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This Old-Time D&D player NOT interested!
Tilden
Member Posts: 94
No exp for killing monsters.
"As such, the game is highly instanced and virtually devoid of empty pointless countryside and bunny bashing. This choice ties into the advancement system that does not reward killing monsters, but rather the completion of quests. It really does not matter how you complete a quest; simply that you do."
I like the idea of the quest mattering, but no exp for killing monsters? BLASPHEMY!
That quote was taken from:
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/111/gameID/163/from/features
No reward for hard work. Forget it. There should be rewards for both hard work and quest completion.
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
--------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Comments
NO KIDDING!!!! They want to make this as close to P-n-P as possible, yet, when in the history of D&D did you NOT get XP for killing that puny little goblin or the raging Dragon(and then steal his hoard
). Well, I have to say.......hmm........well.......I dunno what to say to such! I suppose they are changing it from - kill=xp...to a system that is- Quest Complete=XP....as long as the XP is balanced for leveling purposes as if you did kill all of those goblins, then, I guess it is ok. Though, if you can complete the quest without killing then.....this means that the Rogue will be a premiere choice in choosing a playable Class. Why pick a big strong fighter to push his way through the hoards and possibly die, when, you can sneak around, avoid all that you can, and then get the same XP as the one who fought long and hard to get there!!! Tisk Tisk..........That is not D&D.......(well, I guess it would be if it was some DM's house rule...
) Not that I am trying to be sarcastic here! 
Well I for one grew up playing D&D, I still have the original books and all, and I don't remember ever once, as either a DM or a player, where we stopped after every kill and awarded xp....
When we played XP was always calculated and awarded at the end of the adventure. Granted this took into account mobs killed and loot and all the other factors, but it was done at the end of the adventure or quest or whatever you wanted to call it.
This is how I imagine D&DO to be. Yeah, you only get XP from the adventures but I picture this taking into account the XP due for the stuff you killed as part of the adventure. Basically they're saying you won't be able to go out to a random spawn point and mindlessly kill stuff over and over just to rack up XP like most other MMOs out there. If you want XP go on a quest/adventure, complete it and at the end you'll get an adequate reward XP-wise for the work you put into it...
Of course I could be completely wrong but thats how I picture it...
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Having Dungeon-Mastered since 1977, I can tell you without any hesitation that I tallied every single kill and totalled exp at the end of the adventure based on quest, RP, kills, and effort.
To not award exp for kills and believe that it somehow makes a good fit with the original game is to ignore the exp values printed in the MMs.
Might as well just award exp for the sake of awarding exp, for no apparent reason, just to make players feel good.
What a load of poop.
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
--------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
I think what the game is going to do....as stated......is, total in all of what you just said and reward at the end of the Quest.We are not going to see it take effect at the end of each and every kill, but, the end results will be, or should be, roughly the same as if they had factored in every single kill. So, If I killed the 4 goblins at the entrance (XP=40 for kills if only 4 total in Quest), then rescued the unicorn and returned it to the NPC Druid then at the end of the Quest (XP=100 for Quest). Go back to the NPC Druid and voila....140 XP for finishing the quest! Now, If all I did was go and kill the Goblins, I would get no XP because I did not finish the Quest...that part would suck and the fact that if I totally pass by the Goblins I get the same XP as those who did.......Then again, that could be the factor for ROLE PLAY purpose and EFFORT. If the Rogue sneaks past, then, give him/her the 40 XP for Role Playing his/her Character and for effort. Sounds pretty balanced to me!
Still, I am just a Noob DM of only 7-8 years or so and only a player for 10, so, who am I?
And I still feel that you're jumping to conclusions based on a very vague statement in an interview conducted very early in development. It is VERY simple for them to award XP for monsters killed within the system they're using. Say you're awarded 2500 exp at the end of an adventure... 1000 of that could be the completion award, 500 for puzzle solving, and 1000 total tallied from the XX number of mobs you killed during the course of the adventure. But instead of breaking it down individually and awarding you 25xp per kill as soon as the kill is over it simply tallies it all up and when you finish the final objective it says "Congratz, you receive 2500 XP for completing the 'Kill Bob the Lich' Quest"...
Like I said earlier, I could be wrong but I'm quite sure that the number of mobs killed DURING an adventure will definitely tie into the total adventure reward... They're simply trying to reiterate in that interview that there won't be XP awarded for simply grinding away on killing mobs like in 90% of the MMOs out there. In most games out there people generally grind on killing mobs for XP and levels and quest on the side for the loot/gold/rewards. In my opinion D&DO is trying to change that so the quests and storylines are the primary focus again, not a side feature used simply to outfit your toon so you can move on to the next best spawn point to grind out a couple more levels.
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Tilden you're not thinking it through, Alalium has the right idea.
You can't expect the game to be exactly the same as the PnP version. Like other people said, a) no one ever awards exp after every kill, and b) killing monsters in the countryside means they will have to respawn, respawning never really happened in the PnP version. If you killed a goblin, you wouldn't sit at the same spot and wait for the same goblin to magically reappear.
In this game, the exp is awarded at the end of completing a mission, like the pnp version. Now seeing as most of the missions are specifically designed instances, that means that they were all designed with a specific limited amount of monsters, so that the devs could award an appropriate amount of exp if you defeated the monsters in the mission as well as completing it.
But I have to say, I don't think I'd want to play D&D with you, because it sounds like you're one of those who likes to just hack'n'slash everything. That's no fun. Half the fun is that you don't have to just hack up everything you meet, and THAT is one of the reasons they decided not to make exp per kill. They made it so that you can get XP if you are the rogue that sneaks past and stealthily completes the objective, or if you use your spells or whatever to find a way around and complete the mission too. They made it more like a ROLEPLAYING game instead of just kill everything you see. They made it so that one person or the whole group, can get exp and rewards for completing the mission whether they chose to hack their way in or outsmart the npc's. That's what D&D is all about, the freedom to succeed on your own merits rather than killing X number of monsters to reach the new level.
I mean, why should you get a level to show you have become more experienced and better at your craft if all you did was kill the same 3 goblins 5,000 times. Sure you're really good at kiling those 3 goblins, but it doesn't really mean squat if you haven't actually accomplished anything.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Your not going to be on quest/adventures 100% of your time. A lot of time will be traveling, too. Is there no spawns at all? Sounds boring, if so. How will they give you xp if you're attacked while not on a quest? Also, let me quote this:
[quote] As long as the quest goals are completed, we dont really care how many enemies you kill along the way. [/quote]
So, no you won't be rewarded for ANY kills EVER. Whether you kill 1 or 5,000 according to this statement you will get the same xp.
Actually, you WILL be on quests/in dungeons 100% of the time--when not in town, that is. There won't be any travel time, or travelling in between locations. You get your quest, then leave the city, and bam your're pretty much there.
This is one of the few things I don't necessarily agree with about the game, but other than that, everythng else is very much D&D.
By the way, for those complaining about the 'no XP for kiling monsters' thing, take some time and read up on how experience works in the PnP game sometime. Nowhere does it say that the experience gained from monsters is solely for killing them--it is for overcoming them in any way, shape or form. It also makes sense that XP is awarded only at the end of an adventure--just like the PnP game.
My campaigns were always story-driven, with enough hack&slash to satisfy a bloodlust challenge. My play-style is besides the point, and whether someone would want to play in my campaigns or not is irrelevant.
As mentioned, DDO is still in development and at an early stage. Many games change cherished developer ideas (cherished=poop) to satisfy the broader desires of the customer base. Games that do not fail miserably or languish with low subscriber numbers.
Extreme exaggeration is a favorite amateur debate tactic, but does not win arguments with me. Whether I kill the same 3 goblins 5000 times or kill the whole countryside and wipe it clear of dragons, goblin hordes, orc raiders and nasty undead, my ability to learn with each encounter will translate realistically into greater ability to accomplish such bloodletting with ease.
If I wipe out the countryside but fail to save the mushroom-headed princess's comb from being eaten by the evil turtle-king, should I receive no advancement? Because her poor little comb got eaten, I suddenly cannot learn anything from killing the countryside? What a joke of a game that would be. Even failure teaches us lessons.
Take a note on how twisted and cock-eyed the reasoning has become:
["By the way, for those complaining about the 'no XP for kiling monsters' thing, take some time and read up on how experience works in the PnP game sometime. Nowhere does it say that the experience gained from monsters is solely for killing them--it is for overcoming them in any way, shape or form."]
This statement is inserted with a "you don't know what you're talking about" amateur put-down, followed by a valid point about exp awards, but presented as an argument against the very definition of his valid point. I wonder if the guy is a ballet dancer to twist and turn in just one small paragraph.
Translation for the slow: "overcoming" includes other ways besides killing, but does not say instead of killing. So to not award exp for a kill violates the very valid definition the "dancer" brought up.
If the game follows the original quote, it won't be worth the time. The game will be a novelty, for being quest-only, and languish with a low subscriber-base. We can only hope, given enough time to read potential customer feedback, that Turbine will alter that line of development.
Personally, I love the idea of instanced quest zones, but if the game goes solely in that direction, it will be nothing more than Guild Wars under another name. The game needs to appeal to as many players as possible, including old-timers like me who want to be rewarded for effort - even if it's just clearing the countryside of bandit camps.
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
--------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Never played D&D in my life and I'm proud.
The only reason I have a remote hint of what it's like is because I play Neverwinter Nights.
Tilden, you can be as long-winded as you want with this topic, but all it boils down to is that DDO is not handling things how *you* handle them in *your* game.
Now, that being said, I'm not going to sit here and try and make you look like an idiot like you attempted to do with me, but will attempt to provide some reasoning as to why I think they are doing things the way they are.
I think the 'no xp for killing monsters' is in effect, from purely an MMO perspective, to try and eliminate mob grinding. This is also why I think the dungeons will all have set number of monsters and/or obstacles that will not respawn. Grinding would really hurt a game that only has 20 levels, in my opinion.
Also Tilden, I think that you are overlooking the fact that the xp awarded at the end of the adventure takes into account enemies defeated--it's not like you won't get anything at all.
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
--------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
It sounds like there's no travelling, no exploring, no opportunities for random advancement. Not even sure how you meet other ppl or roleplay..
You're in town. You click on a quest giver. He teleports you to the instance. You do the quest. You teleport back. Yes, you might be in a group with like 4 other people, but apart from that, how is this a multi player game? Is there even a world outside the town??
It sounds clever to try to remove every feature of every other MMORPG, but some of those features were GOOD. I like running round in WoW killing easy mobs, helping low level people quest, etc. I used to like exploring in SWG, stumbling across a new place, or a player town with vendors selling stuff players made. All those things promoted Role Playing, as limited as RP is in these things.
I'd say, instead of trying to eliminate everything, just add all those features and let people level however they want. And spend your time adding emotes and ways that players can RP with each other and create their own sub plots.
Oh, and I've been a DM for 23 years, and if players had a long journey through, say, forests, on their way to the "Castle of Dread" or whatever, and had encounters on the way, I would always give them their XP. Only fair if they spent the time.
"Suddenly, three wolves emerge from the treeline and attack! Hack Hack Hack Hack Hack. The last wolf dies. Ok, they were all level 5, there are 5 of you, you all fought them, have 3 XP each" (quick note on my page, takes seconds only)
On other forums, I can sometimes be a very noisy fan for dungeons. For example, in Horizons, I made many posts complaining about the lack of dungeons. In SWG, I made many complaints that the missions were all outdoors surrounding what looked to be an outhouse or smoking piles of poop. Where were the indoor missions?
So I like the idea that DDO will have quest dungeons and quest lairs, but the lack of the outdoor randomness and open feel would drive me out of the game.
I love dungeons - my style of play in other MMOGs has been anti-grind and solely dungeon-diving. But to take away the outdoor wander around areas takes away from the immersion of finding a nasty lair or a dank dungeon without having to be told to go there, or worse yet, get teleported there.
Bah.
I was chewing over the no-exp issue with my wife last night and she kept making faces. She finally asked, "why have monsters?" about the same time I asked myself the same thing. Why have monsters at all? If you get no exp for them, only for completing the dungeons, then why not just have all the dungeons be nothing but big puzzles? There! That will stop all the grinding. Wouldn't that make us all just feel great? I don't say this tongue-in-cheek, either. The questions beg to be answered.
Why have monsters at all? Why have different classes? Why have armor? What's the point? Just completing the quest?
S I L L Y
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
--------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
omg i'm SOOOO tired of just hack and slash games and Power Levelers and all the STUPID IDIOTS you get in EVERY OTHER MMORPG out there. i agree no exp for a kill is bad, but this is D&D. true, you wanted to learn while you were going, but the way they made most games these days is rediculous. there's no roleplaying in RPGs anymore. you're bashing what was honestly the best system and most realistic to date. you think squirrels and rats randomly pop out of grass? and if you kill something, something else instantly is there or that there is instantly more within 30 seconds? if you just like killing things, find and download the half life mod called scientist hunt (shunt) and slaughter scientists with alot more gore than you'd ever see in a rpg.
i DM myself, been playing since '90 and DMing the past 10 years. i would calculate the exp for each room of a dungeon/area before the adventure and then add at the quest exp at the end... basing the story on the characters in my group, etc and make sure they couldn't hack and slash everything, not to mention if they lost their character, the others in the group had to go on some long adventure to ressurect him if the cleric couldn't do it. and guess what, my friends LOVED my adventures, to the point where if they have a d&d session, they want me to DM.
jesus, anyone who complains that you don't get exp after every kill, every swing of your sword is an idiot in my opinion, and honestly i get bored sorting through little gnats of monsters that constantly spawn on my way to town more than questing. i'd like to think that you can survive on not killing everything... that there's not an infinate number of humans/animals/bugs/plants in the world.
I will reluctantly agree with the OP.
In D&D, if you dont care for the quest or whatever and go on a killing spray, you get the xp for the random stuff you kill, no account to any quest. I dont care to not get the XP after every mob, but actually, after an evening or 2 of not completing ANY quest and just murdering stuff, you often get a level, and it was solely based on the mobs.
Maybe the XP should be awarded the first time you log in, after a rest of at least 3 hour, on a wednesday or saturday...it would reflect the usual XP earning ways of classic D&D.
But again, real time is a LOT more concerning then this topic.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Diplomacy 0 rank. Intimidate check, failure. The community is laughing at you.
How do you react?
*take a Gygax style*
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
drop pants, moon, run from guards poking their pikes at my lily white ass. *exp+20 for witty comeback*
lol that's usually how it went
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
--------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
well, so you don't get extra exp for killing monsters. if there's no encounters outside of quests and you need to kill a dragon to complete the quest, who cares what little things you're killing, all that matters is the big kahuna. so you sneak by all the little monsters and kill the big mean dragon(with your bare hands. Amazing, isn't it?), get the hoard and exp and or prize for completing the quest without having to worry, "ok, did i explore every other little crack in the wall and crevace of the dungeon to make sure i killed all the mosnters?"
what matters should be completing the quest, not how good a mass murderer you are to all the pixels on the screen. there needs to be more brain power used than by a playground bully
although yes, after a trying day at the office, getting hounded by 6 bosses and 3 office dullards all day you just wanna kill something, that's when i bring up battlefield or unreal tournament or something like that.
a game that's supposed to be based on more than killing should mean you don't have to kill everything to win. like some of those theif missions... although you COULD have killed everyone, you couldn't complete the mission if you killed anyone. (You're a theif, not a murderer) can you imagine a story based solely on killing everyone...
"I woke up with my sword in my hand again... i saw someone and didn't care, i just killed them. then his friends came after me, i killed them too. i found i was getting better at this, so i killed more. I found a better sword, it lets me kill 2 people at once."
seriously... although that's not all that's happening with paper and pencil, you have to roll dice too, but that's a third person veiw of what's happening in 90% of mmorpgs out there.
you say this game would be perfect for me, i agree. where it doesn't matter how many other little people i trample on, as long as i get the quest done, i get the WHOLE amount of exp for the area. doesn't seriously matter if i kill and loot everything. besides, it would get rid of people who only like to kill everything. it would encourage more teamwork. listening to everyone instead of the barbarians who just run ahead all the time.
but hey, i'm just a big dreamer. i dream of a day when people are considerate of others, don't steal my kills, don't loot my kills, don't kill me just cause i'm there and i have a nice hat that i spent 6 days working to get cause i only play 2 hours a day, or plain just kill me cause i'm there and they don't like that i'm alive. yeah, i had alot of bad experiences with alot of mmorpgs. why don't i just play solo rpgs? cause i've also had alot of fun times with mmorpgs. it is literally a small(but large) group of people that tends to ruin the game enough where i don't wanna play anymore so i move onto the next one.
guild wars was a good game, it stopped alot of that, but then you get the people that just run ahead and get so deep into the thick of things the healers can't heal them, so they die and then bitch at the healers for not healing them. ultimately, yes, it's the people that make the game bad. i understand that, but if the game drives away the crowd that's like that, then i'd give it a 12 on a 1-10 scale, no matter how bugged the gameplay is. that's just me.
i was looking over forums cause i just had another bad experience on yet another mmorpg when i saw that and decided i would rant about it. whenever they get DDO out for a public beta, i'll still be one of the first to sign up, no matter how many of you people trash talk it. i like it because of what they are trying to make it and so far, they're doing a good job. paper and pencil are still my favorate way to play, but when i can't get the group together, mmorpgs are still my game of choice.
The monsters within the quest instance will add to the overall difficulty rating of the quest and hence increase the XP awarded for successful completion of said quest.
Whether you sneak past, bluff or skewer those monsters does not matter, this game will reward you for creative play and mindless killing equally.
In all my years of DMing I have never awarded XP after each kill so that my players are grinding per kill, I may award it at the end of a long session, after 3 or 4 small sessions or when a major objective has been completed.
Ok...I was really wanting to play this game until reading this. To not get exp for killing monsters goes against everything that is D&D. If this doesn't change, I won't be throwing my money away on this game. I don't think it is fair that you HAVE to do quests. BAH!