Well, look, I know this has been danced around, but I'll take Venger's redundant question here and hammer the issue.
To answer the question, rarely. Yes, there were times we received exp mid-adventure. Were we awarded exp after every single kill? Of course not, and I really think such exaggeration tries to ram the issue home without reason.
Whether we were awarded exp after every kill, or three times, or twice, or only once during the adventure makes no difference. Each mob killed was tallied for exp and divvied up later. The fact remains that exp was awarded for mobs.
If we are to accept a one-time-per-night award as an excuse to claim monsters don't really give exp, then I can just as easily counter that every successful quest did not count, but rather the mob-killing. So, the argument about how often exp was awarded means nothing to the question. Might as well claim that exp was for just "showing up" at the game, rather than anything you did.
Let's think reasonably, here.
In a game where mobs don't count, there is no reason to confront them, unless you're a masochist.
Games: WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL --------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
You'd be stupid to physically confront every monster that is put before you if there is an easier route to take or a way to talk your way past the monster.
THAT is what DDO is trying to bring into the game, not just a hack and slash everything must be put to the sword game.
The monsters go into the CR of the quest, for the purpose of the quest it doesn't matter how you overcome those challenges along the way. Traps have challenge ratings as well so is anyone complaining about not getting XP after every trap that is disarmed?
The XP for the individual encounters will be in there, the idea is to ignore the individual XP award enjoy the quest and get the sum total at the end (less counting, more fun)
I just dont want it to boil down to a hack and slash fest, this twitch based combat they are implementing was never what D&D was about, i would prefer a more tactical aproach to fighting, more in line with the PNP version.
Originally posted by Tilden Well, look, I know this has been danced around, but I'll take Venger's redundant question here and hammer the issue. To answer the question, rarely. Yes, there were times we received exp mid-adventure. Were we awarded exp after every single kill? Of course not, and I really think such exaggeration tries to ram the issue home without reason. Whether we were awarded exp after every kill, or three times, or twice, or only once during the adventure makes no difference. Each mob killed was tallied for exp and divvied up later. The fact remains that exp was awarded for mobs. If we are to accept a one-time-per-night award as an excuse to claim monsters don't really give exp, then I can just as easily counter that every successful quest did not count, but rather the mob-killing. So, the argument about how often exp was awarded means nothing to the question. Might as well claim that exp was for just "showing up" at the game, rather than anything you did. Let's think reasonably, here. In a game where mobs don't count, there is no reason to confront them, unless you're a masochist.
So you would rather see more xp for mindlessly swinging your sword over actually putting thought into what you are trying to accomplish? I personally award more xp when I dm if my pc do something smart over ugh I walk in and slaughter everything. Ofcourse sometimes walking in and slaughtering everything is the objective but that doesn't always have to be the way.
You also wouldn't be getting xp once per night it is once per instance and instances I heard can run between 1/2 to 1 hours.
There is certainly no argument from me about awarding exp to clever players. Done it many times.
Hmm... maybe another way to explain my point? I'll try an analogy.
Say DDO is all about questing (as it is) and that mobs don't give exp (as it is). But let's say that none of the quests are in dungeons, or that dungeon areas do not count towards completion of the quest and getting exp.
There would be no point to ever going into a dungeon.
According to everyone arguing here, that would be fine and dandy because it eliminates pointless dungeon-crawling, right? The quest is all that matters!
Where did this idea come from the Dungeons and Dragons was all about quests? People are confusing DDO with Everquest. I seem to remember that D&D was all about adventure. Remove mob exp and you have Dungeons and Quests, not Dungeons and Dragons. Remove dungeons and you have Quests and Dragons, not Dungeons and Dragons. Remove both dungeons and dragons and what do you have left?
Just a bunch of crap.
The vaunted argument of removing mindless mob grinding will just mean players will grind quests. Removing mob exp is going about it the wrong way.
Hell, why not remove quests, even, and just award exp on how well you roleplay? How many "thous" can you cram into a sentence?
Dungeons and Dragons without mob exp is like Star Trek with no spaceships.
Games: WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL --------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Originally posted by Alkanphel Old timer I am gonna have to agree with you on the last post! *Shocked*?
Not in the least - and you know why? Because I'm preaching to the choir. All the old-timers who had to suffer through the public persecution in the 70s and 80s of being a player of "that devil game," will know what it means to understand and love what D&D is/was. The love for D&D is what I share with the other old-timers. So when I make that appeal, it's going to touch sympathetic minds.
Every D&D gamer out there will understand exactly what I'm saying if the hype is stripped away from the DDO plans.
I'll repeat that I'm not trying to say that DDO should be religious in its imitation of the PnP version, but that when you remove what seems to be a critical element to me, what else are we going to accept to be sacrificed in the name of new ideas?
Are new ideas good? Absolutely! New ideas drive our civilization. But when you have stripped a product of what made it unique, then you no longer have a "new and improved" product, but something different. Take the backlash on Coca-Cola and their "New Coke" fiasco. Take the backlash on Jeep for introducing square headlights. Take the backlash and nostalgia for Jack-in-the-Box's dumb Jack-head (perhaps the most negligible of the examples).
Half of my adventure as a player was facing and defeating fearsome creatures. This new direction almost seems PC (politically correct) and removes half the reason I played. Don't hurt the monsters, PETM might get after you (People for the Ethical Treatment of Monsters). So, instead of rewarding you for killing like a savage, we want you to "grow up" and to try to learn to "love" the monster. Trick it if you must, you filthy savage, but don't kill it because we won't reward you.
Hell, welfare benefits and criminal coddling for vicious child-eating dragons aren't far behind.
Games: WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL --------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Whew! Glad I read this before I even thought about wanting this to come out. No exp for mobs = one more BS game I won't be playing. Ever. It shames me as a long (longer than I care to admit) time rpg player to see D&D remotely associated with something like this. Par for the course I guess.
I wish to God I didn't know now; the things I didn't know then.
For one wait till the damn thing comes out and give it a try before beating it down with a stick lol I dont like the idea myself much but im not gonna bash it till ive least tried it.
I must admit I actually like the Idea, I been playing several MMORPGS, and one thing there always seem to be a problem is powerplayers, players that will use macroing, or 3rd party software to gain levels Skills etc, It seems to me by making the Xp system so your avarded for the quest themself and not for the kills, a good way to avoid some of those problems, But i also se the coming of problems with this system, what if you have to logout in the middle of an adventure, will you be rewarded for the % of the adventure compleated or will you recieve nothing at all..?????
I know some of you think its Blasphemy to not get avarded for every kill, but being a old Paper and pen player as well as DM, I must admit I tend to reward players more for Ideas, initiative and problem solving more than the kills, so to me the missing XP dont matter much, but lets see how it works before we start Screaming from the top of our lungs.
Personally, I don't have an issue with the lack of XP for farming monsters at all. I've had quite enough of logging on to an MMORPG so that I can run out to a nice farming spot to kill monsters ad-infinitum to gain a level, thank you very much.
I've been DM'ing since 1984. It's been a long time since I gave XP purely for monster kills. If the slaughter that your barbarian inflicts upon an orcish tribe doesn't move the story along, it isn't worthy of XP. On the other hand, I hand out major XP for good RP, thoughtful gameplay, and completing quests.
In the online environment, I think that this philosophy will work very well. For one thing, it'll reign in the kiddies who'll log in just to become uber... in this setting, in order to become stronger, they'll have to actually play the game, instead of running bots and macros 24/7. For another (as another poster has pointed out) the XP you glean will almost certainly be adjusted for the difficulty of the quest, and will take into account the amount of devastation you were forced to wreak.
This is obviously a very subjective thing, and we're not all going to agree on a viewpoint. Me, I think the idea is very cool, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it's implemented.
Lets see we have one large town where everyone meets up and they band together in a party. Then they go and have an adventure in an instanced environment where no other players are.
Wait a minute that sounds kind of familliar.....Oh yeah now I remember .....its Guild Wars.
Yeah I want to pay a monthly fee to play the same game I play now for nothing.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Originally posted by starman999 This game sounds really creative..... Lets see we have one large town where everyone meets up and they band together in a party. Then they go and have an adventure in an instanced environment where no other players are. Wait a minute that sounds kind of familliar.....Oh yeah now I remember .....its Guild Wars. Yeah I want to pay a monthly fee to play the same game I play now for nothing.
Because, of course, every new game has to be completely different from every other game on the market for it to be any fun... right?
Comments
Well, look, I know this has been danced around, but I'll take Venger's redundant question here and hammer the issue.
To answer the question, rarely. Yes, there were times we received exp mid-adventure. Were we awarded exp after every single kill? Of course not, and I really think such exaggeration tries to ram the issue home without reason.
Whether we were awarded exp after every kill, or three times, or twice, or only once during the adventure makes no difference. Each mob killed was tallied for exp and divvied up later. The fact remains that exp was awarded for mobs.
If we are to accept a one-time-per-night award as an excuse to claim monsters don't really give exp, then I can just as easily counter that every successful quest did not count, but rather the mob-killing. So, the argument about how often exp was awarded means nothing to the question. Might as well claim that exp was for just "showing up" at the game, rather than anything you did.
Let's think reasonably, here.
In a game where mobs don't count, there is no reason to confront them, unless you're a masochist.
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
--------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
You'd be stupid to physically confront every monster that is put before you if there is an easier route to take or a way to talk your way past the monster.
THAT is what DDO is trying to bring into the game, not just a hack and slash everything must be put to the sword game.
The monsters go into the CR of the quest, for the purpose of the quest it doesn't matter how you overcome those challenges along the way. Traps have challenge ratings as well so is anyone complaining about not getting XP after every trap that is disarmed?
The XP for the individual encounters will be in there, the idea is to ignore the individual XP award enjoy the quest and get the sum total at the end (less counting, more fun)
I just dont want it to boil down to a hack and slash fest, this twitch based combat they are implementing was never what D&D was about, i would prefer a more tactical aproach to fighting, more in line with the PNP version.
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
So you would rather see more xp for mindlessly swinging your sword over actually putting thought into what you are trying to accomplish? I personally award more xp when I dm if my pc do something smart over ugh I walk in and slaughter everything. Ofcourse sometimes walking in and slaughtering everything is the objective but that doesn't always have to be the way.
You also wouldn't be getting xp once per night it is once per instance and instances I heard can run between 1/2 to 1 hours.
There is certainly no argument from me about awarding exp to clever players. Done it many times.
Hmm... maybe another way to explain my point? I'll try an analogy.
Say DDO is all about questing (as it is) and that mobs don't give exp (as it is). But let's say that none of the quests are in dungeons, or that dungeon areas do not count towards completion of the quest and getting exp.
There would be no point to ever going into a dungeon.
According to everyone arguing here, that would be fine and dandy because it eliminates pointless dungeon-crawling, right? The quest is all that matters!
Where did this idea come from the Dungeons and Dragons was all about quests? People are confusing DDO with Everquest. I seem to remember that D&D was all about adventure. Remove mob exp and you have Dungeons and Quests, not Dungeons and Dragons. Remove dungeons and you have Quests and Dragons, not Dungeons and Dragons. Remove both dungeons and dragons and what do you have left?
Just a bunch of crap.
The vaunted argument of removing mindless mob grinding will just mean players will grind quests. Removing mob exp is going about it the wrong way.
Hell, why not remove quests, even, and just award exp on how well you roleplay? How many "thous" can you cram into a sentence?
Dungeons and Dragons without mob exp is like Star Trek with no spaceships.
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
--------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Maybe Pshcologically they should eliminate quests, and say a variety of adventures awaits you in DDO! Or instead of adventures maybe modules
Old timer I am gonna have to agree with you on the last post! *Shocked*?
ADVENTURES
Each of these never-before-published D&D minimodules offers an evening's worth of gaming fun. New adventures are added each month.
Not in the least - and you know why? Because I'm preaching to the choir. All the old-timers who had to suffer through the public persecution in the 70s and 80s of being a player of "that devil game," will know what it means to understand and love what D&D is/was. The love for D&D is what I share with the other old-timers. So when I make that appeal, it's going to touch sympathetic minds.
Every D&D gamer out there will understand exactly what I'm saying if the hype is stripped away from the DDO plans.
I'll repeat that I'm not trying to say that DDO should be religious in its imitation of the PnP version, but that when you remove what seems to be a critical element to me, what else are we going to accept to be sacrificed in the name of new ideas?
Are new ideas good? Absolutely! New ideas drive our civilization. But when you have stripped a product of what made it unique, then you no longer have a "new and improved" product, but something different. Take the backlash on Coca-Cola and their "New Coke" fiasco. Take the backlash on Jeep for introducing square headlights. Take the backlash and nostalgia for Jack-in-the-Box's dumb Jack-head (perhaps the most negligible of the examples).
Half of my adventure as a player was facing and defeating fearsome creatures. This new direction almost seems PC (politically correct) and removes half the reason I played. Don't hurt the monsters, PETM might get after you (People for the Ethical Treatment of Monsters). So, instead of rewarding you for killing like a savage, we want you to "grow up" and to try to learn to "love" the monster. Trick it if you must, you filthy savage, but don't kill it because we won't reward you.
Hell, welfare benefits and criminal coddling for vicious child-eating dragons aren't far behind.
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
--------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
I wish to God I didn't know now; the things I didn't know then.
I must admit I actually like the Idea, I been playing several MMORPGS, and one thing there always seem to be a problem is powerplayers, players that will use macroing, or 3rd party software to gain levels Skills etc, It seems to me by making the Xp system so your avarded for the quest themself and not for the kills, a good way to avoid some of those problems, But i also se the coming of problems with this system, what if you have to logout in the middle of an adventure, will you be rewarded for the % of the adventure compleated or will you recieve nothing at all..?????
I know some of you think its Blasphemy to not get avarded for every kill, but being a old Paper and pen player as well as DM, I must admit I tend to reward players more for Ideas, initiative and problem solving more than the kills, so to me the missing XP dont matter much, but lets see how it works before we start Screaming from the top of our lungs.
We can onlty hope for a good game
Personally, I don't have an issue with the lack of XP for farming monsters at all. I've had quite enough of logging on to an MMORPG so that I can run out to a nice farming spot to kill monsters ad-infinitum to gain a level, thank you very much.
I've been DM'ing since 1984. It's been a long time since I gave XP purely for monster kills. If the slaughter that your barbarian inflicts upon an orcish tribe doesn't move the story along, it isn't worthy of XP. On the other hand, I hand out major XP for good RP, thoughtful gameplay, and completing quests.
In the online environment, I think that this philosophy will work very well. For one thing, it'll reign in the kiddies who'll log in just to become uber... in this setting, in order to become stronger, they'll have to actually play the game, instead of running bots and macros 24/7. For another (as another poster has pointed out) the XP you glean will almost certainly be adjusted for the difficulty of the quest, and will take into account the amount of devastation you were forced to wreak.
This is obviously a very subjective thing, and we're not all going to agree on a viewpoint. Me, I think the idea is very cool, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it's implemented.
This game sounds really creative.....
Lets see we have one large town where everyone meets up and they band together in a party. Then they go and have an adventure in an instanced environment where no other players are.
Wait a minute that sounds kind of familliar.....Oh yeah now I remember .....its Guild Wars.
Yeah I want to pay a monthly fee to play the same game I play now for nothing.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Because, of course, every new game has to be completely different from every other game on the market for it to be any fun... right?
Troll much?