Lol. He isn't harassing you, he makes a lot of good points that you happen to disagree with and do not like. Big difference.
Got to have a much thicker skin if you want to play in this playground.
Read my later post. It steps through one of his posts regarding how irrelevant his points were.
Afterwards you'll understand that not a single valid point was raised that actually manages to disagree with what I've posted.
Then repeat that for every post he makes replying to me (which is a lot, and I'm certainly the person he replies to most) and you start to understand that it actually is harassment. He's not posting because he has valid points to make, or because I've said things which are actually wrong. He's posting to harass.
I apologize if this damages your ego, but anyone that clicks into my comments can see that I respond to a lot of different people, and if you were to count it up I think there are more replies addressed to Nariu than to you at the moment. Only reason we have a current rash of responses to you is because of this right here with you trying so hard to excuse you and your claims from the scrutiny of fact (which is inevitable when you're also this prolific in a thread).
I respond quoting you or another when there is a clear response or correction to be made. Don't spread misinformation, false arguments, or ask questions (basically don't initiate a conversation) if you don't want, well, a conversation.
Everyone can see in my last response too where I took apart how you were trying your hardest to cherry pick and dodge the quite valid points made using actual statistics and reputable sources by trying to dig really hard into nothing to look for an excuse to dismiss it all. Your argument, from the evidence I shared, was simply wrong. It's a very human thing to be wrong so you shouldn't be so wound up about it.
And again, the relevancy of my topics (which were all about the trends in F2P and the nature of the marketplace) directly addresses your claims as well as the OP (which was about the trends in F2P and the marketplace).
So once again, do not mistake your ego for ironclad truth.
Let's put my unedited comment back into the conversation:
What's the percentage of children in those millions? Children love to play games and free fits right in with their budget.
For me... There are two camps when it comes to the F2P, those companies that are responsible and ethical and those that are not.
Many of these games target addiction and I equate some to the pusher giving a prospective customer there first few hits of crack.
Like every single mobile game Careful using the word addiction, though. I did a report back in college on video game addiction and how it's not a real thing. I still don't think, to this day, they have proven video game addiction as a thing. There have been proposals made, but nothing officially accepted as a mental disorder.
Video games are just like the Internet, food, tv, movies. We've become so compulsive as a society and that has made it seem like there is an addiction to everything. On top of that, people now claim to be "...so OCD about X..." which is hysterical. No, there is no physical addiction which stems from the use of video games.
You are right, though, game developers do play on our compulsions. They do reward us for logging in on a daily basis. That's no more an addiction than me giving my dog a cookie for doing something well. So some of us are just good little doggies (me included). That being said I can, and have, stopped playing games a number of times without adverse affect.
However, this isn't exclusive to F2P games. Sub games are doing the same thing now. Even B2P games. Even single player games do it. Think about season passes. Think about pre-order DLC. Think about Collector's Editions. This is all stuff that's designed to play on our emotions. "If I don't pre-order this now, then I'm not going to get that cool gear at launch!" In reality, you might buy the game 6 months after launch and find that you still get that same DLC anyway. Other times, maybe not. However, it preys on our need to belong. It plays on our sense of exclusivity. If we get this thing right now, then nobody else will have it! In the end, marketing does seek to influence us, and some might leverage that more than others, but it's not the system that's broken, it's humans who are broken.
Phry said:
So while its technically possible to play these F2P games without paying anything, its realistically impossible to do so without having such a gimped gaming experience that its not worth playing in the first place.
....and yet, there are millions of players playing for free and vast majority of F2P playerbase consist of players spending nothing.
Zet, "not worth playing in the first place", right...?
But hey, who gives a damn about making sense on these boards...
Do I have to remind you millions of people voted for Nazis?
Do I have to remind you billions of people vote to breathe air every day! Earlier when I mentioned a lack of critical thinking in gamer arguments this is exactly what I was talking about.
what are you guys talking about? I thought this thread was about something else, my bad
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
CrazKanuk said:
However, it preys on our need to belong.
That is a problem with this kind of thinking and pseudo-sciences in general - no matter why people do something, you will always say "it prays on it".
Hey, I never said it was a problem. Nom away. All I was saying is that video game addiction is not real. As far as marketing goes, I would only ever expect that someone being paid to sell something to me would identify with my wants and needs.
Phry said:
So while its technically possible to play these F2P games without paying anything, its realistically impossible to do so without having such a gimped gaming experience that its not worth playing in the first place.
....and yet, there are millions of players playing for free and vast majority of F2P playerbase consist of players spending nothing.
Zet, "not worth playing in the first place", right...?
But hey, who gives a damn about making sense on these boards...
Do I have to remind you millions of people voted for Nazis?
Do I have to remind you billions of people vote to breathe air every day! Earlier when I mentioned a lack of critical thinking in gamer arguments this is exactly what I was talking about.
what are you guys talking about? I thought this thread was about something else, my bad
He tried to use a relevance fallacy to distract from the actual point without addressing. I pointed out, with an equally ridiculous relevance fallacy, that his point is irrelevant. I also referenced a previous post in this thread where I pointed out that gamers push their own biased agenda without facts and no critical thinking. That is instead of using actual logic and reason to derive a conclusion they jump to a conclusion and then pick out parts in the argument that suits their agenda.
TL;DR - He said something absurd and irrelevant and I called him on it.
would that be participating in an derailment?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
CrazKanuk said: but it's not the system that's broken, it's humans who are broken.
Harder to cure all humanity of mental compunctions than it is to establish ethical business practices.
nah .. business practices are a reflection of the said mental compunctions. And why is it even necessary in a free market? It is not like you are forced to play any games and forced to buy stuff from a cash shop.
Let's put my unedited comment back into the conversation:
What's the percentage of children in those millions? Children love to play games and free fits right in with their budget.
For me... There are two camps when it comes to the F2P, those companies that are responsible and ethical and those that are not.
Many of these games target addiction and I equate some to the pusher giving a prospective customer there first few hits of crack.
Like every single mobile game Careful using the word addiction, though. I did a report back in college on video game addiction and how it's not a real thing. I still don't think, to this day, they have proven video game addiction as a thing. There have been proposals made, but nothing officially accepted as a mental disorder.
Video games are just like the Internet, food, tv, movies. We've become so compulsive as a society and that has made it seem like there is an addiction to everything. On top of that, people now claim to be "...so OCD about X..." which is hysterical. No, there is no physical addiction which stems from the use of video games.
You are right, though, game developers do play on our compulsions. They do reward us for logging in on a daily basis. That's no more an addiction than me giving my dog a cookie for doing something well. So some of us are just good little doggies (me included). That being said I can, and have, stopped playing games a number of times without adverse affect.
However, this isn't exclusive to F2P games. Sub games are doing the same thing now. Even B2P games. Even single player games do it. Think about season passes. Think about pre-order DLC. Think about Collector's Editions. This is all stuff that's designed to play on our emotions. "If I don't pre-order this now, then I'm not going to get that cool gear at launch!" In reality, you might buy the game 6 months after launch and find that you still get that same DLC anyway. Other times, maybe not. However, it preys on our need to belong. It plays on our sense of exclusivity. If we get this thing right now, then nobody else will have it! In the end, marketing does seek to influence us, and some might leverage that more than others, but it's not the system that's broken, it's humans who are broken.
CrazKanuk said:
However, it preys on our need to belong.
That is a problem with this kind of thinking and pseudo-sciences in general - no matter why people do something, you will always say "it prays on it".
Hey, I never said it was a problem. Nom away. All I was saying is that video game addiction is not real. As far as marketing goes, I would only ever expect that someone being paid to sell something to me would identify with my wants and needs.
Can we agree that gambling is addictive?
You can't just isolate video games in and of themselves. Many of these games include systems like gambling.
Let's not kid ourselves, there is a lot of psychology invested into many of these games. The difference is the companies that are ethical and the ones that are not.
basically.. exterior things are not addictive, some people have additive personalities and for reasons that are not their fault and those people will become addictive to just about anything that gives them an escape
(aka NOTHING is addictive.)
but I want to be careful about getting off topic
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
basically.. exterior things are not addictive, some people have additive personalities and for reasons that are not their fault and those people will become addictive to just about anything that gives them an escape
CrazKanuk said: but it's not the system that's broken, it's humans who are broken.
Harder to cure all humanity of mental compunctions than it is to establish ethical business practices.
nah .. business practices are a reflection of the said mental compunctions. And why is it even necessary in a free market? It is not like you are forced to play any games and forced to buy stuff from a cash shop.
Like I've said previously, there are reasonable as well as unreasonable ways to monetize a game.
Just because people are susceptible to certain prompts you egg out of them does not free us from the moral responsibility of treating others with some semblance of fairness and dignity.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Just because people are susceptible to certain prompts you egg out of them does not free us from the moral responsibility of treating others with some semblance of fairness and dignity.
So now you want to play PC game police? No one is forced to play a video game. Is there a "moral responsibility" to stop others from enjoying what you do not? lol.
Just because people are susceptible to certain prompts you egg out of them does not free us from the moral responsibility of treating others with some semblance of fairness and dignity.
So now you want to play PC game police? No one is forced to play a video game. Is there a "moral responsibility" to stop others from enjoying what you do not? lol.
That question is entirely unrelated to the point made.
No one is saying to stop producing any given game, the statement is that there is a responsible way to handle your monetization strategies and exploiting the failures of the human psyche is a pretty damn grey zone.
As with the link I've shared before (and you removed from the quote) points out, there is a spectrum to how monetization of even F2P can be handled. Just because one strategy makes more money doesn't make it suddenly less morally reprehensible.
There are perfectly ethical means to selling an F2P title.
As for your quip about enjoying things. As stated this was not about gameplay or mechanics that players enjoy. This is about the mechanics by which players pay. If you're meaning to say you enjoy extortion, well...that's just not right.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
No one is saying to stop producing any given game, the statement is that there is a responsible way to handle your monetization strategies and exploiting the failures of the human psyche is a pretty damn grey zone.
As for your quip about enjoying things. As stated this was not about gameplay or mechanics that players enjoy. This is about the mechanics by which players pay. If you're meaning to say you enjoy extortion, well...that's just not right.
There is no extortion. Any player is free to stop playing any game at any time. Unless you have proof that there is coersion, or scientifically proven addiction, there is no moral obligation anywhere.
Devs are free to sell their virtual goods anyway they want. We are free to not buy any. The fact that you and I don't buy cash shop stuff (you didn't right?) is proof that there is freedom of choice.
Now, some monetization scheme is certainly unpopular, and i do not like them. So I don't spend a dime. What is the problem? In fact, didn't data show that most players don't even spend money? So clearly there is no problem for them.
Gonna stop you right there. People are "free" to do many things. Extortion doesn't work by forcing people physically to do things (in most cases), it's done by picking at any possible weakness and angle is available in the human psyche or setting up situations that triggers reflexive and impulsive responses bypassing any reasoning.
Please don't try that irrational argument again.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Gonna stop you right there. People are "free" to do many things. Extortion doesn't work by forcing people physically to do things (in most cases), it's done by picking at any possible weakness and angle is available in the human psyche or setting up situations that triggers reflexive and impulsive responses bypassing any reasoning.
Please don't try that irrational argument again.
Oh, he will. Over and over again.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Comments
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Like every single mobile game
Video games are just like the Internet, food, tv, movies. We've become so compulsive as a society and that has made it seem like there is an addiction to everything. On top of that, people now claim to be "...so OCD about X..." which is hysterical. No, there is no physical addiction which stems from the use of video games.
You are right, though, game developers do play on our compulsions. They do reward us for logging in on a daily basis. That's no more an addiction than me giving my dog a cookie for doing something well. So some of us are just good little doggies (me included). That being said I can, and have, stopped playing games a number of times without adverse affect.
However, this isn't exclusive to F2P games. Sub games are doing the same thing now. Even B2P games. Even single player games do it. Think about season passes. Think about pre-order DLC. Think about Collector's Editions. This is all stuff that's designed to play on our emotions. "If I don't pre-order this now, then I'm not going to get that cool gear at launch!" In reality, you might buy the game 6 months after launch and find that you still get that same DLC anyway. Other times, maybe not. However, it preys on our need to belong. It plays on our sense of exclusivity. If we get this thing right now, then nobody else will have it! In the end, marketing does seek to influence us, and some might leverage that more than others, but it's not the system that's broken, it's humans who are broken.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I'm not entirely convinced of that
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You can't just isolate video games in and of themselves. Many of these games include systems like gambling.
Let's not kid ourselves, there is a lot of psychology invested into many of these games. The difference is the companies that are ethical and the ones that are not.
Slime Balls are pretty common these days.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I did not read this book but I listened to a very long interview and I agree with him
http://www.amazon.com/Realm-Hungry-Ghosts-Encounters-Addiction/dp/155643880X
basically..
exterior things are not addictive, some people have additive personalities and for reasons that are not their fault and those people will become addictive to just about anything that gives them an escape
(aka NOTHING is addictive.)
but I want to be careful about getting off topic
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Just because people are susceptible to certain prompts you egg out of them does not free us from the moral responsibility of treating others with some semblance of fairness and dignity.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
So now you want to play PC game police? No one is forced to play a video game. Is there a "moral responsibility" to stop others from enjoying what you do not? lol.
No one is saying to stop producing any given game, the statement is that there is a responsible way to handle your monetization strategies and exploiting the failures of the human psyche is a pretty damn grey zone.
As with the link I've shared before (and you removed from the quote) points out, there is a spectrum to how monetization of even F2P can be handled. Just because one strategy makes more money doesn't make it suddenly less morally reprehensible.
There are perfectly ethical means to selling an F2P title.
As for your quip about enjoying things. As stated this was not about gameplay or mechanics that players enjoy. This is about the mechanics by which players pay. If you're meaning to say you enjoy extortion, well...that's just not right.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Devs are free to sell their virtual goods anyway they want. We are free to not buy any. The fact that you and I don't buy cash shop stuff (you didn't right?) is proof that there is freedom of choice.
Now, some monetization scheme is certainly unpopular, and i do not like them. So I don't spend a dime. What is the problem? In fact, didn't data show that most players don't even spend money? So clearly there is no problem for them.
Please don't try that irrational argument again.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin