Well according to the link you send it is clearly in violation of the kickstarter goals system..
Every stretch goal after 6 million had nothing to do with Kickstarter. Thats about 80 %ish of the Stretch Goals.
Have fun
I don't think this is a particularly strong argument seeing as, based only on what has been presented thus far, I have doubts they'll even get to what they have listed on Kickstarter for that 6 million combined. Tablet app for features that may or may not be present and expensive full orchestral music for both games stand out.
We'll see though.
We must rediscover the distinction between hope and expectation. ~ Ivan Illich
According to how it was written in their stretch goal timeline, up to 6 mil was combined KS and their site. Leads me to think concurrent rather than consecutive as far as goals until then.
According to how it was written in their stretch goal timeline, up to 6 mil was combined KS and their site. Leads me to think concurrent rather than consecutive as far as goals until then.
Could be wrong though. Happened before.
Yeah Ks is so new an untested the legalese is rather confusing and seems to have lots of grey areas.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
the game will never come out with more than 30% of the features promised (if that) that people have backed, that's the sad reality. I wouldn't be surprised if they delayed the PU indefinitely and focused all their efforts into the star citizen movie (game).
Of that list, only 21 out of 87 have been completed. That's 24% complete, and those completed stretch goals include things like: -2 goals that promise more communication during development -2 goals that are about offices for RSI (Austin + mocap studio) -3 goals that are bonus items for backers (space suit, 10 000 UEC and War Bonds) -1 goal that is about giving everyone with a package alpha + beta access.
Only 13 of the completed goals are something that can even be called a feature of the game.
I'm not necessarily arguing that we don't have 30%ish features promised, one will just have to use creativity in defining what are the features promised and one can reach almost any % of features completed. However I think we shouldn't argue that 30%ish of features are completed based on that list of stretch goals, because out of those stretch goals that are features of the finished game way less than 30% are completed.
I rewatched the vid this morning, and noticed he's making a big deal about Warcraft adding feature's post release, and to be honest I'm, wracking my brain to think what features were added post release.
Unless he means expansions, but these aren't so much features as full releases in and about themselves. Which Blizzard made to keep the game from becoming stale.
I think I'm now hugely disappointed in SC, it's X years past the predicted release date (which is even disputed how far behind it it), and the longer they take the more it will disappoint.
Personally I think they should just put their heads down and go silent except for a quick monthly update saying they were still working on the game and just get it out now, it's gotten to the point where I ended up buying Elite Dangerous for something to play and I'm really enjoying it.
“Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” ― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
I suppose there were patches added post 1.0, ie BWL, ZG, AQ, Naxx and so on but none of these were promised when the game was initially advertised. Customers had no awareness or expectations about the patches, money wasn't taken on the back of certain patches being added to the game. Sounds to me like Roberts is struggling to find a good comparison.
I rewatched the vid this morning, and noticed he's making a big deal about Warcraft adding feature's post release, and to be honest I'm, wracking my brain to think what features were added post release.
Unless he means expansions, but these aren't so much features as full releases in and about themselves. Which Blizzard made to keep the game from becoming stale.
I think I'm now hugely disappointed in SC, it's X years past the predicted release date (which is even disputed how far behind it it), and the longer they take the more it will disappoint.
Personally I think they should just put their heads down and go silent except for a quick monthly update saying they were still working on the game and just get it out now, it's gotten to the point where I ended up buying Elite Dangerous for something to play and I'm really enjoying it.
PvP Battlegrounds Dungeon Finder LFR Heirlooms Darkmoon Faire etc. etc.
You're not disappointed - you're just reaffirming your own ignorance about the project.
You want it to fail - and you're looking as hard as you can for signs of potential failure - to a ridiculous extent.
Now, what we've all known for a very long time has been said in a new way using new words and it's suddenly news and it's "tragic news".
The game was never - ever - going to launch with all talked about features. It has been repeated endlessly in interviews.
Now, Chris is calling it "minimum viable product" - and it's suddenly something entirely different. I guess it might be if you completely ignore the context and what else he's saying during that 10FTC.
None of that was talked about prior to release DK - all of those came a lot later, some in later expansion packs, not even vanilla.
Bad examples.
What?
We're talking about features added post-release.
It's pretty clear that plenty of features have been added that aren't part of expansions.
There's a pretty huge difference between Star Citizen and World of Warcraft. You know what it is? Star Citizen is crowd funded - which means it's OPEN development. That's why features are talked about OPENLY right now.
Even with that said, Blizzard talked about a ton of features even before release. For instance, the expanded PvP system was long awaited.
People seem to think that open development means that everything developers talk about and hope for means a set in stone promise for release.
The difference between this and Fable is that it is intended as an online continually updated and developed game, rather than a fixed amount of functionality and content that will go onto a disc. So all the features may not make it for day 1 but we will bringing on as much and as many as we can over the life of the universe.
There will be some features that will not make it as I'm sure some of my ideas wont work out once we start testing them with real users, and there will be some I haven't talked about will be in the game that everyone will wonder how we could have ever conceived not having.
Part of the reason of doing this with community involvement from the start is to make sure the people that will be affected by some early choices have a voice int he process. Perhaps its feature A or feature B at launch. Backers will get a say in which feature is more important to them. Its not a perfect process but I think it will be the bets one for the long run - and as a lot of people have noted just a sub set of some the proposed functionality will be pretty awesome and I'm not going to stop until we get it all (that makes sense from a fun / payable / balancing standpoint)
Here's the earliest example I could find of Chris Roberts OPENLY stating the exact same thing.
That's from 2012 - just after the Kickstarter ended.
If there is such a huge difference between WoW and SC then why on earth is Roberts using it as his comparison?
Looking at things from a more balanced PoV. You're an avid fan, fanatical even, saying that this stuff has been talked about only applies fairly to people who spend a large amount of time following their favourite project. Your more balanced backer might read a newsletter or watch the occasional video, they're not hanging on CIG's word so it would be exceptionally easy for them to miss these rare spoken disclaimers.
Too much emphasis has been placed on what CIG wants to add to the game in their quest for funding rather than what they can objectively achieve for their initial release, that's on them, it's not on people not being fanatical enough about the game.
Well according to the link you send it is clearly in violation of the kickstarter goals system..
Every stretch goal after 6 million had nothing to do with Kickstarter. Thats about 80 %ish of the Stretch Goals.
Have fun
While I am not a KS expert isn't the 6mil your talking about a combined KS funds AND funds raised via their own website?
Via KS they raised $2,134,374, the rest of that 6mil wasn't from KS.
It begs the question do they need to release stretch goals up to the 6mil mark or only the 2.1mil mark to keep in line with KS?
Which leads on to how much weight does the KS rules & regulations (which are only just starting to catching up and was really bad years before) hold over the project? My guess it means very little in the project as a whole.
Sure it will always be what got the project off the ground... but it has grown so much since KS, being KS is only about 2% of the funds raised.
KS is for people who get hyped over words on a screen... i got hyped after a free flight weekend. Lets hope all are happy at the end.
How I see it, tons of people complaining the game isn't out yet. They seem to be trying to find a way to "get it out". If they come out with a stable build with enough features to qualify as commercial release, so be it. Then continue to work on it as it goes.
None of that was talked about prior to release DK - all of those came a lot later, some in later expansion packs, not even vanilla.
Bad examples.
What?
We're talking about features added post-release.
It's pretty clear that plenty of features have been added that aren't part of expansions.
There's a pretty huge difference between Star Citizen and World of Warcraft. You know what it is? Star Citizen is crowd funded - which means it's OPEN development. That's why features are talked about OPENLY right now.
Even with that said, Blizzard talked about a ton of features even before release. For instance, the expanded PvP system was long awaited.
People seem to think that open development means that everything developers talk about and hope for means a set in stone promise for release.
It does not.
Your talking about features, but you quoted things that aren't actually features in WoW, heirlooms after all, are just something you can buy for gold in the game, and they are fairly 'recent' additions at that, Darkmoon faire, is an 'event' not a feature, much like the easter and halloween events, the only one that could reasonably be called a 'feature' is probably the PVP battlegrounds, although if the implication here is that SC won't have any PVP in the game for a few years, that might not be the message your trying to achieve, LFR etc. well i guess people won't be too disappointed if they have to wait 10 years before its added to SQ42 either. So before trying to make comparisons, perhaps it would be best not to, just to be on the safe side, as the comparisons might not be the ones you intended.
Its inevitable that MVP would cast numerous, or increased doubts on the whole SC project, it after all, doesn't just imply that the game will be released partially finished, it categorically states that will be the case, which is why i suspect that most MMO developers would normally shy away from even being remotely associated with that kind of terminology, its not after all, a positive statement, but one you would normally expect to be associated with damage control, because now they are going to have to go into detail on what will be missing on release.
None of that was talked about prior to release DK - all of those came a lot later, some in later expansion packs, not even vanilla.
Bad examples.
What?
We're talking about features added post-release.
It's pretty clear that plenty of features have been added that aren't part of expansions.
There's a pretty huge difference between Star Citizen and World of Warcraft. You know what it is? Star Citizen is crowd funded - which means it's OPEN development. That's why features are talked about OPENLY right now.
Even with that said, Blizzard talked about a ton of features even before release. For instance, the expanded PvP system was long awaited.
People seem to think that open development means that everything developers talk about and hope for means a set in stone promise for release.
It does not.
Your talking about features, but you quoted things that aren't actually features in WoW, heirlooms after all, are just something you can buy for gold in the game, and they are fairly 'recent' additions at that, Darkmoon faire, is an 'event' not a feature, much like the easter and halloween events, the only one that could reasonably be called a 'feature' is probably the PVP battlegrounds, although if the implication here is that SC won't have any PVP in the game for a few years, that might not be the message your trying to achieve, LFR etc. well i guess people won't be too disappointed if they have to wait 10 years before its added to SQ42 either. So before trying to make comparisons, perhaps it would be best not to, just to be on the safe side, as the comparisons might not be the ones you intended.
Its inevitable that MVP would cast numerous, or increased doubts on the whole SC project, it after all, doesn't just imply that the game will be released partially finished, it categorically states that will be the case, which is why i suspect that most MMO developers would normally shy away from even being remotely associated with that kind of terminology, its not after all, a positive statement, but one you would normally expect to be associated with damage control, because now they are going to have to go into detail on what will be missing on release.
Are you joking here?
Anyway, I'll try to ignore your attempt at pretending a feature isn't a feature because it's also an event.
So, you admit that PvP battlegrounds was added as a feature. Meaning, I'm right - features have been added that aren't part of the expansion.
As for the rest of your post, I'm trying hard to make sense of it. It sounds like some kind of crazy conjecture based on some strange fantasy scenario where your doubts become the doubts of all others, including MMO developers.
I'm afraid you have to try harder to make an impression with that kind of nonsense.
Someone claimed no features have been added to WoW that weren't part of an expansion - and I pointed out that was factually wrong. You agree with me.
I know we are talking about apples here but I'm going mount a strong argument that bananas are in fact yellow. How could you think they they were not yellow?!
I know we are talking about apples here but I'm going mount a strong argument that bananas are in fact yellow. How could you think they they were not yellow?!
I know we are talking about apples here but I'm going mount a strong argument that bananas are in fact yellow. How could you think they they were not yellow?!
I know we are talking about apples here but I'm going mount a strong argument that bananas are in fact yellow. How could you think they they were not yellow?!
I found the phrase "commercial release" interesting, a further suggstion that they are now looking beyond Kickstarter (after "splitting" the product).
How many of the Kickstarter targets are met or not by such a release are somewhat irrelevant. Somewhat since you would expect the initial targets to be the basis of the core game.
So the key will be whether "non-backers" buy it or not. And all the other stuff that goes with a release: reviews, the business model, server stability, bugs, security and so forth.
I found the phrase "commercial release" interesting, a further suggstion that they are now looking beyond Kickstarter (after "splitting" the product).
How many of the Kickstarter targets are met or not by such a release are somewhat irrelevant. Somewhat since you would expect the initial targets to be the basis of the core game.
So the key will be whether "non-backers" buy it or not. And all the other stuff that goes with a release: reviews, the business model, server stability, bugs, security and so forth.
Ehm, what?
Commercial release means release at which time the game will be available commercially - like all other games that aren't free to play.
Comments
We'll see though.
We must rediscover the distinction between hope and expectation. ~ Ivan Illich
Via KS they raised $2,134,374, the rest of that 6mil wasn't from KS.
It begs the question do they need to release stretch goals up to the 6mil mark or only the 2.1mil mark to keep in line with KS?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Could be wrong though. Happened before.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Of that list, only 21 out of 87 have been completed. That's 24% complete, and those completed stretch goals include things like:
-2 goals that promise more communication during development
-2 goals that are about offices for RSI (Austin + mocap studio)
-3 goals that are bonus items for backers (space suit, 10 000 UEC and War Bonds)
-1 goal that is about giving everyone with a package alpha + beta access.
Only 13 of the completed goals are something that can even be called a feature of the game.
I'm not necessarily arguing that we don't have 30%ish features promised, one will just have to use creativity in defining what are the features promised and one can reach almost any % of features completed. However I think we shouldn't argue that 30%ish of features are completed based on that list of stretch goals, because out of those stretch goals that are features of the finished game way less than 30% are completed.
Unless he means expansions, but these aren't so much features as full releases in and about themselves. Which Blizzard made to keep the game from becoming stale.
I think I'm now hugely disappointed in SC, it's X years past the predicted release date (which is even disputed how far behind it it), and the longer they take the more it will disappoint.
Personally I think they should just put their heads down and go silent except for a quick monthly update saying they were still working on the game and just get it out now, it's gotten to the point where I ended up buying Elite Dangerous for something to play and I'm really enjoying it.
― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
Sounds to me like Roberts is struggling to find a good comparison.
Dungeon Finder
LFR
Heirlooms
Darkmoon Faire
etc.
etc.
You're not disappointed - you're just reaffirming your own ignorance about the project.
You want it to fail - and you're looking as hard as you can for signs of potential failure - to a ridiculous extent.
Now, what we've all known for a very long time has been said in a new way using new words and it's suddenly news and it's "tragic news".
The game was never - ever - going to launch with all talked about features. It has been repeated endlessly in interviews.
Now, Chris is calling it "minimum viable product" - and it's suddenly something entirely different. I guess it might be if you completely ignore the context and what else he's saying during that 10FTC.
Bad examples.
We're talking about features added post-release.
It's pretty clear that plenty of features have been added that aren't part of expansions.
There's a pretty huge difference between Star Citizen and World of Warcraft. You know what it is? Star Citizen is crowd funded - which means it's OPEN development. That's why features are talked about OPENLY right now.
Even with that said, Blizzard talked about a ton of features even before release. For instance, the expanded PvP system was long awaited.
People seem to think that open development means that everything developers talk about and hope for means a set in stone promise for release.
It does not.
The difference between this and Fable is that it is intended as an online continually updated and developed game, rather than a fixed amount of functionality and content that will go onto a disc. So all the features may not make it for day 1 but we will bringing on as much and as many as we can over the life of the universe.
There will be some features that will not make it as I'm sure some of my ideas wont work out once we start testing them with real users, and there will be some I haven't talked about will be in the game that everyone will wonder how we could have ever conceived not having.
Part of the reason of doing this with community involvement from the start is to make sure the people that will be affected by some early choices have a voice int he process. Perhaps its feature A or feature B at launch. Backers will get a say in which feature is more important to them. Its not a perfect process but I think it will be the bets one for the long run - and as a lot of people have noted just a sub set of some the proposed functionality will be pretty awesome and I'm not going to stop until we get it all (that makes sense from a fun / payable / balancing standpoint)
Here's the earliest example I could find of Chris Roberts OPENLY stating the exact same thing.
That's from 2012 - just after the Kickstarter ended.
So, next bullshit claim please.
Looking at things from a more balanced PoV. You're an avid fan, fanatical even, saying that this stuff has been talked about only applies fairly to people who spend a large amount of time following their favourite project.
Your more balanced backer might read a newsletter or watch the occasional video, they're not hanging on CIG's word so it would be exceptionally easy for them to miss these rare spoken disclaimers.
Too much emphasis has been placed on what CIG wants to add to the game in their quest for funding rather than what they can objectively achieve for their initial release, that's on them, it's not on people not being fanatical enough about the game.
Sure it will always be what got the project off the ground... but it has grown so much since KS, being KS is only about 2% of the funds raised.
KS is for people who get hyped over words on a screen... i got hyped after a free flight weekend. Lets hope all are happy at the end.
Let the jpegs fly.
So before trying to make comparisons, perhaps it would be best not to, just to be on the safe side, as the comparisons might not be the ones you intended.
Its inevitable that MVP would cast numerous, or increased doubts on the whole SC project, it after all, doesn't just imply that the game will be released partially finished, it categorically states that will be the case, which is why i suspect that most MMO developers would normally shy away from even being remotely associated with that kind of terminology, its not after all, a positive statement, but one you would normally expect to be associated with damage control, because now they are going to have to go into detail on what will be missing on release.
It might be something or nothing but he's created a crap storm.
Anyway, I'll try to ignore your attempt at pretending a feature isn't a feature because it's also an event.
So, you admit that PvP battlegrounds was added as a feature. Meaning, I'm right - features have been added that aren't part of the expansion.
As for the rest of your post, I'm trying hard to make sense of it. It sounds like some kind of crazy conjecture based on some strange fantasy scenario where your doubts become the doubts of all others, including MMO developers.
I'm afraid you have to try harder to make an impression with that kind of nonsense.
Someone claimed no features have been added to WoW that weren't part of an expansion - and I pointed out that was factually wrong. You agree with me.
So, there.
That's all it is.
i win.
http://chikooz.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/greenbananas1.jpg
Have fun
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Musa_velutina2.jpg
How many of the Kickstarter targets are met or not by such a release are somewhat irrelevant. Somewhat since you would expect the initial targets to be the basis of the core game.
So the key will be whether "non-backers" buy it or not. And all the other stuff that goes with a release: reviews, the business model, server stability, bugs, security and so forth.
Commercial release means release at which time the game will be available commercially - like all other games that aren't free to play.
It's not rocket science.