Yeah I think there could be people in CoE who kill me by being a villain whom I will appreciate, but being killed with no context would be less enjoyable.
Ganking = No Context Griefing = No Context + Insults & Trolling
If you are from a rival Kingdom, are acting as an assassin of your King to retrieve gold from houses near the border to help fund skirmishers, and break into my house to steal my gold then it's all good. The tension of that danger enhances the world as a place of risk and adventure.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Also @avanah what gives you the idea that griefers are pennyless kids? For the most part, what most would consider 'griefing' is just a playstyle choice. Rather than focus on building they try to tear down what others have done. There's nothing immature about it. There are also people that behave this way in real world business, who are adults, where you might be able to make ethical arguments. But on a video game? It's a perfectly valid playstyle that many adults might find attractive. It's fun to be the bad guy, and if done with tact, is just as vital to community interaction as cooperative gaming.
But if this kind of interaction bothers you, it begs the question why you'd wanna play a game that highlights it in the first place.
Unless you had some other idea of 'griefing'?
Being a villain and being a griefer are two different things. They're not mutually exclusive. Being a villain "with tact" is essentially the complete opposite. The very nature of being a griefer is going against the grain of what constitutes fair productive play. It's essentially skirting the line of what is considered abusive or disruptive. Going as far as one can without getting banned or punished. It's essentially synonymous with being a true troll on a forum
True griefers are few and far between in my experience. Most are just doing as you say "playing the villain". Which is all fine and good in a player driven experience.
As you say, a 'true griefer' would be rare. If they are synonymous with forum trolls it would stand to reason trolls would be equally as rare. And another correlation is how often both words are thrown around respectively. To your random uninitiated forum goer, anyone who disagrees with them is a troll. By the same token less savvy players are all too quick to claim anyone who acted as a barrier to their goals griefed them. To me if you're acting in accordance with a games TOS you're not griefing anyone. But, especially in a pvp game the masses wont see it that way.
As I said the term is so vague and interchangeable. How is this game system going to deter griefing by your or my own definition? It wont. Killing someone in a pvp game is not griefing. This is a RP immersion system with a price tag, and to a lesser extent meant to deter zerging. But griefing? Its not even related. If its an open world pvp game and your humble noncombat baker gets killed by CartmanLives2016 the famous douchebag assassin its your fault for plaing this kinda game. The bounty system is just flavour.
Also @avanah what gives you the idea that griefers are pennyless kids? For the most part, what most would consider 'griefing' is just a playstyle choice. Rather than focus on building they try to tear down what others have done. There's nothing immature about it. There are also people that behave this way in real world business, who are adults, where you might be able to make ethical arguments. But on a video game? It's a perfectly valid playstyle that many adults might find attractive. It's fun to be the bad guy, and if done with tact, is just as vital to community interaction as cooperative gaming.
But if this kind of interaction bothers you, it begs the question why you'd wanna play a game that highlights it in the first place.
Unless you had some other idea of 'griefing'?
So, you're a griefer?
I have received hate tells from players who felt I was imposing my playstyle on theirs, and it did not compel me to stop what I was doing. I believe from the accepted definition that would qualify me as a griefer.
So you send hate tells?
Why is it hard for you to be a gentleman? Why couldn't you stop?
Not being an ass. These are sincere questions.
Why expect someone to act the gentleman when you're hurling obscenities at them?
Im a reasonable man, which is much more than I can say for your average mmo player.
Also @avanah what gives you the idea that griefers are pennyless kids? For the most part, what most would consider 'griefing' is just a playstyle choice. Rather than focus on building they try to tear down what others have done. There's nothing immature about it. There are also people that behave this way in real world business, who are adults, where you might be able to make ethical arguments. But on a video game? It's a perfectly valid playstyle that many adults might find attractive. It's fun to be the bad guy, and if done with tact, is just as vital to community interaction as cooperative gaming.
But if this kind of interaction bothers you, it begs the question why you'd wanna play a game that highlights it in the first place.
Unless you had some other idea of 'griefing'?
So, you're a griefer?
I have received hate tells from players who felt I was imposing my playstyle on theirs, and it did not compel me to stop what I was doing. I believe from the accepted definition that would qualify me as a griefer.
So you send hate tells?
Why is it hard for you to be a gentleman? Why couldn't you stop?
Not being an ass. These are sincere questions.
Why expect someone to act the gentleman when you're hurling obscenities at them?
Im a reasonable man, which is much more than I can say for your average mmo player.
$5 dollars should never have any bearing on weather you play a game unless you have zero income. The only problem i foresee is that NOBODY really knows the outcome of this game design and may not for a long time yet.
Everyone is making assumptions,i don't like to do that ,the only thing i dwell on is the fact that uncertainties is NEVER good for the gamer,it leaves to many open doors and why i have and never will endorse cash shops or unfair,unequal monetary systems.You will ALWAYS 100% of the time alienate one player over another and that is just not good for gaming.
The problem I see with the execution of this games design is that it assumes the people playing it will engage these game systems like it is a virtual world and not a game. Developers should never presume to know how players will react in any situation or to design. The focus should be on making a solid playable game, and then adjust in a live environment to what they see.
They want uber realism and full pvp and yet expect the soft barriers they put in place will be suficient to deter the player. You either want full pvp or you dont. And if it's supported by mechanics players will use it, a lot. From the way the devs talk they havent even considered the multitude of ways full pvp games can be manipulated. If their interest is in reinventing the wheel my hats off to em. So far they seem to only think theyve reinvented the MMO playerbase.
I don't even presume that people in real life will approach the given systems with any sense of fidelity to their stated purposes, so of course one doesn't expect this in a game. As I've posted before, where a system can be abused there is always someone determined to make it so. That just speaks to human nature. All we can do, as in real life, is to shore up the most glaring avenues for exploitation and make the penalties for abuse steep enough to ward off all but the most determined. But 100% grief proof? Well, that's not going to happen and judging a game based on speculation that it won't be the first to prevent it is rather here nor there kibbitzing.
J
Maybe you need to read the OP, which is the general idea people should be responding to rather than inventing their own arguments and (kibbitzing). The idea proposed by this thread is that this game will eliminate griefing based on the merit of a flimsy proposed design. Now that you're up to speed, you're formally welcomed to the discussion if you have something to add.
My contention is simply that this is a full pvp game and people should approach it as such. There is a lot of naivety in the emotional responses to this proposed game, and many people seem to be forgetting or just don't know what a full pvp game is or the implications of such a design. You either get on board with a kill or be killed mentality, hope they change direction, or steer clear of this one. That is both here and there.
The only good advice to give someone in a full pvp game is to play wisely, and dont rely on arbitrary rulesets to protect you if you play stupid, it won't work. And even if you play smart you're still going to be griefed anyways. The end.
But I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to you. And nothing that you've posted here has negated anything that I posted in the response that you quoted. It wasn't even much of an issue taking with that post, frankly. If I do err, it's in presuming on my own clarity. Let me remedy that:
No one, at least not the developers, and certainly not the informed backers, has illusions about the kinds of people who wander through these games. Mechanics will be put into place that attempt to lessen the incidences of wanton griefing but experience suggests that it will happen. It will happen because people are people and they have a natural creativeness when it comes to destruction that is unequalled. To contend with the game because it hasn't demonstrated a foolproof system for preventing such behavior is kibbitzing because no game has, to date. It's a useless bone of contention. So if a person alleges that this game will not prevent griefing then I, for one, will allude to the mechanics put into place to moderate it, mechanics which will be tested and adjusted before the game goes live. If one avers otherwise and suggests that what's being done is not sufficient, and thus is an indication that the developers don't take the problem seriously, I will return, as I did in my post that you quoted, that "there is no 100% grief proof system" and we can only do the best that we can.
We don't know what effect the anti-grief mechanics will have because they obviously have not been tested. But some grief is going to happen and that's divorced from ANYTHING you can do to prevent it. Sometimes, it's just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that's true for any game, PvP or PvE, not just this one, so to see it continually raised because this game incorporates PvP is just...so...much...kibbitzing.
There, I think I added at least a bit more clarity that time.
Also @avanah what gives you the idea that griefers are pennyless kids? For the most part, what most would consider 'griefing' is just a playstyle choice. Rather than focus on building they try to tear down what others have done. There's nothing immature about it. There are also people that behave this way in real world business, who are adults, where you might be able to make ethical arguments. But on a video game? It's a perfectly valid playstyle that many adults might find attractive. It's fun to be the bad guy, and if done with tact, is just as vital to community interaction as cooperative gaming.
But if this kind of interaction bothers you, it begs the question why you'd wanna play a game that highlights it in the first place.
Unless you had some other idea of 'griefing'?
So, you're a griefer?
I have received hate tells from players who felt I was imposing my playstyle on theirs, and it did not compel me to stop what I was doing. I believe from the accepted definition that would qualify me as a griefer.
So you send hate tells?
Why is it hard for you to be a gentleman? Why couldn't you stop?
Not being an ass. These are sincere questions.
My experience is that if I kill/gank someone in the wild I will move on. If that person decides to start sending tells complaining when I have done nothing wrong or outside the rules of the game, then I will usually circle back to them at some point and let them know how their commentary was appreciated in an up close and personal way.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
$5 dollars should never have any bearing on weather you play a game unless you have zero income. The only problem i foresee is that NOBODY really knows the outcome of this game design and may not for a long time yet.
Everyone is making assumptions,i don't like to do that ,the only thing i dwell on is the fact that uncertainties is NEVER good for the gamer,it leaves to many open doors and why i have and never will endorse cash shops or unfair,unequal monetary systems.You will ALWAYS 100% of the time alienate one player over another and that is just not good for gaming.
The problem I see with the execution of this games design is that it assumes the people playing it will engage these game systems like it is a virtual world and not a game. Developers should never presume to know how players will react in any situation or to design. The focus should be on making a solid playable game, and then adjust in a live environment to what they see.
They want uber realism and full pvp and yet expect the soft barriers they put in place will be suficient to deter the player. You either want full pvp or you dont. And if it's supported by mechanics players will use it, a lot. From the way the devs talk they havent even considered the multitude of ways full pvp games can be manipulated. If their interest is in reinventing the wheel my hats off to em. So far they seem to only think theyve reinvented the MMO playerbase.
I don't even presume that people in real life will approach the given systems with any sense of fidelity to their stated purposes, so of course one doesn't expect this in a game. As I've posted before, where a system can be abused there is always someone determined to make it so. That just speaks to human nature. All we can do, as in real life, is to shore up the most glaring avenues for exploitation and make the penalties for abuse steep enough to ward off all but the most determined. But 100% grief proof? Well, that's not going to happen and judging a game based on speculation that it won't be the first to prevent it is rather here nor there kibbitzing.
J
Maybe you need to read the OP, which is the general idea people should be responding to rather than inventing their own arguments and (kibbitzing). The idea proposed by this thread is that this game will eliminate griefing based on the merit of a flimsy proposed design. Now that you're up to speed, you're formally welcomed to the discussion if you have something to add.
My contention is simply that this is a full pvp game and people should approach it as such. There is a lot of naivety in the emotional responses to this proposed game, and many people seem to be forgetting or just don't know what a full pvp game is or the implications of such a design. You either get on board with a kill or be killed mentality, hope they change direction, or steer clear of this one. That is both here and there.
The only good advice to give someone in a full pvp game is to play wisely, and dont rely on arbitrary rulesets to protect you if you play stupid, it won't work. And even if you play smart you're still going to be griefed anyways. The end.
But I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to you. And nothing that you've posted here has negated anything that I posted in the response that you quoted. It wasn't even much of an issue taking with that post, frankly. If I do err, it's in presuming on my own clarity. Let me remedy that:
No one, at least not the developers, and certainly not the informed backers, has illusions about the kinds of people who wander through these games. Mechanics will be put into place that attempt to lessen the incidences of wanton griefing but experience suggests that it will happen. It will happen because people are people and they have a natural creativeness when it comes to destruction that is unequalled. To contend with the game because it hasn't demonstrated a foolproof system for preventing such behavior is kibbitzing because no game has, to date. It's a useless bone of contention. So if a person alleges that this game will not prevent griefing then I, for one, will allude to the mechanics put into place to moderate it, mechanics which will be tested and adjusted before the game goes live. If one avers otherwise and suggests that what's being done is not sufficient, and thus is an indication that the developers don't take the problem seriously, I will return, as I did in my post that you quoted, that "there is no 100% grief proof system" and we can only do the best that we can.
We don't know what effect the anti-grief mechanics will have because they obviously have not been tested. But some grief is going to happen and that's divorced from ANYTHING you can do to prevent it. Sometimes, it's just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that's true for any game, PvP or PvE, not just this one, so to see it continually raised because this game incorporates PvP is just...so...much...kibbitzing.
There, I think I added at least a bit more clarity that time.
J
Nothing you've said in either post has remotely addressed the points I've made much less negated anything. Your only point is no system is 100% full proof, and I think any child can accept that's the way the world works. A lack of clarity wasn't the issue, it's that the point you're parroting should already be accepted by every person on this board, and diving into it is a complete waste of everyones time. Except maybe the OP who has bought into the idea this is some kind of fiscal black magic solution. Or any other person who lets their expectations run wild at the mention of such and such game mechanic. Or maybe the devs and how they believe this won't turn into a free for all bandit fest like every other ffa pvp game.
Were talking about a 30 dollar investment for weeks/months worth of dumping on people. That's about what a pack of cigarettes cost where Im from.
My initial point was that from watching the devs talk they believe the people who play this game will be rpers who are happy leading mundane virtual lives instead of mindlessly killing each other. That everyone will be a good little sport and fill their niche.And if there is a niche even smaller than mmo open world pvpers, it's rpers. Those sorts, few though vocal as they might be, are in for a bad time. How the hell does saying 'well nothing is perfect' even qualify as a response? I never said it had to be a perfect system, I said you make a full pvp game, you get a full pvp game. Classic strawman.
Nope, no idea is full proof, but we are actually here to discuss the merits of the proposd system and the game rather than obvious stuff everyone already knows, or kibbitzing. You keep using that word, I dont think it means what you think it means.
Holdenfive, I'm not even sure how much of any response you're actually reading, and given that you say clarity is not an issue I'll have to ascribe that to willfulness and leave it there.
If you've read any of my other posts with regard to this game, then you'll realize I don't have an interest in trying to convince you. I took the opportunity of your post to make a general statement and I'll do it again: the developers are not naive about the behavior of people in virtual games, and certainly aren't wearing blinders about their own. To the extent that they've developed anti-grief mechanics, that fact is borne out. How successful they will be no one knows because the game isn't even developed yet, let alone has there been opportunity to put these mechanics into place. But no matter what they do, some griefing will get through because there...is...no...perfect...system. And that's not a strawman, that's me pointing out that the developers could strive for perfection, all to please Holdenfive, and it would still likely end in some frustration because people are creative, no less so than when doing mischief. So to beat on a point that's neither here nor there because it's typical of all games and the bane of many is, as I wrote, kibbitzing.
And if I didn't get the point across that time, then my posts still remain and you can read them at your leisure until you come to some understanding. Because that same quality of virtual persistence means I can say that I'm done here with no injury to the cause of a good faith effort at - clarity! Yes, I had to get that in...
Also @avanah what gives you the idea that griefers are pennyless kids? For the most part, what most would consider 'griefing' is just a playstyle choice. Rather than focus on building they try to tear down what others have done. There's nothing immature about it. There are also people that behave this way in real world business, who are adults, where you might be able to make ethical arguments. But on a video game? It's a perfectly valid playstyle that many adults might find attractive. It's fun to be the bad guy, and if done with tact, is just as vital to community interaction as cooperative gaming.
But if this kind of interaction bothers you, it begs the question why you'd wanna play a game that highlights it in the first place.
Unless you had some other idea of 'griefing'?
So, you're a griefer?
I have received hate tells from players who felt I was imposing my playstyle on theirs, and it did not compel me to stop what I was doing. I believe from the accepted definition that would qualify me as a griefer.
So you send hate tells?
Why is it hard for you to be a gentleman? Why couldn't you stop?
Not being an ass. These are sincere questions.
My experience is that if I kill/gank someone in the wild I will move on. If that person decides to start sending tells complaining when I have done nothing wrong or outside the rules of the game, then I will usually circle back to them at some point and let them know how their commentary was appreciated in an up close and personal way.
I've done similar. Often ending it with a "if you stop whining, I'll stop coming back every hour or two"
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CoE is being marketed as a survival game. People, you would hope, go into these things with the knowledge that their character is going to get killed at some stage. It always happens in survival games, that's the nature of the beast. Towns and cities will be a lot safer than being out in the wilds but nowhere is completely safe.
I think there are too many people who see roleplayers as carebears (I hate that word but people seem to understand and use it). You'll never eliminate griefers while humans are free to do what they please but don't underestimate the role players, they can be just as aggressive as anyone else when someone tries to spoil their fun.
lunawisp was my peacebringer in City of Heroes. She lives on, in memory, as my gaming id
Yeah I am thinking Bloodfeuds between rival noble houses. Where someone kills a random player and this gets the entire kingdom to stage a full scale war/invasion against the attacker. RP'ers will soak that stuff up and it will be the point of their game...nothing like revenge as a motivation to get into a good bit of RP.
I've done similar. Often ending it with a "if you stop whining, I'll stop coming back every hour or two"
In other words, "let me have my fun if you don't like it stfu about it or it will happen over and over and over" You two do realize that is cyberbullying?
Take the cyber out of that and whatcha got? You got maygus waltzing around town beating people up and taking their stuff, if they say anything, he comes back and does it again and again. But because it's online it's no big deal?
And because it's a game? You can do whatever and just say, "but dude it's a game?"
Me, I just stand there or if the game has good dance emotes I dance away. It's amazing to watch how long it take for those guys to even get a clue that I am not actually pvping with them.
And your chess analogy isn't even close to the same galaxy.
Didn't say it wasn't. I completely agree, if you don't like PvP then don't play games that are PvP based, that seems simple.
It is bullying if you outclass someone and you know it, but you want them to do nothing but be meek and submissive to you. When you need to justify your actions or refer to the ambiguity of the ToS....
Personally I dislike level based PvP games. It encourages childish antics. How the whole 'skill' system will be working in CoE, only time will tell.
Umm it's a game. If we were playing chess would it be bullying to take your pieces?
PKing is part of the game. If someone is going to get upset when their pixels die they should not play a PvP game.
This his how we'd expect a normal person with normal expectations to think.
Unfortunately this is not what we're dealing with during this back and forth.
There's a large segment of folks with victim behavior disorder that will inject themselves into a game or platform that they shouldn't involve themselves in, just to complain about it. It is a phenomenon.
There's literally a big red sign that says "OWPVP" on many titles and time and time again they throw themselves on the floor and yell "woe is me" about OWPVP. How can you make folks like this happy when their happiness depends on being miserable?
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
"Umm it's a game. If we were playing chess would it be bullying to take your pieces?"
No but knocking my pieces over when I ask you to play the game and you do it again...yeah that isn't playing the game. Arguing that the designer of the game should have thought about how to stop another player knocking over the pieces doesn't stop the player doing it from being a douche.
"PKing is part of the game. If someone is going to get upset when their pixels die they should not play a PvP game. "
There is a difference between playing the game and outright abusing the system/rules though. Think a game of Rugby where you can absolutely flatten an opposing player in a tackle but if you spear tackle the guy....bad player, bad sportsman.
But as with any competitive scenario you WILL have bad players and bad sportsmen. The idea on any system or set of rules is to make the game fun for the majority of players while weeding out the bad players.
Umm it's a game. If we were playing chess would it be bullying to take your pieces?
PKing is part of the game. If someone is going to get upset when their pixels die they should not play a PvP game.
This his how we'd expect a normal person with normal expectations to think.
Unfortunately this is not what we're dealing with during this back and forth.
There's a large segment of folks with victim behavior disorder that will inject themselves into a game or platform that they shouldn't involve themselves in, just to complain about it. It is a phenomenon.
There's literally a big red sign that says "OWPVP" on many titles and time and time again they throw themselves on the floor and yell "woe is me" about OWPVP. How can you make folks like this happy when their happiness depends on being miserable?
Totally agree.
That's not to say that a portion of the folks in an OWPVP game are not there just to cause trouble... some are... but it's a really small minority and there are lots of in game mechanics that usually let you deal with them.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It is bullying if you outclass someone and you know it, but you want them to do nothing but be meek and submissive to you. When you need to justify your actions or refer to the ambiguity of the ToS....
Personally I dislike level based PvP games. It encourages childish antics. How the whole 'skill' system will be working in CoE, only time will tell.
I have to agree about levels in PvP games. Level-based power gaps and PvP just simply don't go together very well, in most cases.
Speaking of that and bullying, I can admit to screwing with people way below my level/power. But, I generally avoid killing people who can't fight back(assuming it's not a siege or something). As an example, some 'lowbie' trying to run past me real quick and hoping I didn't notice them, so I cast some type of minor spell on them like a root/stun/debuff, etc., just to say "Hello."
I, personally, just get no enjoyment out of destroying someone who isn't a challenge(helpless). It's just pointless. Some people like to be challenged in PvP... others don't.
So with that said, no matter what happens with the 'skill' system, there will always be griefers and bullying. It's a fact of life in every multiplayer game. Yes, that includes non-PvP ones.
It's just simply unavoidable. The griefers will be there; chilidish antics will be there; PvE players who hate PvP will be there(who knows why?) calling all PvP 'griefing', whether it is or not.
It doesn't matter if they have the perfect rules in place or not. "Life finds a way."
That's not to say that a portion of the folks in an OWPVP game are not there just to cause trouble... some are... but it's a really small minority and there are lots of in game mechanics that usually let you deal with them.
Right! That's the job of the developer in this case, to create OWPVP rulesets that protect the game ecosystem without hindering player generated conflict.
These other victim personality folks seem to have a desire to find every single game that has OWPVP and whine it into some themepark utopia. For the life of me I can't understand why.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Umm it's a game. If we were playing chess would it be bullying to take your pieces?
PKing is part of the game. If someone is going to get upset when their pixels die they should not play a PvP game.
This his how we'd expect a normal person with normal expectations to think.
Unfortunately this is not what we're dealing with during this back and forth.
There's a large segment of folks with victim behavior disorder that will inject themselves into a game or platform that they shouldn't involve themselves in, just to complain about it. It is a phenomenon.
There's literally a big red sign that says "OWPVP" on many titles and time and time again they throw themselves on the floor and yell "woe is me" about OWPVP. How can you make folks like this happy when their happiness depends on being miserable?
This is exactly what I've been saying. If it does turn out to be open world pvp and they dont change direction or tank, I would beshocked to find more than 1 person on this thread who plays the game more than 12 hours. This thread speaks for itself.
Holdenfive, I'm not even sure how much of any response you're actually reading, and given that you say clarity is not an issue I'll have to ascribe that to willfulness and leave it there.
If you've read any of my other posts with regard to this game, then you'll realize I don't have an interest in trying to convince you. I took the opportunity of your post to make a general statement and I'll do it again: the developers are not naive about the behavior of people in virtual games, and certainly aren't wearing blinders about their own. To the extent that they've developed anti-grief mechanics, that fact is borne out. How successful they will be no one knows because the game isn't even developed yet, let alone has there been opportunity to put these mechanics into place. But no matter what they do, some griefing will get through because there...is...no...perfect...system. And that's not a strawman, that's me pointing out that the developers could strive for perfection, all to please Holdenfive, and it would still likely end in some frustration because people are creative, no less so than when doing mischief. So to beat on a point that's neither here nor there because it's typical of all games and the bane of many is, as I wrote, kibbitzing.
And if I didn't get the point across that time, then my posts still remain and you can read them at your leisure until you come to some understanding. Because that same quality of virtual persistence means I can say that I'm done here with no injury to the cause of a good faith effort at - clarity! Yes, I had to get that in...
J
You took the opportunity to tell us there is no perfect system. Water is also wet. You dont start a land war in Asia. Etc.
Why would they develop a perfect system to please me? I never said I wanted one or said it was possible. That effort would be about as poorly directed and irrelevant as your posts are. The point you're arguing against was never referenced much less beat on.
As I already said, the issue is not understanding. The issue is you've created a strawman and even when that is illustated for you and exposed, you type the same post you just made. So despie the fact all your posts are still there one need only read one, they all say the same thing. I invited you several posts ago to add something to the discussion if you saw fit, were still awaiting your response.
Comments
Ganking = No Context
Griefing = No Context + Insults & Trolling
If you are from a rival Kingdom, are acting as an assassin of your King to retrieve gold from houses near the border to help fund skirmishers, and break into my house to steal my gold then it's all good. The tension of that danger enhances the world as a place of risk and adventure.
As I said the term is so vague and interchangeable. How is this game system going to deter griefing by your or my own definition? It wont. Killing someone in a pvp game is not griefing. This is a RP immersion system with a price tag, and to a lesser extent meant to deter zerging. But griefing? Its not even related. If its an open world pvp game and your humble noncombat baker gets killed by CartmanLives2016 the famous douchebag assassin its your fault for plaing this kinda game. The bounty system is just flavour.
Im a reasonable man, which is much more than I can say for your average mmo player.
But I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to you. And nothing that you've posted here has negated anything that I posted in the response that you quoted. It wasn't even much of an issue taking with that post, frankly. If I do err, it's in presuming on my own clarity. Let me remedy that:
No one, at least not the developers, and certainly not the informed backers, has illusions about the kinds of people who wander through these games. Mechanics will be put into place that attempt to lessen the incidences of wanton griefing but experience suggests that it will happen. It will happen because people are people and they have a natural creativeness when it comes to destruction that is unequalled. To contend with the game because it hasn't demonstrated a foolproof system for preventing such behavior is kibbitzing because no game has, to date. It's a useless bone of contention. So if a person alleges that this game will not prevent griefing then I, for one, will allude to the mechanics put into place to moderate it, mechanics which will be tested and adjusted before the game goes live. If one avers otherwise and suggests that what's being done is not sufficient, and thus is an indication that the developers don't take the problem seriously, I will return, as I did in my post that you quoted, that "there is no 100% grief proof system" and we can only do the best that we can.
We don't know what effect the anti-grief mechanics will have because they obviously have not been tested. But some grief is going to happen and that's divorced from ANYTHING you can do to prevent it. Sometimes, it's just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that's true for any game, PvP or PvE, not just this one, so to see it continually raised because this game incorporates PvP is just...so...much...kibbitzing.
There, I think I added at least a bit more clarity that time.
J
Some people play the game.
Some cheat because they have to in an attempt to stay competitive.
No matter your reason, if you are looking for ways to get around any griefing mechanics....you are cheating.
Cheaters are the bane of online games.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Were talking about a 30 dollar investment for weeks/months worth of dumping on people. That's about what a pack of cigarettes cost where Im from.
My initial point was that from watching the devs talk they believe the people who play this game will be rpers who are happy leading mundane virtual lives instead of mindlessly killing each other.
That everyone will be a good little sport and fill their niche.And if there is a niche even smaller than mmo open world pvpers, it's rpers. Those sorts, few though vocal as they might be, are in for a bad time. How the hell does saying 'well nothing is perfect' even qualify as a response? I never said it had to be a perfect system, I said you make a full pvp game, you get a full pvp game. Classic strawman.
Nope, no idea is full proof, but we are actually here to discuss the merits of the proposd system and the game rather than obvious stuff everyone already knows, or kibbitzing. You keep using that word, I dont think it means what you think it means.
If you've read any of my other posts with regard to this game, then you'll realize I don't have an interest in trying to convince you. I took the opportunity of your post to make a general statement and I'll do it again: the developers are not naive about the behavior of people in virtual games, and certainly aren't wearing blinders about their own. To the extent that they've developed anti-grief mechanics, that fact is borne out. How successful they will be no one knows because the game isn't even developed yet, let alone has there been opportunity to put these mechanics into place. But no matter what they do, some griefing will get through because there...is...no...perfect...system. And that's not a strawman, that's me pointing out that the developers could strive for perfection, all to please Holdenfive, and it would still likely end in some frustration because people are creative, no less so than when doing mischief. So to beat on a point that's neither here nor there because it's typical of all games and the bane of many is, as I wrote, kibbitzing.
And if I didn't get the point across that time, then my posts still remain and you can read them at your leisure until you come to some understanding. Because that same quality of virtual persistence means I can say that I'm done here with no injury to the cause of a good faith effort at - clarity! Yes, I had to get that in...
J
Sorry if it got out of hand everyone.
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I think there are too many people who see roleplayers as carebears (I hate that word but people seem to understand and use it). You'll never eliminate griefers while humans are free to do what they please but don't underestimate the role players, they can be just as aggressive as anyone else when someone tries to spoil their fun.
Take the cyber out of that and whatcha got?
You got maygus waltzing around town beating people up and taking their stuff, if they say anything, he comes back and does it again and again.
But because it's online it's no big deal?
PKing is part of the game. If someone is going to get upset when their pixels die they should not play a PvP game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Me, I just stand there or if the game has good dance emotes I dance away. It's amazing to watch how long it take for those guys to even get a clue that I am not actually pvping with them.
And your chess analogy isn't even close to the same galaxy.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I completely agree, if you don't like PvP then don't play games that are PvP based, that seems simple.
It is bullying if you outclass someone and you know it, but you want them to do nothing but be meek and submissive to you.
When you need to justify your actions or refer to the ambiguity of the ToS....
Personally I dislike level based PvP games. It encourages childish antics. How the whole 'skill' system will be working in CoE, only time will tell.
Unfortunately this is not what we're dealing with during this back and forth.
There's a large segment of folks with victim behavior disorder that will inject themselves into a game or platform that they shouldn't involve themselves in, just to complain about it. It is a phenomenon.
There's literally a big red sign that says "OWPVP" on many titles and time and time again they throw themselves on the floor and yell "woe is me" about OWPVP. How can you make folks like this happy when their happiness depends on being miserable?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"Umm it's a game. If we were playing chess would it be bullying to take your pieces?"
No but knocking my pieces over when I ask you to play the game and you do it again...yeah that isn't playing the game. Arguing that the designer of the game should have thought about how to stop another player knocking over the pieces doesn't stop the player doing it from being a douche.
"PKing is part of the game. If someone is going to get upset when their pixels die they should not play a PvP game. "
There is a difference between playing the game and outright abusing the system/rules though. Think a game of Rugby where you can absolutely flatten an opposing player in a tackle but if you spear tackle the guy....bad player, bad sportsman.
But as with any competitive scenario you WILL have bad players and bad sportsmen. The idea on any system or set of rules is to make the game fun for the majority of players while weeding out the bad players.
That's not to say that a portion of the folks in an OWPVP game are not there just to cause trouble... some are... but it's a really small minority and there are lots of in game mechanics that usually let you deal with them.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Speaking of that and bullying, I can admit to screwing with people way below my level/power. But, I generally avoid killing people who can't fight back(assuming it's not a siege or something).
As an example, some 'lowbie' trying to run past me real quick and hoping I didn't notice them, so I cast some type of minor spell on them like a root/stun/debuff, etc., just to say "Hello."
I, personally, just get no enjoyment out of destroying someone who isn't a challenge(helpless). It's just pointless. Some people like to be challenged in PvP... others don't.
So with that said, no matter what happens with the 'skill' system, there will always be griefers and bullying. It's a fact of life in every multiplayer game. Yes, that includes non-PvP ones.
It's just simply unavoidable. The griefers will be there; chilidish antics will be there; PvE players who hate PvP will be there(who knows why?) calling all PvP 'griefing', whether it is or not.
It doesn't matter if they have the perfect rules in place or not. "Life finds a way."
These other victim personality folks seem to have a desire to find every single game that has OWPVP and whine it into some themepark utopia. For the life of me I can't understand why.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Why would they develop a perfect system to please me? I never said I wanted one or said it was possible. That effort would be about as poorly directed and irrelevant as your posts are. The point you're arguing against was never referenced much less beat on.
As I already said, the issue is not understanding. The issue is you've created a strawman and even when that is illustated for you and exposed, you type the same post you just made. So despie the fact all your posts are still there one need only read one, they all say the same thing. I invited you several posts ago to add something to the discussion if you saw fit, were still awaiting your response.