went down there.
How that makes you feel I really couldn't care less..If you bring such a topic here, most aren't going to know anything about, and expect all to fall in line with your narrative, you have to expect at least someone to question it... sorry that has to be me (but hey the source alone is questionable to me outright)...I'm simply questioning how shady the project was, as well as what went down with it. Not to mention what went on with the guy who ran it.
Asking whether it was really a case of wrong doing or whether it was out of the guy's control is in what way an outlandish thing to ask? That's what makes all the difference in how I should feel.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Brenics I assume the answer is Adrian, since he's fired everyone else at Allgraff.
Now that part I can certainly agree is quite absurd, if an early access game is still being sold even after development has been suspended/abandoned. It's nothing but unethical.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
H0urg1ass, you seem to have a pretty good handle on exactly the way things went down. I assume from your previous post about your company that perhaps your day job requires you to be good at "connecting the dots"; I have several friends I grew up with who became "analysts" for various companies and we both know what that means
at at any rate that's it in a nutshell; it's not about failing, it's how the failure was handled.
DMKano please read the entire thread and not just the topic title. your point has already been successfully refuted if you take the time to read it. You are over generalizing.
There's another way to look at this. This individual, the lead designer and guy in charge of the project, takes money from people and promises certain milestones for the money. He then fails to meet most of those milestones and people ask him what's going on, where's our game, what are you doing with our money and he responds to those requests with forum bans, reclassifying reviews on steam and blocking people on Skype.
He then pops up working for another company who is completely funded almost entirely by citizen backers.
The proper thing to do as your game is failing and people are asking what happened to all of the promises is to start divulging your financial records. Here's how I spent this money, here's how I spent that money, and we ran out before we could finish it. "I'm sorry, but unless I receive more funds in order to buy such and such software tool in order to finish aspect "x" of the game, then I'm not going to be able to continue." People understand when there are roadblocks. That's part of any project. What people don't understand, is when they ask questions and are suddenly persona non grata.
My reaction, and many others when this type of thing happens, is that the money was spent on strippers and booze. Maybe it wasn't, maybe he spent every penny on development, but IP blocks and shunting bad reviews on steam aren't the signs of an honest man, they're the signs of a desperate man watching his stripper and booze money dry up as people start to ask questions.
I don't disagree on that being the proper thing to do. Yet I also don't know what circumstances would lead him to make those decisions. For all I know he could have left in shame or in complete embarrassment, or had problems dealing with extremely angry, aggressive people. It's not like everyone is built for such a thing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have no vested interest in star citizen one way or the other. It looks kinda cool and I liked Wing Commander as a kid. I just figured people might be interested to know that this guy Adrian is bad news, and I can't personally stomach contributing to a project that he will reap any of the reward from after he swindled me and many others. I love space flight sims as much as any of you; especially since IMHO VR is going to resurrect the genre.
Distopia: While shame is a valid consequence of theft, it is a poor excuse for it. I honestly don't care if the guy was embarrassed; he stole my money and many other people's.
DMKano please read the entire thread and not just the topic title. your point has already been successfully refuted if you take the time to read it. You are over generalizing.
IS that so? I'd say the strongest case was made by Mr.Zeb
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have no vested interest in star citizen one way or the other. It looks kinda cool and I liked Wing Commander as a kid. I just figured people might be interested to know that this guy Adrian is bad news, and I can't personally stomach contributing to a project that he will reap any of the reward from after he swindled me and many others. I love space flight sims as much as any of you; especially since IMHO VR is going to resurrect the genre.
SC is actually not being built around VR, contrary to promises early 2015. It's a complete afterthought, and those with understanding of the VR technology will attest, this amounts to a particularly sub-par VR experience. That, however, is for another topic in the future, I guess. Most likely it will most come to light when 90% of people who try to use Oculus Rift in Squadron 42 this time next year when, if they don't puke their guts out on 3rd perspective of cinematics, they just take the hat off as "useless".
Distopia: While shame is a valid consequence of theft, it is a poor excuse for it. I honestly don't care if the guy was embarrassed; he stole my money and many other people's.
He released a game. A game certainly of questionable quality according to reviews but a game none the less. Theft and fraud would have been if he promised a game and never delivered a single line of code.
Bargaining.
It's claimed he's still working on it on the Steam page. He's still receiving revenue from it.
edit: It's still an available product for unaware customers. He hasn't even informed Steam to take it down.
Distopia: While shame is a valid consequence of theft, it is a poor excuse for it. I honestly don't care if the guy was embarrassed; he stole my money and many other people's.
He released a game. A game certainly of questionable quality according to reviews but a game none the less. Theft and fraud would have been if he promised a game and never delivered a single line of code.
Bargaining.
It's claimed he's still working on it on the Steam page. He's still receiving revenue from it.
edit: It's still an available product for unaware customers. He hasn't even informed Steam to take it down.
Steam doesn't tend to shy away from removing games on their own, they've removed plenty in such a way. In other words...It seems to be considered a released crappy game. Especially if it's been there three years. In other, other words a highlight of the crapshow Steam Greenlight can be.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Distopia: While shame is a valid consequence of theft, it is a poor excuse for it. I honestly don't care if the guy was embarrassed; he stole my money and many other people's.
He released a game. A game certainly of questionable quality according to reviews but a game none the less. Theft and fraud would have been if he promised a game and never delivered a single line of code.
Bargaining.
It's claimed he's still working on it on the Steam page. He's still receiving revenue from it.
edit: It's still an available product for unaware customers. He hasn't even informed Steam to take it down.
So people who should know better by now are supporting a shitty game? Whose fault is that?
I ask myself that often. Honestly, it comes down to the person/people who have perpetuated, and continue to perpetuate, the environment in which the unaware are fleeced.
Steam takes partial responsibility because Steam negotiates the refunds. I take partial responsibility because I have the awareness of what is going on and feel it necessary to draw attention to the facts. You know it's a problem and argue against alarm. Adrian knows it's a problem, skipped town and went to work for CIG at Foundry 42.
So people who should know better by now are supporting a shitty game? Whose fault is that?
I ask myself that often. Honestly, it comes down to the person/people who have perpetuated, and continue to perpetuate, the environment in which the unaware are fleeced.
Steam takes partial responsibility because Steam negotiates the refunds. I take partial responsibility because I have the awareness of what is going on and feel it necessary to draw attention to the facts. You know it's a problem and argue against alarm. Adrian knows it's a problem, skipped town and went to work for CIG at Foundry 42.
Do you have a proposal on how to stop crappy products from being made, regardless of sources of funding?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Do you have a proposal on how to stop crappy products from being made, regardless of sources of funding?
"Do you have a proposal on how to stop crowdfunded products from being abandoned?"
Ftfy. No, but it's a hell of a start by holding people responsible and taking them to task.
You really should be on my side of this. Your "third side" is pretty cruddy.
To answer your question, nope, we'll never stop that from happening, the best we can hope for are lawsuits or charges where they may apply.
As it stands crowdfunded products, are essentially held to the standard of any other game's release. "Could be good.. could be crappy, as long as it sells... I'll sell it", seems to be steam's stance...
The only side I am on, is the one where I get something worth my dollar as far as games are concerned. If I worried about the habits or ethics of every employee of every company I bought something from, I can't imagine I'd have very much stuff in my possession.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
He is considered by many to have "screwed over Kickstarter backers".
Pray tell ... how has he screwed over "Kickstarter" backers when there is NO Kickstarter campaign for a "Darkout" video game or ANY project started by "Allgraf" or "Adrian Banninga" ?
He is considered by many to have "screwed over Kickstarter backers".
Pray tell ... how has he screwed over "Kickstarter" backers when there is NO Kickstarter campaign for a "Darkout" video game or ANY project started by "Allgraf" or "Adrian Banninga" ?
He is considered by many to have "screwed over Kickstarter backers".
Pray tell ... how has he screwed over "Kickstarter" backers when there is NO Kickstarter campaign for a "Darkout" video game or ANY project started by "Allgraf" or "Adrian Banninga" ?
A few months of normal work anywhere and he can pay back all those 326 people. And it sounds to me personally like that is exactly what he is doing now ... getting some normal work.
Are you belittling 5 people screwed over, let alone hundreds?
Is he paying people back, now? No one knew about that yesterday. This must be a decision he made in the last couple hours? If what you say is true, then apparently I've contributed to helping 326 people.
How many do you help by promoting Star Citizen? The total number of execs at CIG?
edit: Also, what's the income / number of customers from Steam sales?
Are you belittling 5 people screwed over, let alone hundreds?
Is he paying people back, now? No one knew about that yesterday. This must be a decision he made in the last couple hours? If what you say is true, then apparently I've contributed to helping 326 people.
How many do you help by promoting Star Citizen? The total number of execs at CIG?
edit: Also, what's the income / number of customers from Steam sales?
Why should he pay anyone back? Because you say so? Apparently Indiegogo and Steam are fine with his product. Just because you may feel otherwise doesn't give you the power of judge jury and executioner.
Are you reading the thread? Erillion said he could pay them back.
Again ... thats maybe ... another 5000 $ tops over the last years ?
It costs 11,99 $ on Steam usually, was 50 % off, 496 * 6$ = 2976 $. Plus 5347 $ from Indiegogo. Makes 8323 $.
Which IMHO he COULD pay back after a few months of working in a normal job.
Again ... is THAT enough for you to paint him as an untouchable pariah in the gaming industry ? After he DID try to deliver a game ? But a few thousand bucks were not enough to finish it - which does not surprise me personally.
Comments
How that makes you feel I really couldn't care less..If you bring such a topic here, most aren't going to know anything about, and expect all to fall in line with your narrative, you have to expect at least someone to question it... sorry that has to be me (but hey the source alone is questionable to me outright)...I'm simply questioning how shady the project was, as well as what went down with it. Not to mention what went on with the guy who ran it.
Asking whether it was really a case of wrong doing or whether it was out of the guy's control is in what way an outlandish thing to ask? That's what makes all the difference in how I should feel.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Now that part I can certainly agree is quite absurd, if an early access game is still being sold even after development has been suspended/abandoned. It's nothing but unethical.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"We are currently busy porting the existing game over to Unity 5 which enable us to add everything we have envisioned for Darkout. "
http://store.steampowered.com/app/257050
Steam still thinks this is a relevant title with supporting devs. Customers still think this is an active project with supporting devs.
edit: Look at the customer reviews on that page.
at at any rate that's it in a nutshell; it's not about failing, it's how the failure was handled.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Edit: I forgot to point out; what was that about DLC not being the big complaint? :proud: just saying...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
New players can get a welcome package and old/returning players can also get a welcome back package and 7 days free subscription time! Just click here to use my referral invitation
I have no vested interest in star citizen one way or the other. It looks kinda cool and I liked Wing Commander as a kid. I just figured people might be interested to know that this guy Adrian is bad news, and I can't personally stomach contributing to a project that he will reap any of the reward from after he swindled me and many others. I love space flight sims as much as any of you; especially since IMHO VR is going to resurrect the genre.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
We can cross that bridge when we come to it.
It's claimed he's still working on it on the Steam page. He's still receiving revenue from it.
edit: It's still an available product for unaware customers. He hasn't even informed Steam to take it down.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Steam takes partial responsibility because Steam negotiates the refunds. I take partial responsibility because I have the awareness of what is going on and feel it necessary to draw attention to the facts. You know it's a problem and argue against alarm. Adrian knows it's a problem, skipped town and went to work for CIG at Foundry 42.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Ftfy. No, but it's a hell of a start by holding people responsible and taking them to task.
You really should be on my side of this. Your "third side" is pretty cruddy.
As it stands crowdfunded products, are essentially held to the standard of any other game's release. "Could be good.. could be crappy, as long as it sells... I'll sell it", seems to be steam's stance...
The only side I am on, is the one where I get something worth my dollar as far as games are concerned. If I worried about the habits or ethics of every employee of every company I bought something from, I can't imagine I'd have very much stuff in my possession.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Have fun
http://www.gamespot.com/videos/darkout-indiegogo-campaign-trailer/2300-6397483/
Good catch.
edit: Hmm, that link isn't working well. How about this one.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/darkout-a-survival-sandbox-with-hd-graphics-and-strategy-and-rpg-elements#/
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/darkout-a-survival-sandbox-with-hd-graphics-and-strategy-and-rpg-elements#/
Really ?!
REALLY ?!
That is why he is now some "Untouchable Pariah" ?
$5,347 ?
A few months of normal work anywhere and he can pay back all those 326 people. And it sounds to me personally like that is exactly what he is doing now ... getting some normal work.
Have fun
Is he paying people back, now? No one knew about that yesterday. This must be a decision he made in the last couple hours? If what you say is true, then apparently I've contributed to helping 326 people.
How many do you help by promoting Star Citizen? The total number of execs at CIG?
edit: Also, what's the income / number of customers from Steam sales?
http://steamcharts.com/app/257050
Again ... thats maybe ... another 5000 $ tops over the last years ?
It costs 11,99 $ on Steam usually, was 50 % off, 496 * 6$ = 2976 $. Plus 5347 $ from Indiegogo. Makes 8323 $.
Which IMHO he COULD pay back after a few months of working in a normal job.
Again ... is THAT enough for you to paint him as an untouchable pariah in the gaming industry ? After he DID try to deliver a game ? But a few thousand bucks were not enough to finish it - which does not surprise me personally.
Have fun