This game is sounding more and more like a collection of ideas that sound great on paper, but will crash and burn when brought against the cold, harsh reality of human behavior.
Give griefers an inch, and they will take a mile. The last sandbox game I remember where permadeath was in place was Salem, and for those who need a refresher course on how that game turned out, allow me to enlighten you:
I played Salem, I was in beta and I was with a gaming group that got deep into it, and every one of my friends was murdered. It was truly a terrifying game to play and I agree it devolved into chaos to the point of having a community even more toxic than what Darkfall became.
But Salem made mistakes that CoE has solved:
-Salem was all-or-nothing permadeath. If you were defeated in combat once, you could be murdered and lose everything immediately. CoE has graduated permadeath over time.
-Salem had no inheritance system. In CoE, you can still theoretically lose an entire town, but those are rare, game-world changing events, and inheritance will mitigate your personal loss of resources as a player
-Salem had no headstart - Boston was the only safezone and players did not run it. CoE is providing a headstart to seed the world with an installed king and kingdom, and a civilization that will provide an anchor for stability against the chaos Salem devolved into.
-Salem had no soul system: You spent weeks grinding through EVE-like timers on skills, and if you died, all your progress was gone. In CoE, skill ramps facilitate a return to what you had
-Salem had no spirit-loss for crime: If you murdered someone, and no one got around to tracking your clues down and bringing you to justice, it was as if you never murdered anyone. In CoE, you will carry the potential spirit-loss of a murderer even if you aren't found, and when you eventually get ganked, you will suffer a heavier loss of game time for your crimes.
-Salem PVP was heavily stat/grind based: You jacked yourself up on foods that permanently boosted your stats until you were a tireless God that no new player could ever hope to kill. In CoE, player skill matters more than stats, and a good player in a new character will beat a bad player in a seasoned character.
Bugs, exploits, DDoS attacks, power outages, lag, server downtime, internet hiccups, etc. are all realities that any MMOG has to face, and any one of these could get a player killed, and there's nothing the player can do about it. $30 gone due to a random act of god.
This bolded part here makes me think you don't understand a lot about this game besides "permadeath".
No one single random occurrence will ever cause a player more than a single loss of spirit or game time. The worst that will happen is they ganked once and their character ends up hanging out in the astral plane until they log back in.
It was mentioned in a q and a I believe, and it was said that those npc's that would coup de gras would be intellegent enough not to follow a player half way across the continent
This game is sounding more and more like a collection of ideas that sound great on paper, but will crash and burn when brought against the cold, harsh reality of human behavior.
Give griefers an inch, and they will take a mile. The last sandbox game I remember where permadeath was in place was Salem, and for those who need a refresher course on how that game turned out, allow me to enlighten you:
Dev and GM abuse aside, look at the parts about how the community is in general. "Safe Zones" under siege 24/7, entire guilds dedicated to making the lives of other players miserable for the lulz, and all around toxic behavior in general. That's the kind of community a permadeath game breeds. Trying to mitigate the power of players to do these things by drawing out permadeath over time isn't going to change that. In fact, the system as they are proposing is arguably even worse, since not only can griefers cost you time, but every time they kill you they are actually decreasing the monetary value of the game for you as a player.
This is assuming, of course, that the game works as intended 100% of the time, which as everyone here knows is NEVER the case. Bugs, exploits, DDoS attacks, power outages, lag, server downtime, internet hiccups, etc. are all realities that any MMOG has to face, and any one of these could get a player killed, and there's nothing the player can do about it. $30 gone due to a random act of god. That's why not only permadeath, but harsh death penalties in general have been phased out of MMOGs.
History has shown time and time again that, no matter how you cook it, permadeath in MMOGs is a recipie for disaster.
I'm going to say it here and now, and you can quote me on this:
This game is either going to be very different on launch compared to what's being proposed, or it's going to launch as proposed and devolve into chaos within a few months. Assuming the game launches at all.
If I'm wrong, you can mock me all you want down the line for being wrong. I can own up to that.
But if I'm right, and I have full confidence that I will be, let this be a preemptive "I told you so" to all the fanboys about to go off on me.
I read one of those posts and really we all could throw random games like this around. Could we please keep it to gsmes like CoE.
1)CoE developers have already stated if they play it will be under the same conditions as players. ( now I know we have no proof of this yet...)
2) Perma death sounds alot different on Salem
3) No cash shop will be on CoE
4) Punishment for random ganking on CoE
5) no just no the games are not similar in the slightest. The only things close are the perma deaths and even they are different.
So again please keep the games you want to compare relative to the game.
I'm going to say it here and now, and you can quote me on this:
This game is either going to be very different on launch compared to what's being proposed, or it's going to launch as proposed and devolve into chaos within a few months. Assuming the game launches at all.
Of course it will. Organised chaos is what the development team are looking for, once everything has had a chance to settle in the no-nonconcensual-pvp period at the start of exposition. They're said as much. In fact, Caspion confirmed that they can take steps to encourage players to carry out 'legal' attacks on other kingdoms and such things.
That's the sort of game this is. It's not for everyone, but bashing it because you haven't bothered to read up on the details is...well, I'll leave that for others to say.
lunawisp was my peacebringer in City of Heroes. She lives on, in memory, as my gaming id
What punishment? It's all the same whether you gank people or not.
So your character stays in when you log, big deal. Someone comes and kills you, you go do the same to them.
The thing to remember is that PKers organize. They live for the kill, and love tactics. So it'll all boil down to them vs. the rest. And since they are organized as well as possible exactly for "the win", while other players won't be as dedicated to just that "win", they will usually overcome opponents in the short run, and always in the long run.
These games never change. They are all the same in this. They want to foster PvP and never want to really give out punishment to rampant PKers because those "PvPers" are the players they are making the game for.
Don't get me wrong. I understand the game world they want. But stop this nonsense that the game will be enjoyable for players that aren't all out PvPers intending eternal war and constant bushwhacking.
What punishment? It's all the same whether you gank people or not.
So your character stays in when you log, big deal. Someone comes and kills you, you go do the same to them.
The thing to remember is that PKers organize. They live for the kill, and love tactics. So it'll all boil down to them vs. the rest. And since they are organized as well as possible exactly for "the win", while other players won't be as dedicated to just that "win", they will usually overcome opponents in the short run, and always in the long run.
These games never change. They are all the same in this. They want to foster PvP and never want to really give out punishment to rampant PKers because those "PvPers" are the players they are making the game for.
Don't get me wrong. I understand the game world they want. But stop this nonsense that the game will be enjoyable for players that aren't all out PvPers intending eternal war and constant bushwhacking.
Please actually read up on the game. It's been stated on these forums, the CoE forums, the q&a's and the ks comments. There is punishments for ganking.
What punishment? It's all the same whether you gank people or not.
So your character stays in when you log, big deal. Someone comes and kills you, you go do the same to them.
The thing to remember is that PKers organize. They live for the kill, and love tactics. So it'll all boil down to them vs. the rest. And since they are organized as well as possible exactly for "the win", while other players won't be as dedicated to just that "win", they will usually overcome opponents in the short run, and always in the long run.
These games never change. They are all the same in this. They want to foster PvP and never want to really give out punishment to rampant PKers because those "PvPers" are the players they are making the game for.
Don't get me wrong. I understand the game world they want. But stop this nonsense that the game will be enjoyable for players that aren't all out PvPers intending eternal war and constant bushwhacking.
Please actually read up on the game. It's been stated on these forums, the CoE forums, the q&a's and the ks comments. There is punishments for ganking.
I've been reading and I'm not seeing any. What are they?
I've been reading and I'm not seeing any. What are they?
(Besides empty promises.)
Knocking someone out (like real life) is a crime, and a kingdom can sentence you some amount of spirit loss for it through the prison system.
Murdering someone (CDG) is a much heavier crime, and you will suffer more potential spirit loss on your next death than that suffered by the player you murdered. A kingdom could additionally sentence you with a much higher spirit loss for that crime than just knocking them out.
I've been reading and I'm not seeing any. What are they?
(Besides empty promises.)
Knocking someone out (like real life) is a crime, and a kingdom can sentence you some amount of spirit loss for it through the prison system.
Murdering someone (CDG) is a much heavier crime, and you will suffer more potential spirit loss on your next death than that suffered by the player you murdered. A kingdom could additionally sentence you with a much higher spirit loss for that crime than just knocking them out.
Where do the Devs say that? I started this thread specifically looking for that sort of thing. No one has pointed this out but instead has shown proof that there is no additional Spirit loss due to bad karma or anything of the nature. I've read their site over looking for this too, but haven't found anything on it. But I'm aware that maybe I just missed it, so I asked. But all I see are assumptions, basically, from what I can tell.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected. I don't want empty promises though. They usually come from statements made vaguely enough that people start making assumptions. I'd like to see a direct spelling out of how it works. Not just, "you'll pay for that" sort of comments.
There are no punishments harsh enough to deter gank squads. I remember the LiF guys claiming that their system would stop griefers and gankers. Not hardly didnt slow them down one bit. At best they would stop for a day or so to build up notoriety again if they didnt want to go full criminal but if they did go full criminal then it didnt matter and they basically banded together and ruined whole servers.
Then when the developers made the optional free for all grief mode and servers had them these guys would all try and get on those servers and just destroy anything and everything they could.
People completely underestimate the hard core people who just live to ruin games for people. After the first whatever weeks of this game and it becomes free for all you will see it and it wont be pretty. But by then it will be too late and the usual excuses and reasons will pour in from these gys about how its too late to change now(which will be then). Thats why guys that actually want to see a game that is playable are being critical now.
LiF used to have maybe 20-30K people playing it, it was a game people could get behind it had it all, but once they realized the safeguards were just not there it crashed, I doubt more than 1500 people play in now on a regular basis. Thats quite a drop in 4 or 5 months.
Like I said these guys have PLENTY of cautionary tales to look at and rethink their mechanics, if they dont then its no ones fault but their own when the game crashes and burns. Which means it will just be added to the list of good games with plenty of nice ideas that suffered from developer stupidity or shortsightedness.
Amaranthar it's explained in the q&a's not sure which one but there is transcripts. I can't paste the link off my phone but if you go to the coe forums and in genealogy discussions there is the q&a's transcripts.
Amaranthar it's explained in the q&a's not sure which one but there is transcripts. I can't paste the link off my phone but if you go to the coe forums and in genealogy discussions there is the q&a's transcripts.
Not sure which one it is though sorry.
Questions and answers can be taken in many ways. Why don't they put it in writing on their site?
All I see is:
Q. Griefers. Tell me you've at least eliminated the griefers!
Actually, more or less. In
Chronicles of Elyria, crimes such as attacking other characters is
punishable by time in prison. The more time someone spends in prison,
the shorter their playable lifespan, the more their skills atrophy, and
the less powerful they will ultimately become. So, we've kind of removed
most the incentive around griefing.
And now it seems they have done away with prison, I guess.
I've seen all this before in all (every one of them) PvP Sandbox MMO's. They clearly leave the whole thing about "Justice" undefined. That shows they really aren't into defining it. One of the biggest reasons gamers don't play Sandbox games (if not THE biggest), and they can't give it enough time to explain a working system.
Because that's not what they are going to do. The rest is just double talk.
Where do the Devs say that? I started this thread specifically looking for that sort of thing. No one has pointed this out but instead has shown proof that there is no additional Spirit loss due to bad karma or anything of the nature. I've read their site over looking for this too, but haven't found anything on it. But I'm aware that maybe I just missed it, so I asked. But all I see are assumptions, basically, from what I can tell.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected. I don't want empty promises though. They usually come from statements made vaguely enough that people start making assumptions. I'd like to see a direct spelling out of how it works. Not just, "you'll pay for that" sort of comments.
The way it works is, that whenever you commit a crime (murder someone for example) you can be caught afterwards, then the victim can report your crime. When you are caught, you receive a sentence, which can be numerous things, imprisonment, payment, or potentially "death" (you get killed once, for a higher spiritloss then normal, the exact number depending on numerous factors, among these the laws in place of the country in question)
Where do the Devs say that? I started this thread specifically looking for that sort of thing. No one has pointed this out but instead has shown proof that there is no additional Spirit loss due to bad karma or anything of the nature. I've read their site over looking for this too, but haven't found anything on it. But I'm aware that maybe I just missed it, so I asked. But all I see are assumptions, basically, from what I can tell.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected. I don't want empty promises though. They usually come from statements made vaguely enough that people start making assumptions. I'd like to see a direct spelling out of how it works. Not just, "you'll pay for that" sort of comments.
This is from a Q&A with BW and Caspian:
BW: "Zynlli’s final question “Will spirit loss be limited during certain activities to ensure that they remain, such as fighting in an arena? or will bloodsport severely damage the spirit of that player when they lose?”
Caspian: So fighting in an arena there are no coup de gras, so if you’re actually in an arena it’s just incapacitation. No spirit loss what-so-ever, similar to dueling, in those cases you’re not actually trying to kill someone, it’s just there for sport and entertainment. So it’s just player versus player and it’s just sport, so in those cases it’s not necessarily to actually kill someone in order to prove your dominance."
The implication here is that simply by virtue of murdering someone, you suffer potential spirit loss (but if all you do is knock them out, you will not). This attaches a real-world consequence to murdering, and trying to grief through mass-murder will become extremely risky.
Where do the Devs say that? I started this thread specifically looking for that sort of thing. No one has pointed this out but instead has shown proof that there is no additional Spirit loss due to bad karma or anything of the nature. I've read their site over looking for this too, but haven't found anything on it. But I'm aware that maybe I just missed it, so I asked. But all I see are assumptions, basically, from what I can tell.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected. I don't want empty promises though. They usually come from statements made vaguely enough that people start making assumptions. I'd like to see a direct spelling out of how it works. Not just, "you'll pay for that" sort of comments.
This is from a Q&A with BW and Caspian:
BW: "Zynlli’s final question “Will spirit loss be limited during certain activities to ensure that they remain, such as fighting in an arena? or will bloodsport severely damage the spirit of that player when they lose?”
Caspian: So fighting in an arena there are no coup de gras, so if you’re actually in an arena it’s just incapacitation. No spirit loss what-so-ever, similar to dueling, in those cases you’re not actually trying to kill someone, it’s just there for sport and entertainment. So it’s just player versus player and it’s just sport, so in those cases it’s not necessarily to actually kill someone in order to prove your dominance."
The implication here is that simply by virtue of murdering someone, you suffer potential spirit loss (but if all you do is knock them out, you will not). This attaches a real-world consequence to murdering, and trying to grief through mass-murder will become extremely risky.
How so? I'd like to see some details of how this works.
What's to keep griefers from making nightly runs on other players, killing them while they are in AI mode, looting them for whatever they can, and doing whatever mischief they can do too?
What, other players are going to kill them more than they can kill those players?
How so? I'd like to see some details of how this works.
What's to keep griefers from making nightly runs on other players, killing them while they are in AI mode, looting them for whatever they can, and doing whatever mischief they can do too?
What, other players are going to kill them more than they can kill those players?
I have a feeling there is nothing I can post or cite that will end your questions or assuage your fears at this time.
It might just be a matter of knob-turning with spirit loss being "x amount" heavier for murderers upon their death, compared to spirit loss of the victims murdered. As such, we won't know the exact details you want until alpha or beta starts and we really start to play out those scenarios.
I can tell you that griefers who get tracked back to their base won't have a base for very long; if they've upset enough nations with standing armies these griefers wont have anything for their children to inherit once these armies are through with them.
Less not forget Killing is a crime. Crimes are punishable by Spirit Loss. The more Killing you do, the less game time you have. So if you are rich and want to Kill everything in sight and pay $30 every other month to do so, I guess you can. But for the average player, a real world financial penalty for killing usually will deter constant, meaningless ganking or at least that is the plan.
Less not forget Killing is a crime. Crimes are punishable by Spirit Loss. The more Killing you do, the less game time you have. So if you are rich and want to Kill everything in sight and pay $30 every other month to do so, I guess you can. But for the average player, a real world financial penalty for killing usually will deter constant, meaningless ganking or at least that is the plan.
We keep hearing it is a crime, that is pretty obvious, but if you DONT get caught what happens? Is the spirit loss immediate or do you need to actually be convicted? Seems to me it would have to rely on a conviction because then it would start to be a double penalty. So if thats the case guys could kill for months and never lose anything as long as they dont get caught. But it works the same way for them I would hope as in theyre offline and they get found and then turned in offline.
But either way I dont think the penalties are going to scare people from going on offline killing sprees. Even if they get 'only' 3 months thats still 10 bucks per month (less if they buy now for 25), and maybe even free depending on how you can get them in game.
I know they also claim skill loss but they also have that in life is feudal and it inst nearly enough to slow people down even after a few dozen kills and skill gain is not all that hard, which I would assume this game would be similar.
Less not forget Killing is a crime. Crimes are punishable by Spirit Loss. The more Killing you do, the less game time you have. So if you are rich and want to Kill everything in sight and pay $30 every other month to do so, I guess you can. But for the average player, a real world financial penalty for killing usually will deter constant, meaningless ganking or at least that is the plan.
We keep hearing it is a crime, that is pretty obvious, but if you DONT get caught what happens? Is the spirit loss immediate or do you need to actually be convicted? Seems to me it would have to rely on a conviction because then it would start to be a double penalty. So if thats the case guys could kill for months and never lose anything as long as they dont get caught. But it works the same way for them I would hope as in theyre offline and they get found and then turned in offline.
But either way I dont think the penalties are going to scare people from going on offline killing sprees. Even if they get 'only' 3 months thats still 10 bucks per month (less if they buy now for 25), and maybe even free depending on how you can get them in game.
I know they also claim skill loss but they also have that in life is feudal and it inst nearly enough to slow people down even after a few dozen kills and skill gain is not all that hard, which I would assume this game would be similar.
Where do they get their supplies for 3 months?
When their base is burned to the ground, who funds their pillaging? Who replaces their gear?
What do they have after 3 months to give their children when everything they've stolen has been stolen back by the armies that crushed them?
Less not forget Killing is a crime. Crimes are punishable by Spirit Loss. The more Killing you do, the less game time you have. So if you are rich and want to Kill everything in sight and pay $30 every other month to do so, I guess you can. But for the average player, a real world financial penalty for killing usually will deter constant, meaningless ganking or at least that is the plan.
We keep hearing it is a crime, that is pretty obvious, but if you DONT get caught what happens? Is the spirit loss immediate or do you need to actually be convicted? Seems to me it would have to rely on a conviction because then it would start to be a double penalty. So if thats the case guys could kill for months and never lose anything as long as they dont get caught. But it works the same way for them I would hope as in theyre offline and they get found and then turned in offline.
But either way I dont think the penalties are going to scare people from going on offline killing sprees. Even if they get 'only' 3 months thats still 10 bucks per month (less if they buy now for 25), and maybe even free depending on how you can get them in game.
I know they also claim skill loss but they also have that in life is feudal and it inst nearly enough to slow people down even after a few dozen kills and skill gain is not all that hard, which I would assume this game would be similar.
Where do they get their supplies for 3 months?
When their base is burned to the ground, who funds their pillaging? Who replaces their gear?
What do they have after 3 months to give their children when everything they've stolen has been stolen back by the armies that crushed them?
An alt or accomplice that they trust who doesn't do murder sprees can easily keep them in gear and food or whatnot.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Less not forget Killing is a crime. Crimes are punishable by Spirit Loss. The more Killing you do, the less game time you have. So if you are rich and want to Kill everything in sight and pay $30 every other month to do so, I guess you can. But for the average player, a real world financial penalty for killing usually will deter constant, meaningless ganking or at least that is the plan.
We keep hearing it is a crime, that is pretty obvious, but if you DONT get caught what happens? Is the spirit loss immediate or do you need to actually be convicted? Seems to me it would have to rely on a conviction because then it would start to be a double penalty. So if thats the case guys could kill for months and never lose anything as long as they dont get caught. But it works the same way for them I would hope as in theyre offline and they get found and then turned in offline.
But either way I dont think the penalties are going to scare people from going on offline killing sprees. Even if they get 'only' 3 months thats still 10 bucks per month (less if they buy now for 25), and maybe even free depending on how you can get them in game.
I know they also claim skill loss but they also have that in life is feudal and it inst nearly enough to slow people down even after a few dozen kills and skill gain is not all that hard, which I would assume this game would be similar.
Where do they get their supplies for 3 months?
When their base is burned to the ground, who funds their pillaging? Who replaces their gear?
What do they have after 3 months to give their children when everything they've stolen has been stolen back by the armies that crushed them?
An alt or accomplice that they trust who doesn't do murder sprees can easily keep them in gear and food or whatnot.
That answers how its transported, not how its paid for.
They need to commit time and resources into building "normal" lives, through civilized means of trading or crafting, something above the board to keep their "blue" alt financed so that they can in-turn finance their "red" character.
This requires actual time and effort all on its own. And by doing that, they are no longer just griefers, they are playing the game.
Less not forget Killing is a crime. Crimes are punishable by Spirit Loss. The more Killing you do, the less game time you have. So if you are rich and want to Kill everything in sight and pay $30 every other month to do so, I guess you can. But for the average player, a real world financial penalty for killing usually will deter constant, meaningless ganking or at least that is the plan.
We keep hearing it is a crime, that is pretty obvious, but if you DONT get caught what happens? Is the spirit loss immediate or do you need to actually be convicted? Seems to me it would have to rely on a conviction because then it would start to be a double penalty. So if thats the case guys could kill for months and never lose anything as long as they dont get caught. But it works the same way for them I would hope as in theyre offline and they get found and then turned in offline.
But either way I dont think the penalties are going to scare people from going on offline killing sprees. Even if they get 'only' 3 months thats still 10 bucks per month (less if they buy now for 25), and maybe even free depending on how you can get them in game.
I know they also claim skill loss but they also have that in life is feudal and it inst nearly enough to slow people down even after a few dozen kills and skill gain is not all that hard, which I would assume this game would be similar.
Where do they get their supplies for 3 months?
When their base is burned to the ground, who funds their pillaging? Who replaces their gear?
What do they have after 3 months to give their children when everything they've stolen has been stolen back by the armies that crushed them?
An alt or accomplice that they trust who doesn't do murder sprees can easily keep them in gear and food or whatnot.
That answers how its transported, not how its paid for.
They need to commit time and resources into building "normal" lives, through civilized means of trading or crafting, something above the board to keep their "blue" alt financed so that they can in-turn finance their "red" character.
This requires actual time and effort all on its own. And by doing that, they are no longer just griefers, they are playing the game.
Eh I thought that would be obvious, if they're killing people via coup de gras I am sure they are looting them too etc. Like you all been saying stuff can be taken or stolen can't it.
You can't have it both ways and say well it's not p2w because it can be taken from you in game but then say killing isn't viable because it will be so very onerous to do.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Comments
But Salem made mistakes that CoE has solved:
-Salem was all-or-nothing permadeath. If you were defeated in combat once, you could be murdered and lose everything immediately. CoE has graduated permadeath over time.
-Salem had no inheritance system. In CoE, you can still theoretically lose an entire town, but those are rare, game-world changing events, and inheritance will mitigate your personal loss of resources as a player
-Salem had no headstart - Boston was the only safezone and players did not run it. CoE is providing a headstart to seed the world with an installed king and kingdom, and a civilization that will provide an anchor for stability against the chaos Salem devolved into.
-Salem had no soul system: You spent weeks grinding through EVE-like timers on skills, and if you died, all your progress was gone. In CoE, skill ramps facilitate a return to what you had
-Salem had no spirit-loss for crime: If you murdered someone, and no one got around to tracking your clues down and bringing you to justice, it was as if you never murdered anyone. In CoE, you will carry the potential spirit-loss of a murderer even if you aren't found, and when you eventually get ganked, you will suffer a heavier loss of game time for your crimes.
-Salem PVP was heavily stat/grind based: You jacked yourself up on foods that permanently boosted your stats until you were a tireless God that no new player could ever hope to kill. In CoE, player skill matters more than stats, and a good player in a new character will beat a bad player in a seasoned character.
This bolded part here makes me think you don't understand a lot about this game besides "permadeath".
No one single random occurrence will ever cause a player more than a single loss of spirit or game time. The worst that will happen is they ganked once and their character ends up hanging out in the astral plane until they log back in.
1)CoE developers have already stated if they play it will be under the same conditions as players. ( now I know we have no proof of this yet...)
2) Perma death sounds alot different on Salem
3) No cash shop will be on CoE
4) Punishment for random ganking on CoE
5) no just no the games are not similar in the slightest. The only things close are the perma deaths and even they are different.
So again please keep the games you want to compare relative to the game.
That's the sort of game this is. It's not for everyone, but bashing it because you haven't bothered to read up on the details is...well, I'll leave that for others to say.
It's all the same whether you gank people or not.
So your character stays in when you log, big deal. Someone comes and kills you, you go do the same to them.
The thing to remember is that PKers organize. They live for the kill, and love tactics.
So it'll all boil down to them vs. the rest. And since they are organized as well as possible exactly for "the win", while other players won't be as dedicated to just that "win", they will usually overcome opponents in the short run, and always in the long run.
These games never change. They are all the same in this. They want to foster PvP and never want to really give out punishment to rampant PKers because those "PvPers" are the players they are making the game for.
Don't get me wrong. I understand the game world they want. But stop this nonsense that the game will be enjoyable for players that aren't all out PvPers intending eternal war and constant bushwhacking.
Once upon a time....
There is punishments for ganking.
I've been reading and I'm not seeing any.
What are they?
(Besides empty promises.)
Once upon a time....
Murdering someone (CDG) is a much heavier crime, and you will suffer more potential spirit loss on your next death than that suffered by the player you murdered. A kingdom could additionally sentence you with a much higher spirit loss for that crime than just knocking them out.
I started this thread specifically looking for that sort of thing. No one has pointed this out but instead has shown proof that there is no additional Spirit loss due to bad karma or anything of the nature.
I've read their site over looking for this too, but haven't found anything on it. But I'm aware that maybe I just missed it, so I asked.
But all I see are assumptions, basically, from what I can tell.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected.
I don't want empty promises though. They usually come from statements made vaguely enough that people start making assumptions. I'd like to see a direct spelling out of how it works. Not just, "you'll pay for that" sort of comments.
Once upon a time....
Then when the developers made the optional free for all grief mode and servers had them these guys would all try and get on those servers and just destroy anything and everything they could.
People completely underestimate the hard core people who just live to ruin games for people. After the first whatever weeks of this game and it becomes free for all you will see it and it wont be pretty. But by then it will be too late and the usual excuses and reasons will pour in from these gys about how its too late to change now(which will be then). Thats why guys that actually want to see a game that is playable are being critical now.
LiF used to have maybe 20-30K people playing it, it was a game people could get behind it had it all, but once they realized the safeguards were just not there it crashed, I doubt more than 1500 people play in now on a regular basis. Thats quite a drop in 4 or 5 months.
Like I said these guys have PLENTY of cautionary tales to look at and rethink their mechanics, if they dont then its no ones fault but their own when the game crashes and burns. Which means it will just be added to the list of good games with plenty of nice ideas that suffered from developer stupidity or shortsightedness.
I can't paste the link off my phone but if you go to the coe forums and in genealogy discussions there is the q&a's transcripts.
Not sure which one it is though sorry.
Why don't they put it in writing on their site?
All I see is:
- Q. Griefers. Tell me you've at least eliminated the griefers!
- Actually, more or less. In
Chronicles of Elyria, crimes such as attacking other characters is
punishable by time in prison. The more time someone spends in prison,
the shorter their playable lifespan, the more their skills atrophy, and
the less powerful they will ultimately become. So, we've kind of removed
most the incentive around griefing.
I once posted a question about that prison business.http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/441057/so-about-jail#latest
And now it seems they have done away with prison, I guess.
I've seen all this before in all (every one of them) PvP Sandbox MMO's.
They clearly leave the whole thing about "Justice" undefined. That shows they really aren't into defining it.
One of the biggest reasons gamers don't play Sandbox games (if not THE biggest), and they can't give it enough time to explain a working system.
Because that's not what they are going to do. The rest is just double talk.
Once upon a time....
BW: "Zynlli’s final question “Will spirit loss be limited during certain activities to ensure that they remain, such as fighting in an arena? or will bloodsport severely damage the spirit of that player when they lose?”
Caspian: So fighting in an arena there are no coup de gras, so if you’re actually in an arena it’s just incapacitation. No spirit loss what-so-ever, similar to dueling, in those cases you’re not actually trying to kill someone, it’s just there for sport and entertainment. So it’s just player versus player and it’s just sport, so in those cases it’s not necessarily to actually kill someone in order to prove your dominance."
The implication here is that simply by virtue of murdering someone, you suffer potential spirit loss (but if all you do is knock them out, you will not). This attaches a real-world consequence to murdering, and trying to grief through mass-murder will become extremely risky.
I'd like to see some details of how this works.
What's to keep griefers from making nightly runs on other players, killing them while they are in AI mode, looting them for whatever they can, and doing whatever mischief they can do too?
What, other players are going to kill them more than they can kill those players?
Once upon a time....
It might just be a matter of knob-turning with spirit loss being "x amount" heavier for murderers upon their death, compared to spirit loss of the victims murdered. As such, we won't know the exact details you want until alpha or beta starts and we really start to play out those scenarios.
I can tell you that griefers who get tracked back to their base won't have a base for very long; if they've upset enough nations with standing armies these griefers wont have anything for their children to inherit once these armies are through with them.
But either way I dont think the penalties are going to scare people from going on offline killing sprees. Even if they get 'only' 3 months thats still 10 bucks per month (less if they buy now for 25), and maybe even free depending on how you can get them in game.
I know they also claim skill loss but they also have that in life is feudal and it inst nearly enough to slow people down even after a few dozen kills and skill gain is not all that hard, which I would assume this game would be similar.
When their base is burned to the ground, who funds their pillaging? Who replaces their gear?
What do they have after 3 months to give their children when everything they've stolen has been stolen back by the armies that crushed them?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
They need to commit time and resources into building "normal" lives, through civilized means of trading or crafting, something above the board to keep their "blue" alt financed so that they can in-turn finance their "red" character.
This requires actual time and effort all on its own. And by doing that, they are no longer just griefers, they are playing the game.
We don't know, SBS doesn't know. The answers wont be final until testing is done.
Right now SBS is working off of suppose we does and/or wouldn't it be cool ifsies.
You can't have it both ways and say well it's not p2w because it can be taken from you in game but then say killing isn't viable because it will be so very onerous to do.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.